Impact Driving of Very Old Floor Nails

[GraemeCook]

Good Morning Everyone

A friend has proposed a novel solution to a problem and I am wondering if anyone else has tried it. I do not wish to risk damaging very old floors.


Background

My house is over 130 years old with messmate floors (Eucalyptus Obliqua) and Tas blue gum floor joists (E Globulus). With over a century of drying the timbers are extremely hard - I cannot drive a nail into the joists and if I drill the joists the bit basically burns its way through.


The Problem

I want to sand and polish my family room floor. First I must drive some of the floor nails so that they are below the level of the sander, and then bog the holes.

When I did my kitchen I made a punch from tool steel and welded it to a bit of flat iron (to save fingers) and then used a short handled sledge hammer to punch the nails. It was very heavy going - five or six whacks on each nail!

And my family room is three times the size of the kitchen, and many more nails to be punched.


The Solution ???

A friend has proposed that I should use an impact driver on those recalcitrant nails, rather than a hammer and punch. Is this likely to work or am I likely to damage the floor?

These are fairly large hand made nails that have been well imbedded in the floor for 130+ years.

Has anyone any experience with this? Or is there a better option?




Thank you

Graeme

[chambezio]

I would go the route you did for the kitchen.
A LARGE nail punch and the sledge type hammer.
Because it is so hard the bigger the hit the better result. Small Punch light hammer....not gunna cut the mustard

What about large punch held the way a blacksmith would hold his cold chisel.
You would need another person to hold the punch while you concentrate on hitting the punch squarely. Short, sharp force to punch the nail in

Never tried impact driver, may not punch may just skid on top

[ian]

the way you did your kitchen (or new carpet :) ) is the way to go

the short handled sledgy is properly called a lump hammer

[Gabriel]

Same as the two above, punch them as you did the kitchen.

Make a game of it - See how many you can punch in the first hour, then try and beat it in the second


Or maybe just do 5 nails a night for a time, then it wont feel so daunting, and your neighbors wont complain about the constant banging.

Good luck!

Make sure you show us a picture of the final refinished floor, something that old surely will be magnificent!

[Kuffy]

Sledgy and a punch is the way to go. Since u need to hit them with alot of force, I would knock up a jig using a bit of steel tube thru a block of timber. Center the jig over the nail, insert the punch, and then smack the punch to the next world. Since the punch is supported and held vertical, and your hands are clear, there should be no worrys about hitting it really hard.

[orraloon]

I think you can overdo things with a sledge. I would first try with something like a 32oz or 40oz ball peen hammer and a good nail punch of course. I say this because the hammer has a proper handle unlike those club or small sledge hammers. You can swing it like a hammer and not a club. It is more about a few sharp raps rather than brute weight. By all means make something to hold the punch and save the hands. I have done a few floors with seasoned eucalypt joists (but not as old as that) just using a 20oz claw hammer. A good nail punch has a hollow in the tip so it does not slip off the nail head and should do a better job than something home made. I guess if you have to go bigger then so be it but try something mederate first.
Regards
John

[son_of_bluegras]

I think if it was me, I'd fashion a slide hammer with a punch on the end. More control and easier to use.

ron

[GraemeCook]

the way you did your kitchen (or new carpet :) ) is the way to go

the short handled sledgy is properly called a lump hammer



Thanks everyone for confirming that a lump hammer and punch is the way to go. My rough estimate is that there are 924 nails that need whacking!

My mate who suggested the impact drill is a mechanical engineer and usually right on such matters but he just accepts collateral damage as part of the process. "That's what you have sanders for...." He was very insistant that the impact drill would act like a "miniature pile driver and the nails will just glide in....." - his words. Might try the impact drill on an inconspicuous corner of the basement - it might actually work.

I feel an aching arm coming on ..........



Fair Winds

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

I think you can overdo things with a sledge. I would first try with something like a 32oz or 40oz ball peen hammer and a good nail punch of course. I say this because the hammer has a proper handle unlike those club or small sledge hammers. You can swing it like a hammer and not a club. It is more about a few sharp raps rather than brute weight. By all means make something to hold the punch and save the hands. I have done a few floors with seasoned eucalypt joists (but not as old as that) just using a 20oz claw hammer. A good nail punch has a hollow in the tip so it does not slip off the nail head and should do a better job than something home made. I guess if you have to go bigger then so be it but try something mederate first.
Regards
John

I tried a 20oz peen and a 24oz claw hammer on the kitchen floor and they literally bounced off. Also got a few dents when I tried to hit too hard and missed. Then I switched to the lump hammer which does have a shaped handle, albeit quite short - about 175mm. Wasn't game to try a long handled sledge.

The joists are Tas blue gum which is much harder than Sydney blue gum and with a hardness janka around 12 under normal drying is getting up towards the hardness of the ironbarks. It is seriously tough stuff.

My very short punch does have a concave tip, and is far better made than chinese junk from Bigchains.

Thanks


Graeme

[GraemeCook]

I think if it was me, I'd fashion a slide hammer with a punch on the end. More control and easier to use.

ron


Thanks, Ron. I think we have a trans-Pacific language issue.

