Timber for Lute Bowl

[GarciaJ]

I have been looking at Robert Lundberg's book on Lute making http://www.luth.org/books/lute_book.html, and some posts here and other websites. I'm keen to give it a go, even though I relalise that this is going to be a several year project for the likes of me...

Lundberg reckons that in the Rennaissance lutemakers preferred Yew for the bowl but that was always scarce and expensive (It was a timber that was reserved to make bows and other weapons) so they chose the hardest woods or materials that they could get their hands on - usually Rosewood, Mahogany - even Ivory and Ebony. This materials were split into very thin veneers (~2 mm) and shaped over molds to make the bowl.

Later - in the Baroque period - lute makers used Maple because it was more easily accessible and therefore much cheaper. But were split into thicker veneers because it has a different tonal quality.

The thing is: in Australia we have some very hard, very beautiful woods (Red and Grey Ironbark, Turpentine, Grey Box, Spotted Gum). But their hardness may make them somewhat hard to glue and shape, etc - which needs to be considered as the ribs are very thin veneers glued edge to edge over a mold.

On the one hand, the traditional lute makers seemed to go for very hard very thin materials - on the other many good instruments have been made from hard timber, and using "very hard" timbers may not be worth the bother.

Does anyone one have any thoughts about these very hard timbers being used for this purpose?

[kiwigeo]

You can use a wide variety of woods for a Lute body...choice of wood really doesn't influence the sound as much as the top. If this is your first instrument then Indian Rosewood is a good option.

For my Renaissance lute I used opportunity grade IRW side sets from LMI in the US. Not sure if they still stock them.

My first piece of advice is to make sure the internal mould you make up is as accurate....any inaccuracy will cause you major headaches later on.

For a run down on my lute build see here: http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1659&p=21720&hilit=lute#p21720

[GarciaJ]

You can use a wide variety of woods for a Lute body...choice of wood really doesn't influence the sound as much as the top. If this is your first instrument then Indian Rosewood is a good option.

For my Renaissance lute I used opportunity grade IRW side sets from LMI in the US. Not sure if they still stock them.

My first piece of advice is to make sure the internal mould you make up is as accurate....any inaccuracy will cause you major headaches later on.

For a run down on my lute build see here: http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1659&p=21720&hilit=lute#p21720

Hi Kiwigeo, thank you for the reply

Yes, I am beginning to think that you are right... Robert Lundberg's book is "a bit of a squeeze". It really starts as a study of historical lutes and in that part of the book he implies that Renaissance luthiers used he hardest available materials... But if you read an interview between the ghost writer and the Lundberg elsehwere in the book he says: "... there is no reason to be snobbish about selecting materials. The old makers weren't. They basically used local woods which were 'good enough' ".

I have since thought about this and am guessing that this need to go for local timbers that were "good enough" arose as a necessity rather than as a preference. Travel and transportation were not exactly easy for most people in those days... And it just so happens that the locally available materials that were "good enough", where actually very good materials... Ash, Maple Plum, Apple - they preferred Yew if they were allowed to have any. In fact I would be willing to guess that they couldn't even imagine that there may be better materials "out there".

Bellies were made from Abies fir or Spruce (Pine..., really). Which are really handy timbers to have available locally, if you are a luthier.

Lundberg's took a very interesting approach to lute making... It was really important for him that his lutes were "authentic" in the sense that they they should be made in the "spirit" of the old traditions... and so the designs are full of idiosyncrasy - for example they are not really symmetrical about any point. Incidentally - unlike the ribs on your bowl - the ribs on his bowl don't finish on a point at either end... (because the ribs on old maker's lutes didn't, and the end of the lute is capped both inside and out with reinforcing strps that run perpendicular to the ribs, hiding the apex of the bowl). He also shaped neck angle on the block before gluing the ribs to it....

In another post on the NZ luthiers forum I read someone discussing Radiata Pine as a material for the belly of a musical intrument (tonewood). He RAVES about it! Started quite a discussion! I don't know Spruce, Radiata it's all pine, isn't it? What do you think?

Jorge

[Euge]

Hi Jorge,

Firstly, I wish to say I am NOT a musical instrument maker but I occasional supply materials (mostly woods) to makers.

The backs of guitars, lutes and other stringed instruments can be, and are usually made of, beautiful woods (usually not softwoods) whereas the tone woods on tone boards are usually careful chosen and cut softwoods. We have many beutiful hardwoods. Even some good native tonewoods (not planation Pines).

