Saw makers ????

[Simplicity]

I have often wondered what the Economic viability would be like making boutique saws and other small hand tools. In today's market.
I know we have three well know hand tool makers here in Australia. That I know of, plus a host from os.
And who all seem too do a ton of work promoting there lines of tools and we'll done to them.
So there must be a market there .
But it is a market for luxury goods to, which can fluctuate quite a bit I imagine .
Now I've never personally brought a boutique saw .

But going by the prices of say a Pax or lie Nelson saw .
If your boutique saws were a little more say $350/$500 for a dovetail or small back saw( I've really got know idea on this one what one will cost)or even more importantly what the market will pay .

Your able to set up and produce say 4/6 saws a week and more importantly move than on sell them.
This I personally think would be the hardest point .
Yes I know that may seem a lot of saws to make .

But I think maybe possibly if your smart about the way you work ie set up tool and do twenty operations before moving on to your next task.
And you have low over heads to help
What's everyone else's view on this ??
Just my thoughts so I'm not watching brain draining tv

[planemaker]

Hi Matt. As a cost comparison of my work to that of other boutique saw makers, I have set a price of Au$325.00. for the tiger myrtle; 16 inch tenon saw.

If I had to rely on my saw making work to pay the bills and feed the family, that price would be higher.

Stewie;

[Heavansabove]

Hi Matt. As a cost comparison of my work to that of other boutique saw makers, I have set a price of Au$325.00. for the tiger myrtle; 16 inch tenon saw.

If I had to rely on my saw making work to pay the bills and feed the family, that price would be higher.

Stewie;

I would starve if relied on making things to pay bills! Besides my age, I am pretty slow and clumsy with my hands anyway. I do it for interest. My brain still works ok - a bit slower - and whilst I finally retired last year [I semi-retired over 15 years ago], I can't help myself and have done some consulting recently, and currently have 3 (easy) projects on. Helps to pay for the 4+ months of travel each year I suppose.

I very much respect those with the dedication and skills to make a living making tools - and I should probably support them more than I do. I think Stewie's work is the equal at least of what is being done in the US, and he is pricing accordingly, but I suspect at less per hour than what he used to earn before retiring! I am selling most of my vintage tools (all those I do not use anyway), and buying a small number of new tools that I will use, mainly from small makers (except saws obviously).

[IanW]

I think the only way to find out what the market is, is to test it by supplying products!

Speaking for myself, if I were to ask enough for a saw to cover an hourly rate of say, $40 (rather meagre for skilled work!), plus materials and consumables (it's been taking at least one file per 12" saw, with the rubbish files I've gotten lately!), the price would be in the stratosphere. For any of the tools I've been making, I ask a price that I think the (limited) market will happily bear, and leave me with a tolerable amount after paying costs. The difference between my 'realistic' price and what it would be if charged by logical rules, is the cost of happiness - mine, I'm getting at least as much pleasure out of making the objects as anyone else will get from using it. This is not a viable business model... :;

If you are serious about wanting to get into commercial sawmaking, or any other tools, you need to figure out some sort of business plan. That means you need to know your costs of production. Making saws one at at time, by the relatively primitive methods I employ, just isn't a viable business, it's a privilege I can enjoy because I've retired from my day job (sort of! :roll:). To make a living at it, I think you would need to invest in some decent machinery to do the routine, repetitive work, leaving you time to concentrate on those bits that benefit from handwork, and still maintain a useful rate of production. I suspect it would still be a struggle, but then most start-up businesses seem to be, and many don't progress beyond that point! :C

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

Some good and valid points so far[emoji106]

[Luke Maddux]

This is a very interesting topic. I'm not a sawmaker, but I do make saws blunt from time to time, and I recently sought out and was lucky enough to have made a set of boutique saws, so as someone who is on the consumer end of this thread, maybe it's worth me rambling for a minute.

