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View Full Version : Robert Sorby- Are They The Most Innovative?



Kidbee
28th May 2015, 09:58 PM
Is it fair to say that Robert Sorby are the most innovative makers of woodturning tools in the world?

From my observations, they must have a great Research and Development team.

artful bodger
28th May 2015, 10:16 PM
Blimey! that is a bold statement.
In what respect?

Jim Carroll
28th May 2015, 10:50 PM
They are not bad copiers of others ideas.

China
29th May 2015, 02:29 AM
They also make a lot of useless cr&^p

Paul39
29th May 2015, 02:42 AM
They are not bad copiers of others ideas.

I would agree that most manufacturers made runs of tools developed by turners. Some turners found they could make a better living making tools than by turning.

I know early turners made their own hook type tools to use with foot powered pole lathes. I did a search on early wood turning tools and found this:

http://www.glaserhitec.com/the-toolmaker/

I bought a used copy of Peter Child's 1970s book and find it informative. It is interesting how lots of fine work was done pre chucks, pre variable speed, and with carbon steel tools.

This shows a lot about early lathes but little on tools: http://www.turningtools.co.uk/history2/history-turning2.html

Most of the early, early tools I have seen in photos were scrapers or a variation.

DaveTTC
29th May 2015, 02:32 PM
I would agree that most manufacturers made runs of tools developed by turners. Some turners found they could make a better living making tools than by turning.

I know early turners made their own hook type tools to use with foot powered pole lathes. I did a search on early wood turning tools and found this:

http://www.glaserhitec.com/the-toolmaker/

I bought a used copy of Peter Child's 1970s book and find it informative. It is interesting how lots of fine work was done pre chucks, pre variable speed, and with carbon steel tools.

This shows a lot about early lathes but little on tools: http://www.turningtools.co.uk/history2/history-turning2.html

Most of the early, early tools I have seen in photos were scrapers or a variation.
Thanks for the links. I'll check these out in greater detail later

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

elderly
29th May 2015, 04:16 PM
They are probably the most innovative when it comes to getting money out of your wallet.

Colin62
29th May 2015, 06:54 PM
I own quite a few Sorby tools (most of my higher end chisels are Sorby) and I would consider myself to be loyal to the brand, but "innovation" isn't what comes to mind when I hear the name.

Kidbee
29th May 2015, 07:19 PM
So far the posts have had a lot of negativity towards Sorby tools. I am sure there are a lot of turners on this forum who have been satisfied Sorby users.

If you search around a bit they seem to have a very large range of products.

If they are not the most innovative, who is? Who has the largest range of tools if it is not Sorby; that I would like to know?

Are Hamlet better than Sorby?

L.S.Barker1970
29th May 2015, 08:51 PM
I think these are the best ....

http://www.thompsonlathetools.com/

Melbourne Matty.

Jim Carroll
29th May 2015, 09:08 PM
You will find a lot of people have the Robert Sorby range of tools as they market very well.

There is not a woodworking magazine anywhere that does not have an ad for one or more of the sorby range of tools.

They are also very supportive of their dealer network.

An example of this is the turnmaster tools, a copy of the easy wood tools with their own set up in tool holding to make them different. They could see that there was a market for a tool that needs no real turning ability and got more people into woodturning.

They also have the tools at a competitive price as volume is usually high worldwide.

They do have some gimiky tools that do get asked for but in most cases I would advise of a normal tool that can do the job just as easy. Handy being a woodturner and knowing how the tools work properly.

BamBam53
29th May 2015, 09:08 PM
The first turning tools I bought were Sorby and I am still using them today. They are just 'standard' high speed steel spindle gouges but do the job.

As for the early turners, I saw Don Webber demonstrating on his pole lathe at a seminar many years back. In one of his sessions he used his blacksmith skills to make a gouge from a car leaf spring and then used it to turn a handle for the gouge. I guess the early turners just worked with the local blacksmith for inovative tools.

Sawdust Maker
29th May 2015, 09:09 PM
Thompson are good - nice steel

I especially like P&N as well

IMHO the sorby scrapers are a tad thin, especially compared to the above

Paul39
30th May 2015, 02:56 AM
So far the posts have had a lot of negativity towards Sorby tools. I am sure there are a lot of turners on this forum who have been satisfied Sorby users.

