Wheelie Bin Dust Separator

[Jim Grant]

I had a spare wheelie bin and decided to try it as a dust separator. I cut two x 100 mm holes in the lid and fixed two pieces of plastic conduit as an inlet and outlet. the lid was sealed using a rubber door seal and I had intended to fix a latch to hold the lid down. However, the first test proved that the lid will seal itself under the suction.
The bin does not show any tendency to deform when in use and I reckon that it takes up less room and will be easier to empty than a 44 gal steel drum.

[Ashore]

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif Great idea mate and as you can get spare lids , making a set of releasable pivot pins you could just wheel it out for the pick up once a month or so if you can't get rid of it any other way lik in the garded etc

Like the idea will use as I have an extra wheely as well Thanks

Worth a Greeniehttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif






The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[Gumby]

I considered that option when i bought my 80L bin at Bunnies (see Wongo's 2 stage dust collection thread). The only thing that stopped me was the price of the wheely bin (around $80 I think) and the fact that i thought it would be more difficult to emplty than a simple plastic bin.

Anyway, good move. I think a couple of Occy straps over the lid would help seal it better.

[speedy]

I am just about to do the same thing, only I will be using 12mm ply for the top, held on by clips. If the top is removable it will be easier to empty in the garden :cool::cool:

[ozwinner]

Wheely bins for sale!!!!!

Only $50 each, only used by a little old lady.

Al :cool:

[routermaniac]

funnily enough the wheelie bins around my area have been disappearing for years... so much so that the council arranged an amnesty where no questions would be asked if the bins were returned within a specified date.... Now I know whats been happening to them :D

[la Huerta]

Jim ,do you find that using a bin that is really deep like a wheely bin improves seperation ? and did you face the inlet pipe inwards to create a cyclone effect? and last but not least, how much large dust still ends up in the bag, is it a lot still or mainly just dirty air ?...

[Jim Grant]

The wheelie bin works fine for chips and heavier shavings off the jointer but the dust from the saw mostly lands up in the dust bag. I didn't try to create a cyclone effect as I only wished to separate the bits I didn't want going through the impellers. The difficult part was getting the conduit inserts to adhere to the plastic bin lid. I guess that the plastic is designed for things not to stick to it. In the end I used Araldite as the glue and a sealing adhesive to get rid of any air leaks.
It's not pretty but it seems to work OK.

[Simomatra]

Thanks Jim

Was working on installing the 44 gallon seperator this morning when the neighbour came in.

His place of work apparently used to make them and have a few left over. He is dropping me off a couple tomorrow. Just need to supply the axle s and wheels as they were not made at the factory.

By the look of your it is a much better idea.

[Dr Dee]

I did the same thing with a big wheelie bin primarily to stop damage to my 2hp DC. I have it plumbed with 150mm PVC and a thick piece of MDF as a top. I angled the inlet to encourage swirling but not expecting high separation as for a true cyclone. I find that until it reaches about half full virtually nothing gets into the DC bag. I am happy with this until I have the time to build a proper cylcone.

The MDF lid is located by a bolt at each corner but I have found I do not need to actually put a nut on as the suction holds it on and seals really well. It is impossible to move when the DC is on.

I organised it so the top can be lifted up enough to wheel the bin out for emptying. Not sophisticated but works well enough whilst I am still time challenged !!

cheers

[vaughan green]

Hi folks- Just got myself a carbatec thicknesser with a three hp single phase motor. I now want to make a dust extractor-I have the wheelie bin but that's all-any ideas of where to pick up a suitable motor and fan? What hp will be sufficient and will the electricity supply to my workshop be sufficient for two motors running at once?

[rod1949]

Jim,

Is the extractor unit appears to have a cloth/felt bottom bag... yes / no? Is it a Carbatec? If so what model? Mine has a plastic bottom bag which is a bit of a hastle to refit.

[Sparhawk]

In some councils (Casey), you can get a extra recycle bin (a large blue one) for no extra cost (you just have to phone up and ask).

[GraemeCook]

So simple; so good.

A simple refinement that would not affect its efficiency but which would further reduce the risk of larger chips going through to the fan, especially as th bin fills up, would be to make the outlet pipe from the bin twice the diameter than the inlet pipe. This would slow the airspeed there lower than that needed to pick up larger chips. The design theory and practice including airflow volumes and speeds is well explained at:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

Thanks

Graeme

[Bob38S]

Jim,

Is the extractor unit appears to have a cloth/felt bottom bag... yes / no? Is it a Carbatec? If so what model? Mine has a plastic bottom bag which is a bit of a hastle to refit.