For the back why not consider using figured Tasmanian blackwood or Queensland Maple or a figured Eucalypt eg stringy bark or ash? I have seen some fine stringed instruments made using ONLY Australian woods.

I suggest quarter sawn, dry knot free woods that are easily bent and glued and look super. I know a luthier (a lutemaker) in Tas who may be able to offer you some practical assistance if you wish. PM me if thats your wish, no obligation and this is not a sales pitch.

Good luck. Its a fine item to create.

Eugene

[GarciaJ]

For the back why not consider using figured Tasmanian blackwood or Queensland Maple or a figured Eucalypt eg stringy bark or ash? I have seen some fine stringed instruments made using ONLY Australian woods.

I suggest quarter sawn, dry knot free woods that are easily bent and glued and look super. I know a luthier (a lutemaker) in Tas who may be able to offer you some practical assistance if you wish. PM me if thats your wish, no obligation and this is not a sales pitch.



Thank you Eugene.

You and I are on the same wavelength, I think. This journey started a couple of years ago when my father pulled a 14" band saw out of a skip (essentially) and that I then restored, by installing new blades, tyres and tuning the guides etc. That saw is working so well now that I have been ripping 1 mm veneers with it - and thought "Hmmm what can I do with this??"

Victorian Ash/Tassie Oak occurred to me for the bowl - It's a bit pale (I like dark backs), but I have used the timber for furniture and it's available in abundance - I even have some off cuts that I can try to make ribs out of out. But I was not aware of any native timbers that would suitable for the top (belly).

I am starting to rethink the idea of making a lute in favor of making a kasha braced ukulele like this:

350299

It's not that I am put off by the challenge of the lute, but that we already 2 cheap soprano ukes in the house, and so a tenor or barritone uke is a more immediately useful instrument, and can be beautiful in its own right.

It is clear that the choices of wood for the back and sides are similar to those that one would choose for the lute bowl. And the choices for the lute front/face are the same as for a lute belly. In fact, both instruments require similar quantities of each wood (barritone ukes are pretty big).

As for sales pitch, I wouldn't mind - I will not be making any instrument in commercial quantities so the value of any help that you may provide by supplying timbers that others have found to be suitable would be far in excess of any money that you would make.

I'll keep you in mind

Warmest regards

Jorge

[mandoman]

There are many Australian hardwoods that would be suitable but not many softwoods suitable for soundboards. You can't go far wrong with Blackwood for B&S and Engelmann Spruce for the top for a first instrument. LMI in the USA has some great Engelmann Spruce, but there are others. Pinus radiata is an excellent wood for soundboards, but it is very difficult to find a good piece that is suitable. Most is crap.

[kiwigeo]

Hi Jorge,

Answers/comments re your last posts:

1. Yes to a large degree builders make use of the materials that are available to them. This varies depending on what part of the world youre in and also what sort of budget you're on.

2. Swiss spruce is my favourite wood for Lute tops. My tops are sourced from Tim Spittle in WA.

3. I built my lute mainly following a Tute from David Van Edwards (highly recommended) but also with input from Lundburg's excellent book. Both resources should be top of the list for anyone delving into the world of lute building.

4. Radiata for top wood? Some people have made it work but when choosing a top wood my mission statement is "light and stiff" and Radiata is not match for other woods in this department. My favourite top woods for my guitars are Lutz, Sitka and Englemann Spruce. Swiss Spruce is a beautiful wood but its pricey so I reserve it for my lutes and special guitar builds.

5. Tasmanian Blackwood is a beautiful wood but if you're bending it then discolouration due to the high tannins can be an issue.

6. Kasha bracing.....Kasha had some interesting ideas but before building a Kasha instrument I'd do a bit of research on the man and his ideas. If youre interested in alternative bracing design then consider falcate bracing as an alternative.

Cheers Martin

[GarciaJ]

6. Kasha bracing.....Kasha had some interesting ideas but before building a Kasha instrument I'd do a bit of research on the man and his ideas. If youre interested in alternative bracing design then consider falcate bracing as an alternative.



Thanks for the heads up. I must admit that it's the look of the instrument that attracted me to the Kasha bracing... again there are those (not Kasha) that rave about the sound. I would make the Lute for the woodworking challenge it represents and the look of it - Even so I would not contemplate making an instrument that's just for display.

I play the guitar, (if you can call it playing). My daughters REALLY play the guitar but we have four guitars, and my daughters REALLY play the ukelele as well.

My daughters don't play classical music, and when I talk about a lute they say "cool" and I sense that they are just being nice to their old man. When I mentioned a Ukelele yesterday the response was much more encouraging than "cool".

