The Square Head Thread.

[L.S.Barker1970]

In this post I aim to promote positive discussion about square-head-cutters and to
dispel some common myths. I will also mention what I consider to be some of the dangers in using them.


Many people are scared to use a machine with this type of cutter-head, and yes, in the hands of an inexperienced person they can be dangerous. I would like to deter people with no experience, to be using machinery with square-heads. However, some discussion about this may be useful?


Square-head-cutters have been used in machinery for hundreds of years. I have pictures from an 1856 American, C.B.Rogers, catalog showing many timber framed moulding machines that are set up to use square-head-cutters. While this type of technology has been around for a long time, it use peaked between the 1920’s and 30’s. There were also other solid types of cutter-heads coming onto the market, but the square-head-cutter was popular because it was universal and easier to use.


These cutters were manufactured up until the 1980’s. I am amazed to think about the trillions of lineal meters that passed through machines, by industry, using this “old cutter technology” during this time and throughout the world (much more than any byrd or helix- head). For many years I have been researching and collecting information about square-head-cutters to understand how to use them, safely, and to learn the skills that were demonstrated by many successful and skillful operators in the past.


One of my passions is old vintage machinery. Most of the machinery I use is for heritage restoration work on old buildings and homes. When I am asked to match a section of skirting for an old place I prefer to match like-for-like. So if that means using the same technology that was used 80 years ago to achieve the same result, then that will always be my preference.


These square-head-cutters are still used in industry today. For example, A.Lewis & Co, located in Ormond, have all of their Bolinder four sided moulders running square-head-cutters and they achieve the highest quality finish on all their mouldings and timber.


A few months ago my wife and I ran 7,000 lm of hardwood shiplap with square-cutter-heads on a four-sider. When I am preparing for a run I am always vigilant about my set up. From what I see most of the so called inherent dangers are complacency and use of poor tooling.


I believe the condition of equipment is everything. Operators must use cutters that are in perfect and sharp condition. This means not using any bent, ground to nothing or cracked/fractured cutters. Loose cutters are ground in matched pairs and balanced.


Nuts and bolts should be made from 4140 steel. I run balanced pairs of bolts on my four-sider, they are each number stamped so they stay as pairs, and I rotate my sets each run. My experience is that bolts have a life span and must be replaced after a certain amount of use and time, regardless of their perceived condition. I avoid worn and stretched threads, damaged bolts, badly seated cutter-bolts on a dovetail slot. They must seat below the block to hold the cutter firm.


I also avoid damaged, bent-up edges, worn, and not perfectly flat or concave cutter blocks. The cutter-head must also be in perfect balanced condition. I like to use chalk on the cutter-block as it acts as a mild abrasive when the cutter is tightened, because steel sliding on steel doesn't appeal to me. While some operators like to use folded sand-paper behind the back edge, I'm not a big fan of that.


Love to hear from other square-head users about your experiences.

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Melbourne Matty.

[China]

The main reason square cutter blocks are seen as unsafe is the gap they produce on machinines such as a buzzer(jointer) this allows fingers to be more easily caught and subsequently romoved, in South Australia they are infact illegal to use on such equipment, to use square cutter blocks the machine must have fixed non moving gaurds preventing access while the machine is in operation. Some years ago a friend of mine injured his hand while operating spindle moulder (own buisness) and after many months of argument his insurance would not pay out as the machine was declared not ro be safe as it had a "non compliant square cutter" even though if it had been the round type the injury would still have occured, I have worked on machines with square cutter heads and never had cause to worry when I did my trade I was taught that not matter what machine you are using that the infalable saftey gaurd for that machine is yourself . I recently helped out a young lad from a high school near my house who wished to use my tabel saw for some after hours work on a school project, I pointed out that he should no have his fingerss so close to the spining blade and should use the push stick, his reply was " why the blade will stop if my finger touches it" enough said

[L.S.Barker1970]

The main reason square cutter blocks are seen as unsafe is the gap they produce on machinines such as a buzzer(jointer) this allows fingers to be more easily caught and subsequently removed,

China, this has been a well documented fact for a long time, I dug up some catalogs from 1911 and 1916 promoting the round head cutter below.
Square head cutters are very dangerous in a Jointer and I would not recommend it for any one.
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355136/img138_zpsvg9jh2rk.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355136/img139_zpslrlfpl82.jpg
Melbourne Matty.

[elanjacobs]

Slightly off-topic, but still on the subject of banned/discouraged tooling; we still use slotted collars on our spindle moulder at work (a 1960s Jonsereds) with no problems. The larger ones get bloody loud, but we all know how to set them properly and they're perfectly safe.

I've been told that our old jointer (recently replaced after 100 years of service - same set of bearings too) started with a square head, but was changed to a 3-knife round head for safety and noise.

Love to see your setup Matty, I'm quite interested in machinery myself.

