Wenzloff dovetail saw rehab and upgrade.

[rob streeper]

Over a year ago I picked up this Wenzloff dovetail saw on eBay. It was sold as 'used' with a note that it had some cosmetic issues. On first using the saw I found that it really, really needed a tune up. The teeth needed jointing and sharpening in the worst way. I put the saw away, using it only as a pattern.

Today I pulled the saw out to give it a rework. The first thing I noted was that the screws were unbelievably tight. I really thought I was going to break them off in removing them. It's clear that the previous owner also had some troubles as the slots of both nuts were burred. A surprising amount of burring was present on the clock-wise faces of the screw slots, obviously somebody had put some effort into tightening them.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339466&stc=1


I finally got the screws out and removed the handle to find that the entire surface of the blade under the handle was covered with a smooth layer of orange rust. Obviously something strange had happened here. Using a fine flap wheel followed by diamond lapping I got the blade looking better, though there was still some pitting and remaining stains.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339474&stc=1


I reassembled the saw, tightened the screws reasonably and found that the handle was now loose on the saw plate. I tried tightening the screws a bit but there was no improvement. Removing the rust and the consequent friction between the handle and the blade had made the saw worse than when I started - the handle now moved about 3/16" of an inch up and down at the top horn.

I pulled the saw apart again and found that the screw shanks measured about 5/32" and the holes in the saw plate measured about 3/16". The slop in the fit-up of the screws combined with the slippery and hard cocobolo (I think) handle allowed the handle to move around far more than I found comfortable.

So rather than consign the saw to a box I decided to make it functional again by adding my stainless steel bushings. The supplied screw shanks were a little smaller than I'd like but I decided to do the retrofit anyway.
The first step was to push the handle onto the plate/back assembly and ensure that the back was fully seated in the slot.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339473&stc=1


I noted immediately that the toe-most screw hole in the handle aligned the best with the corresponding hole in the saw plate. The heel-most hole was way out of alignment, something like 25% of the radius of the hole.

Starting with the toe-most hole and using a #0 tapered spiral flute reamer I slowly opened out the hole in the plate.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339471&stc=1


I then progressively opened the hole using successive reamers 1 through 4 until the bushing was close to fitting. I gradually opened the hole using the #4 reamer by turning it about 1/2 turn, testing the fit of the bushing, and then giving another half turn. Finally I got the first bushing seated in the handle such that the face of the bushing was seated just below the square mortise for the screw.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339463&stc=1


And here's the off-side showing that the bushing stops before intruding into the mortise for the nut.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339462&stc=1


After seating the bushing I put the front screw and nut in place to hold everything steady while I worked on the second screw hole. The alignment of the holes was really poor.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339458&stc=1


Again, using the reamers I re-centered the holes and worked my way up to the #4 reamer.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339461&stc=1


And seated the second bushing.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339460&stc=1


Next I decided to see if I could correct some of the cosmetic defects.

Sanding both sides carefully I was able to remove most of the burrs from the nut slots and cleaned up the fit of the screws and nuts to the handle.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339468&stc=1


I then jointed, filed and set the saw, wiped on some Danish oil finish and gave it a test.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339470&stc=1


Overall I'm pleased with the result. I saved the saw from the creeping rot under the handle and restored it to functionality. Plus, I need never worry about tightening these screws again so in my opinion it's now better than new.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339467&stc=1.

[planemaker]

Very nice work Rob. I personally prefer it when the spine is mortised much lower so it doesn't clash with the profile of the birds mouth. But that's not a fault of your work.

Stewie;

[Simplicity]

Very nice safe there Rob
And a great little write up on how it was all pulled together

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Heavansabove]

I have one of these, but no handle problems... so far

[rob streeper]

Very nice work Rob. I personally prefer it when the spine is mortised much lower so it doesn't clash with the profile of the birds mouth. But that's not a fault of your work.

Stewie;

Hi Stewie,

I agree about the positioning of the back, unfortunately as this saw has a glued-in blade there's not much I can do short of major surgery or an organ transplant to rectify that particular fitting issue.

Rob

[rob streeper]

Yesterday I had decided to just fix up the handle situation and clean up the blade. After posting the above and spending some time looking at the saw I decided that I wanted it to look better, after all it is a $160 dovetail saw and for my money it ought to look at least as good as it performs. Thus I decided to fix the following cosmetic issues.

1) Timing of the medallion - it's a little off.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339570&stc=1


Easily fixed by adjusting the screw bolster mortise.

