DSEL74 3rd May 2015, 10:46 PM I was wondering if anyone has an idea what it would cost to have a little Myford ML7 bed and saddle reground? The head stock would need to be split so that can be ground with the bed to keep the centre height aligned. I don't know if turciting the saddle is an alternative to that.
Basically if I adjust the gibs so the lathe is nicely set at the headstock I can only move the saddle 5-6" down the bed before it binds. Or if I have it so I can run the full length of the bed it is sloppy as hell down near the head.
As always funds are tight so I'm trying to work out if I'm chasing my tail trying to get this old thing in a reasonably useable state or I should bin it and look for something else?
I guess Phil is probably the one who knows but I'm interested in others experience in this kind thing also. I think it will take more than a little bit of hand scraping to get it back to flat.
KBs PensNmore 3rd May 2015, 11:35 PM I think it will take more than a little bit of hand scraping to get it back to flat.
Maybe a grinder first, then scrapping, if it's that bad.:D. How about offering it as a demo piece for the next 10 scrapping sessions.
Kryn
BaronJ 4th May 2015, 05:07 AM I was wondering if anyone has an idea what it would cost to have a little Myford ML7 bed and saddle reground? The head stock would need to be split so that can be ground with the bed to keep the centre height aligned. I don't know if turciting the saddle is an alternative to that.
Basically if I adjust the gibs so the lathe is nicely set at the headstock I can only move the saddle 5-6" down the bed before it binds. Or if I have it so I can run the full length of the bed it is sloppy as hell down near the head.
As always funds are tight so I'm trying to work out if I'm chasing my tail trying to get this old thing in a reasonably usable state or I should bin it and look for something else?
I guess Phil is probably the one who knows but I'm interested in others experience in this kind thing also. I think it will take more than a little bit of hand scraping to get it back to flat.
Only my personal opinion, but I would look to getting the bed reground. The bedways and shears are dead flat and I suspect that there won't be a lot of work to get them right. Plus the Myfords are a much sought after lathe and bring very good money even in a worn condition.
However do check that things are clean under the saddle because bits do migrate under there and can cause tightening as you move away from the chuck. It always surprises me just how much stuff gets embedded in the felt wiper at the front. I take mine off every now and then, wash it in white spirits, then soak it in oil before putting it back. Just doing this changes the feel of the saddle movement.
.RC. 4th May 2015, 08:55 AM If I had to guess I would say around a thousand dollars just to grind the bed...
ventureoverland 4th May 2015, 09:33 AM As an out there idea, have a word with the Myford guy in the UK... I suspect you may be able to drop on a NOS bed for cheaper than getting yours ground locally. I find this whole replace with new being cheaper than repair concept wrong but I guess its the world we live in now-a-days.
DSEL74 4th May 2015, 11:03 AM Kryn, Is there going to be another scraping class????
BaronJ, I try taking the saddle off and doing a clean as per your method. I just got a new cross slide screw as the original one was bent.
RC $1K is not going to happen I don't have that kind coin.
ventureoverland, I think that the cost plus shipping would be prohibitive.
It is a fairly simple design with no Vee Ways
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzJ4Pw7glHM
PDW 4th May 2015, 11:29 AM RC $1K is not going to happen I don't have that kind coin.
I think that's a *very* realistic estimate of a minimum price, frankly.
If you can't afford it - or don't think your lathe is worth that much money - you're left with the alternative of hand scraping it yourself.
Assuming you have or can obtain the tools required that is, because buying them new is probably going to cost over $1000. I'm about to get some more straight edge castings done and I expect that a 650mm casting is going to be close to $200, which then needs to be machined and scraped, which means a surface plate, which costs....
PDW
DSEL74 4th May 2015, 11:40 AM I think that's a *very* realistic estimate of a minimum price, frankly.
If you can't afford it - or don't think your lathe is worth that much money - you're left with the alternative of hand scraping it yourself.