[Kuffy]

every place i worked use slotted collars. the teachers at trade school were complaining about them while they were training us to use them. telling us all sorts of horror stories about dumbos using pieces of paper to tighten down mismatched cutters.

[L.S.Barker1970]

Slightly off-topic, but still on the subject of banned/discouraged tooling; we still use slotted collars on our spindle moulder at work (a 1960s Jonsereds) with no problems. The larger ones get bloody loud, but we all know how to set them properly and they're perfectly safe.

I've been told that our old jointer (recently replaced after 100 years of service - same set of bearings too) started with a square head, but was changed to a 3-knife round head for safety and noise.

Love to see your setup Matty, I'm quite interested in machinery myself.

Beautiful machine to work on those Swedish Jonsereds, I particularly like the table adjustment back and forward to the spindle, very handy for that last adjustment tweak.
Elan, I also still use slotted collars and loose cutters for shaper work, for small runs it makes economic sense as the outlay is not that expensive, and if your handy on the grinder you can make your own pairs and bring costs right down.
If your like me, I can't justify the cost of a Leitz or Luco cutter-head for one job, only to be put in a draw for next time if ever.

Elan, I think we will be catching up, a little bird told me your shop is not to far away from me...

Melbourne Matty.

[lightwood]

One of the issues with the fact that these machines are in current use in both private / hobby, one person operations, and also at least 5 commercial wood working companies I know about is training.
Teaching the safe use of older machines to students who may encounter them, in perfectly legal use in the workplace, must be considered to be an important inclusion in a syllabus.
Interesting thing is that there is a current approved module for teaching by 52 providers including TAFE.
I was, in a time long ago, the chair of a Trade Committee trying to re-write a TAFE syllabus. Its challenging and time consuming work.
What we, the trade reps, found was that even if we had the best we could write, we were dependent on the level of competency of those teaching our course.
With what is happening in TAFE, lots of the good "old heads" are unfortunately gone, burnt out by a crazy system ... or close to the chopping block.

I know there are published teaching resources for TAFE that include square head machines, but it requires lots of communication and goodwill between the the trade, and the teachers to implement it.

Cheers
Peter
http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/lmffm3024a_1.jpg

[elanjacobs]

One of the issues with the fact that these machines are in current use in both private / hobby, one person operations, and also at least 5 commercial wood working companies I know about is training.
Teaching the safe use of older machines to students who may encounter them, in perfectly legal use in the workplace, must be considered to be an important inclusion in a syllabus.
Interesting thing is that there is a current approved module for teaching by 52 providers including TAFE.
I was, in a time long ago, the chair of a Trade Committee trying to re-write a TAFE syllabus. Its challenging and time consuming work.
What we, the trade reps, found was that even if we had the best we could write, we were dependent on the level of competency of those teaching our course.
With what is happening in TAFE, lots of the good "old heads" are unfortunately gone, burnt out by a crazy system ... or close to the chopping block.

I know there are published teaching resources for TAFE that include square head machines, but it requires lots of communication and goodwill between the the trade, and the teachers to implement it.

Cheers
Peter
http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/lmffm3024a_1.jpg
Don't remember seeing square heads covered when I did that course a few years ago, didn't even cover slotted collars - they mentioned that they both exist and are no longer allowed.
I did get to use their fancy Weinig profile grinder and four-sider which was great fun (reproduced a colonial moulding from a sample), didn't get to do high-speed runs with the hydro-lock tooling which is what I'd really like to do at some point.

[lightwood]

I've never seen a square head buzzer/planer in use at any workshop....anyone ever seen a crazy thrill-seeker with one of those running?

Cheers,
Peter

[lightwood]

Don't remember seeing square heads covered when I did that course a few years ago, didn't even cover slotted collars - they mentioned that they both exist and are no longer allowed.
I did get to use their fancy Weinig profile grinder and four-sider which was great fun (reproduced a colonial moulding from a sample), didn't get to do high-speed runs with the hydro-lock tooling which is what I'd really like to do at some point.
I'm not up to date with current policies, but there is a current module that can be taught.
Do the employers get a chance to choose a specific module for their apprentice??
I've been given some scans of the pages in the books, but not sure if I should publish the stuff in its entirety here.
Here is another page...for research and study...

Cheers,
Peter

http://www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/lmffm3024a_2.jpg

[L.S.Barker1970]

I've never seen a square head buzzer/planer in use at any workshop....anyone ever seen a crazy thrill-seeker with one of those running?

Cheers,
Peter

I remember seeing one many many years ago at the back then Sherman timber yard in Mentone, I was only young and it looked scary then even all rusted up not running.
the mill is all gone now, developed into housing etc...

Melbourne Matty.

[elanjacobs]

I'm not up to date with current policies, but there is a current module that can be taught.
Do the employers get a chance to choose a specific module for their apprentice??
I've been given some scans of the pages in the books, but not sure if I should publish the stuff in its entirety here.
Here is another page...for research and study...