2) Next, there was a lot of what appears to be glue at the joint of the blade and the back. This saw came in a box with a Lee Valley inventory tag on it so I had a quick look and it appears that the dovetail saw that they have pictured also has a line of glue just below the bottom lip of the back. http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=57113&cat=1,42884,57152
In any event, it had to go - made the saw look dirty. I think it's the glue used to attach the blade to the back because it has a bluish green tinge.

The glue was present at the toe,

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339571&stc=1


On the opposite side at the heel

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339572&stc=1


and in the middle of the blade.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339573&stc=1


3) The handle also had a few bandsaw marks around the houndstooth.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339574&stc=1


4) Unfortunately there's no fixing this.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339589&stc=1


I disassembled the saw and set to work. First I lapped the blade with a 74 micron Diapad and used wet-or-dry with a wedge to get the glue out of the blade-back joint area. Most of it that is.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339575&stc=1


I buffed the blade, screw heads and back with gray compound, shaved the mortise for the medallion screw bolster to straighten it up and used a riffler to clean up the saw marks on the handle.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339576&stc=1


I also stripped the handle of the original Danish oil finish and gave it a wax and shellac treatment.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339577&stc=1



http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339578&stc=1


It's a little bit Elvis-flashy for my taste but at least it's not grungy anymore.

[rob streeper]

I have one of these, but no handle problems... so far

Does yours have makers marks on the spine? The version pictured on the Lee Valley item page doesn't, nor did mine. This one however does:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339644&stc=1


The sellers description indicated that he had purchased this saw from Lee Valley as well, left it in the box and only discovered the stamping when he opened it to make pictures for the eBay sale. I wonder if there are some with and some without stamps that vary on the basis of certain dates. Should be a boon for collectors.

[Heavansabove]

Does yours have makers marks on the spine? The version pictured on the Lee Valley item page doesn't, nor did mine. This one however does:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=339644&stc=1


The sellers description indicated that he had purchased this saw from Lee Valley as well, left it in the box and only discovered the stamping when he opened it to make pictures for the eBay sale. I wonder if there are some with and some without stamps that vary on the basis of certain dates. Should be a boon for collectors.
Rob, mine came from Lee Valley, and is the same as yours, ie medallion but not mark on spine. There is no evidence of glue below back, and the handle has no blemishes. Originally the Wenzloff saws had no medallion. Some years ago Rob Lee lent three Wenzloff demo saws to TTTG for a back saws comparison - the dovetail saw had a medallion, the 11" and 12" saws did not (I guess this was the time that Mike was introducing medallions); rather than me posting the saws back to LV, Rob offered them to me at an attractive price... and so here they stayed.

On aesthetics, I am coming around to the view that we are making saws, not fine furniture, and the odd rasp mark is part of the tool. Ron Bontz is making saws too beautiful to actually use! And Stewie makes beautiful saws as well - are they too fine to actually use? I suspect few purchasers actually uses a Holtey plane.

Cheers
Peter

[rob streeper]

Rob, mine came from Lee Valley, and is the same as yours, ie medallion but not mark on spine. There is no evidence of glue below back, and the handle has no blemishes. Originally the Wenzloff saws had no medallion. Some years ago Rob Lee lent three Wenzloff demo saws to TTTG for a back saws comparison - the dovetail saw had a medallion, the 11" and 12" saws did not (I guess this was the time that Mike was introducing medallions); rather than me posting the saws back to LV, Rob offered them to me at an attractive price... and so here they stayed.

On aesthetics, I am coming around to the view that we are making saws, not fine furniture, and the odd rasp mark is part of the tool. Ron Bontz is making saws too beautiful to actually use! And Stewie makes beautiful saws as well - are they too fine to actually use? I suspect few purchasers actually uses a Holtey plane.

Cheers
Peter

Peter,

I hew to more utilitarian finishes, I think that they are less likely to inhibit use.

I have a number of very nicely finished tools in my collection but I don't consider any of them too pretty to use. I prioritize function over finish but I want at least good finish, not communist-drab.