I think one of the key statements in your post is the phrase "In today's market." We live in a time when woodworking is referred to as a "Lost Art" and most people are learning on power tools and then maybe becoming intrigued by and moving toward hand tools (*raises hand awkwardly*). Bunnings sells saws for $20 which, in theory, can do what a $500 saw can do. So your market is people like me who have a "Buy it nice or buy it twice" mentality and a vested interest, for one reason or another, in "style points". When I am buying hand tools I either buy the upper tier new stuff, the vintage stuff that has that "They don't make 'em like they used to" thing going for it, or handmade tools. I enjoy the satisfaction of being able to say "Well, I never have to worry about buying [insert thing I will one day buy again] again. Good. One less thing."

Saws are unique in that they have a lot of wood happening on them. Chisels are just a spindle. Only so much you can do with that, not to mention you're going to beat it to a pulp. Plane totes and knobs are kind of a standard shape. But with the saw, there is a lot of room for embellishment, design, and creativity, but you still have a basic shape which is steeped in tradition, so the possibility certainly exists to acquire something which is truly special. Not to mention the fact that the saw is arguably the most iconic symbol in woodworking (albeit likely eclipsed by the plane).

In my personal situation, I am an American living in Australia temporarily, and I wanted something that was made in Australia with unique Australian timbers so that I could take it home and appreciate them for years to come. Hopefully pass them on one day. When I initiated my search I was definitely surprised that no one in Australia was doing it on an enterprise scale similar to Bad Axe or Blackburn in the US. I totally agree that this is a niche market which someone could fill with the right business model. As far as the business model, refer to Ian's post above, but with the number of exquisite, world class hardwoods which are available here, it's a wonder someone hasn't leapt at the opportunity.

That said, while I have never made a saw, I can relate to what it means to be overexposed to something and lose interest. Before my first piece of furniture was even a twinkle in my eye, I had been rock climbing for ten years. For two of those years I worked in a climbing gym and did some casual mountain guiding. I eventually had a moment where I realized that although I had been around climbing more recently than ever before, I couldn't even remember the last time I called my friend Alex and we just "went climbing". When something you love becomes your day to day life, it starts to be less about the joy of doing it and more about just... doing it. So I think something like boutique toolmaking is not for everyone, and you have to be ready to immerse yourself in something that, over time, you may find yourself less interested in... So you better d--- well be making some cash off of it!

Another thing I noticed in my search is that almost no one worldwide is making both backsaws AND traditional, taper-ground hand saws. The process is apparently quite different and they don't go hand in hand like you (or at least I) would think. So there's a million dollar idea for you. My consultation fee is payable in bitcoins.

Anyway... just my $0.02.

Interested to see what others have to say.

Cheers,
Luke

[Ron Bontz]

Interesting thoughts.
What do you consider "an enterprise scale" ? What parameters do you use to define a "boutique" saw? What would you consider a saw made with outsourced parts, cnc machines, and assembled by hand? Would you be willing to pay $500.00 USD for a 26" D8 semi reproduction saw when you could obtain a vintage D8 for $5.00 to $100.00 for a restored vintage hand saw? A lot of variables involved. Obviously I have only questions. But I am always curious what others think.

[Luke Maddux]

Interesting thoughts.
What do you consider "an enterprise scale" ? What parameters do you use to define a "boutique" saw? What would you consider a saw made with outsourced parts, cnc machines, and assembled by hand? Would you be willing to pay $500.00 USD for a 26" D8 semi reproduction saw when you could obtain a vintage D8 for $5.00 to $100.00 for a restored vintage hand saw? A lot of variables involved. Obviously I have only questions. But I am always curious what others think.

Ron,

Great questions. I can only provide opinions of course, but I will do my best.

When I said enterprise scale, I guess I meant a genuine business that has things like:

-A website
-A name
-Defined product lines
-Willingness to take on as much work as comes in
-At least some focus on profit

And boutique, to me, means:

-Extreme focus on quality
-Mutual understanding of the craft for which the tool is intended by both the maker and end user
-Ability to communicate with the craftsman making the item of interest
-Ability to play a role, to within reason, in the design and materials selection process

Blackburn tools and Harold and Saxon are textbook examples. From what I gather from browsing your website, Ron, your operation also falls into my personal definition of a "boutique enterprise".

