Isaac On Sawfiles

[Pac man]

Some good info
http://www.blackburntools.com/blog/concerning-saw-files-which-i-am-now-selling/

[planemaker]

Nice work Isaac.

regards Stewie. :2tsup:

[IanW]

I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but from reading your 'treatise', it looks like our experiences have been very similar, Isaac. If the Grobert files ever go 'off', I don't know what we'll do for finer toothed saws!

I used up the last of any suitable NOS files I could get my hands on quite a while back, so have been making do with new Pferds for larger teeth. They are ok, but only just. The teeth are too brittle and fail pretty quick when cutting in, as you have observed... :C

Cheers,

[D.W.]

Presume you guys don't have anyone importing bahco files by the box?

we have an auto supply place here "auto tool world" that has been selling bahco files for a while, and cheap, but what you don't find out from their site is that you have to buy in boxes of 10. Most of the file sizes you'd use from them are between $4 and $6 a file. For as good as the files are, that's CHEAP. They just get drop shipped directly from williams tool (snap on), thus no ability to get anything other than boxes of ten.

Grobet files that I've gotten lately have been garbage, uneven edges, bowed, misshapen, miscut teeth, etc. They are all I have for the small xx slim files, though. Those were the ones sold here labeled "grobet USA". I do have some swiss, but it's getting with grobet that something you got two years ago that's good may not be so the next time around (I'm sure isaac will provide a buffer from any junk, though - something the box sellers on amazon and ebay don't do. They ship whatever they have)

I'm glad to see isaac selling individual files for people who will need individual files.

[planemaker]

Hi DW. I use Vallorbe 3 Square Needle Files. They have a longer lasting edge retention. They come in 2 lengths. 160mm & 180mm. The longer length have a slightly wider flat increasing that increases their compatibilty to include 10 ppi. They also come in 4 different coarseness of cut. 0, 1, 2, 3, 4. The higher the number, the finer the cut. My personal preference is #Cut 3. I can for example shape & sharpen new teeth on a 12" backsaw using only 1 edge of the file. For the D8 20" Panel Saw (10 ppi) I am currently refurbishing, will require the need to use 2 edges of the file. If I had chosen a #Cut 2 file, 1 edge would have been sufficient, but it does leave a slightly harsher surface appearance.

http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/needle-file-vallorbe-three-square-160mm-p-1149.html

regards Stewie;

[Isaac S]

I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but from reading your 'treatise', it looks like our experiences have been very similar, Isaac. If the Grobert files ever go 'off', I don't know what we'll do for finer toothed saws!

I used up the last of any suitable NOS files I could get my hands on quite a while back, so have been making do with new Pferds for larger teeth. They are ok, but only just. The teeth are too brittle and fail pretty quick when cutting in, as you have observed... :C

Cheers,

It seems like everyone filing more than a few saws has reached the same conclusions. Pferd and Bahco are in the same tier, but I slightly prefer Bahco.

I sincerely hope Grobet holds the line on their needle files. Maybe the combined demand from saw sharpeners and jewelers and whoever else uses them counts for something.






Grobet files that I've gotten lately have been garbage, uneven edges, bowed, misshapen, miscut teeth, etc. They are all I have for the small xx slim files, though. Those were the ones sold here labeled "grobet USA". I do have some swiss, but it's getting with grobet that something you got two years ago that's good may not be so the next time around (I'm sure isaac will provide a buffer from any junk, though - something the box sellers on amazon and ebay don't do. They ship whatever they have)

I presume the Grobet files you write of are the ones sold as saw files. I don't sell any of those files, as I have not had good luck in the past with them. I bought many dozen a few years ago, and was very excited to get them. I quickly soured on them, though, because of their poor quality. I still have a few boxes left that I occasionally use for reshaping teeth. They really aren't useful for anything else that I do.

The only Grobet files I sell are the needle files, and I haven't seen any decline in the quality of those files. I use those instead of the 4" XX files now, partly because I don't know of anyone making a good saw file in that size. I also have come to really like the sharper corners of the needle files for teeth that are about 11 or 12 ppi and finer.

[IanW]

It seems like everyone filing more than a few saws has reached the same conclusions. Pferd and Bahco are in the same tier, but I slightly prefer Bahco......

Isaac, much as I like the Grobet needle files for smaller teeth, I have to say I find them less comfortable to use, and they become decidedly uncomfortable on a long row of teeth, or if sharpening several saws in succession, because of those sharp points and short stroke. So I would prefer to find a reliable 5" DEST or equivalent, for the mid-range sizes of teeth (~10-12 tpi), if I could. I just checked their catalogues, & Bahco seem to have a better range than Pferd, down our way. They say they have 4", 5", & 6" DEST. The best I could get from Pferd (about 6 months ago) was supposed to be the equivalent of 5" ES, but the corners weren't what I'm used to in ES! Worse, they varied (on the same file!), which makes life interesting for saw sharpeners. I'm about to run out of small files, so I'll get a pack of Bahcos and give them a trial.


.....The only Grobet files I sell are the needle files, and I haven't seen any decline in the quality of those files..

My fingers are firmly crossed...... :C
:U
Cheers,

[rob streeper]

Isaac, much as I like the Grobet needle files for smaller teeth, I have to say I find them less comfortable to use, and they become decidedly uncomfortable on a long row of teeth, or if sharpening several saws in succession, because of those sharp points and short stroke. So I would prefer to find a reliable 5" DEST or equivalent, for the mid-range sizes of teeth (~10-12 tpi), if I could. I just checked their catalogues, & Bahco seem to have a better range than Pferd, down our way. They say they have 4", 5", & 6" DEST. The best I could get from Pferd (about 6 months ago) was supposed to be the equivalent of 5" ES, but the corners weren't what I'm used to in ES! Worse, they varied (on the same file!), which makes life interesting for saw sharpeners. I'm about to run out of small files, so I'll get a pack of Bahcos and give them a trial.



My fingers are firmly crossed...... :C
:U
Cheers,

I alleviate that cramping by inserting the small tang of such files into a larger handle alongside one or two pieces of 0.035" MIG wire and twist until it tightens.

[Isaac S]

Hi DW. I use Vallorbe 3 Square Needle Files. They have a longer lasting edge retention. They come in 2 lengths. 160mm & 180mm. The longer length have a slightly wider flat increasing that increases their compatibilty to include 10 ppi. They also come in 4 different coarseness of cut. 0, 1, 2, 3, 4. The higher the number, the finer the cut. My personal preference is #Cut 3. I can for example shape & sharpen new teeth on a 12" backsaw using only 1 edge of the file. For the D8 20" Panel Saw (10 ppi) I am currently refurbishing, will require the need to use 2 edges of the file. If I had chosen a #Cut 2 file, 1 edge would have been sufficient, but it does leave a slightly harsher surface appearance.

http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/needle-file-vallorbe-three-square-160mm-p-1149.html

regards Stewie;


The Grobet needle files I use are 200mm long. I use the No. 2 cut. I have tried the No. 4, but they are just too fine for my taste and don't last quite as long. I don't think I have seen them sold in a No. 3 cut, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.

[Isaac S]

Isaac, much as I like the Grobet needle files for smaller teeth, I have to say I find them less comfortable to use, and they become decidedly uncomfortable on a long row of teeth, or if sharpening several saws in succession, because of those sharp points and short stroke. So I would prefer to find a reliable 5" DEST or equivalent, for the mid-range sizes of teeth (~10-12 tpi), if I could. I just checked their catalogues, & Bahco seem to have a better range than Pferd, down our way. They say they have 4", 5", & 6" DEST. The best I could get from Pferd (about 6 months ago) was supposed to be the equivalent of 5" ES, but the corners weren't what I'm used to in ES! Worse, they varied (on the same file!), which makes life interesting for saw sharpeners. I'm about to run out of small files, so I'll get a pack of Bahcos and give them a trial.

10 ppi is an awkward size for me to file with today's files. I do wish I could get a 4" or 5" DEST from Bahco for them.

