My Sharpening Process

[LineLefty]

The post-project shop re-organisation is almost done, tool cabinets built, plane shelves done. Last night I settled in to sharpen all these tools.

This is my SS process: I have afew queries and thought that the forum might spot if I'm doing anything wrong here......(Photos later)



1) 1/4inch glass 600x400. On the back side I have a 80 and 180 grit belts glued down for "grinding"

2) On the other side I have the following grits glued in 5cm x 15cm pieces (240,320,400,600,800,1200,1500,2000,2500).

3) I'm using the two popolar honing guides, one with a wide brass roller that clamps from the top and the other with a thin roller which clamps from the sides.

Process - Initital chisel sharpening
-Grind the bevel manually on the 80 grit
-Flatten the back on the 180 the hone to 2500.
-Fit chisel in wide roller (I think wide roller's stability is more important than the spot on squareness of the other jig
-Start at 180 on the bevel and go through to 400
-Flip the jig+chisel over and do the back on the 180, flip it again and do a few strokes on the bevel, then do the same for each grit to 400. 'Chasing the burr'

[The small amount of chiselback I can get on the glass makes me worry that I'll lift it and casue a back bevel,

- Refit the chisel to hone a 5degree microbevel. Proceed with the same sequence (hone and flip) through to 2500. Always makings sure that on these higher grits I'm only using pull strokes.

Process - Subsequent chisel honing
-The back is flat but I rehone it from about 400-2500
-Fit it in the jig at the mocrobevel setting, go through form 600-2500 in the "hone and flip" sequence.
- Or if I'm lazy, I just freehand the bevel on some MDF+Green Compound.

Now, questions, should I be doing the "hone and flip" on each grit as I go through, Or should I just hone the bevel then microbevel to 2500 and then take the chisel/planeiron out of the jig and rub the back from say, 600-2500 to get rid of the burr, or will this just 'move' it to the bevel side.

Your thoughts please. The sharpenss level I'm achieving is (i think) pretty good but the chisel only protrudes 25mm from the jig so rubbing the back on each grit while the chisel/iron is in the jig is quite difficult. If I raise it once, theres a microbevel and I've stuffed it!

http://www.timbecon.com.au/assets/images/products/mj-817.jpghttp://www.timbecon.com.au/assets/images/products/MJ-847r.jpg

[Bodgy]

Wow, I'm absolutely gobsmacked that there is so much involved in sharpening edges. Can I send you up a box of chisels and plane irons?

Seriously, I note you dont use diamond dust cards. Is there a reason for this? Just having bought a set.

Bodgy

[LineLefty]

It sounds like a lot but it's just a bunch of paper glued down to glass. The chisel goes in, gets sharpened, fitted for a microbevel and then gets 'honed and lapped' to remove the burr. It seems like a lot when you write it all down. I'm sure if you wrote down every part of the process of making a cup of coffee, you could fill 3 pages!

[kiwigeo]

Now, questions, should I be doing the "hone and flip" on each grit as I go through, Or should I just hone the bevel then microbevel to 2500 and then take the chisel/planeiron out of the jig and rub the back from say, 600-2500 to get rid of the burr, or will this just 'move' it to the bevel side.



Lefty,

Once Ive got face and primary bevel of a new chisel honed (work on 800 down to 6000 grit japanese water stones) I work in a 1-2 degree microbevel (easy using veritas honing guide). Unless theres major damage to the bevel subsequent sharpenings only involve a brief touch up on primary bevel and then redoing the microbevel on 4000 and then 6000 grit stone. To whip off the burr on the back of the bevel I give the face a couple of passes (running along direction of burr) over the 4000 grit stone and then run it over a leather strop (am using the Ashby strop from MIK).

I probably sharpen more frequently than the average woodie but IMO in the long run total time spent is less.

[J. Stevens]

I use this method too. I know its popular in the U.S. But they refer to self adhesive sandpaper but I havn't seen it here in Australia. Any ideas. I do use spray adhesive to attach to the glass but often it won't stick properly/

Cheers J. Stevens in Brisbane

[zenwood]

1) 1/4inch glass 600x400. On the back side I have a 80 and 180 grit belts glued down for "grinding"That's a good idea. I don't go any coarser than 180 and it tends to be the one I use most (to do 'grinding'), so it makes sense to have large amounts of that grit on the back.


2) On the other side I have the following grits glued in 5cm x 15cm pieces (240,320,400,600,800,1200,1500,2000,2500).I don't go any finer than 2000, and I use one of 1200 or 1500, not both, depending on availability. My step sizes are the same. Where do you get the 2500 from?


Flatten the back on the 180 the hone to 2500All at once? Seems like wasted effort to me: unless you're talking of flattening a newly acquired chisel for the first time. Subsequent deburring will just add new scratches to your 2500 finely polished back


-Start at 180 on the bevel and go through to 400Again, it seems like you're putting a fine polish on the bevel, onto to scratch it up later.


The small amount of chiselback I can get on the glass makes me worry that I'll lift it and casue a back bevel.I put my fingers firmly down on the front of the chisel, pushing it down on the glass, and move the chiself from side to side. Just a few strokes is enough to remove the burr.



- Refit the chisel to hone a 5degree microbevel. Proceed with the same sequence (hone and flip) through to 2500.Refit? I keep the chisel in the guide for the entire sharpening sequence. If you're going for a microbevel, just do the adjustment at 800 grit, or thereabouts, and keep going.



Always makings sure that on these higher grits I'm only using pull strokes.Yep, those first few slices through the paper teach that lesson.



Process - Subsequent chisel honing
-The back is flat but I rehone it from about 400-2500
-Fit it in the jig at the mocrobevel setting, go through form 600-2500 in the "hone and flip" sequence.
- Or if I'm lazy, I just freehand the bevel on some MDF+Green Compound.sounds good. Though I'm not sure about the MDF+green: never used it, but I'd be a bit wary of rounding the surgical edge with the soft MDF. Then again, the old-timers used leather strops, so maybe there's something in it.