Your next question is tough... I don't care if the teeth of the saw are stamped vs hand filed. They will be hand filed by me eventually. I know this got a bit heated in the saw file post but my two cents is that it doesnt matter. I don't care if the saw plate was forged and milled in house, so I guess as far as that goes I don't really care about outsourced parts. But the handle... Hard to say. I don't really like the idea of a CNC shaped handle, but I'm not saying it's a deal breaker. At the end of the day if it looks great and cuts great and the person selling it is good to deal with... I may still end up buying. If I knew that, between two identical saws, one was shaped by a hand I had shaken in person and another by a machine... I would want the handmade saw, but it's hard for me to say how much more it would be worth to me monetarily, although the answer is definitely "something".

I wouldnt pay $500 for any saw. In my opinion that's too much hands down, but others would disagree. I'm also a collector of early Disston saws and part of the enjoyment is finding old saws and cleaning them up, so I'm the wrong person to ask on that. I can comment that when I first started looking for what turned into a handmade set of backsaws, I was interested in full sized handsaws as well, but I still wouldn't have paid $500.

Cheers,
Luke

[planemaker]

Interesting thoughts.
What do you consider "an enterprise scale" ? What parameters do you use to define a "boutique" saw? What would you consider a saw made with outsourced parts, cnc machines, and assembled by hand? Would you be willing to pay $500.00 USD for a 26" D8 semi reproduction saw when you could obtain a vintage D8 for $5.00 to $100.00 for a restored vintage hand saw? A lot of variables involved. Obviously I have only questions. But I am always curious what others think.

Hi Ron. You raise some interesting questions. I personally dont see a big enough market for D8 style handsaws at a cost of around $500.00 USD. Based on the obvious fact you can still purchase a vintage handsaw of reputable quality that's far cheaper in price.

On the question of what defines a boutique saw maker. I am yet to come across any serious definition.

Do I see a viable market 5 years from now to support the current number of small scale boutique saw makers. The odds will favor those who have sought a long term strategy to remain cost competitive.

Interesting subject.

Stewie;

[planemaker]

On the subject of remaining cost competitive, I was in discussion recently with a buyer from Germany who wanted to purchase the 16 inch Tiger Myrtle Tenon Saw. At my asking price of Au$325.00 ( Euro$230.00), if he included the postal costs, custom duties, an import tax of 19%, plus a surcharge for a credit card transaction, the final cost of the backsaw would increase to Euro$340 - $350.00. (Au$485 - $500.00). The sale did not proceed on that basis.

With an expected further deterioration of the euro against other major currencies, imported goods for those within the Euro-zone are likely to become more expensive into the foreseeable future.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Since nobody has directly and comprehensively addressed the substance of the question posed here I'll relate my thoughts.

I've done some back-of-the-napkin-calculations on the saw making effort. There are five main cost centers in order of importance.

1) Time/labor

2) Overhead including tools, cost of money, manufacturing and storage area costs

3) Monetary expenses such as taxes and fees including income taxes, sales taxes on materials, eBay seller fees, shipping expenses and so on

4) Materials

5) Outsourced services such as engraving, subcontracted parts manufacturing, website expenses, credit card processing fees etc.

Take for example an open handled dovetail saw that is at least partially hand-made. These retail for between $125 to about $200 depending on the maker.

Speaking from my experience making saws the time involved is the major expense. I can make a small dovetail saw in 10 to 15 hours. Approximately 80% of that time is spent forming, fitting and finishing the handle. The metalwork is for me relatively straightforward. I've instituted procedures to streamline my workflow and produce batches of parts including backs, handle blanks, plate blanks, bushings and so on. Let's assume I'm very efficient all of the time and invest 10 hours per saw. Thus, at the US minimum wage rate of $8.25/hr a saw 'costs' $82.50 for me to build.