That's interesting that you can get the 4" DEST from Bahco. Here, I can't find them. LEt me know if you can actually get them. The only DEST saw file I can find from Bahco is the 6" version. I have seen Pferd sold in 5" and 8" versions, but I haven't used those sizes.

Regarding the sharp point, just break it off. Does take you in the wrong direction for solving the length problem, though. What length are you using? I use the 200mm files, and if you break off about 3/8" from the end, it is almost identical in length and cross section to a 4" DEST file. I'm only half joking about breaking them, but have done it more than once myself (unintentionally). I use a filing guide, though, so sharp points don't bother me.



My fingers are firmly crossed...... :C
:U

I should probably keep my mouth shut so they don't get any ideas about taking them away from us.

[Isaac S]

I alleviate that cramping by inserting the small tang of such files into a larger handle alongside one or two pieces of 0.035" MIG wire and twist until it tightens.

I love the tangs on my needle files. They work great in the cast iron handles, but one of these days I'm going to make myself a deluxe handle out of some exotic wood and bronze specifically for those files. Just need to catch up a bit more on work first...

[FenceFurniture]

...so I'll get a pack of Bahcos and give them a trial. ...and damned good luck sourcing them......

If you find a retailer who stocks them then you'd better make some noise. The only retailer I've been able to find stocks a poofteenth of their range, and is in Perth.

[FenceFurniture]

I sincerely hope Grobet holds the line on their needle files. Maybe the combined demand from saw sharpeners and jewelers and whoever else uses them counts for something.Apologies if I'm repeating myself, or what others have already mentioned, but....

If it's a Grobet or F.Dick or Vallorbe or Glardon needle file then it is made by Glardon in Switzerland, with whatever badge is required for that day. There are more than likely other brands that can be included here. In short, if it's a good quality needle file, with a round tang that has two knurlings on it, then it comes from Glardon.

:ranton:

If it is any other kind of saw file then it is either:
1. made in Portugal by Tome Feteira and branded as Bahco
2. made in France by Liogier
3. Made in India China, Mexico, Honduras or Brazil. Possibly the Philipines. (and that includes all Pferd files - Indian).

There are exactly three European Saw File factories.

If it has a black printed logo etc - highly likely to be of Indian descent (especially if the printing is lousy). Note that's "descent" not "decent". :~:D

If the country is printed on it without the words "Made In" then it wasn't. Simply marketed from that country (if that).

In short... be suspicious :ninja:

http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/smilie%20signs/rantoff.gif

[Isaac S]

Apologies if I'm repeating myself, or what others have already mentioned, but....

If it's a Grobet or F.Dick or Vallorbe or Glardon needle file then it is made by Glardon in Switzerland, with whatever badge is required for that day. There are more than likely other brands that can be included here. In short, if it's a good quality needle file, with a round tang that has two knurlings on it, then it comes from Glardon.

:ranton:

If it is any other kind of saw file then it is either:
1. made in Portugal by Tome Feteira and branded as Bahco
2. made in France by Liogier
3. Made in India China, Mexico, Honduras or Brazil. Possibly the Philipines. (and that includes all Pferd files - Indian).

There are exactly three European Saw File factories.

If it has a black printed logo etc - highly likely to be of Indian descent (especially if the printing is lousy). Note that's "descent" not "decent". :~:D

If the country is printed on it without the words "Made In" then it wasn't. Simply marketed from that country (if that).

In short... be suspicious :ninja:

http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/smilie%20signs/rantoff.gif

Didn't it take 50 pages to reach this conclusion last year? :;

Seriously, though, thank you for the concise summary.

[planemaker]

The Grobet needle files I use are 200mm long. I use the No. 2 cut. I have tried the No. 4, but they are just too fine for my taste and don't last quite as long. I don't think I have seen them sold in a No. 3 cut, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.

Hi Isaac. I highly recommend you trial the swiss Vallorbe 3 square needle files. Get the longer ones at 180mm #cut 3. I would not be surprised if you find the edge retention far superior than the Grobets your currently using.

http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/needle-file-vallorbe-three-square-160mm-p-1149.html

If you need someone in Aust. to order you some, you can contact me via pm. There's generally a modest cost saving on the unit price if you order by the box. (12 files).

regards Stewie;

[D.W.]

It seems like everyone filing more than a few saws has reached the same conclusions. Pferd and Bahco are in the same tier, but I slightly prefer Bahco.

I sincerely hope Grobet holds the line on their needle files. Maybe the combined demand from saw sharpeners and jewelers and whoever else uses them counts for something.

I presume the Grobet files you write of are the ones sold as saw files. I don't sell any of those files, as I have not had good luck in the past with them. I bought many dozen a few years ago, and was very excited to get them. I quickly soured on them, though, because of their poor quality. I still have a few boxes left that I occasionally use for reshaping teeth. They really aren't useful for anything else that I do.

The only Grobet files I sell are the needle files, and I haven't seen any decline in the quality of those files. I use those instead of the 4" XX files now, partly because I don't know of anyone making a good saw file in that size. I also have come to really like the sharper corners of the needle files for teeth that are about 11 or 12 ppi and finer.

Yes, those were grobet saw files. The worst thing is that I did get one box originally and they were decent. So I ordered four more and got them and they were junk.

I can't imagine that they can allow the needle files to go to junk, unless they don't want to sell to jewelers and craftsmen. Thanks for clarifying that's all that's left from them that's any good.

Bahcos have a bit wider corner than other files I've had, but in the sizes I use for them, I've never had anything stick in the gullets. I just try to pay attention to what I'm doing and look to see what I last sharpened with, but my supply of non-bahcos is running out, and I resharpen a rip saw more than any other type of saw that I have, so the small saws aren't as much of a concern. I guess when my last few swiss 4xx files are gone, I'll have to go to needle files, too.

I've never bought pferd (mostly because I've never found them available for cheap), and vallorbe i've only bought in jeweler's files (they are good files, though). If bahco stops making good files, we're in trouble.

[D.W.]

...and damned good luck sourcing them......

If you find a retailer who stocks them then you'd better make some noise. The only retailer I've been able to find stocks a poofteenth of their range, and is in Perth.

You guys need to find an american buddy. It's pretty easy to get boxes of 10 bahcos in anything from slim to xs for $40 to $60 here (a little more for 6 xx slim or very big files), and several boxes could be put in a flat rate box to aus.

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Isaac. I highly recommend you trial the swiss Vallorbe 3 square needle files. Get the longer ones at 180mm #cut 3. I would not be surprised if you find the edge retention far superior than the Grobets your currently using.

If it's a Grobet or F.Dick or Vallorbe or Glardon needle file then it is made by Glardon in Switzerland, with whatever badge is required for that day.

Stewie, they are not just identical, they are from the same factory with a different badge. Isaac is already effectively using Vallorbe needles.

[FenceFurniture]

Didn't it take 50 pages to reach this conclusion last year? :;Yeah, you're right Isaac - it just took 50 pages to prove what is in that summary.:doh:

[FenceFurniture]

You guys need to find an american buddy. It's pretty easy to get boxes of 10 bahcos in anything from slim to xs for $40 to $60 here (a little more for 6 xx slim or very big files), and several boxes could be put in a flat rate box to aus.We do have a few buddies in the States, but it's the inconvenience of a long wait or horrendous postage cost - none of this place the order and have them the next day caper. The stupid thing is that the local Bahco distributor has most, if not all of the saw files available. It's just that no retailers stock them, which makes me wonder how long the distributor will be able to stock them for - they must sell hardly any.

[Pac man]

D.C, Google the supplier you mentioned for Bahco. Given his reviews and my experience I would encourage others to support individuals like Isaac.

FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110

[FenceFurniture]

FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110That smacks of them not having any stock, special order, box only, let's make the pricing easy as they have little interest.

[rob streeper]

D.C, Google the supplier you mentioned for Bahco. Given his reviews and my experience I would encourage others to support individuals like Isaac.

FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110

Ouch! I just picked up a box of Nicholson Black Diamond 5" XXslim's for $30 shipping included.