Now, questions, should I be doing the "hone and flip" on each grit as I go throughthat's what I do.



Or should I just hone the bevel then microbevel to 2500 and then take the chisel/planeiron out of the jig and rub the back from say, 600-2500 to get rid of the burr, or will this just 'move' it to the bevel side.
That would be my concern. Most of the advice in books, etc, is to hone and flip as you go. Trying to do each side to 2500 in one go, sounds like you could end up with a highly polished burr!


Your thoughts please. The sharpenss level I'm achieving is (i think) pretty good but the chisel only protrudes 25mm from the jig so rubbing the back on each grit while the chisel/iron is in the jig is quite difficult. If I raise it once, theres a microbevel and I've stuffed it!My process seems to be simpler a quicker than yours, and I'm very happy with the sharpness. I don't generally bother with microbevels (changes planing angles, etc), and I don't use higher than 2000, nor do I use MDF&green etc.)


Only other comment would be to suggest you get yourself a small grinder. Hollow grinding is great, and speeds up scary sharp a helluva lot. I have to be careful not to complelety remove the hollow grind on the 180 grit.

[kiwigeo]

Process - Subsequent chisel honing
-The back is flat but I rehone it from about 400-2500
-Fit it in the jig at the mocrobevel setting, go through form 600-2500 in the "hone and flip" sequence.
- Or if I'm lazy, I just freehand the bevel on some MDF+Green Compound.



Lefty, for subsequent sharpening I dont bother with rehoning the face like you do. I spend alot of time during initial honing of the face making sure that I get rid of all machining marks (dont need to do whole face of chisel just 2-3 inches back from bevel). After that you shouldnt need to do any honing on the face unless its been damaged. The only working of the face I do after initial honing and lapping is a brief pass over a stone and strop to get rid of the whisker off the back of the bevel.

Something else I do is hone the side of a new chisel on the side of a water stone....just to an inch or two back from the bevel.

I have a sheet of 10mm plate glass with 220 grit W and D sitting on it....paper is wet so surface tension of water keeps it stuck to the glass. I use the paper mainly to flatten my water stones...they get done after 50 passes of any tool over the stone. Sometimes I run new chisels and plane blade faces over the paper of machining marks are deep before switching to the stones.

[zenwood]

I do use spray adhesive to attach to the glass but often it won't stick properly/

I use the spray stuff. Trick is spray, then stick on pretty much immediately. Sometimes I put a slab of mdf on top and a weight to help it dry flat.

Never seen self adhesive sandpaper.

[LineLefty]

Kiwi, your saying that you just hone the bevel/microbevel and then just rib the back to get rid of the burr? That would save me a fair bit of time.

Why would you touch up the primary bevel if it doestn reach the cutting edge?

For a 1-2 degree bevel I've used a steel ruler to just increase the angle a poofteenth bit. But then sometimes I change the projection......that might be the problem too much chopping and changing!

[LineLefty]

Zenwood,

I get the 2500 from Timbecon. Its about 3bucks for a half sheet. It lasts forever if you DONT........RIP........IT. I know it's overkill but hey, it's only 5-10 extra srokes why not?

Your right about honing the back initially to 2500, then scratching it at 400 to remove the burr. But what to do? If I go to 400, can I then combine the honing of the face/back with the removal of the burr?



Stevo,

I spray the glass and the paper, let it go tacky and then press it ony wit a roller. Most importantly though, it's important that the paper be stored FLAT for a few days before hand. I keep mine between two clipboards with a weight on top. If you dont then they tend to roll and not stick,. I bet thats your problem, not the adhesive.

Also, get yourself some nailpolish remover and a roll of paper towel. Works great as a solvent.

[zenwood]

Zenwood,

I get the 2500 from Timbecon. Its about 3bucks for a half sheet.
Pretty pricey. I'd give it a try, but there's no more room on my bit of glass.:eek:


Your right about honing the back initially to 2500, then scratching it at 400 to remove the burr. But what to do? If I go to 400, can I then combine the honing of the face/back with the removal of the burr?
yep. Sounds basically like what I do. I don't touch the back till about 320 or 400, then do bevel and back on each grit:
400: bevel, then back,
600: bevel, then back,
etc, till 2000

BTW, at 2000 I take the blade out of the jig, and swipe the whole back along the length of the 2000 strip. I do this for two reasons: (1) the blade must be removed from the jig, (2) the 2000 is at the end of my bit of glass, so its whole length is accessible, (3) it feels good.


I keep mine between two clipboards with a weight on top.
Good point. I keep all my sandpaper in a stack, and put a piece of chipboard on top to keep it all flat.


Also, get yourself some nailpolish remover and a roll of paper towel. Works great as a solvent. I find turps works pretty well. I scrape most of the old glue off with a plane blade (that isn't in a plane), then a wipe over with a bit of paper towel soaked in turps. The smell of turps isn't as bad as acetone.

[LineLefty]

Yeah the smell of acetone conjures up long forgotten images of my mum in a towel turban and dressing gown painting her toenails! :eek: :eek: :eek:

You're right about taking it otu of the jig 1500+, your probably not going to round the bevel a hell of a lot if you dont get the angle right and it allows you to be more careful with the paper.

[NewLou]

Gidday Lefty,

Honestly this is constructive feedback.......Not having a go at your technique just encouraging reflection about it!

I have a set of 5 Stanleys and I reckon I'd give up after the second one doing it this way! Master Woodworkers Like David Marks remind us not to put an excessive amount of effort into sharpening, as the goal is to finish the project, not sharpen all day!