The materials for a dovetail saw run between $15 and $35 or so depending on the particulars, i.e. a Gabon ebony tote is far more expensive than is a beech tote. Stainless backs are more expensive than are mild steel backs. Purchased screws cost more than home-spun screws and so on. Larger saws cost somewhat more because of the increased quantities of materials used but the differences are not huge. Materials for panel and handsaws are generally less expensive than for backsaws but handsaws consume more labor time due to plate processing methods including taper-grinding, hammer-tensioning, tempering and cryotreatment. So, for the cheaper materials a dovetail saw will cost about $20. Thus our total now is $102.50.

If this hypothetical saw is sold on eBay the overall fees amount to about 12% of the sale price ($15). Shipping runs about 10% ($12.50). Not all saws sell on eBay so let's figure that these two factors cost about $20/saw for the average batch of saws, bringing our total to $122.50, roughly equal to the lower end of the price range for a semi-handmade saw.

Overhead is a trickier subject. I've got a fair bit of change invested in tools that are used to make saws and though I haven't worn out any of my high end rasps yet I'm sure that eventually I will. Consumables include sand-paper, Diapads, solvents, finishes, electricity, repair parts, stones, files, adhesives, cryogens etc. My work and storage space also has costs including property taxes and maintenance. There is some fuel use involved related to shipping and services. There is also the cost of money. Overhead rates for government grants are usually in the range of 50 to 65%. An overhead of 50% applied to our dovetail saw gives us a cost of $245, beyond the top of the range for dovetail saws in the US.

Services also add to the pricing. The only service I outsource is engraving. I know that other makers outsource many more components, some to the point that they are really functioning as 'assemblers' rather than 'custom handsaw makers'.

At this point a hand made dovetail saw involving a minimum of outsourced parts ought to sell for something like $250 to $275 depending on incorporated embellishments. Paradoxically a larger saw, such as a 28 inch miter saw or a large handsaw, should only cost $25 to $30 more. It is of course possible to make the saw cost more by incorporating very expensive components but I think that the maximum might be about $50. This assumes of course that you don't make a Pablo Escobar/Saddam Hussein/Liberace style solid gold diamond encrusted monstrosity. Realistically though a large handsaw shouldn't cost more than about $350 or so if you're paying yourself something comparable to the US minimum wage. If you treble that to $25/hour ($50,000/year full-time) you get an upper bound of $500 or so, a price that would not be paid as stated above.

Typically for manufactured items the cost-of-goods is between 4 and 10 times the cost materials. This varies over a wide range of course. Applying this standard and using a materials cost of $20 this gives us a price range of $80 to $200 for a manufactured saw. The $80 figure coincides nicely with the Veritas plastic-fantastic dovetail saws and the $200 figure corresponds to the price of the better known and or higher quality custom makers. For manufactured saws economies of scale also come into play and there are very steep discounts for bulk purchases of outsourced components, but then you have an increased cost of money from the investment in those yet to be sold components. Manufactured saws however are not hand-made saws.

Overall, making saws is not really a way to make money if you're doing the work by hand. If you don't mind outsourcing component manufacturing to slave-wage countries AND you have a good sales volume you can probably make a decent living, otherwise it's just beer-money.

As to taxes you'll notice I haven't added anything. The reason is that making saws doesn't really make money and the tools are, in the US at least, a tax deduction. So net zero here.

For the buyers of course the present-day custom made handsaw is an absolute bargain. $150 may seem like a lot of money for a dovetail saw but if it is hand-made the maker is really working for peanuts.

[NCArcher]

Thus, at the US minimum wage rate of $8.25/hr a saw 'costs' $82.50 for me to build.


The current minimum wage in Australia is $16.87/hr and the cost of everything else is usually higher in Aus as well. With a much smaller customer base I think it would be nearly impossible to make a living as a boutique saw maker.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. US$150.00 to purchase a dovetail saw from one of the better known boutique saw makers is a little light on with the price. For example with Bad Axe, Blackburn, and Bontz, an open handle 10" dovetail saw has a starting price of $225.00, $235.00, and $250.00. That's with a handle wood of plain American Beech or Cherry. Handle wood that has some real grain feature is supplied at an additional cost. Going from a steel spine, to a brass, or a bronze will also make a big difference to the final price. Any fancy profiling work to the spine shape also adds an additional component cost.

