What happened to all _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

[planemaker]

those eager forum members keen to make some backsaws. Ian & RayG were most generous when requested to run special workshops; the supply & distribution of saw plate & brass back was organised. Still a lack of response in completed backsaws.. :C:C:C:C:C:C:C:C

Stewie;

[DSEL74]

Life happened to me.. I have moved and a shed was supposed to give me the ability to do some work unfortunately fixing tools, and machines and setting up the shed seems to be an endless task that goes around in circles and not producing any work. I did manage to cut a few totes and tooth some plate but no more finished saws to date.

There were very few from the workshop who showed their finished work on here but many took up more materials so one of three things is happening.
1. The first was so bad they wanted to bin it and make another attempt before showing.
2. They made a saw they are happy with but don't believe it up to standards shown by other accomplished makers on here so are self conscious posting.
3. The stuff is sitting on the shelf with good intentions collecting dust.



I would love to see the results good or bad.

[doug3030]

I was on of the participants in the course and I thought i was a great opportunity to learn how to do it. I learned a lot and I also found out that I already had a lot of the skills needed, but just did not know how to apply them to sawmaking. The course was definitely worthwhile.

But ..... having gained the skills does not mean that I am going to apply them straight away. I have health issues which dictate what I can do and how long I can do it for in one go. I am currently working on making my workshop more ergonomically friendly to my medical problems.

When this is done, I will be able to do a lot more, and keep doing it for longer periods. I have almost completed getting all the machinery on wheels so I can position them easily without hurting myself, and I am in the early stages of building my workbench. Once these are done then it will be time to go back and apply the skills I learned on the course and make the handsaws I will need for the type of work I have in mind.

I have enough sawplate, brass backs and handles to make as many saws as I need and probably a couple more, just sitting there, well protected, not gathering dust at all, for when I need them.

So it just a matter of priorities. But hang on, I am going to need a big backsaw to cut the dovetails for the tailvise and the aprons around the benchtop ... :? Now what am I going to do first. It seems no matter what order you create your shed in, you need the thing you are working towards to get to the destination. :banghead:

[Chesand]

I also enjoyed the course at Holmesglen and did put a photo of my small dovetail saw on the forum. I have the materials to make a second saw but other things such as an 8 week overseas trip and health problems with family members intervened during 2014 to the extent that I did very little woodwork of any description. I have managed to cut and shape the handle and every time I look at the materials in their tray, I think "I must get onto that" but it just never seems to happen. Hopefully in 2015.

[shedbound]

341025341026341027
This is my unfinished efforts, the bottom one with the blackwood handle is from the workshop at Holmesglen, and the smaller saw was done at home from materials that Dale and Ray supplied.
I never did the finishing touches as I got a bit disheartened with a few aspects, such as countersinking the nuts as I only had a brace and bit which is kinda hard to get an accurate depth. I have since bought some forsteners and a counterbore but used neither on saw handles. The handle is some Drooping Dheoak. it is a 15tpi rip.
I have enough materials to do a few more thanks to Ron and Ray but havn't yet put any thought into doing anything with it yet.

[planemaker]

Hi shedbound. Thank you for the update . Nice work. :2tsup:

regards Stewie;

[IanW]

Well it does take one or two saws to get to Stewie's level of sawmaking... :; I can fully understand how life gets in the way of these projects - even though I'm (supposed to be) "retired", there never seems to be enough hours in any given day....:U

The basic metalwork & woodwork isn't too big a challenge if you take your time (having suitable tools like a Forstner or a countersinking bit is a definite plus, too!). Perfect sharpening is a skill that doesn't come overnight, unless you are gifted with exceptional hand-eye coordination, but you should get pretty tolerable results after a few tries. I don't know if this is encouraging or discouraging, but I'll confess I still struggle with crosscut teeth finer than 15 tpi. They are decidedly fiddly, and my ageing eyesight definitely doesn't help!

But it's hard to make a complete mess, because almost everything can be re-done or re-visited & improved as your skill increases. Even your first saw should cut ok, and there's nothing quite like the feeling of using tools you've made for yourself, imo. Or the convenience of custom-making a saw for a specific purpose. So don't rush it, stick at it, & you'll eventually get where you'd like to be.... :)

Cheers,

[MarvW]

Well it does take one or two saws to get to Stewie's level of sawmaking... :; I can fully understand how life gets in the way of these projects - even though I'm (supposed to be) "retired", there never seems to be enough hours in any given day....:U

The basic metalwork & woodwork isn't too big a challenge if you take your time (having suitable tools like a Forstner or a countersinking bit is a definite plus, too!). Perfect sharpening is a skill that doesn't come overnight, unless you are gifted with exceptional hand-eye coordination, but you should get pretty tolerable results after a few tries. I don't know if this is encouraging or discouraging, but I'll confess I still struggle with crosscut teeth finer than 15 tpi. They are decidedly fiddly, and my ageing eyesight definitely doesn't help!