Thanks for the comments every one, I've enjoyed the chat...

Jorge

By the way, look what I found

http://breedlovemusic.com/soundstudio/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tonewood-chart-updated.png

[GarciaJ]

Hi Jorge,

6. Kasha bracing.....Kasha had some interesting ideas but before building a Kasha instrument I'd do a bit of research on the man and his ideas. If youre interested in alternative bracing design then consider falcate bracing as an alternative.

Cheers Martin

Hi Martin

Still keen to make a Kasha Ukelele. It's not so much the bracing as the offset sound hole and the interesting look of the bridge.

Do you think that the Kasha instrument would be more challenging to build than a conventional instrument for a first time luther? I can't imagine why it may be

Jorge

[kiwigeo]

Hi Martin

Still keen to make a Kasha Ukelele. It's not so much the bracing as the offset sound hole and the interesting look of the bridge.

Do you think that the Kasha instrument would be more challenging to build than a conventional instrument for a first time luther? I can't imagine why it may be

Jorge

I probably wouldn't go for a Kasha braced instrument for a first build but that's probably more a personal thing with me. I started my building with conventional classical and steel string builds with the intention of understanding how conventional bracing and other factors control the sound of an instrument. From there I moved into less conventional builds incorporating falcate bracing and other features.

As mentioned above Id encourage you to do a bit of research into Kasha bracing and the theory behind it and how it is supposed to be superior to conventional bracing. Build your Kasha uke but then I'd urge you to build a conventionally braced uke and compare the two.

[GarciaJ]

As mentioned above Id encourage you to do a bit of research into Kasha bracing and the theory behind it and how it is supposed to be superior to conventional bracing. Build your Kasha uke but then I'd urge you to build a conventionally braced uke and compare the two.

Thank you Martin, in fact I've taken your advice. Which was sort of replicated by the staff at Georgia Luthier Supplies, where I have now bought plans from for a traditional X braced instrument. I can't imagine that I will be making many, hence the importance of the initial decision.

I'll have to find some other way of making my instrument quirky and unique... Like the choice of timbers, or something.

Thanks again for persevering with me.

Jorge

[kiwigeo]

Thank you Martin, in fact I've taken your advice. Which was sort of replicated by the staff at Georgia Luthier Supplies, where I have now bought plans from for a traditional X braced instrument. I can't imagine that I will be making many, hence the importance of the initial decision.

I'll have to find some other way of making my instrument quirky and unique... Like the choice of timbers, or something.

Thanks again for persevering with me.

Jorge

No perseverence on my part....it's all about sharing information and experiences.

Ways of making your uke quirky and unique......try Australian woods and try falcate bracing. My last uke had Tiger Myrtle back and sides, a Queensland Maple neck and a sitka top. The bracing was falcate...laminated King Billy Pine/Carbon Fibre.

[GarciaJ]

No perseverence on my part....it's all about sharing information and experiences.

Ways of making your uke quirky and unique......try Australian woods and try falcate bracing. My last uke had Tiger Myrtle back and sides, a Queensland Maple neck and a sitka top. The bracing was falcate...laminated King Billy Pine/Carbon Fibre.

In the spirit of being quirky and experimenting on my first uke, I'm going to try top grade (knot free and straight grained) Radiata Pine for the for the top and bracing and Jarrah for the back. Before you cry shock! horror! please consider:

Density of Sitka Spruce = 450 kg/cubic m Density of Radiata Pine = 480 kg/cubic m Density of Red Cedar = 380 kg/cubic m
Density of Rosewood = 900 kg/cubic m Density of Jarrah = 830 kg/cubic m

It's my first instrument so I'm likely to stuff it up, and if I don't then I can be proud of the fact that I made it from timbers that are available at the major retailers.

How is that for "quirky"? Falcate bracing doesn't do it for me, Martin as the falcate Uke looks like a normal uke.

[J.F. Custom®]

Hi Jorge.

Funny, I was reading through this thread for interest on the subject matter, thinking I might throw my 2c in... Only to see you've posted a pic of one of my builds! :cool:

So to clarify for you - that particular ukulele is not in fact a Kasha braced instrument, though I have built with Kasha bracing in ukulele's before. True, it superficially resembles a Kasha style instrument with the offset soundhole, but it does not feature an asymmetrical bridge and is significantly different from Kasha internally. That instrument actually features my own modified falcate style bracing, along with my own bridge design.