Cheers,
Peter


From memory, that's all the book covered on square heads, the Chadstone campus certainly didn't have the facilities to teach it anyway. I'm not sure how much input the employer has, I know they can sign off on things that have been covered in the workplace but don't know what else they can do. I had some great teachers there who gave me pretty much free access to the whole workshop and they'd often go beyond the syllabus if I asked.

[L.S.Barker1970]

From memory, that's all the book covered on square heads, the Chadstone campus certainly didn't have the facilities to teach it anyway. I'm not sure how much input the employer has, I know they can sign off on things that have been covered in the workplace but don't know what else they can do. I had some great teachers there who gave me pretty much free access to the whole workshop and they'd often go beyond the syllabus if I asked.

Pete, many thanks for putting some of this material up, I'm glad square-heads get a small mention.
I have had a chance also to go through some of the learning Modules from the Furnishing Department Chadstone, there is some square head material but yes, it is basically just touched on.
I believe its a good thing for an instructor to at least run through with an apprentice the different types of tooling examples, just so they can understand the whole array of tooling choices, Pro's and con's, and also be able to identify a square-head cutter in any machine.
When teaching power tools, in a demonstration, I have an old plain steel saw blade to show my students what was used, and then introduce the TCT saw blade, it at least gives them some perspective.
Elan, you would not recognize Building 5 now, since the government funding cuts things have been very quiet.


Melbourne Matty.

[jcge]

Hi Matty

No experience with square heads per se, but it seems to me that the discussion of square vs round heads revolves around, in no particular order...
1) presentation angle of the cutting edge to the timber, and its capacity for tweaking (via projection, not grinding)
2) adequate support for the cutter
3) tolerance for operator setup error (tightening, balancing, projectile retention etc)
4) tolerance for component failure
4) propensity for kickback
5) the capacity to limit carnivorous activity once things have turned nasty.

there's others I'm sure (and I think you got all of these in your opening thread)

Regards
John

[L.S.Barker1970]

Hi Matty

No experience with square heads per se, but it seems to me that the discussion of square vs round heads revolves around, in no particular order...
1) presentation angle of the cutting edge to the timber, and its capacity for tweaking (via projection, not grinding)
2) adequate support for the cutter
3) tolerance for operator setup error (tightening, balancing, projectile retention etc)
4) tolerance for component failure
4) propensity for kickback
5) the capacity to limit carnivorous activity once things have turned nasty.

there's others I'm sure (and I think you got all of these in your opening thread)

Regards
John

John, fantastic summery, thank you.
I think you have it all there in a nut shell.

I wouldn't mind expanding on all of those as soon (if that's ok) as I can get some decent computer time.

Melbourne Matty.

[camoz]

Matty,

Great thread, lots of good information! I'm looking forward to seeing you expand on things when you get a chance.

cheers,

Camo

[specialist]

Thank you for the objective observations of square cutterheads:2tsup:

I personally can't see what is wrong with using them, having used some incredibly dangerous contraptions and machines in my 35 odd year careers of boilermaking, cabinet making and generally working around/with my father on properties in the west of queensland for as far back as I remember.

I will follow this thread with interest.

Rob

[elanjacobs]

Thank you for the objective observations of square cutterheads:2tsup:

I personally can't see what is wrong with using them, having used some incredibly dangerous contraptions and machines in my 35 odd year careers of boilermaking, cabinet making and generally working around/with my father on properties in the west of queensland for as far back as I remember.

I will follow this thread with interest.

Rob
It's not that there's anything wrong with them, they're just not quite as idiot proof or forgiving of lapses in concentration as some of the newer heads. 100% attention 100% of the time (which should always be the rule anyway) or things can go very bad very quickly.
That and the noise...soooo much noise

[L.S.Barker1970]

Kuffy, Cam and Rob, thank you for your comments, its great to see folk chiming in and talking about their experiences and concerns.
I was going to push on with John's hit list, I think its a good start at least to discuss, in some depth techniques and processes.

1) presentation angle of the cutting edge to the timber, and its capacity for tweaking (via projection, not grinding)

I use an old Wadkin NL grinding machine for grinding and sharpening my cutters, it cost me $300 at the time, problem was from Melbourne, I had to go all the way to Whyalla in SA to get it, what a road trip !
Its a beautiful machine and has done a bomb of cutter grinding for me over the years.
My angle Preference is set to 38 Degrees, I have found this angle to be the best for both hard woods and soft woods in general.
35 degrees is the best bevel set for hardwoods then running all the way up to 43 degrees for a longer bevel for softwoods.
Some may have a different take on this, happy to discuss it here more.
At the point of the cutter striking the timber to make the cut in theory, the longer the projection the more acute the cutting angle will be.
But the trap here is the greater the overhang of the unsupported cutter the greater the danger/risk for bending or breaking of the cutter.
Thicker cutters can be made to aid this and side braces/supports set up but over hang must still be kept to a minimum.
This all mainly concerns setting moulding machines, if I am running a deep profile with a lot of projection on cutters, I usually remove a great deal of the material prior to running, so the cutters are taking of the minimum of material and as to not load the cutters too much.
When I asked where do you start setting a cutter on a cutter block, how far out does it go? I was told many years ago that overhang and projection begins with bolt clearance.
I prefer to use bolts with a very flat nut as to give me as much clearance as possible.
Setting a Thicknesser is much easier, projection can be kept to a minimum from the edge of the block.
Here are some pic's below of my wadkin grinder and diagram of the cutting angle variation.