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Rob,
Do you not have trouble with the teeth breaking off of the file, literally? My 5xx grobets certainly do this. I am just trying to use them up at this point, as I had bought several boxes of them. I have the same problem with the 4xx as well. But not as many of those. As others have mentioned the only Grobets that seem to be worth a darn are the needle files. I am actually due to order a couple of boxes. So off to shopping I go. But at some point I will try the Bacho files. But I came across quite a few 6xx , 7x & 7xx NOS K&F files that work fairly well. ( Made in Brazil ) but still better than the others. AT $1.00 each I couldn't not take a chance on them. The quality control was obviously not the best. Once in a while I will get a bad one.

[FenceFurniture]

Do you not have trouble with the teeth breaking off of the file, literally? LUXURY! Could be worse - here is a 6xx Pferd that was sent to me (the whole box was like it).

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=274027&d=1372066322

Excellent for those tricky S shaped gullets.

That's unused btw.

[planemaker]

Stewie, they are not just identical, they are from the same factory with a different badge. Isaac is already effectively using Vallorbe needles.

What you say may be quite true; but from some of the feedback I have reviewed on the quality of the Grobet 3 square needle files being supplied to the U.S market, the Vallorbe swiss files I use do indeed have a superior corner edge retention.

regards Stewie;

[FenceFurniture]

Given that they are 200mm long, compared to the usual 180mm, they must be a custom run for Grobet. However, you wouldn't think that they would necessarily be toothed differently, but maybe they are. There are only 3 file factories left in Europe - Glardon, Tome Feteira and Liogier. There is actually a fourth, Stahl Willie who claim that ALL of their tools are made in Germany, but they only make a tiny range of Engineer's Files.

Isaac I'd be interested to know what is punched in the tang, i.e. "Grobet Suisse" or "Swiss Made" etc, and whether or not the arrow is present.

Here is the F.Dick version that Glardon makes for them:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273780&d=1371946924


and the Indian saw files that F.Dick and Grobet USA have made for them (the black ink is a dead set give away). This pic was to illustrate the lousy grinding of the blank, which essentially makes them a double cut file:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273781&d=1371946927

[FenceFurniture]

For those who haven't seen the report that Isaac mentioned (and that may include D.W. Rob Streeper and Ron Bontz), you can download it from here:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=174867

[IanW]

.......That's interesting that you can get the 4" DEST from Bahco. Here, I can't find them. LEt me know if you can actually get them. The only DEST saw file I can find from Bahco is the 6" version. I have seen Pferd sold in 5" and 8" versions, but I haven't used those sizes......

Well (Isaac) I haven't GOT any files yet. Have got as far as looking at Bahco's Australian website, wherein they claim to have quite a range of tapered saw files.

(Brett) - I'm not even trying to find a retailer, the bigger tool stores here in Brissy carry a pathetic range of files. The only retailer who carries what you might call a 'range' is Blackwoods, but they are such a pita to buy from. Last time I was there, the bloke serving me came back with the wrong files (I'd asked for 'mill' files & he brought the regular flat files), but I'd already waited so damn long, I just paid for what he brought out & left in disgust!
To get some Bahcos, I planned to do the same as for the Pferd files I bought. Order though one of their listed 'agents', whatever the minimum quantity is (box of 10, I hope). If they work out ok, I will certainly let everyone know. You will probably hear me singing "Hallelulah" from your Blue Mountain retreat.....


.......Regarding the sharp point, just break it off. Does take you in the wrong direction for solving the length problem, though. What length are you using? I use the 200mm files, and if you break off about 3/8" from the end, it is almost identical in length and cross section to a 4" DEST file. I'm only half joking about breaking them, but have done it more than once myself (unintentionally). I use a filing guide, though, so sharp points don't bother me.

Ditto - have broken many of those sharp ends off, also mostly in the file guide. :~

I use mainly 160mm, reason being most of the extra 20mm on the next size is at the sharp end (or so it seems to me!), & I seem to get very little benefit from the extra length. So on a cost/benefit analysis, they simply don't stack up, for me. I get my files from the same chain as Stewie does, but the folks here in Brisbane aren't as generous with their quantity discount, or I lack Stewie's charm & pursasion, so they still cost me more than they ought... :C

And just to be different again, I much prefer the 4 cuts for sharpening, and have even started using them for tooth forming. Compared with a single-cut 'regular' saw file, these things just eat metal, so even with a 4 cut, it only takes about 4 strokes to form a tooth for an 18tpi saw, and two more, perhaps, for a 15 tpi saw. The difference in speed of cut between a 3 & a 4 is very small, and the finer teeth of the 4 leave a slightly nicer surface on the sharpening run. So when I ran out of 3s a couple of months ago, I decided to rationalise my file stock a little, & just switched to using 4s for the whole process...

Cheers,

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob,
Do you not have trouble with the teeth breaking off of the file, literally? My 5xx grobets certainly do this. I am just trying to use them up at this point, as I had bought several boxes of them. I have the same problem with the 4xx as well. But not as many of those. As others have mentioned the only Grobets that seem to be worth a darn are the needle files. I am actually due to order a couple of boxes. So off to shopping I go. But at some point I will try the Bacho files. But I came across quite a few 6xx , 7x & 7xx NOS K&F files that work fairly well. ( Made in Brazil ) but still better than the others. AT $1.00 each I couldn't not take a chance on them. The quality control was obviously not the best. Once in a while I will get a bad one.

Hi Ron,

I try to use Nicholsons when I can get them, especially the old ones. The box of 5" XXS files I referred to above is of recent manufacture. The imprint is so small I can't tell the country of origin and the box didn't have any information as to origin on cursory inspection.
So far none of the teeth on the first file I've used have come off. I am extra careful to avoid any looseness in my saw vises so that oscillation of the saw plate doesn't do damage to the file teeth. I often put a damper between the plate and one vise jaw to reduce singing.
These new files seem to be a little less durable than are some of the older lots of Nicholsons I have but so far their sharpening performance is good, especially so considering that I paid $2.50/ea for a full new box. When the weather improves I'll post some pictures of the new and used files as well as the various labels and stamps on the box.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. Certain difficulties can arise when comparing all feedback on certain brands of saw files. Readers need to fully understand that the traditional technique of shaping and sharpening the saw teeth by hand, finding a file that has very good corner edge retention is of critical importance. Whereas, if you use a Foley machine or Fly Press to shape of the saw teeth, the demands placed upon the file are of a far less significant value. Its like comparing apples with oranges within importance.

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. Certain difficulties can arise when comparing all feedback on certain brands of saw files. Readers need to fully understand that the traditional technique of shaping and sharpening the saw teeth by hand, finding a file that has very good corner edge retention is of critical importance. Whereas, if you use a Foley machine or Fly Press to shape of the saw teeth, the demands placed upon the file are of a far less significant value. Its like comparing apples with oranges within importance.

regards Stewie;

Hi Stewie,

I agree, I was thinking of hardness testing a few of the files I have from different makers to probe the issue. Several files I've tested in the past have shown a range of HRC values but I think a more systematic study would be interesting.

Cheers,
Rob

[FenceFurniture]

I agree, I was thinking of hardness testing a few of the files I have from different makers to probe the issue. Several files I've tested in the past have shown a range of HRC values but I think a more systematic study would be interesting.That's very interesting, and would have been something I would have liked done on the saw files that were sent out for testing (and I still have all of them).

A question on that - the edges are the critical part of course, but can the edges be tested for hardness? I would have thought that the only area to make a punch mark would be on the face. Now that probably doesn't matter, as long as there is no hardness variation between the edge and the face. Can we assume that is the case?

[FenceFurniture]

Whereas, if you use a Foley machine or Fly Press to shape of the saw teeth, the demands placed upon the file are of a far less significant value. Its like comparing apples with oranges within importance.Yes indeed Stewie - tis a pity they are almost non-existent in Oz (as far as I know)

[rob streeper]

That's very interesting, and would have been something I would have liked done on the saw files that were sent out for testing (and I still have all of them).

A question on that - the edges are the critical part of course, but can the edges be tested for hardness? I would have thought that the only area to make a punch make would be on the face. Now that probably doesn't matter, as long as there is no hardness variation between the edge and the face. Can we assume that is the case?