But it's hard to make a complete mess, because almost everything can be re-done or re-visited & improved as your skill increases. Even your first saw should cut ok, and there's nothing quite like the feeling of using tools you've made for yourself, imo. Or the convenience of custom-making a saw for a specific purpose. So don't rush it, stick at it, & you'll eventually get where you'd like to be.... :)

Cheers,

Hi Ian,

A few thoughts on tooth count and crosscut teeth. I have joined with those who draw the line regarding how small to file new crosscut teeth. I limit the size at 15PPI and will avoid teeth that small if possible. 15PPI and smaller will be filed rip and will be used for making crosscuts if necessary. If splintering is a concern, before making the cut, score where the cut is to be made with a marking knife or similar tool.

I find that when I attempt to file crosscut 15PPI and smaller, my accuracy is not up to standard. I like to see what the file is actually doing as I file a tooth. When I file the fleam angle on a 15PPI tooth, it's a lot by feel and guessing and hoping. When I'm done with a saw like that, it doesn't cut any better than if I had filed it rip with a little more rake angle, about 10 degrees.

[rob streeper]

Hi Ian,

A few thoughts on tooth count and crosscut teeth. I have joined with those who draw the line regarding how small to file new crosscut teeth. I limit the size at 15PPI and will avoid teeth that small if possible. 15PPI and smaller will be filed rip and will be used for making crosscuts if necessary. If splintering is a concern, before making the cut, score where the cut is to be made with a marking knife or similar tool.

I find that when I attempt to file crosscut 15PPI and smaller, my accuracy is not up to standard. I like to see what the file is actually doing as I file a tooth. When I file the fleam angle on a 15PPI tooth, it's a lot by feel and guessing and hoping. When I'm done with a saw like that, it doesn't cut any better than if I had filed it rip with a little more rake angle, about 10 degrees.

Hi again Marv,

I have also found that higher tooth count saws often work better when filed rip, particularly on blades/plates that are 0.015" thick. The small teeth seem to become dull faster with fleam angles > 15o if used on the harder exotic types of wood. I've been filing my dovetail saws with rake angles starting at ~8-12o rip for plates 1" tall or so, ~12o rip for plates up to about 2" tall and ~15o rip for plates up to 3' tall. I've also made a couple of closed handle short blade tenon type saws having 0.015" that are around 4-4.5" tall and find that the more relaxed rakes prevent chattering, particularly on the harder wood species.

[MarvW]

Hi again Marv,

I have also found that higher tooth count saws often work better when filed rip, particularly on blades/plates that are 0.015" thick. The small teeth seem to become dull faster with fleam angles > 15o if used on the harder exotic types of wood. I've been filing my dovetail saws with rake angles starting at ~8-12o rip for plates 1" tall or so, ~12o rip for plates up to about 2" tall and ~15o rip for plates up to 3' tall. I've also made a couple of closed handle short blade tenon type saws having 0.015" that are around 4-4.5" tall and find that the more relaxed rakes prevent chattering, particularly on the harder wood species.

Hi Rob,

10 degree rake on rip teeth has been about as relaxed as I have done. The chatter is annoying, even more than annoying. I've experienced it even on softer hardwoods. Depends on the coarseness of the grain. The thinner the plate, the better and faster it will cut with the more relaxed rake angles, as I'm sure you already know. I'm at a point where I don't want to make a backsaw with a blade more than .025 thick. If I or a customer needs a tenon saw for extra large tenons, I'd rather use a regular handsaw and convert the teeth to rip.

[IanW]

Another case of convergent evolution! All three of us seem to have reached some very similar conclusions on small teeth. I certainly agree that once you go past 15tpi or so, it makes very little difference using crosscut vs. rip teeth across the grain in the majority of situations. You can often make more significant differences to performance by altering rake angles & set, imo.

This is not a new concept, I first saw it advocated by Tage Frid in a very early FWW, but being naturally a bit sceptical, I had to prove it to myself over quite a long period. For example, I used to use two saws for dovetailing, a 15 tpi rip for the long-grain cuts, and a 15tpi crosscut for the few cross-grain cuts. Being a lazy efficient sort of chap, I would often use the rip for all cuts, & eventually realized I couldn't see any significant deterioration in quality in any but exceptional circumstances. And what about turning-saw blades, which seem to be universally made in rip configuration? I tried making a few different styles, but found that 15tpi blades with between 5 & 8 degrees of rake cut aggressively with or across the grain, with no discernible difference in rate of cut & little if any, difference in blow-out on the exit side, compared with x-cut styles. But rip pattern blades are an awful lot easier to make & maintain than x-cut!