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Melbourne Matty.

[pmcgee]

Hi Matty

No experience with square heads per se, but it seems to me that the discussion of square vs round heads revolves around, in no particular order...
1) presentation angle of the cutting edge to the timber, and its capacity for tweaking (via projection, not grinding)
2) adequate support for the cutter
...
Regards
John

I wonder about this. Matty's picture shows the blades in exactly the same positions ... it's just like the round-head is a pregnant square-head.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355136/img138_zpsvg9jh2rk.jpg

[pmcgee]

I have a 20" Cooksley thicknesser with a square head and exposed belts (previously video'd).
It doesn't get used a great deal, but it has taken some large logs through and I love that damn thing.

Talking about noise ... I much prefer it's low, aeroplane engine sound to the high-pitched scream of the lunchbox thicknesser.
But sure, if someone was giving away spiral heads ... :)

There's also the factor that not all round-heads are approved of either.
I have a 12" clamshell-head jointer that is yet to be setup ... but I have read up about the head design.

Cheers,
Paul

[L.S.Barker1970]

I wonder about this. Matty's picture shows the blades in exactly the same positions ... it's just like the round-head is a pregnant square-head.



Paul, just keep an eye where the gent has his fingers, one cutter will take a lot more that the other, I'll stick with pregnant.
Love to see a pic of the cutter-head on your Cooksley, if you can manage it Paul, I have seen pics of your beast before, next door to you would know when to get up ...lol

Im either stone deaf or I'm just not hearing it, none of my square head machines are that loud.
One point I will emphasize on the subject of noise, is sharp blades play a big part, yes there is a lot of cutting through the air noise as square heads are not the most aerodynamic, but sharp blades will reduce much of the cutting noise.
My Barker thicknesser came with the worst set of blades I had ever seen, it looked like the Previous owner had been machining red gum sleepers, and yes they were loud and blunt.
A few hours to clean up sharpen and hone, set in the machine and wow what a difference, rather than the timber being vibrated to death you could actually hear it cut, and big fluffy shavings coming out the back, just the way the machine gods intended !

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355140/image-118_zpsjq5rz4gl.jpg
Before......
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355140/image-117_zpsxge9hvjy.jpg
After....
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355140/image-115_zpscqlsg3nj.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355140/image-116_zpstwjmr8qu.jpg
Melbourne Matty.

[auscab]

Nice pictures and thread Matt . And nice Barker , you going to paint it ?

Convoy Grey is the in thing these days they say down the Mens shed's.

I think it's the colour for when you really mean business! Like a Battle ship or a Holden :)

Your missus must love it when you get home , smelling of all that lovely Oregon .:D

I think I like the smell more than Huon in strong doses .

Rob

[elanjacobs]

Love the dust extraction, Matty :2tsup:
Don't let BobL see that or he'll have a heart attack

[auscab]

Matt, Ive got to get around to getting cutters made for this one day soon . I know who to go and see .
Do you think because those four little cutters ( two upper and two lower) are only working end grain that it would be a different bevel angle because of that ?

Rob

[L.S.Barker1970]

Nice pictures and thread Matt . And nice Barker , you going to paint it ?

Convoy Grey is the in thing these days they say down the Mens shed's.

I think it's the colour for when you really mean business! Like a Battle ship or a Holden :)

Your missus must love it when you get home , smelling of all that lovely Oregon .:D

I think I like the smell more than Huon in strong doses .

Rob

Rob yes it will be painted up sooner or later, I just wanted to get it going for now, make some money with it.
But yes, it will be Grey, the colour-bond colour is "ironstone" or traditionally known as "Machine Grey"
Lately I'm smelling more like a Mechanic with all the machinery restoration going on, but yes the Oregon is a great smell.
so is Huon too !!




Love the dust extraction, Matty :2tsup:
Don't let BobL see that or he'll have a heart attack


Thanks Elan, yes Bob would be less than impressed, but it is just temporary, Bob would have a heart attack if he saw how big the system is that we will be hooking up to.
Lets just say that every bit of flexible duct gets replaced every 6 months, as they basically get sucked apart.

Melbourne Matty.

[L.S.Barker1970]

Matt, Ive got to get around to getting cutters made for this one day soon . I know who to go and see .
Do you think because those four little cutters ( two upper and two lower) are only working end grain that it would be a different bevel angle because of that ?