I think it'll work on the faces if I can align the test face perpendicular to the indenter using the v-block anvils. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't hit the edge, and even if I could I think that the amount of material supporting the test point is insufficient for HRC testing because of material flow/distortion, maybe it would work with HRN45.
As to the uniformity of hardness I think we're just guessing. My understanding is that files are made of W-1 tool steel or something similar. The edges, having a lower thermal mass, would be particularly susceptible to cooling rapidly on the trip from normalizing to quench.

[rob streeper]

Yes indeed Stewie - tis a pity they are almost non-existent in Oz (as far as I know)

Trust me, you don't want one - they're the quick path to dissipation, moral degeneration and sloth.:U

I just noticed that this is my 666th post here.

[planemaker]

Hi Brett. I am forming a strong belief that the Vallorbe (Swiss manufactured) files are of a different and superior quality to those being labelled Grobet USA. (USA manufactured).

regards Stewie;

[FenceFurniture]

The edges, having a lower thermal mass, would be particularly susceptible to cooling rapidly on the trip from normalizing to quench.Yeah, that's what I was sorta getting at.....

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Brett. I am forming a strong belief that the Vallorbe (Swiss manufactured) files are of a different and superior quality to those being labelled Grobet USA. (USA manufactured).

regards Stewie;Maybe you and Isaac could do a swapsie? Isaac could post to my Shipito address, as I have a package just about ready to ship.

[planemaker]

Yes indeed Stewie - tis a pity they are almost non-existent in Oz (as far as I know)

Hi Brett. I have a strong personal preference for the traditional technique.

I do find it a bit misleading when I read the usual sales pitch "hand sharpened" , especially when the saw maker fails to mention the saw teeth were also punched out by a machine before hand. :no:

Stewie;

[Isaac S]

Maybe you and Isaac could do a swapsie? Isaac could post to my Shipito address, as I have a package just about ready to ship.

I'm up for that, but I'm not sure how any comparison would look since I am selling the Grobet needle files.

[Isaac S]

Hi Brett. I am forming a strong belief that the Vallorbe (Swiss manufactured) files are of a different and superior quality to those being labelled Grobet USA. (USA manufactured).

regards Stewie;

I'll try to get a good picture of the Grobet needle files in the next day or two. I don't think they are made here in the US. They have exactly the same "SWISS MADE" stamp that Brett showed in the picture below. They are also stamped Vallorbe.





Isaac I'd be interested to know what is punched in the tang, i.e. "Grobet Suisse" or "Swiss Made" etc, and whether or not the arrow is present.

Here is the F.Dick version that Glardon makes for them:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273780&d=1371946924




Brett, no pictures yet. For now, I can tell you what the stamp reads:

GROBET 2
VALLORBE
SWISS MADE

The 2 is the cut (coarseness). There is also an outline of the Grobet rabbit logo stamped next to the text. No arrow (isn't the arrow part of F. Dick's trademark or logo?). This is all stamped between two of the bands of knurling. Everything is stamped at an angle, just as shown in your picture.

[Isaac S]

Hi Brett. I have a strong personal preference for the traditional technique.

I do find it a bit misleading when I read the usual sales pitch "hand sharpened" , especially when the saw maker fails to mention the saw teeth were also punched out by a machine before hand. :no:

Stewie;


If you're talking about teeth that were punched, then sharpened by hand, then I will hazard a guess and say that is the traditional technique.

Now, if by "hand sharpened" you meant filed on a Foley (or similar) machine, then I agree that is at least a bit misleading.

[FenceFurniture]

I don't think they are made here in the US. Definitely not - there are no files of any type made in the USA now, as far as I can ascertain.
They have exactly the same "SWISS MADE" stamp that Brett showed in the picture below. They are also stamped Vallorbe.

Brett, no pictures yet. For now, I can tell you what the stamp reads:

GROBET 2
VALLORBE
SWISS MADE

The 2 is the cut (coarseness). There is also an outline of the Grobet rabbit logo stamped next to the text. No arrow (isn't the arrow part of F. Dick's trademark or logo?). This is all stamped between two of the bands of knurling. Everything is stamped at an angle, just as shown in your picture.I just checked my Glardon #6 cut 140mm files that a Swiss colleague purchased direct from Glardon. They are stamped:
GLARDON
(fish symbol)
VALLORBE
SWISS MADE
6

So I think we have proved that Stewie's, Isaac's and my files all come from the same factory in Suisse (and Stewie's are probably stamped the same as mine). What remains to be determined is if there are any other differences between the edges, as Stewie suspects there is.

There is no arrow on it so as you say Isaac, that is probably an F.Dick thing.

Actually, I'd like to send Ian, Isaac and Stewie one of those #6 cut files for a try out. The idea is that they are used for a one-stroke finish only, after all the sharpening has been done, to get the smoothest possible surface. They are only short but at only one stroke per tooth for finishing they should do a good many saws I would think.

The same idea as finishing sharpening a chisel or plane blade with 6000 or 12000 (or whatever). Just to put the sharpest finish on the tooth because a sharper edge will stay sharp for longer, etc etc.

If it doesn't make an appreciable difference then that's the way it goes, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.......

[rob streeper]

If you're talking about teeth that were punched, then sharpened by hand, then I will hazard a guess and say that is the traditional technique.

Now, if by "hand sharpened" you meant filed on a Foley (or similar) machine, then I agree that is at least a bit misleading.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/factorytour.html

[rob streeper]

Yeah, that's what I was sorta getting at.....

Apart from the video's posted by N. Liogier I don't know how files are quenched in manufacture. I would like to think that such processes are carefully controlled but modern files show that the standards have slipped. Maybe this is an opportunity for a guy with a heat treating oven to re-work saw files...

[rob streeper]

That's very interesting, and would have been something I would have liked done on the saw files that were sent out for testing (and I still have all of them).



I'm willing to test them if you're willing to send them.

[Isaac S]

Apart from the video's posted by N. Liogier I don't know how files are quenched in manufacture. I would like to think that such processes are carefully controlled but modern files show that the standards have slipped. Maybe this is an opportunity for a guy with a heat treating oven to re-work saw files...

The problem is that with many of these files, the hardening is just the last in a long series of unfortunate events leading up to a useless tool. Shoddy blank preparation, misshappen blanks, and uneven teeth are all built into the file before heat treatment, and are irreversible.

[Isaac S]

Brett, is Noel selling saw files now? I can't find them on his website, but know that you have mentioned them a couple of times. If you've used them, how do they compare to other files in quality and price?

[FenceFurniture]

The problem is that with many of these files, the hardening is just the last in a long series of unfortunate events leading up to a useless tool. Shoddy blank preparation, misshappen blanks, and uneven teeth are all built into the file before heat treatment, and are irreversible.Indeed - refer to the pic in post #25 - looks like it's straight out of a volcano. http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/sad/cry.gif


Apart from the video's posted by N. Liogier I don't know how files are quenched in manufacture. I would like to think that such processes are carefully controlled but modern files show that the standards have slipped. Maybe this is an opportunity for a guy with a heat treating oven to re-work saw files..."carefully controlled" and "made in India" are not phrases I would use in the same sentence......

[FenceFurniture]

Brett, is Noel selling saw files now? I can't find them on his website, but know that you have mentioned them a couple of times. If you've used them, how do they compare to other files in quality and price?Yes he is, but they have never been on his website, and probably never will be .........unless a new range is brought out :;

If I send the test files to Rob for hardness testing I can include the Vallorbe #6 that I mentioned, as well as a Japanese prototype I have here (parallel body), and some Liogiers (a couple of each for you and Rob, and perhaps Ron if he likes), if Rob could on-post to you both. Might include some for Marv Werner as well.

Whadya'll think?

[hiroller]

Hi Brett. I have a strong personal preference for the traditional technique.