I hadn't really thought about the durability of 'chisel' rip teeth vs pointy x-cut teeth, but now that Rob has mentioned it, I can see that it could be an important consideration, particularly in some of our hard, siliceous woods down here. However, I think there are a few situations where crosscut teeth, even little ones, are superior, and one of these is starting cuts that have to be deadly accurate along a line. It may be just me, but I find I can do this easier with a (well-sharpened) crosscut profile. My theory is that the points slice in better, whereas the chisel points of a rip profile have more tendency to skate. I certainly concur with the view that small crosscut teeth are an absolute bear to get right. I've been known to file off & re-do a set of fine teeth more than once, before I had them to my satisfaction! I couldn't do any teeth finer than 5 tpi without my head-band magnifier, and I would probably use it even for a large ripsaw, these days. :C

As you are well aware, there are multiple factors that have to be weighed when deciding on the tooth geometry for a given saw, and some are in conflict. User preferences, the main task it is expected to do, and the type of wood it will be expected to deal with all have to be weighed up. For the wood, hardness, stringy softwood or chippy hardwood, average MC and oiliness plus any other odd characteristics can all have a big bearing on the matter and will determine the best rake angles and amount of set. But since few people will use a saw for just one task in a single wood species, it ultimately boils down to a set of compromises. I sometimes think saw-making is much more art than science! :U

Cheers,

[Heavansabove]

Here is a saw I made late last year.

341608341609

I decided to experiment with the Glen-Drake toothing, ie with no teeth at toe and heel (12" plate, 0.020", 9.5" of teeth, 5° rake, no fleam). I don't have this saw any more, but on testing I like it - makes the saw very easy to start (16ppi which is past my eye limit I think).

I also decided to round over the top of the spine, except for the portion inside the handle. A lot of work compared to a simple chamfer, and a couple of errant cuts. I also squeezed the slot in a 4" vise - the biggest I have - carefully and it held well, and the plate stayed straight.

Spent a lot more time on this handle than I usually do (I like to see evidence of tool marks, at least that is my story and I am sticking to it), and I doubt I will do this too often. Probably 8 levels of shellac and sanding before waxing. The 1/4 sawn Silky Oak is pretty easy to muck up, but as I have quite a bit of it, I will probably keep on using it - I might even get bettter at working it. I finished the handle 1" thick, which pushed the limits of the saw screws a bit.

A few more in progress...

Cheers
Peter

[rob streeper]

Here is a saw I made late last year.

341608341609

I decided to experiment with the Glen-Drake toothing, ie with no teeth at toe and heel (12" plate, 0.020", 9.5" of teeth, 5° rake, no fleam). I don't have this saw any more, but on testing I like it - makes the saw very easy to start (16ppi which is past my eye limit I think).

I also decided to round over the top of the spine, except for the portion inside the handle. A lot of work compared to a simple chamfer, and a couple of errant cuts. I also squeezed the slot in a 4" vise - the biggest I have - carefully and it held well, and the plate stayed straight.

Spent a lot more time on this handle than I usually do (I like to see evidence of tool marks, at least that is my story and I am sticking to it), and I doubt I will do this too often. Probably 8 levels of shellac and sanding before waxing. The 1/4 sawn Silky Oak is pretty easy to muck up, but as I have quite a bit of it, I will probably keep on using it - I might even get bettter at working it. I finished the handle 1" thick, which pushed the limits of the saw screws a bit.

A few more in progress...

Cheers
Peter

Interesting, I learn something new every day.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob,

10 degree rake on rip teeth has been about as relaxed as I have done. The chatter is annoying, even more than annoying. I've experienced it even on softer hardwoods. Depends on the coarseness of the grain. The thinner the plate, the better and faster it will cut with the more relaxed rake angles, as I'm sure you already know. I'm at a point where I don't want to make a backsaw with a blade more than .025 thick. If I or a customer needs a tenon saw for extra large tenons, I'd rather use a regular handsaw and convert the teeth to rip.

Hi Marv. As you would be aware within my own saw making work, I have never used of fleam on saw plate of 0.025 gauge or finer, instead relying on the use to use a more relaxed rake angle, an increase in the tpi/ppi count, and controlling the amount of set applied to make the saw teeth more compatible for x grain work. Saw plate above 0.025, more commonly associated with non backed hand saws, does require a different approach to the use of fleam.

Its excellent to see more of your presence on this forum site Marv.

regards Stewie;

[MarvW]

Here is a saw I made late last year.

341608341609

I decided to experiment with the Glen-Drake toothing, ie with no teeth at toe and heel (12" plate, 0.020", 9.5" of teeth, 5° rake, no fleam). I don't have this saw any more, but on testing I like it - makes the saw very easy to start (16ppi which is past my eye limit I think).

I also decided to round over the top of the spine, except for the portion inside the handle. A lot of work compared to a simple chamfer, and a couple of errant cuts. I also squeezed the slot in a 4" vise - the biggest I have - carefully and it held well, and the plate stayed straight.