G'day Rod,

A lot of blokes do it this way [me included] use 4 magnets [I got mine out of old speakers] to hold the plastic bag in place - then it is easy to do up the clamp as you have 2 free hands.

Regards,
Bob

[Alastair]

G'day Rod,

A lot of blokes do it this way [me included] use 4 magnets [I got mine out of old speakers] to hold the plastic bag in place - then it is easy to do up the clamp as you have 2 free hands.

Regards,
Bob


Bob you beauty!!!

My stack of magnets has just found a new application, and I am freed from a lifetime of frustration!!!!!

regards

[Jim Grant]

Sorry for the delay in replying but I've been away on business. The wheelie bin has been in use now for a couple of years wihout it giving any trouble. The dust collector is a standard Carba Tec unit and the bags are a sort of cotton material.
I've played with the inlet and by adding a 90 degree bend on the inside of the lid it sorts of acts like a cyclone with the chippings lining the inside edges of the bin.
I've also had to add a rubber strap over the lid to seal it as the dust lifted the rubber seal away from the lid. Other than that it works just fineand provides my grand children with a ready source of bedding for the rabbits and guinea pigs.

[Johncs]

Sorry for the delay in replying but I've been away on business. The wheelie bin has been in use now for a couple of years wihout it giving any trouble. The dust collector is a standard Carba Tec unit and the bags are a sort of cotton material.
I've played with the inlet and by adding a 90 degree bend on the inside of the lid it sorts of acts like a cyclone with the chippings lining the inside edges of the bin.
I've also had to add a rubber strap over the lid to seal it as the dust lifted the rubber seal away from the lid. Other than that it works just fineand provides my grand children with a ready source of bedding for the rabbits and guinea pigs.

Has anyone tried feeding the dirty air through water?

I envisage a two-stage process:
First, the wheely bin as described already
Second, a second bin, maybe not so large, where the inlet is under water. The outlet may well be clean air (but I'd still filter it before letting it through a pump).

The pump won't pull the air through much water, but 2-3 cm might be enough.

Passing the air through water will reduce suction at the pickup.

The bin will need regular (each day it's used, at least) emptying. The sludge may do well for watering the garden (but your veges might need more nitrogen).

Depending on the amount of use, evaporation might be a problem.

[silentC]

I read somewhere about someone who directs the air output from his dust collector into his garden and has put one of those mister sprays in front of the pipe so that the air passes through the spray. Apparently this works. Can't remember where I saw it, might have been on here somewhere.

[rod1949]

G'day Rod,

A lot of blokes do it this way [me included] use 4 magnets [I got mine out of old speakers] to hold the plastic bag in place - then it is easy to do up the clamp as you have 2 free hands.

Regards,
Bob

One is always learning... thanks Bob:2tsup:

[SilentButDeadly]

I went to school on Jim's system when we set up our 15" thicknesser. We had the wheelie bin plus I'd also picked up a little GMC dusty. The dusty worked OK but the bag would fill in no time. So we used the wheelie as a seperator. Except that I used a section of red tongue particle board as the lid (rather than the existing lid) and made up a seal from some EV foam that was lying around (one could also use the metal framed car door seal off the roll from Clark Rubber). 90mm PVC pipe sorts the inlet and outlet - EV foam is used as a slip on gasket between the PVC and the flexible hose - no hose clips required. There's enough room for the dusty to sit on the lid too and when the whole lot is occyed down it can be easily moved in its complete form. Emptying is easy enough - the whole shebang disassembles in seconds and the un-adulterated wheelie can be taken out to the sawdust pile and inverted....

So thanks Jim.

The GMC dusty is still available but it's now in a plastic chassis rather than a metal one but it should still be adequate for this job.

I am thinking of building a cyclone to sit on top rather the dusty itself (I have easy access to plastic 220L drums) but honestly the fabric bag that came with the GMC dusty is fine and it all usually sits outside when it's in use so there's no real practical benefit to the cyclone.......just intellectual really....and I've got to much other stuff to do before this mod becomes a priority.

[Kallan]

Has anyone tried feeding the dirty air through water?

I envisage a two-stage process:
First, the wheely bin as described already
Second, a second bin, maybe not so large, where the inlet is under water. The outlet may well be clean air (but I'd still filter it before letting it through a pump).

The pump won't pull the air through much water, but 2-3 cm might be enough.

Passing the air through water will reduce suction at the pickup.

The bin will need regular (each day it's used, at least) emptying. The sludge may do well for watering the garden (but your veges might need more nitrogen).

Depending on the amount of use, evaporation might be a problem.

I don't know much about dust extraction/filtration, but I do know that in home brewed ginger beer, when the beer is brewing in the bottles some people install one way air valves on top that lets the pressure inside the bottle escape, but not letting air from outside get in and making it stale.