What do you mean by a slide hammer with a punch on the end ?



Fair Winds

Graeme

[BobL]

Can your impact driver be set for a single punch?

If not I can see in my mind a heap of little dimples in the floor scattered around each nail head.

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Graeme

I've just punched out about 3000 nails from cypress flooring on 60 year old hardwood joists with a Nail Kicker:
http://nailkicker.com/

It's a magnificent thing and there are different size heads for it (you can order it with any size you like and get other sizes as extras). Now the thing is that it has three settings for depth: about 3mm below surface (which is what you want, about 9mm below, and 19mm which is really for blowing the nail out of the timber. Even though I was blowing nails out I did test it for punching 3mm below and it was perfect for the task.

They are not cheap, and freight to Oz was about $70 IIRC, but that will get the job done in no time.

There is one available from Melbourne, but I didn't feel that it looked as good:
http://www.addemsairtools.com.au/spec-tools/aat-power-punch-super-duty-pneumatic-nail-punch-countersinker/

HTH
Brett

[FenceFurniture]

By the way, if you don't want to spend that much in the long run I reckon you could use it for your job and then sell it on the forum pretty easily. It's a kick- bit of kit. If you were going to do that then it would be advisable to get the head you will need plus the one for standard nails which I think is 5mm (I can check).

[wood spirit]

haven't tried but have a thought about framing sized nail guns- (if you can borrow one) used empty-depth of drive can be adjusted. Have seen punch totally through 9mm ply with flat head nails.-Just a thought-ask someone who uses one. If you cant get use of for free/slab then big hammer & punch will get you there.

[pmcgee]

Those pneumatic "chisellers" are very cheap ... maybe you could convert a standard bit ... ?

But like BobL mentioned ... also an issue in controlling multiple strikes ...

For two people ... a modified cold-chisel maybe ... lots of weight, big target ... ???

Cheers,
Paul

[son_of_bluegras]

Thanks, Ron. I think we have a trans-Pacific language issue.

What do you mean by a slide hammer with a punch on the end ?



Fair Winds

Graeme

A standard slide hammer is a weight (the hammer) on a section of round rod. The ones I've used were specific for driving (and removing) electrical grounding (earthing?) rod and would screw onto a section of the grounding rod, which was then hammered in and another section was screwed on until the correct depth was driven. They are also used in auto repair and a quick search yielded http://www.harborfreight.com/15-piece-slide-hammer-and-puller-set-5469.html which is an auto repair version from a store known for low quality (you probably have something similar there filled with use-once-then-toss tools).
With a weight that would slide on a rod, it would be simple enough to shape the end into a punch and fashion an appropriate stop for the hammer to drive against. This would allow for a several pound hammer to drive the nails very accurately.

Does this clear things up?

ron

[GraemeCook]

Can your impact driver be set for a single punch?

If not I can see in my mind a heap of little dimples in the floor scattered around each nail head.


No, it cannot deliver a single punch, and I think a single punch would be too feable to be of any use.

Baz's argument was that modern pile drivers deliver lots of little blows as does an impact driver, and these little blows cumulatively would make the nails "glide in". He said modern pile drivers give much more precision than the old style thumpers.

My fear was as expressed by yourself - control - keeping the punch on the nail head - not leave lots of little dimples, or worse.


Fair Winds

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

A standard slide hammer is a weight (the hammer) on a section of round rod. The ones I've used were specific for driving (and removing) electrical grounding (earthing?) rod and would screw onto a section of the grounding rod, which was then hammered in and another section was screwed on until the correct depth was driven. They are also used in auto repair and a quick search yielded http://www.harborfreight.com/15-piece-slide-hammer-and-puller-set-5469.html which is an auto repair version from a store known for low quality (you probably have something similar there filled with use-once-then-toss tools).
With a weight that would slide on a rod, it would be simple enough to shape the end into a punch and fashion an appropriate stop for the hammer to drive against. This would allow for a several pound hammer to drive the nails very accurately.

Does this clear things up?

ron


Thanks Ron.

Have used something like that in reverse for driving star-picket fence posts - weighted tube with handles that fits over the post and you whack them into the ground - quite precise - fences must be strait.


Fair Winds

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

Hi Graeme

I've just punched out about 3000 nails from cypress flooring on 60 year old hardwood joists with a Nail Kicker:
http://nailkicker.com/

It's a magnificent thing and there are different size heads for it (you can order it with any size you like and get other sizes as extras). Now the thing is that it has three settings for depth: about 3mm below surface (which is what you want, about 9mm below, and 19mm which is really for blowing the nail out of the timber. Even though I was blowing nails out I did test it for punching 3mm below and it was perfect for the task.

They are not cheap, and freight to Oz was about $70 IIRC, but that will get the job done in no time.

There is one available from Melbourne, but I didn't feel that it looked as good:
http://www.addemsairtools.com.au/spec-tools/aat-power-punch-super-duty-pneumatic-nail-punch-countersinker/

HTH
Brett


Good Morning Brett

From their video and your enthusiasm it looks exactly what I am looking for.