Spent a lot more time on this handle than I usually do (I like to see evidence of tool marks, at least that is my story and I am sticking to it), and I doubt I will do this too often. Probably 8 levels of shellac and sanding before waxing. The 1/4 sawn Silky Oak is pretty easy to muck up, but as I have quite a bit of it, I will probably keep on using it - I might even get bettter at working it. I finished the handle 1" thick, which pushed the limits of the saw screws a bit.

A few more in progress...

Cheers
Peter

Hi Peter,

Nice job on your saw. I see you located the hang of the handle comparatively low. I have found that the location of the hand grip in relation to the tooth edge can vary quite a bit and still allow for a good feel to the user.

I like the toothless space at the toe end of a backsaw. I use it on most of the few saws I have made. However, I don't see a need for it at the heel end. Wade does it at both ends because his blades can be flipped so his saws can be used as a pull saw. I think his toothless length is more than necessary. It's about 2-1/2" at both ends. I customer of mine sent me his Wade saw and had me retooth it without the toothless feature.

On this saw plate, the toothless length is 1-3/8".
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uXd6_54-1xU/VG0cgNHRuEI/AAAAAAAAJFU/Rq-Tk6Z9ABU/w800-h600-no/IMG_3458.JPG

[MarvW]

Hi Marv. As you would be aware within my own saw making work, I have never used of fleam on saw plate of 0.025 gauge or finer, instead relying on the use to use a more relaxed rake angle, an increase in the tpi/ppi count, and controlling the amount of set applied to make the saw teeth more compatible for x grain work. Saw plate above 0.025, more commonly associated with non backed hand saws, does require a different approach to the use of fleam.

Its excellent to see more of your presence on this forum site Marv.

regards Stewie;

Hey Stewie, good to see ya... :)

I like the fleam challenge. I will use it on a 14PPI, .025 plate without hesitation. It is such a joy to saw with a properly tuned crosscut tooth profile regardless of tooth count.

I have some more thoughts that have been plaguing me. I've been thinking that it might be practical to make two saws and only one handle. The handle would be interchangeable between a rip and a crosscut, both being of the same plate size. This of course isn't an original idea, but I've never seen it applied directly to a pair of backsaws. What do you think?

[planemaker]

Hi Marv. Not sure. It would certainly require a design that's compatible to a quick change of saw plates.

regards Stewie;

[MarvW]

Hi Marv. Not sure. It would certainly require a design that's compatible to a quick change of saw plates.

regards Stewie;

Stewie,

I have such a design, a saw that I made using my bottom mortise feature, with the handle screwed only to the back. I used two screws, but it can be accomplished using only one screw.

Here's a picture of what I have now.

This style of handle can be attached to the back with only one screw. The bottom mortise is about 2-1/2" long. A screw in the center and the back snugged up against the bottom of the mortise, the handle would not rock. Another thought, would be, one 10-32 screw down through the top, into a 1/4" thick back would be easier to do and be more effective. I'm suddenly getting into the mood to build another saw... actually two saws/one handle.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w0KK8uUbcFg/UZ4a0BjuPlI/AAAAAAAAH7I/1Pk7ZaZmSQw/w800-h600-no/IMG_3086.JPG

[Ron Bontz]

Needs an ogee on the back of the plate. :):):)

[MarvW]

Needs an ogee on the back of the plate. :):):)

I purposely didn't put an ogee on it. I was going for simple and smooth, uninterrupted lines.

Keep'n it simple. :D

Marv

[planemaker]

Sharpening a hand saw is definitely not one of Shannon Rogers strengths. :no:

Marv, and other experienced saw sharpening colleagues. Do not view this podcast. :)(

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/sharpening-a-rip-saw/

Stewie;

[Pac man]

To be fair 6 years ago when he made the video he introduced it by writing:
" I hope this episode sparks a lot of criticism as I am a real novice to saw sharpening and I would love some input on my technique and how I can improve.

[planemaker]

Hi Pac man. You would expect better from a guy who is charging a fee to teach others how to use, and properly maintain their hand tools.

http://www.handtoolschool.net/learn-to-use-hand-tools/

[MarvW]

Hi Pac man. You would expect better from a guy who is charging a fee to teach others how to use, and properly maintain their hand tools.

http://www.handtoolschool.net/learn-to-use-hand-tools/

He should title his saw filing video..... "How NOT to file a rip saw". I'll give him an "A" for effort, but an "F" for leading people astray.

When he did his second test cut, the number of strokes he used should have cut that board the full length.

He was using a Disston D8 Thumb hole saw that was designed for a right handed person. He is left handed. That handle is uncomfortable for a right hand person, but much more uncomfortable for a leftie.

It is always very disappointing to see a video made by an amateur wanna-bee saw filer. Beginners will watch it, not knowing how it should be done, but because it's on the internet, they will tend to believe what they are seeing.

I once saw a Youtube video of a guy who was demonstrating how to file a large tooth rip saw with the tooth edge at least a half inch above the jaws of a a wiggly vise. He did the filing holding the file with only one hand and filed all the teeth during a single pass. Screeching was all you heard. It was sad. There will be people who will watch that video and think it's the right way to do it.