Rob

Defiantly more of a scraping action would be better for end grain rob, the thing to watch out for on scribing cuts is tear out.
A more of an acute grind should help eliminate this, and it should hold its edge better too.
Finding cutters are not a problem either, if you know some one ......

Melbourne Matty.

[elanjacobs]

If you're happy to have an observer/extra pair of hands for the restoration I'll happily volunteer; I've pulled a few machines at work apart for repairs before.

I wish we had an extraction system like that, we've slowly been adding bigger machines to the system and the system just can't do it any more. I've started my campaign for a larger reverse-pulse extractor instead of the vibration-clean one we have now, but I don't see it happening any time soon; I'm not even going to bother asking for an increase in pipe size.

[L.S.Barker1970]

If you're happy to have an observer/extra pair of hands for the restoration I'll happily volunteer; I've pulled a few machines at work apart for repairs before.

I wish we had an extraction system like that, we've slowly been adding bigger machines to the system and the system just can't do it any more. I've started my campaign for a larger reverse-pulse extractor instead of the vibration-clean one we have now, but I don't see it happening any time soon; I'm not even going to bother asking for an increase in pipe size.

Elan, thanks for the offer and the enthusiasm, much appreciated, I may yet take you up on it !
We have both systems, the Vibration-clean seems more reliable, as every few months the large pulse system blocks up top because of the shape of the hopper (a design floor), not the most glamorous task to clean out, but hey, as far as suction is concerned its a winner, a serious bit of kit, no leaving any tools or small children near open ducts.

Melbourne Matty.

[elanjacobs]

Elan, thanks for the offer and the enthusiasm, much appreciated, I may yet take you up on it !
We have both systems, the Vibration-clean seems more reliable, as every few months the large pulse system blocks up top because of the shape of the hopper (a design floor), not the most glamorous task to clean out, but hey, as far as suction is concerned its a winner, a serious bit of kit, no leaving any tools or small children near open ducts.

Melbourne Matty.
The vibration-clean managed just fine for years with the larger chips from planing and sawing, but then we hooked it up to a 1350mm wide belt sander with 2x8" ports and now a 10" flexi hose to the CNC as well. The fine dust packs into the filter pleats and no amount of shaking gets it out; someone (fortunately not me) has to go out in a full suit and mask and blast compressed air through the filters to clear it.

[pmcgee]

Paul, just keep an eye where the gent has his fingers, one cutter will take a lot more that the other, I'll stick with pregnant.

Sure, I understand. I just meant as far as the blades acting on the wood, I couldn't see that these would change ...


1) presentation angle of the cutting edge to the timber, and its capacity for tweaking (via projection, not grinding)
2) adequate support for the cutter





Love to see a pic of the cutter-head on your Cooksley, if you can manage it Paul, I have seen pics of your beast before, next door to you would know when to get up ...lol
Melbourne Matty.
I had some pics here, and it refers to the video.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=170384

I'll get some photos of the actual head ... although I'm sure I have photographed it before.

When I got the blades sharpened initially, the guy tut-tutted about the non-closed slots. :)

Cheers,
Paul

[L.S.Barker1970]

Sure, I understand. I just meant as far as the blades acting on the wood, I couldn't see that these would change ..

When I got the blades sharpened initially, the guy tut-tutted about the non-closed slots. :)

Cheers,
Paul

Ahh, my bad, your right yes, because of the small projection on planers and thicknessers it does not change much.
The rule mainly applies to moulding profiles where there can be variation of the depth and change in projection.

Closed slots are a bit of a false comfort any way, lets face it if the bolts are loose in any way the blades will move forward and will do damage.

Melbourne Matty.

[jcge]

John, fantastic summery, thank you.
I think you have it all there in a nut shell.

I wouldn't mind expanding on all of those as soon (if that's ok) as I can get some decent computer time.

Melbourne Matty.

Matty - I wasn't trying to load you up with the task of elaboration, but if you're happy to, I'll certainly be reading !!!

I generated the list in the context of moulding (vs jointing and planning) and it's reminded me of Scrit's excellent writings on spindle moulder tooling on the Canadian forum.

edit.... added link to Scrit's writings
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?52088-Introduction-to-Spindle-Moulder-Tooling-with-Reference-to-Traditional-Tooling-Types&highlight=moulder

John

[jcge]

edit.... because of the small projection on planers and thicknessers it does not change much.
The rule mainly applies to moulding profiles where there can be variation of the depth and change in projection. ....edit

Melbourne Matty.

Thanks for clarifying my post Matty
Regards,
John

[L.S.Barker1970]

Matty - I wasn't trying to load you up with the task of elaboration, but if you're happy to, I'll certainly be reading !!!