If you search around a bit they seem to have a very large range of products.

If they are not the most innovative, who is? Who has the largest range of tools if it is not Sorby; that I would like to know?

Are Hamlet better than Sorby?

Disclosure: I don't own any Sorby tools. At the right price I would buy some.

I make bowls, to make a bowl I need a bowl gouge and half round scraper, and something to make the spigot to grab in the chuck. That can be a skew used as a scraper or a purpose ground flat piece of steel.

There are U shaped and V shaped bowl gouges. Manufacturers make one or the other, some both.

I contend that high speed steel tools by company A, B, or C in roughly the same price range are going to be very close in quality.

When I began turning I had a sharpened screw driver and a bench chisel. One Christmas I had some gifted crazy money and went to buy a 16mm bowl gouge. The store had Sorby and Crown, almost identical shape, size, handle & finish. Crown was $10 less. I bought Crown.

I have since bought used Thompson, no name Sheffield steel unhandled, and Chinese Penn State Industries bowl gouges. All are sharpened with a jig and I can tell no difference in cutting ability or time between sharpenings.

I am a tool junkie, so over time I have bought at very reduced prices Henry Taylor, Thompson, Sears Craftsman and some Chinese sets of 8 for $20. The Chinese are smaller and have too small handles, but cut almost as well as the Famous Brand tools.

All decent high speed steel cuts about the same. Some if not most need some tuning, round off corners on sides of scrapers and gouges, hone the inside flute of gouges.

I was using the toe of one of my skews a lot and over time and sharpening the cutting edge became curved. I like it for some things so I keep it sharpened that way. Innovation by accident? I know someone sells a curved edge skew.

Packard Woodworking has a catalog which has over 20 pages of turning tools, many of them imply that if you would buy this or that tool you would instantly become an expert turner. BAH!

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=tools

Mobyturns
30th May 2015, 08:08 AM
Disclosure: I don't own any Sorby tools. At the right price I would buy some.

I was using the toe of one of my skews a lot and over time and sharpening the cutting edge became curved. I like it for some things so I keep it sharpened that way. Innovation by accident? I know someone sells a curved edge skew.



Paul I had a good chuckle over this point. :D

Bit like the story of the daughter faithfully following Mum's and Grandma's recipie even cutting off the knuckle of the leg of lamb to "roast it better." Then a great aunt says "don't be silly, that was because her baking pan & oven were so small."

Mobyturns
30th May 2015, 08:16 AM
The best at innovation? Tool manufacturers? not likely.

I think it is actually turners in their sheds that are the best at innovation. They have a problem & need a solution and go about doing the R&D and product development over many years and evolutions of prototypes. Some one else sees it & wants one. Before long there are a few of the more successful prototype models out there. Then it becomes more mainstream all of a sudden through the efforts of an enterprising tool manufacturer with the originator & prototype developer seeing very little for their efforts.

Longworth chucks are a prime example, hollowing tools, calipers, ..... perhaps even curved skews :D

powderpost
30th May 2015, 10:02 PM
Many people are not prepared to to do the hard yard and learn some efficient techniques. The self discipline, needed to do bead and cove exercises with the conventional gouges and skew, is often too tedious and a solution with the now famous xyz tool the much prefered course of action. With the "baby boomers" with perceived surplus resources, are a good target for that new gizmo tool, when a little thought produces a better solution. There were plenty of wood turners, in the days when they were in demand, survived without all the "latest" new ideas. Many of the "new" concept tools are variations on an old idea.

Most "new" tools are bought because of peer pressure or bragging rights, not because they are more efficient. Development in the composition of new steels for tools is probably the only real new development. Chucks in their various forms have been around for hundreds of years, but each manufacturer will introduce an innovation only to steal a march on their competitor, and convince the turner that this one is better than the next.

Jim

China
30th May 2015, 11:33 PM
I have many Sorby woodturning chisels I have been buying them long before HSS tools were available Sorby tools are of a very high quality
and as far as I am aware always have been, but they also produce a lot of useless cr%$p

Evanism
31st May 2015, 12:02 AM
I LOVE doodads and widgets! Love them!