[IanW]

Finally!

When I was making some other saws, this week, I did something so idiotic, I still can't believe it. I was fitting a blade to its handle, and somehow managed to round the wrong end! It was only when I was about to mark out the holes for drilling that I saw I'd made myself a pull saw. :doh:

I could have jointed off the teeth and recut them, of course, but that seemed like a waste, so instead I rummaged through my box of saw handle material & found a Blackwood carcase-saw handle (a more or less straight copy of an old Disston I liked). I'd used this as one of my demos at the w'shop. It came home half roughed-out, got tossed in a box of handle blanks & spare handle wood, & there it has sat for the last 18 months. So I decided to make the mistake a feature, and rounded both ends of the saw plate. A bit more work on the handle and there you have it:

343990

The vital statistics: 12 " x 3" x 0.025" blade, 12 tpi, crosscut. I still have to sharpen it, so can't comment on how well it cuts, yet.

If it hadn't been for my mistake, that half-finished handle may have languished for another year or two, so I suppose every cloud has its silver lining..... :U

The wood is rather pale for A. melanoxylon, but it has that beautiful lustre & golden highlights that many Acacias have, and a subtle fiddleback figure, though you need to hold it in your hand in good light to see that....

Cheers,

[DSEL74]

Ian, I quite like the rounded front. Although I think the rounding of the spine should also be on a similar angle.


P.S. Is your mobile number still the same? I sent you a thank you msg not sure if you got it.

[IanW]

Ian, I quite like the rounded front. Although I think the rounding of the spine should also be on a similar angle.
P.S. Is your mobile number still the same? I sent you a thank you msg not sure if you got it.

Hi Dale, my intention was to make two very distinct curves, each being a feature on it's own, but looking at the picture, I see what you mean. They seem to compete, rather than complement each other. I have to finish setting & sharpening it later today, so might just make some 'adjustments'. Thanks for the suggestion. :2tsup:

Yes, my mobile # is the same, & yes, I got your text, thanks, but didn't see it until quite a few days after you sent it. :B I'm a very sporadic user of mobile phones, they don't work in my shed, so I only use it if I'm away from home (& even then forget to turn it on half the time)..... :U

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

Great saw Ian
As a close Swedish friend I've mine would say
It's not a fault it's a design feature
Matt

[planemaker]

Hi Ian. I quite like the way you have shaped the saw plate and the brass spine. Very classy. If I were to suggest any changes I think the shoulder height on the mortise spine fit is a little too low, and needs to be higher set.

Stewie;

[planemaker]

Hi Ian. Bearing in mind there is no right nor wrong approach. The following is a backsaw handle I just recently started working on. As you can see I have a preference to having a minimal step change along the top line of the mortise fit.

The handle wood is Burdekin Plum.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/burdekin%20plum%20tenon%20saw/_DSC0490_zpst9qfmrmj.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/burdekin%20plum%20tenon%20saw/_DSC0490_zpst9qfmrmj.jpg.html)

[IanW]

Hi Ian. Bearing in mind there is no right nor wrong approach. The following is a backsaw handle I just recently started working on. As you can see I have a preference to having a minimal step change along the top line of the mortise fit.


It seems we all like some aspects a bit different. :U

I tend to use the 'step' as a way of placing the handle, a deeper step if I want the handle a bit higher, for good 'ergonomics', or a smaller step if I want it lower. That handle of yours looks very similar to the one I just made, which was traced off a 1920s Disston.

Where did you stumble on the Burdiken plum? Someone gave me a piece of it years ago, thinking it must be hard, because it was so dense. As it happened, it was very easy to work & peeled beautifully off a skew! I've got a couple growing on my property, but the biggest is only about 150mm diam. at the base, so it might be a couple more years before I can get any saw handles out of it!
:;
Cheers,

[IanW]

OK, since this saw is one for me, and will be around for a while, I decided to try improving the line of the nose, as you suggested: 344060

Looks rather racy, now, but I think it does look better than my original concept.

After setting & sharpening, I gave it a few test runs and am pretty happy with it, it has a nice action. It's far better than the saw it will replace, which was one of my very early forays into sawmaking: 344059

When I made this saw, I was still slavishly copying handles I liked the look of, without enough thought as to how the saw would be used. I was only beginning to appreciate the importance of hang angles, and how it related to the most common usage of the saw. What I've got in this saw is a tenon saw alignment; you can see the grip is more vertical than that on the new saw: 344061

So the old saw went into the 'I'll deal with you later' drawer. I'll either convert it to a tenon saw by recutting its teeth to rip configuration, or I'll make a new handle and use the existing one for a tenon saw....