I generated the list in the context of moulding (vs jointing and planning) and it's reminded me of Scrit's excellent writings on spindle moulder tooling on the Canadian forum.

edit.... added link to Scrit's writings
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?52088-Introduction-to-Spindle-Moulder-Tooling-with-Reference-to-Traditional-Tooling-Types&highlight=moulder

John

No problem John, but to save me some writing work any way it might be a good idea to introduce some useful reference books here as well.
I will push on ..

2) adequate support for the cutter

This is an important part as the very design of the square head cutter has the potential to pull apart under load, the spinning force and the cutting action creates the tendency to lift the cutter edge from the cutter block.
First of all lets cover knife Projection limits, below is a good reference chart for Solid HSS cutters, Laminated cutters you could halve this chart again.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355141/img150_zpsr6k1swv9.jpg
Also with cutter support this is why bolt condition is of the upmost importance (I will cover more of that next).
US Author W.H.Rohr in his book Machine moulder Practice has a whole chapter of bracing suggestions for heavy work none of which I have ever seen over here in Australia but thats not to say that it has not been done.
I have used thicker knives before when I need to run a deep cut, I do find that thicker knives run smother as they absorb much of the shock of a cut.
Here are some more useful reference books that I have read over the years and found very handy.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355141/img154_zpsnu9jliec.jpg
Principles of Machine Woodworking Four-Cutter Practice, by A.H.Haycock.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355141/img153_zpshzunuzhp.jpg
Cutters and Cutter-Blocks Stafford Ransome.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355141/img152_zpsrb11klfp.jpg
Machine Moulder Practice, W.H.Rohr.

Melbourne Matty.

[jcge]

Great references Matty - most (me included) wouldn't know where to search for such info
John

[jgforsberg]

thanks so much Matty for bring froward your knowledge and experience with this tooling. As always your notes are top shelf. Was surprised the tipped cutters don't reach as far a solid, and surprised how far solid do reach( 4 time thickness) Wow. those knife holder are cool and what an idea to support deep cuts. learning lots in this thread.

As a side i got an email from a gentleman with a 16" wadkin plate head that he has had the knife shatter into 100 or more pieces when planing a 8/4 12" board . No harm but i was surprised. Must have been a fracture or fault in the steel is my guess. the slotted knifes are hard to get and i had wounder if stock knifes had then been used and slots cut with a EDM and if some how that changed the property of the steel. I know lots of the tool grinders are using EDM to cut profiles to speed up grinding time and have not thought that to be a problem with the knife stock. What are your thoughts on the use of EDM for your solid and tipped cutters.

[L.S.Barker1970]

thanks so much Matty for bring froward your knowledge and experience with this tooling. As always your notes are top shelf. Was surprised the tipped cutters don't reach as far a solid, and surprised how far solid do reach( 4 time thickness) Wow. those knife holder are cool and what an idea to support deep cuts. learning lots in this thread.

As a side i got an email from a gentleman with a 16" wadkin plate head that he has had the knife shatter into 100 or more pieces when planing a 8/4 12" board . No harm but i was surprised. Must have been a fracture or fault in the steel is my guess. the slotted knifes are hard to get and i had wounder if stock knifes had then been used and slots cut with a EDM and if some how that changed the property of the steel. I know lots of the tool grinders are using EDM to cut profiles to speed up grinding time and have not thought that to be a problem with the knife stock. What are your thoughts on the use of EDM for your solid and tipped cutters.

Hi Jack, sorry Im days out here, had some big jobs to get out before Easter so no Toaster time here till now.
Thanks for you kind comments Jack, I've been keen to get a thread like this going on this subject as I mostly use square head tooling and wanted to share my experiences, good and bad.
I'm reluctant to use tipped cutters for big projection, the steel backing is much softer and doesn't have the support, in the Pic the text books state that this is the projections limits of solid HSS, I was surprised also, but as I have said, I would always take or reduce timber as much as possible so the cutters are removing very little and not under big loads.
Jack up till now I had not heard of EDM, I would be concerned about excess head generated from the process, and, would this change the steel in any way as you say ?.
I'm not sure on the finish either, rough perhaps ? cutters may need some additional grinding to finish.

Melbourne Matty.

[elanjacobs]

I also had never heard of EDM and I agree that the heat build-up might be an issue. Weinig rough out their pre-made profile knives with water-jet cutters to get around that problem.

[ab1]

This is a fantastic thread. As I've previously posted, I have a Wolfenden 20" square thicknesser from around the 1950's. I have been thinking about updating due to safety concerns, however, after reading this, I'm having second thoughts. The cutterhead appears to be in good condition, however, the bolts appear to be original.
I have 2 questions if I may.
1. The blades are reaching the end of their life. Where do you suggest I purchase new ones from? I'm located in Wantirna.
2. How do you go about setting the cutters on the cutterhead?
Cheers,
Andrew.

[Allison74]

Lots of brilliant info. Matty. I don't have any square heads but some of the cutters on my Mill are bolt on in a very similar way and I worried about some of the more extreme projections.

Thanks for getting this going.