I'll probably get Flamed for this BUT............For me the quest isn't for the perfect blade cause at the end of the day theres no such thing. Different woods require Different approaches. This is only the way I look at it and is my approach when it comes to Sharpening:

As little sharpening as possible for the maximum affect!!!! To date I've got my inspiration from here:

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_Chisels.htm
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_558.shtml
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_557.shtml
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_556.shtml
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_554.shtml

A recent Article by Terry Gordon on page 51 of Australian Wood Review also sheds Light on the Issue. AS with all these types of things its about personal Choice and horses for courses!!! I'm Essentially Lazy so for me its all about less sharpening=More Woodworking:)

I'm not too sure about what the answer is to the conundrum of the Dark Art of Effective & Economical Sharpening??? I suspect it lies somewhere along these lines:

K.I.S.S
Keep It Simple Stupid

REgards Lou

[Clinton]

Spray Adhesive that sticks to glass - 3M Automotive Trim Adhesive. Just make sure to rub the two surfaces together to get a smooth glue surface.
Quote:
"... they refer to self adhesive sandpaper but I havn't seen it here in Australia. Any ideas. I do use spray adhesive to attach to the glass but often it won't stick properly Cheers J. Stevens" End Quote


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[kiwigeo]

Kiwi, your saying that you just hone the bevel/microbevel and then just rib the back to get rid of the burr? That would save me a fair bit of time.

Why would you touch up the primary bevel if it doestn reach the cutting edge?

For a 1-2 degree bevel I've used a steel ruler to just increase the angle a poofteenth bit. But then sometimes I change the projection......that might be the problem too much chopping and changing!

Lefty...

1. Correct..hone microbevel (and primary bevel only if required) and then just a quick wipe or two on face to get rid of burr. Onto the strop for a few quick wipes and say goodbye to a few arm hairs!!

2. There are various ways of doing the microbevel. I use a veritas mark I honing guide.....you can set a 1 or 3 deg microbevel by giving the brass roller cam control a turn. If youre using an Eclipse type guide then you can do as you do with the ruler or alternately you can place a shim under the roller to raise it and consequently increase the angle by a minute amount...that way the chisel stays clamped in the guide.

If youre not using a leather strop then give it serious consideration....theyre great. if you dont want to buy one then ask your Grandfather if you can borrow his old army uniform. Wip out the belt and it makes a perfect strop!!

Cheers

Martin

[derekcohen]

Hi Adam

A few Rules of Thumb to speed up the process of sharpening.

1. Reproducibility is the key. If you can sharpen on the same spot of the bevel each time you revisit the blade, you will have less work to do. So make sure your set up is easy and accurate to achieve (which is why I got so anal with the set up guides I posted in the jig section).

2. Your strips of sandpaper are too short. A 15cm length will mean more to-and-fro movements, and less sharpening. If you make these twice the length, then you sharpen twice as much in one hit (for the same energy).

3. Don't waste your time (and effort) removing the wire edge until the very end. It is often quite coarse in the beginning, and gets progressively finer as you move through the grits. By the end of (say) 2000 it will be very fine and much less work to remove.

4. Flatten the back of the blade in the beginning and take it to the level at which you will end the bevel edge. Never touch it after this, except to wipe off the wire edge using this same grit.

5. There is no value in honing the same bevel over and over again. Work with microbevels. This is where the LV Honing Guide (both Mk I and Mk II) scores since it is a built-in mechanism. A 1-2 degree microbevel is better than a 5 degree microbevel as there is less area created to hone. THe "work" is done by the first 0.5mm of the bevel edge, so you do not need a large secondary bevel area.

6. With plane blade - NOT with chisel blades - use a steel ruler to add a 1 degree backbevel (Ala David Charlesworth) to ensure that you have a sharp edge. This can have amazing results, and 1 degree is not going to effect the cutting angle.

7. If gluing down the sandpaper (which I recommend over surface tension - more on this later), then use poster contact glue. Spray both sides, let it dry, then push firmly together. I never have a problem with adhesion. To remove, just peel off (you could use a hairdryer to aid this), and wipe with acertone.

8. If using water and surface tension, you must first "break the back" of the sandpaper by pulling it across a bench edge. This will remove the tendency to curl.

9. Remember that the most important factor in honing is that you have a single edge at the end of the blade. This means that the first stage to achieve is making sure that the primary bevel edge goes ALL the way, and that you cannot see light reflected from the bevel tip.

10. Veritas green rouge on MDF is a Good Thing. Rub in on like a crayon. AVOID using a leather strop unless it consists of a thin piece of leather glued FLAT onto MDF. It will otherwise dub the edge (apologies to those who stated that you should granddads shaving strop - DON'T).

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[LineLefty]

The bench I'm using is my grandfathers, he was a cobbler so obviously not short on leather around the place. Unfortunately he wouldnt part with the bench till he passed on so all the leathers gone. Theres still a shed full of cobblers stuff that I haven't explored though. More hammers than you can poke a stick at.

[mic-d]

Hi Adam

8. If using water and surface tension, you must first "break the back" of the sandpaper by pulling it across a bench edge. This will remove the tendency to curl.


Derek
Ahah, I was wondering how you stop it curling! I have been using spray adhesive and finding that on the back of the chisel I was getting a bit of curl (as evidenced by a slight distortion of the mirror image) so I thought I would try water instead. I don't know that the Bostik glue I am using is very good for the job. It doesn't come out as a fine spray but rather a globby stream.

Cheers
Michael

[routermaniac]

G'day linelefty,

I too use the SS method, but I have to say my process is much simpler.
The first thing to say is that I start flattening the back and I do this on an oil stone (medium and then fine) and then finish off on 1200 and then 2000, 2400.

I avoid flattening the back on 180 or lower as I feel it is often spongy (esp after a few sprays of wd40) and may round off the back of the chisel.

Once the back is done, I use the veritas guide to make a bevel and then microbevel through the grits to 2400. I then touch up the back on 2000 and both the back and bevel on honing compound.

I use a plate of glass that is a wide as the standard piece of emery paper and tend to cut each sheet in half, this means that my glass plate is just under 1m long! Having a full width paper to work with, the paper lasts longer and the process is much faster.