All represent fair and reasonable cost variants to the boutique saw makers work. Like any small business trying to survive, those costs do need to be passed onto the customer.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Stewie,

I was thinking of Lie Nielsen with the ~$125 starting price and Wenzloff at around $170. Prices have been increasing lately though as you point out.

To put my points somewhat succinctly; 1) Dovetail saws (seemingly the most popular size/configuration), if handmade, are currently under-priced and 2) Given that most of the cost of a handmade saw is due to labor and overhead there really isn't much material based justification for large differences in prices of hand made saws unless exotic materials are used. The majority of the work goes into the handle and given that every hand saw has a handle the prices of hand saws shouldn't be too different going from smaller to larger. At this point the metals for the back are the single most expensive component of a backsaw with bronze ~> 304 SS > brass >>> mild steel.

I think your 16 inch saw merits a price around what you're asking, probably more considering the AUD is currently trading at about 0.76 USD.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. You raise some very good points. Certainly in my case, the cost of working with more exotic handle woods has an important bearing on the final price I am having to ask for my saw making work. The inclusion of a traditional lambs tongue on my closed handles also has an important bearing on the complexity of work undertaken.

Stewie;

[Heavansabove]

for those interested in handle making c 1912 http://blog.lostartpress.com/2015/04/06/woods-used-in-saw-handles/, Henry would have loved a cnc machine.

[derekcohen]

To state the obvious, the difference between a professional sawmaker and an amateur is that the former does it for a living, either in whole or part. "Production" and "Boutique" sawmakers are about the size of the operation. There may be many part-time boutique sawmakers around, and some do produce saws as good as, if not usually better than, the full-time pros. However the part-timers have that rare commodity that full-timers do not ... time.

Time changes everything. This is the bottom line. Material costs are the same for all sawmakers (unless you buy in bulk and obtain a discount ... but then we are moving from the boutique- to the production sawmaker).

Several years ago this topic was hotly debated on one of the US forums. It began after I posted a review of an Eccentric Tools saw, made by Andrew Lunn, then considered one of the top boutique sawmakers. At that time Andrew, was producing some of the best saws available, and at about $170, they were about 20% more expensive than his mentor, Mike Wenzloff. The review I wrote was about a carcase saw I purchased. A few months later, Andrew increased his price to $350. There was an outcry on the forums. My own opinion, which I voiced, was that the price was appropriate for the time involved in making a custom backsaw. All one had to do was compare the costs of a planemaker, such as Old Street, to recognise that sawmakers had long been lagging behind in regard to prices.

Andrew was building saws fulltime, having quit his job to do so. He had a long waiting list and believed that potential buyers would accept the new price. And they did so. No doubt many potential buyers opted to go elsewhere, somewhere cheaper, but he was still going strong when he quit sawmaking about 2 years later. By that stage he had burnt out. The fact is, he simply could not maintain the quality with the intensity demanded at his standard for a handmade saw that took no production short-cuts.

I suspect that the reason why custom saw prices generally stay low is that full-timers like Andrew cannot sustain the pace, and leave. Those that remain are part-timers who do not rely on high prices to sustain them (which is NOT saying that the first group prices are inflated). Guys like Mike Wenzloff, an old friend of mine, early on made the decision to remain competitive with a combination of production and hands-on construction, and accepted a lower selling price. His saws are simply the bargain of the century because of this. Other sawmakers, such any of those mentioned here (too many to name, and I am punching this on an iPad) are equally as capable. None that I know (do correct me) do this full time.

At the end of the day it comes down to cost of producing the saw. If you need a profit to live, then realistic costs drive the price up. With few exceptions, such as companies like LN and LV, where production methods can reduce the time element, the only other saws will likely come from part-timers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simplicity]

One point that I don't think has been brought up yet ,
And please correct me if I'm wrong .
Is sourcing saw plate and a ready supply of slotted brass backs or going the folded back ?
.Or laminating a back ?
Tho I'm not sure how laminated backs would be received in the market place !!
The saw plate I think would be the hardest to obtain in small quantities ie not a one ton roll. In Australia
Talking to Dale who ran the saw making workshop in Melbourne that was one of the big hurtles to over come .
Tho it must be available some were .
Guys in the states seem to be able to obtain it.
The slotted brass backs and saw bolts could possibly be made by a hobby machinist in the small quantise needed.
Folded backs I'm not sure on that one .
But on a plus we do have some fantastic timbers to choose from for handles tote.
And I'm enjoying reading the response so far .