Cheers,

[planemaker]

Hi Ian . The handle shape I am using is early English origin. That shape has then undergone some small changes to suit my needs. I have then reworked the shape to give me 2 design options. The primary difference being the cheek size.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Ian,

You may try relaxing the rake angle rather than repositioning or remaking the handle.

Cheers,
Rob

[IanW]

Hi Ian,

You may try relaxing the rake angle rather than repositioning or remaking the handle.

Cheers,
Rob

Nope, Rob, I don't think that will solve my problem. When I made it, I intended this saw to be used mainly at bench top level, on a bench-hook, for e.g. With the grip at its current angle, it's just not comfortable to use that way. My wrist is twisted up, or I have to bend over more than is comfortable, to get my wrist in a neutral (& comfortable) position, and maintain the tooth line approximately parallel to the bench. The problem goes away if the saw is used a little higher up, as you usually do for a tenon saw. Relaxing the rake might make it easier to push, but it would still be an uncomfortable grip angle, and it would take longer to finish the job.... :;

Actually, I've found I have to change rake-angles a lot on a x-cut to make a noticeable difference to the action, unlike a ripsaw, where a few degrees difference can be quite noticeable, particularly in our bone-hard woods! But that's another discussion.

My unsatisfactory handle isn't a major problem, just a matter of deciding whether I want to make it into a tenon saw, by converting it from x-cut to rip, or, re-use the handle on a tenon saw blade, & make a new handle for the current blade. I'll decide when I next have a saw-making session, which may not happen for some time. :U

Cheers,

[Chesand]

At last, I have finished my second saw from the workshop about 18 months ago. I cheated and had the teeth cut professionally and still have to touch them up and set them. It is 12TPI carcase saw. Blackwood handles were rubbed with EEE and then Trad Wax. They are not up to the standard of others shown here but I am happy with the finished products as they are comfortable to use and cut very well.
347629347630
Shown here with its little brother that was made on the day. 347631

[planemaker]

Hi Chesand. Don't be too concerned about making comparisons with other saw makers work. The standard of work you have achieved so far, after only your 2nd backsaw build is highly commendable. Well done.

regards Stewie;

[Sam]

Chesand, Where did you get the teeth cut ?

[Chesand]

Hi Chesand. Don't be too concerned about making comparisons with other saw makers work. The standard of work you have achieved so far, after only your 2nd backsaw build is highly commendable. Well done.

regards Stewie;

Thanks, Stewie, for your comments.

I am more than happy with my results and after a quick going over with the file and setting yesterday it now cuts even better. Also, I managed to polish out most of the marks in the steel from where it had been sitting for some time so now looks better as well.

[Chesand]

Chesand, Where did you get the teeth cut ?

Northern Sharpening, 32 Trade Place, North Coburg. (off Newlands Rd) Phone 9350-4262

They would have set the teeth for me but I wanted to do that myself.

[planemaker]

Thanks, Stewie, for your comments.

I am more than happy with my results and after a quick going over with the file and setting yesterday it now cuts even better. Also, I managed to polish out most of the marks in the steel from where it had been sitting for some time so now looks better as well.

Hi Chesand. if you are contemplating making another backsaw, and wish to improve its presentation further, can I suggest you consider 2 changes.

The sides of the brass back mortise should be higher, so that there is no more than a 1/16 to 1/8" step down from the commencement of the birdsmouth.

The top line fit of the brass back looks best when it is level is slightly below the top height of this step. (example in the below photo)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/D8%20Heel%20Backsaw/DSC_0522_zpsyi3iqioj.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/D8%20Heel%20Backsaw/DSC_0522_zpsyi3iqioj.jpg.html)

Stewie;

[Simplicity]

Chesand
If I'm not being rude what did it cost to have the teeth cut..?
In one way ,that's quite clever considering the file debacle that's on at that moment.
Ie as you have done ,get the grunt work done if it is reasonable price and they know what there doing ,then do the fine tune your self at bench later .

[IanW]

Well, I suppose placement of the spine is really a matter of taste, rather than function, & tastes vary. :U Chesand chose a handle design with pretty small cheeks for the smaller saw, especially, which rather limits the depth for the spine slot, if he wanted to avoid having to put the bolt holes through the brass.

I think what might improve function or at least comfort, just a leeetle, would be to take a bit more off the edges of your grip, especially the top of the grip under the horn. This part sits in the web between thumb and forefinger, and I like to bring that down to quite a pronounced ellipse, which allows my thumb to tuck in very comfortably. I leave the middle of the grip more fulsome, because that's the bit that nestles into the ball of your hand and transfers the power to the saw. It's a bit hard to show this in a photo, you need to view the handle in the right light to see it clearly, but you might be able to make out what I'm blabbing about here: 347728

I took this shape from a very nice old pre-1920 handle that I liked. It as only after I started making handles myself that I realised why it felt so good in my hand.... :;

Cheers,

[IanW]

Chesand
If I'm not being rude what did it cost to have the teeth cut..?
In one way ,that's quite clever considering the file debacle that's on at that moment.
Ie as you have done ,get the grunt work done if it is reasonable price and they know what there doing ,then do the fine tune your self at bench later .