Completely agree with Derek in terms of needing a reproducible angle to minimise waste of metal and ensure the sharpest edge. I have both of the guides you are using and since I have upgraded to the Veritas, I now know there is no comparison. The Veritas is 10x better made, more reproducible and easier to use (and I should clarify, I have the old veritas, not the new one!).

The blades are always sharp enough to shave with and unless Im doing a chisel or blade from scratch it usually takes less than 30 seconds to touch up the microbevel with the veritas guide.

My only suggestion to you is get the veritas guide, you will not regret it and it will save some metal on your chisels and blades.

And although I agree with Lou that yes the most important thing is to get on with he woodworking, unless the tools are spot on in terms of their sharpness, handtools are not as fun to use.

I do a lot of practising on crapiata pine and since I have perfected my sharpening methods life is so much easier.

I will eventually invest in some waterstones from Lee Valley for sharpening chisels, but I think Ill stick to SS for the plane blades, I like my plane blades perfectly flat and I dont want to spend half a day flattening waterstones.

regards

Marios

[derekcohen]

I dont want to spend half a day flattening waterstones.

I believe that SS has got to be one of the most expensive forms of sharpening. What does it cost everytime you have a sharpening session - a couple of Dollars?

Buy a 1200 and a 6000 waterstone and you are set for life, about $60 worth.

And these take a few seconds to flatten, not a day. Use 220 grit drywall/plasterboard mesh. Ask the guys who attended the sharpening workshop I ran some months ago. Ask Adam. He was there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[LineLefty]

Thanks Mario,

I hope I didnt come across as a sharpening freak. I hate doing it actually and my goal is to minimise the amount of time spent sharpening.

I find that the honing compound actually degrades the mirror finish produced by the 2500. I'm not sure of the grit sizes in microns, zeptometres or poofteenths.....it's just an observation.

I'll have a look at the veritas jig, maybe I should've spent the money on that rather than DarrylF's planes.............nah!

[Theva]

Also bought a 2$ magnifier with light to check the edge;

best two bucks I ever spent :D .

Cheers,
Theva

[LineLefty]

I believe that SS has got to be one of the most expensive forms of sharpening. What does it cost everytime you have a sharpening session - a couple of Dollars?

Buy a 1200 and a 6000 waterstone and you are set for life, about $60 worth.

And these take a few seconds to flatten, not a day. Use 220 grit drywall/plasterboard mesh. Ask the guys who attended the sharpening workshop I ran some months ago. Ask Adam. He was there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Now Now derek, be nice!
Tell me, can you really get by with jut a 1200 and 6000 waterstone?

Marios, I think, from an observation of dereks setup, that the key is to have the drywall sitting there on a board next to your stones all the time. That way, you begin sharpening with 10 or so strokes to flatten the stone.......easy.

I'm definitely heading that way, I'm sick and tired of spending money on paper, I've easily spent $100 plus. I think though, that I'll still use rough grit sanding belts to do my manual "grinding"

[routermaniac]

hey linelefty $100 is a lot of money for wet and dry , you must be using your tools regularly, in that case I'd definitely go the waterstones!

I dont get much time in the shed, so for me at the moment, not quite worth making the investment... but as I get more time, I will make the shift. As you say Derek it is very expensive in the longrun...

Have a look at the Lee Valley site, they have a good variety of stones and lots of other nice goodies ;) .

I tell you what, cant wait till the next clamp order

PS If you were the one who bought the #5, congratulations, it looks awesome and for $100 it was very reasonably priced!

[QbnDusty]

What a load of waffle on sharpening. I do not intend to spend half my workshop time sharpening tools so I bought a Tormek. You can shave with the edges. I have lots of bloodstained shavings to prove it.
2 cents worth.

[outback]

What a load of waffle on sharpening. I do not intend to spend half my workshop time sharpening tools so I bought a Tormek. You can shave with the edges. I have lots of bloodstained shavings to prove it.
2 cents worth.

May I be the first to wish you all the best.

Don't get me wrong, I own a Tormek and love it for what it does. It's just this is Tormek haters convening point.

On to more serious stuff, Derek, how big/long, whatever a back bevel do I put on using the old ruler on the stone trick?

[routermaniac]

What a load of waffle on sharpening. I do not intend to spend half my workshop time sharpening tools so I bought a Tormek. You can shave with the edges. I have lots of bloodstained shavings to prove it.
2 cents worth.The Tormek thing has been discussed many times, it is an excellent machine for forming the bevel, certainly much faster than doing it by hand, but not for forming the microbevel. You can try but the edge will never be as sharp or last as long... You try planing endgrain especially pine with the bevel you just ground on the Tormek... Not fun!

Thats for plane blades and ordinary chisels, for woodturning chisels the Tormek should give a better than acceptable finish.

(I do not pretend to be an expert on the Tormek as I have only seen the results produced by a friend who has one.)

[Auld Bassoon]

Derek,

Thanks for that.

As always, you're a great source for info. on this sort of thing

Cheers!

[derekcohen]

how big/long, whatever a back bevel do I put on using the old ruler on the stone trick?

Hi Outback

The backbevel can be teensy-weensy, a poofteenth wide. As soon as you see a glint of silver across the blade bevel, then you are done. It is simply to assure that the back of the plane "blade" is flat.



I bought a Tormek

Congrats Geoff. It is great for chisels but do a search on what is written on this site since there are issues with using it for plane blades, in particular smoother blades. In a nutshell, the Tormek may produce a sharp edge but it is not a smooth edge. You only lose the serrations when you follow a progression of grits. The Tormek hones to 1100 (and gets there directly from about a 350 grit surface). Honing waterstones start at this point! A 1100 edge will degrade the surface planed by a smoother. The answer is to continue from the Tormek onto a finishing waterstone.



I hope I didnt come across as a sharpening freak. I hate doing it actually and my goal is to minimise the amount of time spent sharpening.

Ditto



Tell me, can you really get by with jut a 1200 and 6000 waterstone?