But, the number being used on a daily basis is severely reduced....from wanting everything in the Sorby Catalogue to now only using about 5 basic tools. There are about 10 chisels on the rack, but the only ones reached for are always the basic ones.

I've even found the gadgets for sharpening don't get used... The angle holders and adjuster douverlackies... It's all done by hand, a light touch and close eye.... On CBN wheels of course.

True Innovation is rare. Most products are just evolutionary. It's the way of things. :)

Kidbee
31st May 2015, 12:02 PM
So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of woodturning tools and accessories in the world?

Woodturnerjosh
31st May 2015, 03:01 PM
So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of woodturning tools and accessories in the world?


You could suggest it but without copies of sales figures from all the companies in question it's hard to prove.

In my collection of a couple of dozen turning chisels and a selection of other various coring and holing tools, there is only one Sorby and I'm in no hurry to add another. So it all comes down to personal preference.

Pat
31st May 2015, 03:45 PM
I found sorby was too soft for certain timbers I am want to play with. So I got rid of them.

Sawdust Maker
31st May 2015, 09:40 PM
So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of woodturning tools and accessories in the world?

Does it matter?

Mobyturns
1st June 2015, 08:15 AM
So is it wrong to suggest that Sorby, with their clever marketing and big range of tools, maybe the biggest seller of wood turning tools and accessories in the world?

I think it would be wrong. Just think of how many sets of basic wood turning tools of Chinese origin that are sold through hardware & "box" stores compared to every quality tool sold. Same applies to generic chucks, centers, and any other tool or accessory they can knockoff.

Evanism
1st June 2015, 11:37 AM
I think it would be wrong. Just think of how many sets of basic wood turning tools of Chinese origin that are sold through hardware & "box" stores compared to every quality tool sold. Same applies to generic chucks, centers, and any other tool or accessory they can knockoff.

:) China and Innovation. Well, there's a topic closed off in a single sentence.

I was thinking about this thread overnight.

It's very hard to consider how true innovation can be applied to a single industry. Given that almost every innovation and invention are absolutely inevitable progressions from earlier ideas and thoughts (flight, electricity, radio, cars, etc) it seems reasonable to look at how industrial applications are brought in from other industries.

When one thinks about Steel-->high carbon-->HSS-->Carbide chisels, then other areas like metal turning 3 jaw chucks --> jamb chucks-->4 jaws-->Sorby click-on jaws, then new sharpening models of slip stones-->grinders-->slow speed grinders-->CBN wheels (perhaps belt grinders in there somewhere) ..... You do see innovations occurring (at least cross contaminations!)

Where a company might be seen as innovative is to adapt from other industries, tool up, incur costs and give it a go.

Taking risks on ideas that might not pan out IS innovation. It might not be popular with the consumer (cost, marginal improvement, effort to learn, apathy) but that doesn't mean they aren't innovative.

I think, given these things, it is reasonable to assume that Sorby is innovative.

Additionally I believe it qualifies as innovative as it has an entire catalogue of things to sell. It is offering a *range* of tools (like the Festool System) not just a box of 6 chisels (only the most popular ones!) made to the lowest price and bulk sold via a discount chain.... (that's commoditisation)

Whether one "likes their steel" or has complaints about the angle of this-or-that isnt germane... For innovation is evolutionary, it's only a matter of time and consumer feedback and this will be sorted out (if it's indeed a problem).

One thing I won't argue about, at all, is the Longworth Chuck! Man, that dude needs an AO or something!

Kidbee
1st June 2015, 05:12 PM
:) China and Innovation. Well, there's a topic closed off in a single sentence.

I was thinking about this thread overnight.

It's very hard to consider how true innovation can be applied to a single industry. Given that almost every innovation and invention are absolutely inevitable progressions from earlier ideas and thoughts (flight, electricity, radio, cars, etc) it seems reasonable to look at how industrial applications are brought in from other industries.

When one thinks about Steel-->high carbon-->HSS-->Carbide chisels, then other areas like metal turning 3 jaw chucks --> jamb chucks-->4 jaws-->Sorby click-on jaws, then new sharpening models of slip stones-->grinders-->slow speed grinders-->CBN wheels (perhaps belt grinders in there somewhere) ..... You do see innovations occurring (at least cross contaminations!)