I agree, it's a sensible way to go for your first few saws. At least that's how I did it, so it must be! :;
The place where I had mine done charged me 10 bucks apiece, to tooth the blanks. I got 4 or 5 done at once, so maybe there was a bit of a discount, & it was a few years ago, now.

Once you get your confidence up a bit, and IF you can get your hands on some decent files, toothing is really the easiest part of the whole job. I can comfortably tooth a 10 inch, 12 tpi saw in 20 minutes, using a template to lay out the teeth. It only takes about 4 to 6 strokes of a file (depends on the length of the file) to cut that size tooth to depth. It looks like I can get a few more decent NOS files, so maybe they'll tide me over 'til someone starts making real files again.:roll:

Cheers,

[planemaker]

Hi Ian. I received an order during the week of 12 x (3 Square Needle Files/180 mm x Cut #3) Glardon Vallorbe, Swiss Made (Blue Box with yellow sticker on top). There has been no change in their quality.

Stewie;

[Simplicity]

I mostly agree with what Ian is saying .
I don't have the experience of Ian either( that's my disclaimer thingy thing for being a novice)
The reason I think ,it's a good idea to have the teeth cut out else were ,is to save those seeming harder to get good files .
For just sharping the teeth not hogging out the teeth .
Now I know ,it only takes say 6/7 strokes for a small tooth .
But the point I was trying to make ,was to preserve the precious file as much as possible .

[IanW]

Hi Ian. I received an order during the week of 12 x (3 Square Needle Files/180 mm x Cut #3) Glardon Vallorbe, Swiss Made (Blue Box with yellow sticker on top). There has been no change in their quality.

Stewie;

That's good to hear, Stewie. I used one of mine last week & thought it wore out rather more quickly than I expected, so I'm hoping it was just an outlier that slipped through, or I hadn't properly removed the work-hardened edge of the plate I was working on. Up til now, I've been very happy with them!

Cheers,

[Morbius]

I get the chance every now and then to do a little more on the handle of my S&J restoration project, but have found that my next challenge will be slotting the blade into the handle. I don't have a saw that will cut into the slot deep enough!

Craig

[IanW]

I mostly agree with what Ian is saying .
I don't have the experience of Ian either( that's my disclaimer thingy thing for being a novice)
The reason I think ,it's a good idea to have the teeth cut out else were ,is to save those seeming harder to get good files .
For just sharping the teeth not hogging out the teeth .
Now I know ,it only takes say 6/7 strokes for a small tooth .
But the point I was trying to make ,was to preserve the precious file as much as possible .

Yep, I hear you man. As an example, I completely destroyed a 5" DEST file the other day, toothing a 10" 12 tpi saw blade. I then used two sides of a second file to form & sharpen the (crosscut pattern) teeth. These files cost me about $8 each, bought by the box. So if you can get the same saw toothed for anything between $10 & $15, it's not a lot more than it would cost you for one of those files. I was just making the point that (with half-decent files!) the toothing part is very straightforward and easy to do pretty well.

It is indeed very sensible to save your best files for sharpening. For rip saws, the sharpening step is easy and doesn't stress the file much, but it's a good idea to do the sharpening steps with a clean, fresh corner - the better a file cuts, the easier it is to control. Crosscuts are particularly demanding. When you are adding fleam & slope to your roughed-in teeth, you want to have a good file. If teeth shatter or corners wear quickly, you can't maintain clean, repetitive cuts. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to make symmetrical, even teeth. DAMHIKT! So by all means, save your very best files for that operation... :U

Cheers,

[IanW]

...... but have found that my next challenge will be slotting the blade into the handle. I don't have a saw that will cut into the slot deep enough!...

I guess that is a problem, Craig. :U
I've made myself a couple of small saws out of scrap saw plate for deepening/rounding the bottoms of handle slots: 347783
They don't need to be fancy, and are easy enough to make. You really only need to tooth the rounded end, it does all the work. The teeth are filed to cut on the pull stroke, and given a reasonably aggressive rake. The rake angle was judged using a stick on the end of the file, that I kept roughly tangential to the curve. I don't put any set on these saws because they are made from plate that matches the sawplate and I want to keep the slot a close fit, but it can mean they get a bit 'sticky' if the slot has to be substantially deepened. You could fix that by putting just a touch of set on it, but even the minimum set you can apply with your sawset may be too much. However, that's easily fixed by wiping the sides over an oilstone once or twice until you judge it's just right for the job.

It's fairly slow-going with so few teeth actually cutting, and with little or no set, you have no steerage, so make sure your starter kerf is accurate. But it gets the job done...