I do find it a bit misleading when I read the usual sales pitch "hand sharpened" , especially when the saw maker fails to mention the saw teeth were also punched out by a machine before hand. :no:

Stewie;

I respect your desire for hand shaped teeth but my understanding is that punching is also a traditional method for shaping teeth. Prior to industrialisation, saws were made by blacksmiths, for whom punching was a standard operation. They would also have used punches to set the teeth. Hand punching teeth is a skilled task but no more so that punching teeth on a fire that were also made by blacksmiths. Even the hand punching of teeth would be much faster than using a file for shaping and using a file to shape teeth uses up files quickly meaning punching would be much cheaper.

Is it even possible that using files to shape teeth is a modern small saw maker technique?
By the time that industrialisation had made files cheap enough to be a viable alternative to punching in the shaping of teeth, the big factories had taken over the manufacture of saws.

[rob streeper]

I respect your desire for hand shaped teeth but my understanding is that punching is also a traditional method for shaping teeth. Prior to industrialisation, saws were made by blacksmiths, for whom punching was a standard operation. They would also have used punches to set the teeth. Hand punching teeth is a skilled task but no more so that punching teeth on a fire that were also made by blacksmiths. Even the hand punching of teeth would be much faster than using a file for shaping and using a file to shape teeth uses up files quickly meaning punching would be much cheaper.

Is it even possible that using files to shape teeth is a modern small saw maker technique?
By the time that industrialisation had made files cheap enough to be a viable alternative to punching in the shaping of teeth, the big factories had taken over the manufacture of saws.

I've seen a couple of pieces on the web about the processes employed by Disston and all refer to machine forming/punching. Foley seems to have made the majority of saw tooth punchers but there were others such as Burr manufacturing.

Just ran across this, though a bit off topic. http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. I find it difficult to accept the argument that Disstons methods of highly mechanizing the process of saw making has any great bearing on the methods employed by small boutique saw makers. The use of a Foley machine or likewise should be seen as it is; a means of bypassing the much more difficult process of competently shaping new saw teeth by hand. IMO

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. I find it difficult to accept the argument that Disstons methods of highly mechanizing the process of saw making has any great bearing on the methods employed by small boutique saw makers. The use of a Foley machine or likewise should be seen as it is; a means of bypassing the much more difficult process of competently shaping new saw teeth by hand. IMO

regards Stewie;

Hi Stewie,

I was responding above to a question from Ron B, no reference was made to punching vs. filing.

As far as your jab at me over my use of a tooth puncher the same criticism could be directed at of any other expedient method of manufacture. I also don't produce my own steel, grow my own trees for making handles or mine the ores that go into my saw backs. We all stand on the shoulders of others technologically and we all use tools made by others to make our saws. Other custom saw makers also use Foley machines and nobody, as far as I know, has ever quantitatively shown that forming teeth by hand is superior to punching them. I have read that some prefer saws made by filing but having used both I can't perceive a difference.

Over the past year or so I've been posting on subjects that I find interesting and developing and using innovations that I've conceived with the objective of making better saws and I'll continue to do so despite your negative comments. Your criticism of me and my methods has made me think that you just have it in for me, much like the people at Sawmill Creek where anybody who steps out of line or dares to raise a question about received wisdom gets a drubbing.

A while back I looked at the responses to my posts on the two sites that I had made regarding saw plate hardening. I counted all of the comments and divided them into four broad categories: 1) Positive, encouraging or constructive comments; 2) negative, derogatory or disparaging comments; 3) neutral comments and 4) questions. Here are the results:

341375

Of course these results only apply to the responses my posts received but when they are considered in light of other comments, both public and private, I have read regarding the demeanor of the populations that comment on the two sites I can say that my experience is consistent with the sentiments of others, i.e. SMC is a less pleasant place to post work on than is WWF. Exactly why this state of affairs exists is hard for me to say but it may be related to this: https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/10/20/over-quarter-americans-admit-malicious-online-comm/ or this: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886914000324
This (http://www.academia.edu/5975837/Online_Trolls_Sadists_of_the_Internet) is interesting in particular because of the data relating to motivation presented in the center column at the bottom.

Both sites draw an international population of commenters so nationalistic statements are inappropriate but WWF is in my opinion a much more civil place.

I really don't think that disparaging comments have a place on sites such as these as the things posted relate to hobbies or at most hobby businesses. Biting commentary and criticism of the styles of others are out of line because personal preferences are matters of taste.

To summarize: You don't like the fact that I use a Foley tooth puncher, but in the absence of empirical data demonstrating the superiority of hand filing for cutting teeth your dislike is just an opinion. Further, in your opinion I and the other tooth stampers of the world are dishonest because we state our saws are 'hand sharpened'. My saws are hand sharpened so your public accusation that I am being dishonest is libelous. You have on several occasions made unfair and unfriendly comments to me and to others on the site so rather than turn the other cheek I've decided to raise my objections. Your sniping diminishes my enjoyment of the site and I sense that there are others who hesitate to comment on certain subjects because they don't want to be picked at. Please stop.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. We share 2 totally different values within our saw making work. I am more than happy to become a non contributor to any of your comments or postings. As far as your litigious attitude, its better placed within the confines of your own countries borders.

regards Stewie;

[hiroller]

Easy boys!
Its clear to me that Rob is interested in the science of saw making whereas Stewie is interested in the art of saw making. Neither is right or wrong and both have their place.

I'm somewhere in the middle. The question of how teeth are shaped and the use of files on saws has got me searching and I've found some interesting stuff.

I'm now pretty sure that files have never been used to shape saw teeth until the last 20 years or so. They have always been cut or punched. At the peak of western hand saw making in the late 1800s saw plates were being punched on both sides of the Atlantic. In large industrial complexes in the US and in small Sheffield workshops in the UK.
Andrew Lunn summarised it and explains why he says the use of a fly press is traditional here: http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2010/03/26/waiter-theres-a-fly-press-in-my-soup-part-i-background-to-punching-saw-teeth/

You can find examples of Sheffield saw makers hard at work, including a fly press, in this 1861 magazine cover from picturessheffield.com:


Andrew Lunn also has a view of Moxon on saw making from 1700 that the saw plate was sold with the teeth cut but the filing of the saw was left to the owner.
http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2009/11/26/joseph-moxon-on-saws/

[planemaker]

History At one time all saws were filed in what we would today call a rip filing: little or no set, little or no bevel. For example, I am told that the workshop in the Colonial Williamsburg (http://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/) historical site uses only rip saws. The era they reproduce faithfully is pre-1800. http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/AoSF%20Fig%2012.jpg In 1864, H. W. Holly published The Art of Saw Filing which included many drawings of different crosscut filings, each designed for a type of cut in a type of wood (soft, medium and hard). He has slightly different filings for Mitre saws - where the cut is neither directly across or directly along the grain. The drawing at the right, Fig 12, is the filing for softwoods.

He writes, in reference to cross-cut hand saws: "This saw is more common and in more general use than any other saw."
Some time between 1800 and 1864, the idea of having a different filing for sawing across the grain not only arose, but a preferred set of filing angles was discovered, and, if we are to believe Holly, became the norm.
The Holly drawings appear in Disston catalogs and handbooks until at least the early 1900s.
All of the Disston saw catalogs that I have seen, going back to 1875, have both crosscut and rip saws.


http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/

[hiroller]

Other interesting references include posts by Joel at TFWW and Simon Barley:
https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/57/title/Saw%20Handle%20Making%20In%20Sheffield
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUK/z-UKReading/acidEtching_Saws/acidEtching-Simon1.asp


Quality saw files are expensive and hard to come by, I don't have access to NOS files and it seems a shame to use them up cutting teeth. I believe that using a Retoother and filing by hand is a perfectly traditional method. At the cost of one file per saw, once you want to make more than about a dozen saws you are in front using a retoother.

[planemaker]

Hi Hiroller. My concerns also lie with the fact that at some point that brand new saw you purchased is going to need more than a light touch up with a file to make it continually usable. Its will require a good jointing with a flat file and a sound knowledge on how to reshape those saw teeth with a taper file. As a saw maker, I believe I have a responsibility to lead by example within my own work. Other saw makers may differ in opinion and that is well within their prerogative to do so.

regards Stewie;

[hiroller]

Of course once it was expected that all saw users (rather than saw makers) were responsible for the maintenance and sharpening of their own saws.
My father trained as a Shipwright in the mid 50s and was expected to sharpen his own tools, including saws. They had to make many of their own tools as part of the apprenticeship.
Unfortunately they also had to do jobs like spraying asbestos into ship engine rooms, so their aren't too many of his cohort left.