Have fun,
Alli

[chambezio]

What an informative thread this has been!!!!!
I have a Macson/Barker 12" Jointer that has a round cutter block with knives that are about 5 mm thick, while my 12" Thicknesser, a Jeffwood, has a square cutting head sporting knives that are 12 mm thick.
I watched Norm mill some architraves using a "lunch box" type thicky with custom ground knives. I figured that the Jeffwood could do the same job and probably a bit better due to the bulk of heavy cast iron.
I asked one tool sharpening crowd in Sydney about cutting some knives for it and they told me to go back to the manufacturer and source them from there. I wish!!
Do you know of a crowd that could make some profiled knives in Aus?
Its a fancy full notion, I have, to get cutters to run a particular moulding for a job as being retired I don't really have a project in mind that would warrant the expenditure
Its been great reading about what these "old" machines were capable in their day and really they are still capable even with the authorities doing their best to get them out of the picture.

[pmcgee]

Some pics as requested ...

I have last used it while making a front pergola-type thing out of some pretty solid 2" 2ndhand hardwood
... planing completed ... pergola, not so much. :rolleyes:

So I cleaned up one side, they both had some melted paint build-up on the blade.

343971 343972 343973 343974 343975

and the maker's mark on the blades ...

343976

[L.S.Barker1970]

This is a fantastic thread. As I've previously posted, I have a Wolfenden 20" square thicknesser from around the 1950's. I have been thinking about updating due to safety concerns, however, after reading this, I'm having second thoughts. The cutterhead appears to be in good condition, however, the bolts appear to be original.
I have 2 questions if I may.
1. The blades are reaching the end of their life. Where do you suggest I purchase new ones from? I'm located in Wantirna.
2. How do you go about setting the cutters on the cutterhead?
Cheers,
Andrew.


Hi Andrew,

Great questions, and you have a lot of options there, top of the list would financially not be a spiral head, not cheep but a beautiful thing none the less.
second could be chasing a second hand circular head with thin knives, as many thicknessers are being converted to spiral, the old head can end up being sold of, then getting it fitted up to your Wolfenden, bearing journals turned down to suit, etc.
Another is to have a head made up from scratch, this could be expensive also, finding a good fitter and machinist may also prove to be a challenge.
These are all good options, but money must be a big consideration, if you get a heap of use out of your thicknesser then it may be wise.

As for your Square head options, Jalor Tools PTY Ltd. - About - Google+ (https://plus.google.com/109231025613920072770/about?gl=au&hl=en) are great saw Doctor's, and will make up a set of blades for you, but they will not be cheap as there is a substantial amount of milling and slotting work to cut the recesses for the bolts not to mention the outlay for the blanks of HSS.
If you are friendly with some one with a milling machine yes, perhaps purchase your own HSS blanks of steel and cut your own slots, there are a few places that can supply just the material, I know one such place, but PM me for details as I will not recommend them for any thing else except to supply HSS steel.
Andrew, check the condition of your Bolts also, for wear and stretched threads, if any thing looks suspect replace it even all of them, its not worth the risk.

Setting your Square head thicknesser is easy, get a hold of two super hard plastic blocks out of such products as Vesconite for instance, size 35mm X 16mm X 100mm.( the 16mm thickness must be accurate) the hard plastic will not damage the new sharp edge of the blade.
Place your blocks at either end of the cutter-head resting under the cutter-head but laying flat on the bottom thicknesser table, move the table adjustment up to 16mm on the rule.
Set your sharp blade on to the cutter-head and do up bolts finger tight allowing a small amount of projection, overhang/projection on the cutter-head may differ according to the roller and chip breaker positions, I usually start with around 5 to 7 mm and see where it goes.
Rotate the cutter backwards buy hand until the cutter blade point touches the hard plastic block and the bolts only being hand tight will allow the cutter to find its own height of 16 mm from the table, its a bit of a feel thing but you should be able to feel the cutter touch the plastic block and move into position, if it misses the block, simply loosen the blade, bring the blade out further and repeat the process.
A small brass or copper hammer may be used for any fine adjustment to the blade, then a final tighten once you are happy with the settings.


Melbourne Matty.

[L.S.Barker1970]

Lots of brilliant info. Matty. I don't have any square heads but some of the cutters on my Mill are bolt on in a very similar way and I worried about some of the more extreme projections.

Thanks for getting this going.

Have fun,
Alli

Thanks Alli

I have seen some of the cutters that come with those pattern milling machine, scary, ya but amazing too.
Alli I honestly think you will be fine, small controlled cuts on those machines, there's heaps of adjustment there too.
Those mills are also so big and substantial that any cutting chatter will just be absorbed too.
Im so looking forward to seeing it run.

Melbourne Matty.