Assuming you have or can obtain the tools required that is, because buying them new is probably going to cost over $1000. I'm about to get some more straight edge castings done and I expect that a 650mm casting is going to be close to $200, which then needs to be machined and scraped, which means a surface plate, which costs....
PDW
It's not a matter what the job is worth rather what I can or can't pay. Which is why I am questioning what it will cost and if I can achieve it or should quit on it now.
It might be a "hand job", I do have a straight edge but it is fairly narrow about 15mm wide came from boeing, the parallel kind not camel back, I also have some small surface plates with the side handles that may be able to be used for blueing, and a scraper from Phil's course. I think that my ability is more in question here.
Stustoys 4th May 2015, 01:02 PM How long is a Myford ML7?
Stuart
PDW 4th May 2015, 01:06 PM It might be a "hand job", I do have a straight edge but it is fairly narrow about 15mm wide came from boeing, the parallel kind not camel back, I also have some small surface plates with the side handles that may be able to be used for blueing, and a scraper from Phil's course. I think that my ability is more in question here.
Yeah, well, that's what practice is for.....
Question I always ask myself when things like this come up is, can I make it any worse than it is now? If so, how? Then avoid doing that.
Myfords have easy to scrape flat sections. Work out a plan for mapping the wear then consider how to go about dealing with it. Keep in mind that your alternative is to live with it and any improvement is a plus - IOW don't have to aim for perfection, just sufficient improvement to make the machine more useable.
I assume you have a copy of Connelly's book and Schlesinger's as well. They're both available as PDF copies for download.
PDW
.RC. 4th May 2015, 02:06 PM It's not a matter what the job is worth rather what I can or can't pay. Which is why I am questioning what it will cost and if I can achieve it or should quit on it now.
The only way you will find out the cost is ring around...
Also consider since it is small and just soft cast iron, it could be milled flat, or planed... it is also all going to count on if the operator doing the job knows what he is doing, as I could well imagine those sort of people are becoming less and less in Australia...
I am sure given the huge popularity of Myford's there would be a large amount of knowledge out there mostly in the UK on rebuilding such a lathe for a reasonable price..
kwijibo99 4th May 2015, 02:44 PM What you describe is a common issue with Myford lathes but it is also one that you can fix yourself as long as the wear isn't too excessive.
The first thing you need to do is establish the location and extent of the wear which being a flat bed lathe is a relatively simple task.
Of course there will be wear in the saddle but as it only binds as you move away from the head stock this indicates that the major source of the problem is in the bed itself so don't worry about the saddle for now.
There are basically five bed measurements that will allow you to establish an approximate wear pattern (refer to attached drawing):
346152
1 - Rear shear thickness.
2 - Rear shear width.
3 - Front shear thickness.
4 - Front shear width.
5 - Bed width.
First step is to establish a rough benchmark of what the bed looked like when new, this can be done by taking a set of measurements a couple of inches in from the tail stock end of the bed where there should be virtually no wear.
Following this take a series of these measurements along the length of the bed about an inch apart starting from the gap under the headstock.
Record all the measurements as you go and by the time you're finished you should have an indication of where things are worn and how badly.
What you will most likely find is the shear thickness and bed width will get smaller closer to the headstock.
When you have worked out where the wear is you will need to establish which surface is actually worn down and the shape of the wear pattern, this can be done using a straight edge and feeler gauges to locate any hollows
Ideally if you have access to a surface plate and camel back type straight edge or similar you can strip the lathe down and proceed to scraping as we did with Phil and Marco, this of course would be the best possible scenario and give the best results.
If you don't have access to these though you can use a simple blade type straight edge and feeler gauge to approximately mark out the wear pattern which should still allow you to scrape things in close enough to extend your lathes capabilities. This method will not give you any sort of super lathe and before any purists get all hot under the collar I'm coming at this from the point of getting a lathe you are considering dumping back to a condition that will let you use it more completely than you can now, all without expensive grinding, tooling or even disassembling the lathe.