Adam, in a word - yes. The 1200 is all that is needed to level the bevel (as you suggested, use sandpaper to grind - or get an 800 stone), while the 6000 is sufficient to get a razor sharp edge. When you use a very wet stone, one that is nice and mushy, you will hone more aggressively since the grit is freed from the waterstone. If you let the waterstone dry, and you hone on the dried and compressed mush, you will be then honing at/beyond 6000 (about 2 microns). Add a Veritas green rouge on MDF and you go up to 0.5 microns.


I find that the honing compound actually degrades the mirror finish produced by the 2500

The amount of surface shine is a poor measure of edge sharpness. Some mediums will create a shine, other will not. If the 2500-shine is degraded, this does not mean that you have reduced the sharp edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert34]

I use this method too. I know its popular in the U.S. But they refer to self adhesive sandpaper but I havn't seen it here in Australia. Any ideas. I do use spray adhesive to attach to the glass but often it won't stick properly/

Cheers J. Stevens in Brisbane
If you go to this site you will find out about self adhesive sand paper. It is 3m Micro Abrasive Film you can also order some if you wish.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=THS

And click on the more info tags,

Robert

[zenwood]

1-2 degree microbevel is better than a 5 degree microbevel as there is less area created to hone. THe "work" is done by the first 0.5mm of the bevel edge, so you do not need a large secondary bevel area.
Derek: thanks for the post, lots of good stuff there.

But, I don't follow your logic in why a 1-2 degree microbevel has less area than a 5 degree one. Attached pic shows why I think it's the other way around.

[LineLefty]

Derek,

I get your point about the rouge, I'll go back to it.

Regarding the backbevel, I've suffered from a lack of specifics in the various references I've seen to the 'ruler trick'

After I've flattened the back I'd take a steel rile and lay it on the 800 paper.
I then place the iron so that the very back edge of the iron is on the back edge of the ruler and move the blade side to side a bit. It's not repeatable geometry though which is supposedly what your after?

[dereg]

re sharpening using a Tormek machine.

I have one and I asked Terry Gordon how I should sharpen the HSS blade on my HNT Gordon smoothing plane.

My Question was:

"I have a Tormek sharpening machine with a watercooled slowturning grindstone and a leather honing wheel. Tormek advise that they do not see any need to hollow grind blades.

I am anxious to ensure that I do not jeopardise the ability of the plane by incorrect sharpening. Do you have any particular instructions for sharpening your blades on these type of systems?"

His reply was:

" The tormek sharpening machine is fine for putting a hollow ground bevel on the blade. Set your tool rest up so you grind the bevel at 30 degrees which is the current angle it is sharpened at. It will take a while to put the hollow grind in it to start with but when you re-sharpen it won't take long at all. I recommend a hollow ground bevel because it makes it easier to get a sharp edge on thick blades.

Once you have put a hollow in the bevel I recommend you finish the sharpening on a 6000 grit flat waterstone using a standard sharpening technique. There is some good info on my website for sharpening."

I did as suggested and it works nicely

regards
Dereg

[derekcohen]

I don't follow your logic in why a 1-2 degree microbevel has less area than a 5 degree one.

Hi Zenwood

Those are good illustrations, and they give me pause for thought. I need to consider it a while and get back to you.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert34]

Hi Zenwood

Those are good illustrations, and they give me pause for thought. I need to consider it a while and get back to you.

Regards from Perth

Derek
I am a real dunce when it comes to reading drawings. But ! isn't that a drawing of the main bevel (front) of the blade. My understanding is that a back bevel goes on the other side of the blade.

Please tell me if I have it wrong :)

Robert34

[silentC]

Doesn't make any difference to Zenwood's argument, which is correct, but they were talking about a micro-bevel, which in these conversations refers to a bevel in addition to what you have referred to as the main bevel. If you really want to get carried away, you can have a primary bevel, a secondary bevel and then one or two micro-bevels.

[LineLefty]

Yes you start with the microbevel, move to the coarse femtobevel before finally reaching a sharp endge at the zeptobevel. Having an yoctobevel is really just overkill :o

[silentC]

I would warn you against skipping the nano, pico and atto bevels.

[bitingmidge]

I would warn you against skipping the nano, pico and atto bevels.
and a dishevel?

P

[silentC]

and a dishevel?

P
... is what your workshop will become once you have been through all those sheets of wet and dry.

[LineLefty]

Listen mate, we cant all afford $90 for a set of 1000 and 6000 water stones.......hang on, yes we can.

[zenwood]

Yes you start with the microbevel, move to the coarse femtobevel before finally reaching a sharp endge at the zeptobevel. Having an yoctobevel is really just overkill :o
At the level of the femptobevel, you've got what is otherwise called a blunt blade. see pic

[LineLefty]

Things a bit quiet in eden hills this afternoon?

[bnaujok]

Blimey!

This morning I stopped of at Carbatec and bought a couple of waterstones for around $75. And now after reading this (in particular, Derek's post)... back I go tomorrow morning and get the Veritas guide!

No chance in putting hollow bevels in my chisels though... next I'll be needing a bench grinder :D

[Sprog]

(I do not pretend to be an expert on the Tormek as I have only seen the results produced by a friend who has one.)

Maybe the friend is not doing it right!

[Trent The Thief]

I use this method too. I know its popular in the U.S. But they refer to self adhesive sandpaper but I havn't seen it here in Australia. Any ideas. I do use spray adhesive to attach to the glass but often it won't stick properly/

Cheers J. Stevens in Brisbane
It might be popular somewhere in the US, but I've never seen any of it. We have plenty of spray adhesive, though :-)

[NewLou]

Hi Zenwood

Those are good illustrations, and they give me pause for thought. I need to consider it a while and get back to you.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Is that your way of saying your wrong Derek:D:D:D................Awaiting your reply with burning anticipation:p

REgards Lou

[derekcohen]

Hi Lou

No, I am not yet conceding anything - yet. I am still cogitating over Zenwood's drawings.