[rob streeper]

Of course once it was expected that all saw users (rather than saw makers) were responsible for the maintenance and sharpening of their own saws.
My father trained as a Shipwright in the mid 50s and was expected to sharpen his own tools, including saws. They had to make many of their own tools as part of the apprenticeship.
Unfortunately they also had to do jobs like spraying asbestos into ship engine rooms, so their aren't too many of his cohort left.

I suspect that most high-end saws made and sold these days see relatively little use in comparison to the hand saws of our forebears.

Terrible business with asbestos, I hope that you haven't been contaminated.

[Ron Bontz]

As I have read these post, I have found it most unfortunate that some would take such a negative outlook on anyone that uses a Saw punch, of any type. Speaking for myself, I can assure you I am quite capable of completely filing in saw teeth without a retoother. It simply saves me time and plenty of files. If some one wishes to "file in" the saw teeth, I see no problem with that either. The retoother I use is not that accurate and so I always have to reshape the teeth to some extent. Anything above about 16ppi has to be filed in anyway. Thank goodness some one still makes quality needle files! I just ordered another 2 boxes last night. About $300.00 USD, Poof gone. And that was one of my smaller orders. Only to become part of a collection of used files. (Perhaps I could donate them to some isolated aborigines tribe some where ( do they even exist at all? ) or to an isolated South American tribe to be used at the end of their arrows or darts to ward off destructive western loggers looking for slave labor.
Putting CNC machines aside, it seems to me in my small world of ignorance, that the issue is really a matter of perception and definition. We all have our opinions. Especially those of us that are older. Damn I hate getting old.
Add to that one persons fortune of having access to more advanced tooling and financial means as well as "Connections" and sour grapes may come into play. So we rationalize to justify our frustrations. I do not have much in the way of financial or political means. But if I should have any good fortune to be able to use a more advanced tooling to increase the accuracy and overall level of what ever I make. I will do so without hesitation. But will always be cognizant of a hand made feel and quality tool. Others may do as they choose. Who am I to judge?
Time to move on. If anyone is remotely interested, I am posting very crude videos on you tube. "Bontz Saw Works" I'll be posting some tedious videos on saw filing as well in the next couple of days. Just some of my thoughts. SO take it with a grain of salt.

[hiroller]

Thanks for your thoughts Ron.
I found a great video posted by Wilbur Pan on a Japanese saw being made from lump of metal to shine blade. Jump to the 8:55 mark if you want to see how they shape the teeth!
https://vimeo.com/50114505

To get back on track, Japanese saw files seem to very high quality but the wrong shoe for western saws. I wonder if we could get Japanese file makers to make 3 square files?

[FenceFurniture]

I wonder if we could get Japanese file makers to make 3 square files?Eez difficult, but I'm working on it (have a prototype of a parallel body file)

[planemaker]

Add to that one persons fortune of having access to more advanced tooling and financial means as well as "Connections" and sour grapes may come into play.


Hi Ron. I can assure you that is far from the truth in my case.

regards Stewie;

[planemaker]

http://www.dontyzack.care4free.net/files2.pdf

http://www.tyzack.net/Tempering.pdf

http://www.tyzack.net/Saws.pdf

[MarvW]

Easy boys!
Its clear to me that Rob is interested in the science of saw making whereas Stewie is interested in the art of saw making. Neither is right or wrong and both have their place.

I'm somewhere in the middle. The question of how teeth are shaped and the use of files on saws has got me searching and I've found some interesting stuff.

I'm now pretty sure that files have never been used to shape saw teeth until the last 20 years or so. They have always been cut or punched. At the peak of western hand saw making in the late 1800s saw plates were being punched on both sides of the Atlantic. In large industrial complexes in the US and in small Sheffield workshops in the UK.
Andrew Lunn summarised it and explains why he says the use of a fly press is traditional here: http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2010/03/26/waiter-theres-a-fly-press-in-my-soup-part-i-background-to-punching-saw-teeth/

You can find examples of Sheffield saw makers hard at work, including a fly press, in this 1861 magazine cover from picturessheffield.com:


Andrew Lunn also has a view of Moxon on saw making from 1700 that the saw plate was sold with the teeth cut but the filing of the saw was left to the owner.
http://eccentrictoolworks.com/2009/11/26/joseph-moxon-on-saws/

Hi fellow saw filers... :)

Andrew Lunn is a good friend of mine. We communicate from time to time on Facebook. It's good to see that his expertise regarding saw making is still being recognized and his writings are still being quoted. As some of you might know, he is finishing his writing of his book on making saws.

I have not given much thought to how Disston and other major saw makers created the teeth on their saws. When giving it a few minutes consideration, it only seems logical, based on the millions of saws they made that they would not have filed in the teeth by hand. Same for setting the teeth.

I don't have a tooth punching machine such as a Fly Press or Foley type toother. I have always filed them in by hand. Most of the retoothing I've done has been on backsaws. I shudder to even imagine filing new teeth into a saw plate with say, 4-1/2PPI, for example. But when doing it on a backsaw with 12PPI or smaller, it's pretty much routine for me. On the other hand, if I owned a retoother machine, I would surely use it. I'm a lazy kind of guy and will lean in the direction of doing it the easy and fastest way I can. I don't think in traditional terms. In fact, I will avoid tradition when possible or when it is more practical to suit my needs and or desires.

I can make a backsaw, and have done so, but I am not in the business of making backsaws. If I were in the business, I would be doing it in the most expedient way possible within my means. Tradition would play no part in how or what I would do as it would relate to methods of manufacture.

I haven't visited here for quite some time. No particular reason, I like this place and am glad to see you experienced saw makers/filers discussing a subject that I don't see enough of on other forums.

Hope to see you all again soon....:patriot:

Catchalater, :)
Marv

[MarvW]

Hey Ron, good ta see ya!


I'll be posting some tedious videos on saw filing as well in the next couple of days. Just some of my thoughts. SO take it with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

I'm very interested and will be checking those Youtube video,s out. I have seen your others and you do a respectable job. :)

Catchalater,
Marv

[Ron Bontz]

Add to that one persons fortune of having access to more advanced tooling and financial means as well as "Connections" and sour grapes may come into play.


Hi Ron. I can assure you that is far from the truth in my case.

regards Stewie;

Hi Stewie,
I was referring more to myself and my lack of those things to take my saws to another level. In both production and design. Enough said about that.
Marv,
One of these days you will have to make me one of yours and I will make you one of mine. ( Let me get caught up first ):(:( Just an FYI, I did mention your name in the sharpening/ filing video. I also briefly discussed the ACME filer I have sitting in my shop. Still don't use it. :) I still haven't seen much on Andrew's saws. I very much prefer to not be influenced by saws of others. I sometimes think he and I would get along quite well with our design thoughts and common back ground. Fire/ EMS. But who knows. Old guys like me don't get around much. :):)

[planemaker]

Hi Ron. I can assure you that I hold no ill feelings towards the methods you and and Isaac employ with your saw making work. It is the final presentation of the saw that is of any important relevance. I offer my apologies for any of the comments I raised on the use of retoothing machines. It was a lack of good judgement on my behalf.

regards Stewie;

[Heavansabove]

A few thoughts

I love the tangs on my needle files. They work great in the cast iron handles, but one of these days I'm going to make myself a deluxe handle out of some exotic wood and bronze specifically for those files.
Jewellers Suppliers sell plastic handles for needle files that more or less work, they are fiddly.