I think that the act of using a tool, no matter how fine, honors the effort and skill of the maker. Museums are filled with artifacts that are like insects trapped in amber, evocative and beautiful but ultimately only testaments.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. We share different values within our work. I set no time restraints or targets. If it takes me 24 hrs to make a quality backsaw that's fine by me. Most of my saw making work is all done by hand. I set a high value on traditional skills. I also dont treat the proceeds of my tool making sales as any serious source of income. As a result I can remain very competitive with my pricing. I also treat each of my backsaws as a representation of my own individual skills as a saw maker. I do not try and compete with the other major players in the boutique saw market. I am quite happy just making a small number of backsaws a year. I have other hobbies and new skills I would like to spend more time on.

regards Stewie; :2tsup:

[planemaker]

Hi Peter. You can get a set of 3 Veritas backsaws for an extra Au$50.00 compared to cost of 1 of my backsaws. There not pretty to look at IMO but since you are not overly concerned with the aesthetics of a hand saw it may well suit your needs perfectly. I have heard they are quite popular in the USA.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=71884&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. We share different values within our work. I set no time restraints or targets. If it takes me 24 hrs to make a quality backsaw that's fine by me. Most of my saw making work is all done by hand. I set a high value on traditional skills. I also dont treat the proceeds of my tool making sales as any serious source of income. As a result I can remain very competitive with my pricing. I also treat each of my backsaws as a representation of my own individual skills as a saw maker. I do not try and compete with the other major players in the boutique saw market. I am quite happy just making a small number of backsaws a year. I have other hobbies and new skills I would like to spend more time on.

regards Stewie; :2tsup:

I agree Stewie. We are making luxury items and as such a number of important factors apply. First and most important, tastes vary. Who's to argue with taste? Given the number of boutique makers out there right now a buyer can select from a range of finishes and styles. I prefer traditional style and advanced technology and I'm sure some find that perplexing. To each his own.
Second, collectors markets aren't saturable. Does a stamp collector ever consider his or her collection complete? The saw makers operating in the modern era have produced many fine pieces with each maker having a unique style and techniques.
Third, nobody is going to 'dominate' the custom saw market. Lie Nielsen has probably produced and sold more new era saws than anybody else but there is a lot of room for all of us small makers. The idea that we compete for customers is flawed because most saw aficionado's, myself included, have saws from several custom makers and seek saws from a number of makers, not just one.
Finally, I think that people want custom saws, they don't 'need' them in the way that one needs food and water. There are after all cheaper and more efficient ways to cut wood than using a custom handsaw. I really think that there's plenty of room for everybody in this field of endeavor.
Given all of the above, I don't feel myself to be in competition with anybody but myself. I try to make each successive saw I create better than it's predecessor. It may seem strange but I think it's fun. Making saws is also a way of dissipating the pressures of my real profession. I also like working with my hands and I like the community that participates online (mostly).

Here's to handsaws!
Rob

[rob streeper]

Hi Peter. You can get a set of 3 Veritas backsaws for an extra Au$50.00 compared to cost of 1 of my backsaws. There not pretty to look at IMO but since you are not overly concerned with the aesthetics of a hand saw it may well suit your needs perfectly. I have heard they are quite popular in the USA.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=71884&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1

regards Stewie;

I'm sure that this saw works very well too and for some it's all the saw they want at $9.99.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-FatMax-17-202-14-Inch-Back/dp/B000VSKORU/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423707319&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=disston+backsaw

I have some saws like this and I use them quite a bit.

[Heavansabove]

I'm sure that this saw works very well too and for some it's all the saw they want at $9.99.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-FatMax-17-202-14-Inch-Back/dp/B000VSKORU/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423707319&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=disston+backsaw

I have some saws like this and I use them quite a bit.

Hi Rob, The only hardpoint I have came in an auction box lot with a light coating of rust that never seems to get any worse. Whenever I am sawing up old stuff (or demolishing an old built-in wardrobe), that is what I use for breakdown - for some reason I don't like hitting nails or screws with my good saws. My best hand saw is a 1950s Sandvik I refurbished - superb steel, virtually full size, even with the plastic handle, tracks so well; I was given this saw, owner considered it a dead loss (it was very blunt, and covered in rust - but not pitted as it happened so shined up well - I like to see the square reflection)!

http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by planemaker http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=1843669#post1843669)
Hi Peter. You can get a set of 3 Veritas backsaws for an extra Au$50.00 compared to cost of 1 of my backsaws. There not pretty to look at IMO but since you are not overly concerned with the aesthetics of a hand saw it may well suit your needs perfectly. I have heard they are quite popular in the USA. regards Stewie

Hi Stewie, I have used the Veritas dovetail saw, and it is good, handle is not so comfortable for me though. I was not clear in my comments above - aesthetics are important, ugly saws are usually uncomfortable and probably do not cut well either. However if the saw is well made, sharp teeth, handle shaped for the user - using a sound handle design (lots in history, I like Isaac's generally), good usable finish (shellac and wax works for me) - I feel that is a good point for me to stop, and ask myself - now what else do I do to make this better?

Cheers
Peter