You can incorporate change like an offset soundhole with various bracing styles, but careful design and consideration must be given to the whole layout. Bracing design plays an integral role in the function of the soundboard and resulting tone, it is not changed purely cosmetically, but with intention to shape performance. By all means play around or experiment, but without the experience or specific plans, you'd be going by guess work. Fun, provided you aren't hung up about the results. Alternatively, as Martin suggests you could go with a tried and tested design and aim for a quality result. There is no reason you could not achieve that with patience in the process.

With respect to your timbers however, absolutely go for it. There are heaps of timbers outside the traditions that will work and can look and sound superb. Jarrah has been used by luthiers before, as has Radiata pine. But to clarify, pines are not pines per se! There are more details to cross reference than just weight. Stiffness to weight ratio being a very important measure, cross grain stiffness etc. We are hard pressed in Australia to measure up to the standards many of the various spruces feature. Instruments have been built with Radiata, Bunya, Kauri, King Billy, Huon and many more. Some King Billy I've worked has had specs that match spruce, but that's hard to find now. Even within species, the timber varies greatly with some King Billy feeling dry and stiff, other pieces as floppy as cardboard. Great tone can be had from all, but it takes skill and experience to coax the best out of them when you are already behind the eight ball compared to other options. But perhaps that doesn't really matter in this case. Yours will have a unique sound, all your own and you made it! Likely that's good enough for now. In general my advice would be, try not to 'overbuild' - that's common when starting out, but ukuleles are usually best when light and responsive.

I hope it helps. Good luck and enjoy the process! Perhaps we'll see some pictures of your results in time.

Regards,

Jeremy.

J.F. Custom Guitars

http://www.jfcustom.com.au

Australian Guitar Tonewood

http://www.australianguitartonewood.com

[GarciaJ]

Hi Jorge.

Funny, I was reading through this thread for interest on the subject matter, thinking I might throw my 2c in... Only to see you've posted a pic of one of my builds! :cool:

With respect to your timbers however, absolutely go for it. There are heaps of timbers outside the traditions that will work and can look and sound superb. Jarrah has been used by luthiers before, as has Radiata pine. But to clarify, pines are not pines per se! There are more details to cross reference than just weight. Stiffness to weight ratio being a very important measure, cross grain stiffness etc. We are hard pressed in Australia to measure up to the standards many of the various spruces feature. Instruments have been built with Radiata, Bunya, Kauri, King Billy, Huon and many more. Some King Billy I've worked has had specs that match spruce, but that's hard to find now. Even within species, the timber varies greatly with some King Billy feeling dry and stiff, other pieces as floppy as cardboard. Great tone can be had from all, but it takes skill and experience to coax the best out of them when you are already behind the eight ball compared to other options. But perhaps that doesn't really matter in this case. Yours will have a unique sound, all your own and you made it! Likely that's good enough for now. In general my advice would be, try not to 'overbuild' - that's common when starting out, but ukuleles are usually best when light and responsive.

I hope it helps. Good luck and enjoy the process! Perhaps we'll see some pictures of your results in time.

Regards,

Jeremy.

J.F. Custom Guitars

http://www.jfcustom.com.au

Australian Guitar Tonewood

http://www.australianguitartonewood.com


The response to this post has been very good and more than what I could hope for - You have all shown such generosity with your experience and insights.

I bought plans from Georgia Luthier supplies for a traditionally braced, 14 fret tenor Ukelele. So it's relatively big instrument. I have made many peices of furniture now, and for each piece I've set my self a special challenge to keep things interesting - Use dowel joints, use mortice and tenons - use cheap radiata shelving material from Bunnings. I have a lot of radiata off cuts. A couple of them are very straight grained and look as though I could get a top out of it. It was a natural first choice... and I know that some have made it work before. The advice here has not fallen on deaf ears... I will try a spruce or cedar top instrument one day maybe or some of the figured Australian hardwoods for the sides and backs - But I want to sharpen my teeth (so to speak) with timber that I already have lying around.

Looking carefully at the picture i lifted of the net, yes it is clear that the instrument is not a kasha - now that I know a bit more, I can see that the bridge is conventional.

I'll stick to the plan that I bought for now. I daresay that it will take me a while to complete the instrument.

I've made my own bending ion, for about $100 in Pasts. Maybe I'll post on that later

[GarciaJ]

Sorry about all the spelling mistakes, everyone

.... I have made many PIECES of furniture now, and for each piece I've set my self a special challenge to keep things interesting - ....

I've made my own bending IRON, for about $100 in PARTS. Maybe I'll post on that later