The Tas blue gum joists that I will be driving into are a lot harder than your cypress and the white? pine in the video. How do you think it would hadle that?


Fair Winds

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

Thanks Paul and WoodSpirit.

That control of collateral damage really is a key issue. When finishe I want the floor to look like it is 100 years old and well maintained. I do not want to sand back so heavily that it looks like a new floor. If you get my drift.

Thanks for all suggestions.


Fair Winds

Graeme

[ian]

Hi Greame

perhaps you should have a GTG and invite Brett and his pneumatic nail punch

[FenceFurniture]

The Tas blue gum joists that I will be driving into are a lot harder than your cypress and the white? pine in the video. How do you think it would hadle that?Maaaaaaaate, the splitty Cypress is soft enough, you're right. The "Norf Coast Hardwood" joists, however, would make your Bluegum look cheese-like (if it's similar to what we call Bluegum up here).

I did my mammoth two week task right at the start of two weeks of thunderstorms three times a day. This taught me (right at the start most fortunately) that of the nail/joint is wet it will sink/pull out much easier. It also severely mitigated the splitting and breakout in the cypress boards. In other words, if you encounter some resistance or it's not working cleanly, then a tiny spray of water around the nail head left to sink in for 5 minutes will vastly improve things.

If I was in your shoes, and know what I do now about the nail kicker? Hands down the first thing i would use.

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Greame

perhaps you should have a GTG and invite Brett and his pneumatic nail punchHe'd have to spring it for some air fair too, not just fair air. :;

[GraemeCook]

Maaaaaaaate, the splitty Cypress is soft enough, you're right. The "Norf Coast Hardwood" joists, however, would make your Bluegum look cheese-like (if it's similar to what we call Bluegum up here).

I did my mammoth two week task right at the start of two weeks of thunderstorms three times a day. This taught me (right at the start most fortunately) that of the nail/joint is wet it will sink/pull out much easier. It also severely mitigated the splitting and breakout in the cypress boards. In other words, if you encounter some resistance or it's not working cleanly, then a tiny spray of water around the nail head left to sink in for 5 minutes will vastly improve things.

If I was in your shoes, and know what I do now about the nail kicker? Hands down the first thing i would use.


Thanks again, Brett.

On the hardness issue I will just quote the relative hardnesses from Bootle :

White cypress - Callitris glauca - Yanka 6.5
Sydney blue gum - Eucalyptus saligna - Yanka 9.0
Tasmanian blue gum - Eucalyptus globulus - Yanka 12.0

Although I cannot prove it, I suspect my joists are even harder than Bootle's tested sample - they are certainly harder than other bush grown TBG that I have used and a lot harder than plantation TBG.

I will experiment with a bit of water on the nails to see if it loosens the timber at all. However, I suspect that the timber is now too old and too hard for the water to penetrate far enough to make much difference.

Fair Winds

Graeme

[pmcgee]

Wouldn't water possibly expand fibres? What about WD40 or a pentrating oil? Is staining an issue?

[FenceFurniture]

White cypress - Callitris glauca - Yanka 6.5
Sydney blue gum - Eucalyptus saligna - Yanka 9.0
Tasmanian blue gum - Eucalyptus globulus - Yanka 12.0Yes, just goes to show how accurate and indicative common names can't be. No doubt with age they have hardened up some more.

How long do you think the nails might be? That will also have a bearing on how easy to drive in, or not. If they are around 2-2½", as I suspect they would be, then I'd be very surprised if the nail kicker won't drop them down the required 3mm. It may perhaps take 2-3 triggerings for some of them.

[FenceFurniture]

Wouldn't water possibly expand fibres? What about WD40 or a pentrating oil? Is staining an issue?Paul, it's just there for long enough to get around the nail body as much as it can, and if the fibres were going to expand then any liquid will do that I should think. I'd say it made it around 30% easier to remove the cypress boards from the joists (sometimes the nails were left in the joists, and v.v.). The really important factor for me was that it reduced splitting and punch out very significantly (not an issue for Graeme)

[GraemeCook]

Wouldn't water possibly expand fibres? What about WD40 or a pentrating oil? Is staining an issue?


Good Morning Paul

Staining is very much an issue with what will become polished floor boards. Brett says water was 30% effective on cypress; it might just assist on very hard TBG. No harm in testing.


Fair Winds

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

..... How long do you think the nails might be? That will also have a bearing on how easy to drive in, or not. If they are around 2-2½", as I suspect they would be, then I'd be very surprised if the nail kicker won't drop them down the required 3mm. It may perhaps take 2-3 triggerings for some of them.


Good Morning Again Brett

No idea how long the nails are and extracting one to have a look would be difficult and probably cause damage to that plank. Judging by the size of the visible nail heads, I suspect that they may be longer than 2.5 inches. The nailheads are rectangular approximately 7 x 4.5 mm, although they do vary by perhaps 0.5 mm, probably indicating hand-made nails.

Anyone know what the trade norm for floor nails was in the 1880's?

[FenceFurniture]

Brett says water was 30% effective on cypress; it might just assist on very hard TBG. No harm in testing.And also just as effective on the nasty hardwood joists.