[L.S.Barker1970]

What an informative thread this has been!!!!!
I have a Macson/Barker 12" Jointer that has a round cutter block with knives that are about 5 mm thick, while my 12" Thicknesser, a Jeffwood, has a square cutting head sporting knives that are 12 mm thick.
I watched Norm mill some architraves using a "lunch box" type thicky with custom ground knives. I figured that the Jeffwood could do the same job and probably a bit better due to the bulk of heavy cast iron.
I asked one tool sharpening crowd in Sydney about cutting some knives for it and they told me to go back to the manufacturer and source them from there. I wish!!
Do you know of a crowd that could make some profiled knives in Aus?
Its a fancy full notion, I have, to get cutters to run a particular moulding for a job as being retired I don't really have a project in mind that would warrant the expenditure
Its been great reading about what these "old" machines were capable in their day and really they are still capable even with the authorities doing their best to get them out of the picture.


Hi Rod,
Jeffwood thicknessers were designed to also run small mouldings, it actually mentions this in the users manual.
Cutters can also be ordered from Jalor Tools PTY Ltd. - About - Google+ (https://plus.google.com/109231025613920072770/about?gl=au&hl=en)

Here is a page from the manual showing an example...

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355142/img155_zpszhdsuyrf.jpg
Melbourne Matty.

[L.S.Barker1970]

Some pics as requested ...

I have last used it while making a front pergola-type thing out of some pretty solid 2" 2ndhand hardwood
... planing completed ... pergola, not so much. :rolleyes:

So I cleaned up one side, they both had some melted paint build-up on the blade.





Nice looking cutter head Paul, the middle slot is to run moulding cutters also.
The blades are on their last sharpen, any good saw doctors in Perth ?

Melbourne Matty.

[jgforsberg]

I also had never heard of EDM and I agree that the heat build-up might be an issue. Weinig rough out their pre-made profile knives with water-jet cutters to get around that problem.


I was told by my machinist (tool and Die ) friend that EDM is the only safe way to cut brazed tooling with out damage to the braze weld from heat. the cutting is done under water and its said to be

better than grinding i am told. I asked because i am having some old square head tooling that is carbide brazed to mild steel 1/2" cut to make cutters for the trenching Heads


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBueWfzb7P0


great thread

jack
English machines

[L.S.Barker1970]

2) adequate support for the cutter , cont..


Thought I would push on with this thread, I have a bit of interesting stuff to show and felt the need to start with some talk on Bolt condition.
The Bolts that hold the cutter in place are probably the most crucial aspect to the function of a square head cutter.
I know, I have gone on a bit about "bolt condition' but for me it can be the start of most square head cutter accidents.
Over tightening can be a big oversight upon setting up, yes, there is the need to have cutters well attached to the head, but putting a length of water pipe over a spanner for leverage is a big no, it puts way too much pressure on bolts.
For tightening up bolts a 300mm long spanner with enough physical force is plenty, any more is over kill.
If needed, this can be checked with a torque wrench set at around 100 to 110 lbs, but I will always prefer to hand tighten, its a feel thing.
New bolts are the best, its like putting on a freshly washed and ironed shirt, I guess what I am trying to say is that its like most things, all bolts will basically have a shelf life, how they are cared for will extend the life of the bolt, over tighting and abuse will only bind and stretch the thread leading to a shorter amount of use.
Never oil the threads nor soak bolts in oil, keep dry and rust free, if a lubricant must be used then graphite is acceptable.
A good test for threads is to remove the nut from the bolt and turn it over/upside down and if it threads back on to the bolt the condition is good, if not then the thread has been compromised.
Below are some great examples of over tightening and wear on threads.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355145/image-133_zpswm5qge01.jpg

These are dovetail bolts from a larger square head, the top bolt is stretched enough to angle the thread away from the bolt, where as the bottom bolt is still in reasonable condition.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355145/image-131_zpsbjhl5wdr.jpg

These are bolts from a square head thicknesser, and again the top bolt is stretched and shows visible signs of distortion, where as the bottom bolt is still quite usable.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae301/matty355/matty355145/image-132_zpsieryc6uw.jpg

And the last example, these are from a Jeffwood thicknesser, very small bolts and easily over tightened. the top example is unusable, the bottom is still in reasonable condition.

Melbourne Matty.

[jayeson]

Sorry bump and old thread, but wanted to share some second hand experience.

Someone visiting my shop in 2004 saw my old jointer and held up his hand. It looked just like the pic from the Oliver catalogue Matty posted earlier in the thread, only with just slightly more of each finger left. My jointer had a round head which was hidden from view and I was able to confirm that his accident was with a square head.

I have seen one square head jointer in person - was in an old line shafted shop that had not be used in a long time - many babbitt bearing machines. The jointer was an 16" and I'm pretty sure from mainland Europe. Funny thing, there was also a very early 12" Barker jointer there - round head of course - and was the newest machine in the shop. It appeared that even the shop owner thought exposed belting everywhere at below waist level was OK (the belting ran under and across the floor), he was sufficiently afraid of the square head jointer to buy something safer.

- Jayeson