I'm just worried that a pump wouldn't pull air through water at all, without pulling the water up itself, just like a drinking straw. I think the only way to get the air through the water would be to create a positive pressure before the inlet valve. Although I don't really know anything about this, i'm just guessing as I go along, hehe.

Actually, while writing this, I realised how much this process is just like how a bong works (Not that I've ever touched one, I wasn't born in the 70's :P). I looked it up on wikipedia and found a process called Gas Washing. There's not that much information on it, but I'm guessing that it works by forcing air into the water, and letting it rise upwards and outwards through an outlet.

Maybe this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_scrubber , might prove useful. Honestly I haven't even read it, It's time for bed I think. But knock yourself out.

Catya.

[Woodwould]

If the vacuum tube extends into the water, it will try to suck the water up and may even succeed. If however, the vacuum tube operates in a chamber above the water, then it will draw air through the water and through the vacuum (although water probably isn't the best filtration medium).

Some automotive and commercial truck air filters used this principle although they drew the air through an oil bath and not water. Many people would be familiar with the early VW Beetle oil bath air filter.

[Johncs]

If the vacuum tube extends into the water, it will try to suck the water up and may even succeed. If however, the vacuum tube operates in a chamber above the water, then it will draw air through the water and through the vacuum (although water probably isn't the best filtration medium).

Some automotive and commercial truck air filters used this principle although they drew the air through an oil bath and not water. Many people would be familiar with the early VW Beetle oil bath air filter.


In this case, you'd be filtering air after it's been through the pickup phase. If the water filter is the last step before releasing it to the atmosphere at large then there's no risk of harm by ingesting water.

It occurs to me an evaporative aircon should make a fine air washer. The cooled, humid exhalations should be pretty clean of dust.

I think Dad's 1950s Fordson Major diesel had an oil-bath air cleaner, but I was pretty young to me taking much in. I think the oil bath's purpose was to keep the filter wet, I can't imagine air going through a shallow bath would get cleaned very much, most of the air would escape contact with the oil.

[Woodwould]

I think Dad's 1950s Fordson Major diesel had an oil-bath air cleaner, but I was pretty young to me taking much in. I think the oil bath's purpose was to keep the filter wet, I can't imagine air going through a shallow bath would get cleaned very much, most of the air would escape contact with the oil.

I can't speak for your Dad's Fordson Major, but several of my '67 and earlier VWs' filters contained nothing but oil - no paper element. The amount of dirt the oil trapped was phenomenal.

[GraemeCook]

So simple; so good.

A simple refinement that would not affect its efficiency but ......



Avondale (https://www.woodworkforums.com/members/159362-avondale) thanked for this post


First time that I have been thanked for a post sixteen years ago. Glad it is still helpful.

[clear out]

Why not?

I often read ancient posts, especially the ones that appear under current ones responding to key words or phrases I guess.
I’m often tempted to ‘like’ or thank but don’t because they’re so old.
Theres so much useful info on here if you’ve the time and inclination to peruse it.
H.

[Avondale]

Old saying "Praise where praise is due"
I have a perfectly good wheelie bin minus the lid.
Thought it'd make a perfect receptacle for wood shavings.
Searched here for wheelie bin and voila

Agree, these old threads can be very useful.

Seeing this has been commented, if anyone has anything new to add to bring latest innovations I'd welcome thanks

[Mobyturns]

I like the practicality of the wheelie bin idea but see one huge barrier for most considering this idea - the sheer bulk and weight of a full wheelie bin of fine sawdust especially considering the difference in shavings now produced by helical cutter heads. How do you manage that, especially for the not so young wood worker.

Many councils now have rubbish collection trucks that are fitted with numerous sensors and even cameras to detect what is in the rubbish, particularly prohibited materials. I have seen wheelie bins in our street replaced on the kerb unemptied i.e. still full because they exceeded a weight limit or some other such criteria.

Our council will not accept sawdust as "green waste" even if it is only coarse shavings, nor will it accept it at transfer stations as "general waste," but will accept it in "small quantities" in "general waste wheelie bins" for domestic collection only so the only option for suburban hobbyists is small quantities. Or you could pay for an industrial waste pickup then that raises other significant questions - are you conducting a business???

Not an issue if you have an outlet for your waste such as a horse stable or you are on a rural lot and can self manage the waste in compliance with local bylaws.

[Avondale]

I like the practicality of the wheelie bin idea but see one huge barrier for most considering this idea - the sheer bulk and weight of a full wheelie bin of fine sawdust especially considering the difference in shavings now produced by helical cutter heads. How do you manage that, especially for the not so young wood worker.
I'd just wheel outside and add to the mulched native garden.
I appreciate the dilemma if no such option.
One of the things that attracted me to the idea was it's portability.
I'd been mulling for a while. All the time looking at this bin begging to be used.