The only thing you have to loose is some of your time (probably a lot actually) but by the time you're done you will have learnt a hell of a lot and might even have a better lathe. I should add here that I went through this process with my little ML7 which had the same problem. I did this after doing Phil's training in order to prove to myself that I could actually use the skills learnt for a practical purpose, and it also improved the lathe.
Cheers,
Greg.
DSEL74 4th May 2015, 06:23 PM Bed is 65cm long and bed, gap & headstock are 95cm long combined.
Front way is 45mm rear 35mm. These are approx, actual sizes would be imperial also.
Yes I'll need to try and measure the wear and the pattern.
Stustoys 4th May 2015, 09:57 PM That should fit on my plate if I ever get to see it again(the plate that is)
Stuart
KBs PensNmore 4th May 2015, 10:20 PM That's the problem with surface plates, you rest something on them and then they breed rapidly, till you can't find it .:rolleyes: I have the same problem with any flat surface.:D
Kryn
BaronJ 5th May 2015, 06:08 AM The only way you will find out the cost is ring around...
Also consider since it is small and just soft cast iron,
Err, not necessarily ! My Myford, a long bed model, has a flame hardened bed. Ok it can still get marks and dings in it, but soft it is not !
When I go to get my mill table back from the engineering shop that is squaring it up for me, I'll ask them how much it would cost to regrind a Myford lathe bed.
jhovel 5th May 2015, 03:23 PM DSEL you need to clear some message space so I can send you a PM
AndrewOC 5th May 2015, 06:42 PM There is this company, in Mona Vale, (northern Sydney); http://www.mtasupport.com.au/index.html
I remember them as Hardwick & Tatam.
regs,
AndrewOC
BaronJ 5th May 2015, 11:47 PM Hi Guys, Dsel74,
I've called at my local engineering works and collected my mill table along with some advice about gibs and refitting it. They said that I really should bring in the cross slide and base along with the table so that they can make sure that its square and fits properly. I did ask the manager how much they would charge to regrind a Myford lathe bed. Basically I was told that the setting up might take longer that it would to regrind, particularly since it was just a flat piece. Anyhow grinding is charged at £35 per hour plus VAT (20%) and probably three hours. So around £130 uk pounds. Curiously one old timer thought it was my machine I was talking about, "In my day they scraped them! did the job right" was his remark.
Anyway I hope that this gives you a better Idea of the cost should you decide to go down that route.
.RC. 6th May 2015, 06:34 AM I cannot talk for melbourne area, but engineering shops here are on about double that rate BaronJ
BaronJ 6th May 2015, 06:54 AM I cannot talk for melbourne area, but engineering shops here are on about double that rate BaronJ
Ouch ! I can see why you guys buy a lot of stuff from overseas.
It seems odd to me that you guys seem to get bargains in used machinery, whilst over here it is less common and far far higher in price.
I can remember some auctions that I attended, maybe 20, 25 odd years ago, and the scrap merchants would get good shapers, vertical borers and turret lathes for peanuts. I've watched them come in with sledge hammers and simply smash the stuff up for scrap metal. Nowadays it seems to be Chinese junk because the good old iron just isn't around anymore.
DSEL74 6th May 2015, 08:19 PM That should fit on my plate if I ever get to see it again(the plate that is)
Stuart
You need help tidying up????
jhovel
DSEL you need to clear some message space so I can send you a PM
I haven't bee able to get the forum to load the last few days, made some space now.
I was in the local engineering shop today and he reckons they quote out at $100/Hr, he also said the business was almost dead in the water…
BaronJ 6th May 2015, 08:36 PM You need help tidying up????
I was in the local engineering shop today and he reckons they quote out at $100/Hr, he also said the business was almost dead in the water…
At today's exchange rate that's just over £50 per hour.
1.00 AUD
=
0.525219 GBP
Do you have VAT/GST to pay on top as well ?
snapatap 6th May 2015, 09:06 PM $100+10% gst is about the norm for general machining.