Cheers,

[hiroller]

I'm not sure how thick the plate is on these, but for the price, you could get one and put some teeth on the rounded section and use the saw upside down! You could even probably get away with turning the handle upside down. Or better still make your own!
http://www.bunnings.com.au/trojan-300mm-laminate-saw_p5710137
347802

[yvan]

As a novice woodworker, I have had great pleasure in following this thread, even if my "understanding" of hand saws is quite limited. The photos show these saws as beautiful objects in themselves, demanding to make and individual in their characteristics.

Am I far off in thinking that a saw with some 15ppi and a plate of 0.015" is getting quite close to the vital statistics of some Japanese saws?

If this is the case, why is it that "our" saws are said to perform better in harder woods? I appreciate that the "design" of our saws has evolved over time taking into account the characteristics of our timbers but as our finer saws are "closer" to the Japanese "design" why the difference?

If the question is stupid, by all means say so... and why!

Yvan

[IanW]

.....Am I far off in thinking that a saw with some 15ppi and a plate of 0.015" is getting quite close to the vital statistics of some Japanese saws?

If this is the case, why is it that "our" saws are said to perform better in harder woods? I appreciate that the "design" of our saws has evolved over time taking into account the characteristics of our timbers but as our finer saws are "closer" to the Japanese "design" why the difference?

yvan, it's said there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers, so I'll do me best! :U

You are indeed correct that 15 thou plate is one of the common features of an 'ultra-thin' western D/T and some Japanese saws, but there the 'vital' statistics end, I think.

Ignoring the fact that they are designed to cut on the 'pull' stroke, because I think that's irrelevant to you question, the teeth on Japanese saws are very deep and of a completely different profile from the simple, triangular western teeth. They also usually harden their sawplate to several more notches up the scale from what we commonly use, which makes them brittle. The combination of skinny & brittle teeth is what makes them less suitable for very had woods. They are probably ok in careful hands, but saws don't always get to choose who uses them, do they? :;

You could debate the merits of either style of saw 'til the cows come home, each has its pros & cons, & I don't think either is clearly superior overall. In skilled hands, they are capable of identical results (clean, straight cuts), so it's more a matter of what you get used to than anything else. I'd pushed saws for far too long when I first tried pull saws, and just couldn't get on with them (I tried, honest!).

WRT the thinness of the plate, that's another debate that could go on forever. Conventional wisdom and intuition says that the thinner the plate, the quicker it cuts. In several trials I've made with saws that were identical in all but the thickness of the plate, I found no difference in speed of cut. It probably took a bit more effort to push the thicker saws, but I doubt my muscles could pick it, if I were blindfolded. Given the difference between the thickest and thinnest plate I compared was 0.010", that's probably not all that surprising. I have a D/T saw in 15 thou plate and it's my all-time favourite small D/T cum small tenon saw, but I think I would like it just as much in 20 thou plate, because my liking has to do with the tooth pitch/profile and handle shape/angle, which have all been settled on after much trial & error as suiting me & what I most often use it for. Several people I've made similar saws for say they love them, but I proudly handed it to one woodworker, of no mean experience, for his opinion. I was hoping to see his eyes light up with pleasure, but instead, he disliked it & said so in no uncertain terms! No single design pleases everyone - we all have our own ways & preferences...... :U

Cheers,

[hiroller]

It seems that you can also get an Irwin veneer saw with the rounded section already toothed: http://www.bunnings.com.au/irwin-jack-plus-325mm-veneer-hand-saw_p5712931

[yvan]

IanW

Thank you for your detailed explanation/observations. Much appreciated. yvan

[Chesand]

Chesand
If I'm not being rude what did it cost to have the teeth cut..?
In one way ,that's quite clever considering the file debacle that's on at that moment.
Ie as you have done ,get the grunt work done if it is reasonable price and they know what there doing ,then do the fine tune your self at bench later .

$15-00. I reckon it was worth it to have them cut evenly.

[IanW]

$15-00. I reckon it was worth it to have them cut evenly.

That's quite reasonable for one or two saw plates. Three dollars more than the cost of the cr*p file I bought in desperation a couple of weeks ago, which I used up toothing a single 10" saw! Plus, I think you would have got a far better job from the sharpener than you would have managed with a poor file, so I reckon you are comfortably ahead on the deal... :;

You don't need to defend the decision to get them done - anything that helps you get a start is a good thing, in my view. As I said, cutting in teeth is pretty easy once you get a bit of practice and confidence (and some decent files! :~), but it does seem intimidating at first (well, it did to me). The only bad thing that comes out of this is you will soon not be able to tolerate a dull or poorly-cutting saw, so you'll have given yourself one more chore to do in keeping your tools up to scratch. :U

Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

those eager forum members keen to make some backsaws. Ian & RayG were most generous when requested to run special workshops; the supply & distribution of saw plate & brass back was organised. Still a lack of response in completed backsaws.. :C:C:C:C:C:C:C:C

Stewie;

Stewie

Still in the pipeline :).

Regards
Paul