If it's a Grobet or F.Dick or Vallorbe or Glardon needle file then it is made by Glardon in Switzerland, with whatever badge is required for that day. There are more than likely other brands that can be included here. In short, if it's a good quality needle file, with a round tang that has two knurlings on it, then it comes from Glardon. If it is any other kind of saw file then it is either:
1. made in Portugal by Tome Feteira and branded as Bahco
2. made in France by Liogier
3. Made in India China, Mexico, Honduras or Brazil. Possibly the Philippines (and that includes all Pferd files - Indian).
If it has a black printed logo etc - highly likely to be of Indian descent (especially if the printing is lousy). Note that's "descent" not "decent".
If the country is printed on it without the words "Made In" then it wasn't. Simply marketed from that country (if that).
In short... be suspicious
Bahco have their own factory in Portugal, in Vila do Conde. TOMÉ FÈTEIRA is in Vieira de Leiria, and makes much more than files; they are also owned by the Austrian company I. Braun Sohne File Company (brand Blu(-)dan).
Matthew of Workshop Heaven in the UK informed me that Bahco use Sandvik steel, Joel Moskowitz thought Bahco used Indian steel (which might be sourced through Sandvik of course).


I came across quite a few 6xx , 7x & 7xx NOS K&F files that work fairly well. (Made in Brazil ) but still better than the others. AT $1.00 each I couldn't not take a chance on them. The quality control was obviously not the best. Once in a while I will get a bad one.
I have some of these as well, NOS made 20 years ago, the one I tried worked fine, perhaps the quality of off-shored production started off ok, after all they were selling against USA made files.

As for Bahco saw files and hardware shops, I tried a couple, they did not stock them, however Hardware & General at Dural are prepared to supply them – as single files, cost $13-14 per file, i.e. rrp; I did not raise the matter, but they might do a deal for volume, certainly helpful people. However I have more than adequate stocks of almost all files, so not a personal issue. When last in USA visiting sons I did stock up on NOS files, and when I figure out what my requirements are, I will offer excess for sale. I have very few 4” XX-Slim files unfortunately, really not enough for my use.

Prices (all below are Aus$) for Bahco, where product is available, are interesting…
Australia
KL Tools (online) saw files $13.17 to $14.30, Millsaw file 10” Bastard $18.25
Pacman indicated VEK charge $11 (in a box of 10), which represents around 15-20% discount for a box. THis is the best deal, at least for a group buy
BigRedToolBox, eBay out of UK, including postage $14.79 to $16.61 (limited range)
UK
Workshop Heaven $13.27 to $15.00 – excluding VAT, but + postage, priced higher than Australia, both pre- and post-tax
USA
Auto Tool World (as Pacman says, very inconsistent business performance judging by reviews, and perhaps more trouble than they are worth), no shipping to Australia $5.51 to $9.45, Millsaw 10” Bastard $7.11

Michael Merlo (azmica90405 on eBay) possesses, he says, tonnes of NOS saw files, and I have acquired some from him – very nice guy, and he ships to Australia (I did not need to use this service). Prices each, by the box, range from US$6 - $10, with free postage in US. His charges for postage to Australia are very reasonable, and you can get more than one box of files into a fixed rate box (small is 4 lbs, which is up to 5 boxes of 6” files, the 20lb box holds up to 25 boxes of files). What he sells though is limited in range. He certainly gets high prices for restored and sharpened saws.

Cheers
Peter

[rob streeper]

Your comment about jewelry tool suppliers reminded me of Otto Frei - expensive but great service and a nice range of needle files.

http://www.ottofrei.com/Three-Square/

[FenceFurniture]

Michael Merlo......His charges for postage to Australia are very reasonable, and you can get more than one box of files into a fixed rate box (small is 4 lbs, which is up to 5 boxes of 6” files, the 20lb box holds up to 25 boxes of files). They could be sent to my Shipito address if anyone wanted to get some.

[D.W.]

D.C, Google the supplier you mentioned for Bahco. Given his reviews and my experience I would encourage others to support individuals like Isaac.

FF, I got a quote from VEK on a box. Doesn't matter which size of saw file a box of 10 is $110

I missed this. I'm assuming DC was meant to be DW (me?).

I've never had an issue ordering from auto tool world. Whatever troubles they may have delivering other things, it hasn't been a problem with files. That said, the files actually come directly from williams tool in a matter of days (snap on to those of us here in the US). I don't think auto tool world does anything other than drop ship - as in they take the order and charge my card, and snap on sends me the files.

The only catch is because they're drop shipping (or williams tool is doing the shipping), you have to get them in boxes of 10. I can't see a reason to switch from someone / some business who has provided me good service at a good price.

I don't know Isaac, but I've seen enough good feedback to say that if someone told me they wanted less than a box in the US, I'd suggest they go to isaac for those files. If someone told me they wanted a lot of files, I'd point them to ATW. In the us, we have basically no risk if purchasing with a credit card.

It's a shame you can't get files as inexpensively as we can in the US, but that's just the breaks sometimes, I guess.

Drop shipping does have a cost advantage, but certainly if you don't like what you get, the retailer never had it in the first place and many of the drop shippers aren't set up to provide much customer service (which is probably why ATW has all of the negative feedback). You take that risk if you're like me and consider cost on consumables to be fairly important. But like I said, the risk has never stung me, either.

[Ron Bontz]

OK.SO am I slow or what? I received my Grobet needle files the other day only to be surprised they said "Grobet USA on the box instead of Grobet Swiss. Different looking box as well. Being a bit frustrated lately, among other things, I contacted a vendor I have bought from before questioning the quality of these files. After some back and forth emails I got this. "Grobet recently merged with an Italian firm to manufacture all their needle and Swiss Pattern tang Files" "Stock is currently mixed and you could get Swiss or Italian on any Grobet brand Swiss Pattern file."
Has anyone tried the Grobet USA, Made in Italy needle files? At least they didn't say "Made in India" :~

[FenceFurniture]

At least they didn't say "Made in India" :~Heh heh. I doubt that any marketer in the world would proudly lay claim to that doubtful honour......:;

[FenceFurniture]

"Grobet recently merged with an Italian firm to manufacture all their needle and Swiss Pattern tang Files" :~Thinking about that, it means that now Grobet USA is marketing Swiss Pattern files that are made in Italy. Talk about multi cultural....


The information that I've had so far is that there are only 3 file factories left in Europe (plus very minor player Stahl Willie as mentioned before). However, a Euro company that was previously a manufacturer, but is now a marketer (of Indian files, naturally) has told me that there is another European factory. I have no reason to doubt him, and that might just be Corradi, in Italy. It may just be that Grobet and Corradi have joined forces. The clues are as follows:

1. www.corradishop.com (http://www.corradishop.com) is a USA based online retailer. On the home page they say "All our products are Italian made" and some other chest beating.
2. On this page (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_13&products_id=27) it talks about their needle files, and one of them is 200mm long


Unfortunately, they don't really know what they are talking about though. If you look at any of the sharpening file pages, and I will take Extra Slim (http://www.corradishop.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_10&products_id=19) as the example, they say that they are "3 Square Saw Files" which is bollocks. A 3 Sq file does not have the edges cut, hence 3 Sq faces. For example, a triangular needle file is 3 Sq, which is why they have such sharp corners.

Furthermore, the files only have a minor taper right at the tip, unlike the proper taper of years gone by:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273666&d=1371866250

and compared to two new files:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=274406&d=1372218051

[D.W.]

Those look (the two outside) like the grobet files that I got, with teeth missing on the edges and not just relieved in a regular pattern.

Of course, not all of mine looked "as good" as the two in the picture.

It's a shame you guys don't get the bahcos for the price we do, as I was reminded how wonderful they are reshaping the teeth in a 5 point rip saw this weekend. With a file that has already reshaped the teeth of two other saws and is still cutting fast and quietly. The only gripe I have of them is that the corners are fairly plump, but that probably helps their longevity and in a large rip saw, it won't make a difference.

[FenceFurniture]

Those look (the two outside) like the grobet files that I got, with teeth missing on the edges and not just relieved in a regular pattern. Pretty sure that one of them was indeed a Grobet USA. The other one might have been an F.Dick, but there's an exceptionally good reason why the two look identical.......


It's a shame you guys don't get the bahcos for the price we doWe don't get anything for the same prices as you do.....not even close.....except for Aussie made tools.