[IanW]

My responses to your questions would be:

The saw plate is not a huge problem as long as you want to buy substantial amounts. The actual amounts aren't very large if you are planning to make saws in batches of 50 or more, but a good deal more than an occasional saw maker would ever need! Dale did all the hard work of importing the stuff we used for the w'shop, so he's the lad to talk to about minimum quantities, & actual cost per foot, landed at your door. IIRC, it worked out at somewhere between 6 & 12$s a blade, depending on actual size & gauge. We were lucky in that we didn't incur any sales tax for the w'shop plate, but that would apply as soon as you started importing commercial quantities on a regular basis.

Folded backs are simply not a viable option for me - it's almost impossible to buy brass suitable for folding in this country, the only readily available stuff is 380, which is fine for machining, but far too brittle to fold. Bought by the 3.6M length, 3/4x 1/4" brass works out at around 6-8 $s per saw for raw material, before you work it into the finished spine. I neither have, nor have access to a brake, or anything suitable for folding backs, anyway. That leaves me pretty well stuck with slotting. The cost of some gear to do that was pretty minimal, the trade-off is that my system is primitive, and a right pita to set up. However, once set up, I can run off a dozen or so in a pretty short time. The product I get this way is vastly superior in terms of neatness & accuracy, compared with anything I could do by folding. As long as a spine id straight & fits firmly, it does the job equally well, as far as I can see. I'm sure laminating would be mechanically fine, & might look rather interesting if done well.

Making saw bolts & nuts on a centre lathe one at a time is easy but boring, and at a going rate of 4-5 $ per bolt, won't pay a big proportion of your grocery bills (DAMHIK!). Someone with the right gear could churn them out by the thousands for way less than that, but you'll need to do your shopping somewhere to the north of us & be prepared to make a minimum order of 5,000 to get that sort of price.

And yes, we are awash with interesting species for handles, but it is far from easy to get your hands on other than pitiful quantities of dry wood ready to use. You would need to to be very pro-active in building up your wood supply before you start advertising any saws. Making handles is the area where a bit of gear would definitely help! If you could get them roughed-out by machine the way the saw makers of old did, and only had to do the cleaning up & detailing by hand, it could speed that process up by a factor of 10 or more.....

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

Wow
Thanks Ian that was a fast response
Thank you for that.
Matt

[Simplicity]

I just had a friend do a quick search to find out how many people Search the net over a given period( not the sort off thing I would know how to do)
The period being one month
There were 3600 searches done for dovetail saws
And 1900 done for back saw
In Australia only apparently
Bottom off the page

344266

[rob streeper]

One point that I don't think has been brought up yet ,
And please correct me if I'm wrong .
Is sourcing saw plate and a ready supply of slotted brass backs or going the folded back ?
.Or laminating a back ?
Tho I'm not sure how laminated backs would be received in the market place !!
The saw plate I think would be the hardest to obtain in small quantities ie not a one ton roll. In Australia
Talking to Dale who ran the saw making workshop in Melbourne that was one of the big hurtles to over come .
Tho it must be available some were .
Guys in the states seem to be able to obtain it.
The slotted brass backs and saw bolts could possibly be made by a hobby machinist in the small quantise needed.
Folded backs I'm not sure on that one .
But on a plus we do have some fantastic timbers to choose from for handles tote.
And I'm enjoying reading the response so far .


Hi Matt,

I fold my saw backs and sourcing raw material has proven to be no problem, even in relatively small quantities, from Online Metals (http://www.onlinemetals.com/). They have a great customer service department too.