Where a company might be seen as innovative is to adapt from other industries, tool up, incur costs and give it a go.

Taking risks on ideas that might not pan out IS innovation. It might not be popular with the consumer (cost, marginal improvement, effort to learn, apathy) but that doesn't mean they aren't innovative.

I think, given these things, it is reasonable to assume that Sorby is innovative.

Additionally I believe it qualifies as innovative as it has an entire catalogue of things to sell. It is offering a *range* of tools (like the Festool System) not just a box of 6 chisels (only the most popular ones!) made to the lowest price and bulk sold via a discount chain.... (that's commoditisation)

Whether one "likes their steel" or has complaints about the angle of this-or-that isnt germane... For innovation is evolutionary, it's only a matter of time and consumer feedback and this will be sorted out (if it's indeed a problem).

One thing I won't argue about, at all, is the Longworth Chuck! Man, that dude needs an AO or something!

Thank you Evanism. I think you have summed up the matter very well with that post.

NeilS
1st June 2015, 05:37 PM
On innovations, for this bowl turner the most valuable have been:



Bowl gouges with suitable flute profiles - yes there was a time before we had them. http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm
Development of the various swept back grinds - by whatever name you call them. Check out Peter/Roy Child's book, The Crafsman Woodturner, to be reminded how gouges were ground prior to that.
The three-jaw chuck with jaws specifically for woodturners - developed by Teknatool in NZ.
High Speed Steel tools (Henry Taylor in UK and Jerry Glaser in US) and later hybrid powdered metals with high vanadium (Jerry Glaser in US) and high cobalt (Hamlet and Crown in UK).
Swivel head lathes for outboard bowl turning - outboard turning on the rear of the headstock was clunky.
Variable speed control on lathes
Diamond and CBN grinding wheels - more of an adoption by woodturners than an innovation by them and their mass production has now brought their price down to where they are an option for many woodturners.
Deep hollowing tools - David Ellsworth in US did a lot of the pioneering work and various manufacturers have elaborated from there (including Rolly Munro and Woodcut in NZ).


Most of us can adapt an existing tool to do those specialised tasks we have from time to time, but few of us had what was required to bring about the above major innovations that have made such a difference for woodturners, and in particular for us bowl/faceplate turners.

Sorby doesn't seem to figure all that prominently in the above list...:no:

Drillit
4th June 2015, 10:15 AM
Is it fair to say that Robert Sorby are the most innovative makers of woodturning tools in the world?

From my observations, they must have a great Research and Development team.

I think the simple answer is No, IMHO. Couple of things - they have not really embraced carbide cutters. Their Turnmaster series
have too much overhang. They are essentially locked into HSS, including their cutters on their hollowing system.
Their Ultima system is based on the largely defunct Exocet sytem. Their Pro edge sharpening system has a number of shortcomings which have been drawn to
their attention. They market them as "theirs" - so when backed into a corner the response was that they cant make
changes, not matter how desirable because they are made by Tormek. I won't go on, because I am sure many would
support them and see their products as top shelf. I dont. Drillit.:no:

Bluegum
8th June 2015, 05:44 PM
So far the posts have had a lot of negativity towards Sorby tools. I am sure there are a lot of turners on this forum who have been satisfied Sorby users.

If you search around a bit they seem to have a very large range of products.

If they are not the most innovative, who is? Who has the largest range of tools if it is not Sorby; that I would like to know?

Are Hamlet better than Sorby?


I bought my Sorby set 3 years ago. I was just getting into turning and had spent a lot of time researching tools and prices. I nearly bought a set of hamlet from carbatec. They had their 5 tool set for $207 at the Brisbane wood show. I got my Sorby set from Jim Carroll on the fact they had the Sorby 6 tool starter set for $210. The fact that I got one tool for $3 more after comparing prices was a big factor in my choice. Upon saying that I also figured that English tool steel has a good reputation I couldn't go wrong. Since buying this set I have bought 3 more Sorby tools because I do like them. I only wished that P&N would have done a similar set for turners starting out.