[Heavansabove]

I was shaping an 11 ppi rip saw (a rip saw is 28-30", and half rip is 26", so this was more like an eighth rip or a Chest Rip perhaps) the other day with a 6" XX Slim K & F made in Brazil 20 years ago. File worked reasonably well - one file edge toothed, shaped and sharpenened a 16.5" saw (0.034 - 0.40" thick plate), and there is plenty of life left on the edge. I did find some resistance in the file cutting smoothly after a while, however when I decided to emphasise the back of the tooth when finalising the shaping, and sharpening, I experienced a much smoother and more predictable filing. Stewie and MarvW both recommend this approach for dealing with larger flats, for me seems to work well for all flats.

I am reasonably impressed with the K & F - and the rest of the files in the box looks pretty consistent as well, perhaps offshore manufacture started off ok (Starrett in Brazil were ok years ago I understand, and even in Scotland:doh:).

Cheers
Peter

[Heavansabove]

A couple of pictures of the K & F. By 20 years ago when this was made, Nicholson had been making files in Brazil for over 20 years by this time.

342426342427342428

[FenceFurniture]

Wow, that's a rough blank grind Peter. Essentially makes it a double cut. At least the grind marks are parallel.....

[IanW]

Wow, that's a rough blank grind Peter. Essentially makes it a double cut. At least the grind marks are parallel.....
In the ist pic, the marks are so deep & so regular, I thought they must be intentional. However, in the second pic, they are not so deep, far from regular, & certainly don't look like they are deliberate grooves...

[Heavansabove]

Yes, looks poor under magnification, however the file works ok, so perhaps it works as a double cut. Without magnification I see only a smooth surface (how bad can my eyes get?).

Now for a 6" X-slim Baiter, perhaps my camera macro facility is too good?
342440
and an Oberg mill file (pre-1970). After 45+ years in paper, hardly surprising some of it is rubbing off on the file.
342441
and another Oberg 8" Slim of similar vintage
342447

[FenceFurniture]

Yes, there are very few who do a proper, smooth grind.

One example was a Liogier Needle:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=270786&d=1370156153

and a Vallorbe (I think it is, anyway)
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273418&d=1371712375

As I recall, I'm yet to see a decent grind on any file of any type, above needle size.

[rob streeper]

Files for hardness testing arrived today.

342925

I'll try to get the packs of new files to the other testers by the end of the week.

[D.W.]

Many topics going on here at one time now. I ordered some more files from auto tool world this weekend. Saturday to be exact. I got shipping notice yesterday, but no tracking number (which is SOP for a lot of drop shippers here, they forward the order to the shipper but never have interest in getting tracking back to let you know - it's not really important). We'll see if they show up timely, it's been a while since I ordered from them.

As usual, I ordered 10. Didn't expect to ever have to order from them again, but I have a rash of rip saws that I want to get rid of and enough of them have bad teeth that I'll probably be down to half a dozen 7 slims when I get done. I am still enamored with the bahcos, though - on an atkins saw, which shed a tooth overset by a prior sharpener, I was able to shape teeth, then unfortunately have that tooth cut loose and full depth cut another set of teeth in 2/3rds of the saw length all with the same file.

The cost here for 10 7 inch slim files (my go to for 4 1/2 - 5 1/2 point rip saws) was $63 shipped.

[IanW]

......The cost here for 10 7 inch slim files (my go to for 4 1/2 - 5 1/2 point rip saws) was $63 shipped.

$6.30 a file at your door - 'Arf yer luck, DW! I just ordered a batch of 5" DESTs, and they cost me more than double that each, even shipping was excessive, I thought. What you have to swallow when you are desperate & in a hurry. :C

I'll see what these are like, but I sure hope they are better than the files I was using yesterday. They are supposed to be DEST, but the edges were so fat (& variable!), and they were so brittle, I was having real trouble sharpening a 12 tpi x-cut to anything I would call presentable.. :~

Cheers,

[D.W.]

Shame the quality is that bad. I guess some places have no pride. The edges on the bahcos are a bit fat, but that probably makes them a bit more durable. And they are fat in an even and consistent way. I haven't seen any xx slim tapers here other than 6 inch, though, and have had to go elsewhere for anything smaller and xx slim - not much of that is great.

I never considered using a jeweler's file until it was brought up on here, but have a half dozen small xx slim files left. I hope they last a long time, my days of getting saws to pick good ones out are over - i hope.

[IanW]

....I never considered using a jeweler's file until it was brought up on here, but have a half dozen small xx slim files left. I hope they last a long time, my days of getting saws to pick good ones out are over - i hope.

David, I first used the 'jewellers' files quite a while back, when I had a rush of blood to the head & tried making some very fine-toothed saws. A 4" DEST file just doesn't cut it, so to speak, when you get into the 20-25 tpi stratosphere (it's ok, I've since realised the error of my ways & renounced such conceited foolery! :U). The Groberts are good to very good files, they cut well, wear well, & have consistent edge dimensions, so it wasn't long before I started using them on larger teeth, up to 15 tpi, as the availability & quality of smaller saw files went south. I hesitated to use them for anything larger, because of a fear that the sharp gullets might be too prone to stress cracks. In fact, there was quite a discussion on the topic a few years ago when I first mentioned I was using the needle files. I was warned my saw teeth would all crack off in short order!

Well, I'm relieved to report that stress-cracked teeth have NOT been a problem. And in case you think I don't put my saw teeth in harm's way, they are expected to cut woods that probably have no parallel up your way. For e.g., one of the woods I like to work with is called "Bull Oak" (Allocasaurina leuhmanii), which is reputed to be the hardest wood in the world! Another Forumite (planemaker) says he uses needle files for all teeth from 12 tpi & smaller, & I think will go that way myself, unless I can start sourcing some decent small 'regular' saw files. Trying to cut teeth or sharpen a saw using a file that starts shedding its cutting edges on the first or second swipe makes it darned-near impossible to keep strokes even & regular! By comparison, the needle files cut smoothly & evenly (& go on doing so for a decent length of time) - the difference is huge. The downside is they cost me nearly twice as much, each. But given they a) do the job better, and b) last at least twice as long on average, I guess it's a no-brainer. :doh: Unless the files I just ordered turn out to be a good deal better than the last lot, it'll be the last lot of 'regular' small files I buy.... :U

Cheers,

[D.W.]

Makes sense if they have consistent corners, because nothing else seems to here in small files. At least not of good quality. The bahcos are the inexpensive option here for anything with teeth of reasonable size, but obviously given Isaac's list of files he uses, nothing really satisfies in the smalls.

[D.W.]

Many topics going on here at one time now. I ordered some more files from auto tool world this weekend. Saturday to be exact. I got shipping notice yesterday, but no tracking number (which is SOP for a lot of drop shippers here, they forward the order to the shipper but never have interest in getting tracking back to let you know - it's not really important). We'll see if they show up timely, it's been a while since I ordered from them.

As usual, I ordered 10. Didn't expect to ever have to order from them again, but I have a rash of rip saws that I want to get rid of and enough of them have bad teeth that I'll probably be down to half a dozen 7 slims when I get done. I am still enamored with the bahcos, though - on an atkins saw, which shed a tooth overset by a prior sharpener, I was able to shape teeth, then unfortunately have that tooth cut loose and full depth cut another set of teeth in 2/3rds of the saw length all with the same file.

The cost here for 10 7 inch slim files (my go to for 4 1/2 - 5 1/2 point rip saws) was $63 shipped.

I did get my files yesterday. They again came direct from williams tool with "auto tool world" listed as the customer and me as an alternate shipping address (i.e., they're drop ship).

Thankfully, ATW is using bahco's part numbers for the files so that when williams gets the order, it should be pretty difficult for them to get crossed up and send the wrong size files (it hasn't happened to me in about 6 orders).

They come from Georgia here, which is not close to me, but a couple of days away UPS.

If I was smart, I'd get more sizes at a time, but they're not expensive enough to worry about it and I'm trying to get out of the mode of buying every good full plated high quality saw I see for a decent price.

Most importantly, though, the bahco files that came yesterday are beautifully made with a very smooth blank, just like the others I've gotten. And cheap.