What needs to be done - and I do not have the mental energy today (or yesterday - just too much work on my hands) to do this very simple calculation: calculate the volume of metal removed when the microbevel is 1 degree verses 5 degrees using, say, a 2" wide blade. What Zenwood's drawing reveals is a 2-dimensional slice, but the real world involves a 3-dimensional mass.

This issue may be determined in the final analysis by the honing guide that is used. The LV guides make it a simple matter to add a 1 or 2 degree microbevel. Other guides may require a 5 degree microbevel because it is difficult to do anything else.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[silentC]

Derek,

Assuming that you start with just the main bevel and that you grind away the same amount of length from the blade, the 1 degree bevel MUST remove the amount of metal that would be removed by the 5 degree bevel and then some.

[derekcohen]

Regarding the backbevel, I've suffered from a lack of specifics in the various references I've seen to the 'ruler trick'

Adam

A 1 degree backbevel is a simple and quick procedure, the idea of which comes from David Charlesworth, a notable English woodworker and teacher who has publshed a few books and videos on the subject.

Basically, take a 6" metal ruler and lay it flat at the one side/edge of your sharpening media (sandpaper or waterstone). Now lay your plane blade across it so that only the very tip of the back of the blade touch the media. THe important point here is that you want the shallowest angle possible, so it will be supported at the extreme ends of the blade on each side.
You are after a minute bevel, perhaps .25 - .50 mm. All that you are trying to achieve is a consistent flat surface across the back of the blade. This may only take a few, SHORT, strokes back-and-forth.

This micro backbevel can save HOURS of flattening the backs of plane blades (NB - this is NOT for chisel blades!).

It is the ability to achieve a single point at the blades edge that creates sharpness. The process with increase sharpness +++.

Regards

Derek

[silentC]

Perhaps this will help:

The volume of metal removed from the 3 dimensional blade is a triangular prism. The way to calculate the volume of such a prism is to calculate the area of the triangle and then multiply by the length. As the length is a constant, it does not matter how wide the blade is, we can see by calculating the area of the two triangles and comparing them that one is bigger than the other.


In fact, you don't even need to calculate it because you can see quite clearly from Zenwood's diagram that the triangle formed by the 5 begree bevel is much smaller than the one formed by the 1 degree bevel; and you can also see clearly that the larger triangle INCLUDES the smaller one in its shape.

[bnaujok]

Here's food for thought on this microbevel issue. What about if the length of the microbevel from the bevel side is the same (rather than the flat side as in zen's drawings)?

[Robert34]

Here's food for thought on this microbevel issue. What about if the length of the microbevel from the bevel side is the same (rather than the flat side as in zen's drawings)?
bnaujok

Oh Oh I might be getting in over my head here. As they say nothing ventured nothing gained.:)

Have a look at the drawing of the micro bevel at Lee Valley's honing guide site.
I hope that this will be an answer for this issue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1

Robert34

[mic-jagger]

Way to many woodys are so obsessed with getting too technical about sharpening. They spend too much time going through a complex process, usually taking an hour or so to sharpen crap Stanley or Marples chisels only to have the edges go in 10 minutes… My advice is to buy at least 3 quality chisels. Then flatten/polish/hone the back, using black/red/green diamond stones and 1200/4000 water stones. car pollishing compounds from an auto paint shop on some glass will bring it to a mirror polish. Then hollow grind the bevels (but only twice yearly, not every sharpening, as its over kill)Then lightly go through red/green diamond stones followed by 1200/4000 water stones. Done properly (and quickly) the bur will be tiny and you can pick it of with your fingernails, and finish with the polish compound on glass, then it’s just a quick "light" rub on a strop and it will be like a surgical blade. After that when sharpenings needed it’s only a matter of rehoning following the process. then in time the hollow grind disappears, and that’s the time to get back to the grinder for another hollow grind. It’s all about "feel" and not getting over the top in technique.
There are so many ways to sharpen and they all have merit. Mine is no better than the other. But one-day you’ll wake up and it "just happens" and presto your blades are like razors. Youve done nothing different than you did yesterday, but you have just been given the sharpening Mojo from the great woodworking Gods in the sky… time to enjoy.

[vsquizz]

Zenwood, to my micro cranial development your drawing of the 1 degree bevel was confusing??. However you are correct. What Derek has said is true in relation to the "Micro" in the bevel not particularly the angle. At these dimensions its really the amount you hone off that gives the size of the "face" rather the particular angle. If you get what I mean...its the amount of honing you do wether its 1 degree or 5. Essentially the debate here centres around the fact that its only about 1/2 a mm or less thats actually doing the work.

I'd have to try it but 5 or more degrees would very rapidly remove the tip (if you are not careful) effectively changing the angle of the blade, making the rest (of the angle/face) redundant. I'd think that micros are cut at 1 or 2 degrees expressly for that reason...not to remove the tip but just to put a fine hone on it.

This takes me back to freehand sharpening as an apprentice. The instructor told us to lift the chisel slightly on the final hone..at which point we magically (after a couple of passes) got a chisel that would shave the hairs...so...being apprentices....we honed more;) .....only to go backwards in the sharpness department:confused: :(

MHO

Cheers

[kiwigeo]

Then hollow grind the bevels (but only twice yearly, not every sharpening, as its over kill)
There are some people who consider hollow grinding unecessary and that it can in fact weaken the end of the chisel.

Any thoughts from people on this one?

[mic-jagger]

OOOOPS. It was late and I said "Then flatten/polish/hone the back, using black/red/green diamond stones and 1200/4000 water stones. Car-polishing compounds from an auto paint shop on some glass will bring it to a mirror polish. Then hollow grind the bevels (but only twice yearly, not every sharpening, as its over kill)"

I ment to say…

"Then flatten/polish/hone the back (but only twice yearly, not every sharpening, as its over kill), using black/red/green diamond stones and 1200/4000 water stones. car polishing compounds from an auto paint shop on some glass will bring it to a mirror polish." And not hollow grind twice.