Saw plate was formerly more of a problem but now Zoro Tools (http://www.zoro.com/) is carrying 1095 steel in all of the sizes needed and their customer service is also great. 1095 steel in rolls and sheets regularly shows up on eBay too.

Screws are somewhat more difficult. You can buy from one of the custom saw makers or use the 'adequate' dome head screws from Amazon, use Chicago screws, sex bolts (yes, that's what they're called), barrel bolts, binding bolts or binding posts (all available from Zoro) or you can roll your own.
Manufactured screws are expensive. For a 1000 piece lot of small (7/16") screws in 360 brass with split nuts the delivered price is $3.940/ea. with the nut being the more expensive component at $1.833/ea. Larger fittings are of course more expensive. This price is still a bargain compared to some specialized fasteners that are commercially available. Zoro for instance sells an architectural sex bolt set for $39.71 (http://www.zoro.com/g/Architectural%20Sex%20Bolt/00167721/). Thus a $6 to $8 retail price for saw bolt with nut is not unrealistic considering that the seller has a significant investment in a large lot of very specialized, practically single use, hardware.

Cheers,
Rob

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Derek,
I only wish to disagree on one point. The time factor. As a "part time" saw maker, time is exactly what I do not have. After a 53 to 56 hour week at the fire house I then have to come home and, of course make saws. While I am certainly no threat to other saw makers with respect to volume/market share, I do stay quite busy to the point I have had to suspend taking orders once to avoid having a lead time of greater than 8 months. I personally don't want anyone to have to wait that long for a saw. So I rarely have the available time to spend tracking down vendors that I may be able to out source parts to. Or to develop other tools floating around in the back of my mind. Folded backs being one. I have no doubt if I were retired I would have the time to do so with more fervor to accomplish various task. ( The key word here is "retired" not unemployed ) Then of course the financial aspect of life would certainly come to be an issue in every day life. I could elaborate on other issues brought up. But that would take too long to discuss and I am a slow typist. I do, as always, enjoy reading the various thoughts of others. Thank you for posting.

[IanW]

Just one last thought about something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the discussion so far:

What a boutique maker can offer over anything factory-produced, is saws made exactly to a customers specifications. If you make saws one at a time, it's no difference what tooth size, particular rake or fleam angle, varied pitch, spine weight, or whatever, is specified. These take little or no extra time to do. Hand toothing allows varied pitch & rake or requested "non-standard" rake angles to be included with virtually no change in the time it takes. That part of the operation isn't as difficult or as time-consuming as you might think - with a bit of practice (& a decent file! #!*! :~ ) toothing & setting a 10-12" backsaw can take me 1/2 hour or less (still a lot longer than having a machine do most of the work for you, of course!).

Same thinking applies to handles - makes no difference to give a customer a particular grip style, hang angle or size to suit their fist, when you make them one at a time - what you get from the factories is a pretty boring, one-size-fits-all product, even if it is fiddleback. :U

Factories operating to tight profit margins can only do a limited amount of customising...

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Hi Derek,
I only wish to disagree on one point. The time factor. As a "part time" saw maker, time is exactly what I do not have. After a 53 to 56 hour week at the fire house I then have to come home and, of course make saws. While I am certainly no threat to other saw makers with respect to volume/market share, I do stay quite busy to the point I have had to suspend taking orders once to avoid having a lead time of greater than 8 months. I personally don't want anyone to have to wait that long for a saw. So I rarely have the available time to spend tracking down vendors that I may be able to out source parts to. Or to develop other tools floating around in the back of my mind. Folded backs being one. I have no doubt if I were retired I would have the time to do so with more fervor to accomplish various task. ( The key word here is "retired" not unemployed ) Then of course the financial aspect of life would certainly come to be an issue in every day life. I could elaborate on other issues brought up. But that would take too long to discuss and I am a slow typist. I do, as always, enjoy reading the various thoughts of others. Thank you for posting.

Hi Ron

I would argue that the experience of time for a full-time sawmakers is different to that experienced by a part-time sawmakers, such as yourself. While you describe a sense of urgency to get the saw completed and to the new owner, if you miss a day or two of sawmaking (perhaps because you are ill or just want a day off), it will not hurt your income/pocket, only your pride. The pressure to work to a schedule is different, even though the work ethic may be the same.