[BobL]

At the mens shed I used to go to their usually overly full Clearvue wheelie bin sawdust receptacle would be emptied into their community veggie garden but my observation was that unless it is well mixed with soil, fine sawdust was a poor mulching material as it tended to compact and bind as a layer on the surface when it got wet and reduced water penetration. Also, Just adding it to soil without added nitrogen did not help plant growth.

Another factor to consider if the bins aware decided to be used as separators is their squarish cross section shape. I know the OP simply had an inlet and outlet in the lid but that would have 1) provided very poor separation and 2) been highly resistant to flow leaving most of the fine dust back in the shed. The former issue, 1) might have been improved by using a curved flow entry path eg a Thein type setup BUT the squarish cross section would interfere with the air rotation, cause great turbulence and been even more restrictive to flow.

[Avondale]

At the mens shed I used to go to their usually overly full Clearvue wheelie bin sawdust receptacle would be emptied into their community veggie garden but my observation was that unless it is well mixed with soil, fine sawdust was a poor mulching material as it tended to compact and bind as a layer on the surface when it got wet and reduced water penetration. Also, Just adding it to soil without added nitrogen did not help plant growth.

Another factor to consider if the bins aware decided to be used as separators is their squarish cross section shape. I know the OP simply had an inlet and outlet in the lid but that would have 1) provided very poor separation and 2) been highly resistant to flow leaving most of the fine dust back in the shed. The former issue, 1) might have been improved by using a curved flow entry path eg a Thein type setup BUT the squarish cross section would interfere with the air rotation, cause great turbulence and been even more restrictive to flow.
Thanks for input
I've used this for mulch for years and hadn't seen it compact.
But I'd mainly have buzzer/thickneser shavings (not helical).
Oh and plenty of bark from the gum trees.

Hadn't thought square vs round! Oh!
One thing I can at least try it out.
Edit: now you've got me thinking might just use one of the 200l blue plastic drums the teat spray comes in.
Put wheels on and find other use for lidless wheelie bin

[QC Inspector]

Another factor to consider if the bins aware decided to be used as separators is their squarish cross section shape. I know the OP simply had an inlet and outlet in the lid but that would have 1) provided very poor separation and 2) been highly resistant to flow leaving most of the fine dust back in the shed. The former issue, 1) might have been improved by using a curved flow entry path eg a Thein type setup BUT the squarish cross section would interfere with the air rotation, cause great turbulence and been even more restrictive to flow.

Bob as you know I came across some papers on square and hexagonal cyclones. Some of the papers say in a nutshell that while the resistance to flow is higher the separation of small/fine particles improves due to vortexes in the corners. I think much the same as the swirls formed behind boulders in a stream drop silt where the mainstream carries them along. Could the increased turbulence in the corners of the wheelie bin help with some separation at least until the bin volume decreases?

Pete

[Avondale]

Bob as you know I came across some papers on square and hexagonal cyclones. Some of the papers say in a nutshell that while the resistance to flow is higher the separation of small/fine particles improves due to vortexes in the corners. I think much the same as the swirls formed behind boulders in a stream drop silt where the mainstream carries them along. Could the increased turbulence in the corners of the wheelie bin help with some separation at least until the bin volume decreases?

Pete
I've decided to give it a crack.
Put a lid on it and play with in/outlets and hook it upto my Dawn blower.
It might be too powerful and just clean the bin out.
Waiting on parts for my thicknesser so won't be making serious shavings for a while

[BobL]

Bob as you know I came across some papers on square and hexagonal cyclones. Some of the papers say in a nutshell that while the resistance to flow is higher the separation of small/fine particles improves due to vortexes in the corners. I think much the same as the swirls formed behind boulders in a stream drop silt where the mainstream carries them along. Could the increased turbulence in the corners of the wheelie bin help with some separation at least until the bin volume decreases?

Pete

I'm not sure, but given the OP's not using it as cyclone ie no side entry and no "conification", there's unlikely to be any cyclonic action. The main issue with not using it, is separators restricting flow and hence not collecting the maximum amount of air/dust back in the workshop.



I've used this for mulch for years and hadn't seen it compact.
But I'd mainly have buzzer/thickneser shavings (not helical).
Oh and plenty of bark from the gum trees.

Shavings and bark are great mulch starters. The stuff I was referring to had a fair bit of sanding dust in it. I know that stables won't take sawdust that has a too much sanding dust in it as it combines with horse pee to make a horrible mud.