KBs PensNmore 6th May 2015, 09:55 PM That's about the going rate for most things now days, mechanics, electricians, etc. Thanks to all the Govt. red tape and regulations
C-47 6th May 2015, 10:40 PM About 6-7 years ago a Myford bed and topslide regrind at Ranch Auto in Perth was around $600, big portion of cost being the setup time due to it not being their usual run of the mill item. There was a video around of it being done in the UK, maybe even from Myford themselves, but cant find it now. IIRC the shims are laminated and can be peeled off to adjust for reduced material thickness. All the best with it. Alan.
Stustoys 7th May 2015, 12:14 AM You need help tidying up????
No I need space, I keep buying "stuff" lol
I've stopped working on "things" and am now just cleaning up.
Hope to be able to reach my plate in about a month.
Hows the measuring going?
DSEL74 7th May 2015, 10:08 AM No I need space, I keep buying "stuff" lol
I've stopped working on "things" and am now just cleaning up.
Hope to be able to reach my plate in about a month.
Hows the measuring going?
Trying to find a 50mm Micrometer, I'm fairly sure I picked one up at a swapmeet about 18mths ago but I may be looking for a figment of my imagination:roll:
Stustoys 7th May 2015, 12:11 PM 49 or 51 one wonders..... I assume 49mm. I'm sure I'll have something around here to get you started.
I'm not so sure a mic is needed(though its nice to check your findings). I'll have a think and look around my shed. I assume you have a DTI?
Do you have an inside mic or telescopic gauges that can measure the slot in the bed for parallel? Now I assume it will be parallel as thats what locates the tailstock right? But if in the beginning you are going to make that your datum, it would be nice to know it was pretty close.
Stuart
DSEL74 7th May 2015, 06:17 PM 26-50mm Mic. No I don't have either inside Mic or gauges. I do have a DTI but not sure how you are thinking to use it?
cba_melbourne 7th May 2015, 07:57 PM ................................
It seems odd to me that you guys seem to get bargains in used machinery, whilst over here it is less common and far far higher in price.
...............
You must be joking. You got to compare apples with apples. In Australia metalworking enthusiasts pay world leading premium prices for worn out machine tools. There is far more metalworking industry in the UK and other countries in Europe and the US - and hence the used machinery market is much larger, prices are lower and the condition of used machinery is generally cosiderably better. Prices for a used machine tool in a given comparable condition is probably half what it is here. And the really clapped out stuff goes much earlier to scrap metal, rather than being sold and restored over and over again.
You have it much better when it comes to find that bargain lathe or mill. We have it better when it comes to find a roof for that lathe, houses in Australia are generally larger and the majority lives in there own house. I remember well the size and noise constraints of owning a lathe if you live in a high rise apartment.
Stustoys 7th May 2015, 08:17 PM 26-50mm Mic. No I don't have either inside Mic or gauges. I do have a DTI but not sure how you are thinking to use it?
I was thinking along the lines of these pictures. Thinking more about it, while the DTI might be nice for a quick check along the way, I think it would be nice to start with some real(or close to real) numbers.
How wide is the slot between the flat ways?
My reasoning for measuring the slot instead of bed width is I assume the slot will have little wear at each end(that and I dont have a mic big enough to measure the bed width anyway.
Stuart
DSEL74 7th May 2015, 09:53 PM Sorry Stu, I'm still not sure how you are taking comparative readings. If your reference surface is the top of the way how do you move it along in reference to the perpendicular face??
Stustoys 7th May 2015, 10:11 PM It just sits on the top, it references off the face using the pins that stick out of the base. they are up in the first picture and down in the second.
Stuart
DSEL74 7th May 2015, 10:36 PM It just sits on the top, it references off the face using the pins that stick out of the base. they are up in the first picture and down in the second.
Stuart
Ahh ok I don't know if mine has pins. Something else to look at. Always learning something new.