On the subject of hollow grinding, for bevel of firmer chisels, I sharpen at 20 deg with no secondry bevel. So hollow grinding suits me just fine. But for my mortising chisels I sharpen at 35 deg taking out the hollow with about a 4 – 5 deg secondry bevel.

[peter byrne]

[QUOTE=derekcohen]Adam

A 1 degree backbevel is a simple and quick procedure, the idea of which comes from David Charlesworth, a notable English woodworker and teacher who has publshed a few books and videos on the subject.

Basically, take a 6" metal ruler and lay it flat at the one side/edge of your sharpening media (sandpaper or waterstone). Now lay your plane blade across it so that only the very tip of the back of the blade touch the media. THe important point here is that you want the shallowest angle possible, so it will be supported at the extreme ends of the blade on each side.

Jeez Adam, weren't you paying attention at the sharpening workshop at Hobelmeister Cohen's?
Regards
PB

[LineLefty]

I was too busy perving at that spiers of yours!

[zenwood]

SilentC is right on both points. (1) The volumes can be compared by comparing the areas of the triangles since the lengths of the prisms are the same, and (2) the larger triangle by definition includes the smaller triangle (the definition of the comparison is that the length of material removed from the back is the same). I've attached another pic (first pic) that shows this point.

The diagram exaggerates the effect a wee bit, the actual angles drawn are 1 degree and 10 degrees, but the effect remains at 5 degrees. By using a bit of triangle geometry, the area can be expressed in terms of the length of the base and the two angles, as in the diagram. Calculating the areas for a = 25 degrees, l = 1 (whatever unit you like), and for two values of b, namely b = 26, and 30 degrees, yields triangle areas of
11.3 and
2.5 (units squared)
respectively, which means the amount of material removed for a 1 degree bevel is about 4.5 times greater than the amount of material removed for a 5 degree bevel (assuming the same amount of material is removed from the back).

bnaujok (member.php?u=7180) proposed a comparison keeping the amount of material removed along the bevel constant (see second pic). This situation may be what Derek had in mind when he made his statement. I had thought of this initially, but it didn't make sense to me because you'd be less certain of removing the initial roughness along the back of the blade, especially for small microbevel angles. But it is something to think about, and in this case the amount of material removed with a 5 degree bevel is obviously greater than the amount of material removed with a 1 degree bevel. It basically comes down to exactly what you want to compare.

[TassieKiwi]

Ohhh goody - #61.

I think the thing to remember, children, is the poofteenth. Weather 1 deg or 5 deg, the aim is to remove only a poofteenth. So, if the width of the microbevel remains the constant, the 1 deg version removes a great deal less material, and one still ends up with a o.5mm microbevel. I haven't got a flash drawing jigger, but you get the idea.

[silentC]

OK, I concede the point on that one. If you are aiming for a bevel of x width, then the more obtuse angle removes more material getting there. It also consumes more blade length.

[LineLefty]

You're an evil, evil man derek.

I went and purchased a King 1200 today. Still happy to be using the paper for the lower grits. So it'll be primary bevel on 120-300, secondary bevel on the 1200 stone and then the micro bevel on the 2000 and 2500 paper I've still got a few sheets of. Followed by the green. Once the fine paper is finished (A while) I'll have decided whether it's worth forking out the extra for the 4000 and 6000 stones.

So when something needs a touch up it'll still be the finer papers and green. Occaisionally the 1200 stone first to reestablish the secondary bevel. That shouldnt take too long. I dont have a fancy blade setting jig, I'm just using my benchhook to set the (bevel up) projections using pencil marks as reference points for the different angles. Easy! We'll see.

I'm confused.

[derekcohen]

Hi Adam

Get a couple of sheets (one goes far) of plasterboard sanding mesh from Bunnies (220 grit) and use this to flatten the waterstone (and do it wet, not dry). Get the 6000 stone next (I know you'll do it .... do it .... do it .....do it ...... ). :D

Will we see you on Saturday?

Regards

Derek

[TassieKiwi]

Hi Adam

Get a couple of sheets (one goes far) of plasterboard sanding mesh from Bunnies (220 grit) and use this to flatten the waterstone (and do it wet, not dry). Get the 6000 stone next (I know you'll do it .... do it .... do it .....do it ...... ). :D


Regards

Derek
I have the 800/1200/6000. They were an epiphany to me, and still astonish me as to how quickly I can get a mirror edge. I have not used the superfine papers, but IMHO the 1200 without the 6000 is like G&T with no lime, beer without froth, champagne in a plastic mug, porridge without the salt......

[LineLefty]

Don't worry derek, I've read you're drywall mesh trick a hundred times......in various forums mind you! you need a new party trick!

I'll be milling around the entrance at 12pm on saturday. I'm keen to talk to these handtool preservation guys about get a replacement brass back made for the old disston I've got. A lot of the focus is on woodturning but thats OK, I particularly enjoy getting the fancy exotic wood offcuts for $2 from the timber stands. Great for inlays, drawer pulls (I've never made a drawer!), and other decorative stuff.

Would you look at the response to a sharpening thread? There are 9 members reading it!

[zenwood]

Get a couple of sheets (one goes far) of plasterboard sanding mesh... I notice LV give you a piece of glass and some grit with their stone pond. Would the plasterboard sanding mesh be good enough to replace these? How would you fix the sanding mesh to the piece of glass, or would you use another substrate? After seeing Phil Ashby do his magic with waterstones and the MkII jig, I want 'em!



...did we reach a conclusion on the great bevel-angle debate?



...Oh, I also want a stropping thing.

[Termite]

...Oh, I also want a stropping thing, too.
You'll go blind. :D

[zenwood]

You'll go blind. :D Nah: I'd be blind by now.:eek::D

[Tankstand]

...Oh, I also want a stropping thing, too.

I saw those at the show.

Shouldn't be too hard to knock up! ;)

[LineLefty]

I tried to keep it on topic. I really did, somehow we diverted to vice.