You make very fine working saws, from what I have read. And from what I have seen of them on the forums, they are beautifully detailed at the highest level. Your work is distinctive and easily identifiable as a "Bonz" saw. That you can do this all in such a little free time is nothing short of amazing!

I believe that the saws we now have access to far surpasses those of a hundred or so years ago. We indeed live in an age of wonderous handtools.

Regads from Perth

Derek

[Simplicity]

Derek

You are spot on in regard to the quality of tools (saws) available today .
Just the materials alone is amazing ,compared to the past A1 A2 steels 1095 saw plate extra
.Do we take it all for granted tho ??
But I won't mention modern files ,that's a whole new depressing post for another day .

Cheers Matt

[planemaker]

The introduction of hardened teeth has changed things, and some users claim that as a result, saw sharpening has become somewhat of a lost art. :C

[rob streeper]

I've found that induction hardened teeth tend to break if the saw bearing them is used on anything harder than yellow/white pine or the new abomination known as 'whitewood'.

[planemaker]

The future viability of many smaller boutique saw makers continues to remain uncertain.

There are many factors involved. Including:

The ongoing pressure from larger saw making entities who are able to continually trim their costs through higher volumes of sale and quicker production methods.

The ongoing popularity of low cost, no maintenance, hardened teeth hand saws.

The lack of saw sharpening services available.

The difficulty in purchasing high quality saw sharpening files.

The lack of motivation by many weekend woodworkers to accept the challenge of learning how to resharpen their handsaws.

[planemaker]

It should also be noted that the ongoing popularity of the woodworking hand tool market is still reliant on those predominantly born prior to 1960. As their participation reduces over the next 10 years, will the younger generation of woodworkers step up to the plate and share a similar commitment to the use of hand tools. !!!

[code4pay]

It should also be noted that the ongoing popularity of the woodworking hand tool market is still reliant on those predominantly born prior to 1960. As their participation reduces over time, will the younger generation of woodworkers also share a similar commitment to the use of hand tools. !! I have some major doubts. !!! :no:
I disagree, I often visit the woodworking subreddit on reddit that is mainly the domain of the 20- 30 year old crowd. Hand tool work is very popular amongst that group. One interesting area I do see it mentioned in regard to is woodworking in apartments. Lots of young people want to do wood work but live in apartments making hand tools abnoit their only practical choice.

[IanW]

I've found that induction hardened teeth tend to break if the saw bearing them is used on anything harder than yellow/white pine or the new abomination known as 'whitewood'.

I haven't had that problem with the cheapie 'western' style saws, Peter, but have heard it's not uncommon with some Japanese style saws. They have much deeper, more 'flimsy' teeth. Some of the cheap inexpensive saws do have Japanese style teeth (raked for pushing, not pulling) - are these the ones that you've had lose teeth, or the more 'standard' tooth style?


It should also be noted that the ongoing popularity of the woodworking hand tool market is still reliant on those predominantly born prior to 1960. As their participation reduces over the next 10 years, will the younger generation of woodworkers step up to the plate and share a similar commitment to the use of hand tools. !!!

I sure hope that's not the case, Stewie! While it's true many of us woodies sport grey hair, I've had plenty of contact with blokes less than half my age who are as keen as I was as a 30-something, and many are further ahead with using hand-tools than I was at their age. Maybe one of the reasons is because they have forums like this, where crusty old farfolks like us try to help.... :U :U

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

Stewie
They all ready are

[Luke Maddux]

I guess I can only speak for myself and the people I know, but I definitely have a strong interest in hand tools. I'm 29. I have a 34 year old cousin with the same interest.

I also have a 60 year old Uncle who wouldn't use a hand plane if he was at gunpoint!

I think there's a lot of material out there promoting and explaining the use of hand tools. Whether or not that market is on the rise or decline... I'm not educated enough on the subject to comment, but I think it's got a fighting chance!