Stustoys 16th May 2015, 01:16 PM How wide is the slot between the flat ways?
*cough* ;)
.RC. 16th May 2015, 02:08 PM Nasty cough you have there Stuart.... I hope you get better soon :)
WCD 16th May 2015, 09:58 PM There is this company, in Mona Vale, (northern Sydney); http://www.mtasupport.com.au/index.html
I remember them as Hardwick & Tatam.
regs,
AndrewOC
MTA (Machine Tool Automation, the updated name for Hardwick and Tatam) is one of the long established Sydney machine tool rebuilding firms that is still going. There is (was?) also Grout and Darlington but since the auction of slideway grinders etc at Smithfield last week (different company name but I think related to Grout & Darlington) I do not know if that business is continuing.
Back on topic, it happens that I just got a quote from John Tatam for regrinding the bed of my Chipmaster, which with a bed length of 1100mm is quite a bit bigger than a Myford. I am delivering the stripped down bed to him. Quote is less than $500, which I think is excellent value. Besides which you get a trip to the beach.
Cheers,
Bill
DSEL74 18th May 2015, 08:12 PM http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/18/1cde77ece8fd0c3ff31c039fc3f1434b.jpg
Stustoys 18th May 2015, 11:01 PM Well that's a pity, my inside mics wont fit.
I'll give you a pm/call in the next couple of days and we'll get some measuring done.
Stuart
DSEL74 18th May 2015, 11:22 PM What about if we did the set up as you showed in your pics but had the Mic touching the opposite way edge? I'll be smithing Wed but otherwise free.
Stustoys 19th May 2015, 03:27 PM yeah we'll likely do that as well.
Its hit the fan around here. I'll try for Thursday but can't promise anything.
Stuart
DSEL74 22nd May 2015, 03:40 PM http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/106201044ef7673ec23a90de007e3dd7.jpg
Stustoys 26th May 2015, 12:01 PM Ok so the idea is, to scrap the front and back of the bed to make the lathe usable, staying on the waste side of the line so if Dale should give up or decide at a later date to get it ground.....nothing other than time and blue is wasted.
So with that in mind the plan is to assume the right hand end of the bed is unworn and as it left the factory and that the wear on the slot is even front and back. That means there is 0.02mm wear at the head stock end, split that to the front and back. Gives you 44.390mm and 34.96mm. Scrape a small area on the right hand end to that depth. Use a straight edge or plate to join the two ends with a straight line.
Should be good to go (Yes, not perfect but at least it should work better than it does ATM, only removing metal that would have been removed by grinding anyway)
The thickness/flatness of the bed and the width of the tailstock slot wont be touched ATM(I didn't clock for minimum thickness, maybe I should have).
Nuts?
Have I missed some thing?
Stuart
DSEL74 14th June 2015, 10:31 PM I pulled the lathe down and with a bit of help from Stustoys & his bunnax? followed by my hand scraping we managed to remove both the taper and concavity from the front way. After assembly it was much improved but still a little tight right up towards the tailstock. A slight backing off of one of the saddle clamp screws and she seems quite serviceable for now.
So I will fully reassemble her and put it back into service as see how she fairs on a few non critical turning jobs and reassess from their if further scraping is required or it needs a proper regrind. I've made notes of the recommendations on that for future use. Thanks everyone for your input getting me this far.
Stustoys 15th June 2015, 12:22 PM Well I must say I'm surprised, I know I said "drop the saddle back on and see whats its like" but the truth is I haven't even unpacked the car. Still, once you've tried it out on a few jobs, if you don't like it we can always revisit, doesn't take long to get to pieces, getting it back together is your problem ;)
Stuart
DSEL74 15th June 2015, 01:06 PM In regard to being able to wind the saddle it looks usable. In terms of accuracy etc won't know until all set up again. pulling down isn't and issue nor is reassembling the parts it is the realignment during/after assembly that takes the time.
Offer still stands to lend a hand setting up/cleaning up your shed
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