[derekcohen]

you need a new party trick!

Adam

I guess so. I'm fresh out of ideas.



How would you fix the sanding mesh to the piece of glass, or would you use another substrate?

Zenwood

Have a look here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=17404)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[TassieKiwi]

The glass/laminate thing is fiddly, messy and fussy, and wears out. DC's solution is the way to go - I use it on the piece of glass. Wonderful.

[dazzler]

I like to have my chisels sharpened by Master Li Won Hu. He is a master sword maker and sharpener from 16th century Han su province. Luckily he was frozen when he slipped into an icy river. I found him when searching for hand folded japanese micro chisels.

Master Hu is kept in the freezer and thawed only on a full moon. He then spends fourteen days taking each back to its molecular structure, redesigns the DNA (Master Hu's chisels have DNA inserted from a mongolian Llama fed on the breast milk of thirty virgins) and then hand polishes each super micro bevel using his tongue.

They end up reasonably sharp but this is the secret to super sharp chisels and I am happy to share it with you all;

I then place them in a crystal pyramid, have NASA take them into zero gravity aboard the shuttle and have them smeared with male cow manure!

Thats the final step.........male cow manure!

Damn, they just grounded all shuttle flights....no what will I do???????

[outback]

Whilst I'd love to apply for the job, just how do you get breast milk from 30 virgins?

[dazzler]

Whilst I'd love to apply for the job, just how do you get breast milk from 30 virgins?
Patience.......lots of patience!:p

[zenwood]

Zenwood

Have a look here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=17404)
Thanks for the link, Derek. Does the clamp on one end mean that you only ever stroke the stone in one direction?

Also, I heard the late Les Miller recommend water stones be flattened simply by rubbing two of them against one another, therby knocking off any high spots. Does anyone do this?

[JDarvall]

Also, I heard the late Les Miller recommend water stones be flattened simply by rubbing two of them against one another, therby knocking off any high spots. Does anyone do this?

I flattern them on coarse grit cloth backed paper. But I do rub them together afterwards, with a few quite dunks in water, in an attempt to wash away any of that coarse grit from the sandpaper that I fear has been left on the stones. :rolleyes:

I personally think, its worth while buying a half a dozern stones. This way you can do all your flatterning in one session. Meaning , fewer interruptions having to stop and flattern a stone.

And when you've got no flat stones left, what I do is place them all out in the sun to dry out completely. This way, when I take them to the coarse grit they flattern very quickly, because their dry. If there wet they tend to clog up the grit very quickly.

So, in a nutshell, my point is, its worth flatterning stones when there totally dry. Much faster. This means you must have a few stones, or else you will be forced to flattern that single stone when its wet, because at one stage or another it will hollow in the middle of a sharpening process.

[derekcohen]

its worth flatterning stones when there totally dry

Hi Jake

I recall you suggesting this before. It is a while since I flattened my stones on sandpaper, but I find that on mesh that the stones respond better when wet. What happens when you try them dry is that they glaze over and do not cut at all. When wet the clay binder is softened and more easily released (which is the point when using the stones in the first place). I wonder if (and then why) there is a difference?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Does the clamp on one end mean that you only ever stroke the stone in one direction?

Hi Zenwood

The clamp at the one end is enough to hold that end securely. The mesh is usually stiff enough just to be held by just the one end. But if there is any movement, just hold the loose end with your free hand. The mesh will not move, and you can sand the stones in both directions.

In use, just mop up excess water with a sponge. When finished, don't bother to clean it down - just leave it to dry. Later you can lift the loose end and brush away the (now) dry and dusty residue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[JDarvall]

Hi Jake

I recall you suggesting this before. It is a while since I flattened my stones on sandpaper, but I find that on mesh that the stones respond better when wet. What happens when you try them dry is that they glaze over and do not cut at all. When wet the clay binder is softened and more easily released (which is the point when using the stones in the first place). I wonder if (and then why) there is a difference?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Oh, I do wet them again before use. Just soak them for 10 minutes or so ( never really every timed it) So, once they've all dried out, I flattern them all, then into the water they go. As each hollows to much I put it away on a shelf. And when the last of the flattern stones hollows, they all come down from the shelf, put into the sun, for half an hour (?) until they glaze over, flattern again and so on..........but they got to glaze over to be really quickly flatterned. Often, even though they have been sitting out of the water for days they still retain some moisture that clogs up paper. The sun fixes that.

And what about this 'mesh' ? I'm interested. I'm thinking its grid like stuff with grit adheared to it ? I've got some in small strips that I use for light sanding of round like stock, like dowel etc. I'm wondering if what you have is the same kind, albeit in larger pieces ????? What is it exactly Derek ? how much does it cost ? and where do I get it ? :) ta.

[derekcohen]

And what about this 'mesh'

Hi Jake

The "mesh" is for sanding plasterboard (or drywall). I use the 220 grit. Have a look at the link above (to Zenwood). There is a picture there. Available from Bunnings. I'd guess it was about a dollar or two per sheet. With regular use, one lasts me a month at least.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[JDarvall]

Hi Jake

The "mesh" is for sanding plasterboard (or drywall). I use the 220 grit. Have a look at the link above (to Zenwood). There is a picture there. Available from Bunnings. I'd guess it was about a dollar or two per sheet. With regular use, one lasts me a month at least.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks. It does seem to be an excellent way to flattern stones wet. I'll give it a go. The occation may arise where I'll want to do it wet. Though I think I'll probably still try and avoid it, since its so much faster flatterning dry. But, definetly still like to make a comparison.

What does sound impressive is that you say it lasts up to a month. Must beat the crap out of regular silicon Carbide ( think thats what its called, the wet and dry stuff) . It doesn't seem to last long at all after flatterning wet stones on it.

[KevM]

Jake,
No one seems to have suggested it but also try the mesh on plaster too, it lasts so much longer than any of the various paper grits.

Kev M