Fixing marble tops

[fletty]

I'm about to start a new project which is a dresser/ wine cabinet in a colonial marble topped dresser style. I have the design (in my head), I have the marble top (1200 x 600 x 20 'afghan jade', dark green with ivory swirls) and I've put an offer in on some old slabbed Australian red cedar but I'm a bit stumped until I work out how to fix the top to the cabinet OR find out how it was done 'in the old days'?
In a few select places I could drill right through the marble and the structure above would hide the screw heads but I feel it will need more fixing points?
I haven't yet tried to drill the marble but, presuming I can, I could drill blind holes from underneath and epoxy in either short threaded rods or threaded inserts?
So;

Has anyone done this before?
can I drill marble?
does anyone have a marble topped dresser and how is the marble top fixed?

Many thanks, fletty

[elanjacobs]

Don't know how they used to do it, but a few good lines of glass/mirror silicon will do the job. I'd go one line around the edge and a generous zigzag through the middle.

[fletty]

Don't know how they used to do it, but a few good lines of glass/mirror silicon will do the job. I'd go one line around the edge and a generous zigzag through the middle.

Hi Elan',
Silicon or even epoxy were my first thoughts but I'm worried that 'sometime, someone, somewhere' will try to lift the loaded cabinet by lifting from the edge of the marble and then that joint will take the weight of a fully loaded cabinet? I was thinking that (probably) 4 strategically placed screws PLUS silicon/epoxy might be the go?
Ive googled drilling marble and I presume it will be like drilling porcelain tiles (?) and hence I will need a diamond bit (?) BUT diamond core bits will leave a plug in the middle of the hole and I don't know if that would be simple to snap out or not?

fletty

[RoyG]

About ten years ago when clearing out my Uncle's house after he'd passed away, one of the items of furniture that we found was a Bathroom Vanity dating (according to family members' memories) to some time just before WW1. That Vanity Unit is built from Aussie Red Cedar and has a Marble Top. The Marble top is not attached to the vanity unit - it simply sits on top of the wooden cabinet, secured by gravity. The vanity cabinet itself does not have wood top under the marble. The marble top simply rests on the top edge of the vanity cabinet frame. Apparently the family practice when the marble top needed a good clean (rather than just a wipe with a damp rag) was to lift the top off and take it outside for a good scrub, which probably explains why the timber cabinet structure itself was still in very good condition. That Vanity Unit now lives with relatives interstate, so unfortunately I can't easily post a picture of it.

One of the Antique Dealers in Esk (SEQ) had a similar Marble Topped Bathroom Vanity in their shop a month or so ago, and the marble top on that unit was not fastened to the cabinet. That antique was apparently early 1900s French origin. The antique dealer told me that you don't see marble tops being glued to the cabinet structure until after WW2 when suitable adhesives started to slowly become available. He did say that some similar vanity units, mainly of German origin dating to the early 1900s, sometimes have the marble top secured to the cabinet using stainless steel or chrome dome headed bolts, with the nuts inside the cabinet - but he said that he had never been able to ascertain whether the bolts were original construction, or a later addition. Until then, it seems that they relied on Gravity to do the job.

I'll be building a new vanity unit myself next month, and plan to use a suitable silicon sealant or builders glue to bond the pseudo Marble top (a one piece basin and bench top) to the cabinet structure.

RoyG

[fletty]

Thanks Roy,
That explains a lot of things!
I have been looking at marble topped furniture in antique shops and had found 2 dressers that did NOT have any cabinet work above the marble and I thought they were broken because the marble tops were loose :B !

I guess I should have realised that 2 out of 2 was more than a trend?

It is quite possible therefore that only the ones that also have cabinet work above the marble top have fixed tops and that could be because the cabinet work is used to hide mechanical fasteners?

I'm going to look for a bit of scrap marble and try drilling and fixing threaded rod and threaded inserts and see how well that works because the design already allows me hide at least 2 through holes and then (say) 4 more hidden fasteners should do the job?

fletty

[chambezio]

Fletty, when I was working, (White board cabinets) any stone tops that were required were supplied and fitted by a bloke who specialised in all kinds of stone work. He would mix up Megapoxy to glue joints in the stuff as well as using it to glue down the top. You have to have acetone on hand to help clean up.
Once the glue went of it was a very PERMANENT fix. I would steer away from any metal fixing of the top. Marble is brittle (like any stone top) and will not tolerate any tension from fixings. To fix the top down in your case, I would install the cabinet in position and screw fix to a wall (if applicable) then just use Megapoxy the top and walk away. If you need to clamp it down use something heavy and just weigh it down, don't use clamps at all! In 24 hours it will be there for good

[biscuitman]

I'm thinking that some strategically placed dobs of silicone would be the way to go. You could mark the underside of the marble as to their location. That way if for any reason the top required removal down the track, a sharp flexible scraper or blade could be used to cut through the silicone. Epoxy would obviously stronger, but probably impossible to cut through if necessary. Just my thoughts...

[fletty]

Thanks Elan', Roy and Rod ....and Biscuitman,
Given your posts, and a bit more googling on marble, I'm going to try it with NO fasteners but use MEGAPOXY.
Ive just googled MEGAPOXY and it seems very impressive. So impressive in fact that, just before I start the job, I'm going to post a note on the forum so that, if I suddenly go quiet for a day or 2, you'll know that I've glued myself to the dresser and need separation and rescuing!
fletty

[wheelinround]

Another way if top needed to be removed is to adhere 2 or 3 battens across the underside make a swinging lock screwed to those battens for easy removal of the top in the future.

[ian]

Thanks Elan', Roy and Rod ....and Biscuitman,
Given your posts, and a bit more googling on marble, I'm going to try it with NO fasteners but use MEGAPOXY.please don't

I've just spoken to a cousin who is seriously into antique furniture.
They have "never seen" an antique where the marble / stone top is attached to the base. Gravity is all that is needed.

you don't really need to worry about the top being bumped far enough to fall off the cabinet -- I calculate that the "bump" needed to dislodge a gravity attached top weighing ~40kg far enough that the top fell to the floor, would equate to a horizontal displacement in the order of 600 mm (assuming the cabinet is located near a wall). A "bump" that strong is getting into greater than 9 on the Richter scale.

[fletty]

please don't

I've just spoken to a cousin who is seriously into antique furniture.
They have "never seen" an antique where the marble / stone top is attached to the base. Gravity is all that is needed.

you don't really need to worry about the top being bumped far enough to fall off the cabinet -- I calculate that the "bump" needed to dislodge a gravity attached top weighing ~40kg far enough that the top fell to the floor, would equate to a horizontal displacement in the order of 600 mm (assuming the cabinet is located near a wall). A "bump" that strong is getting into greater than 9 on the Richter scale.

Having already bumped into the marble top several times and come off second best, I can confirm that it certainly doesn't move easily BUT how will I go with the cabinet work (backboard, shelves and 2 end cupboards) that are to be on top of the marble?
I guess I could continue the backboard down to below the marble top and tie it all together that way?

fletty

[ian]

Hi fletty

if the top of the lower carcass were all wood you could
1. use dowels to locate the upper carcass.
2. screw the upper carcass to the top of the lower carcass.
3. create a recess in the top of the lower carcass to locate and lock the upper carcass in place.
4. use battens to tie the two carcasses together.

with a marble top, your options for the upper carcass are
1. gravity
2. gravity assisted by locating battens pinned into the marble to ensure that the upper carcass says in the "correct" relative position.
3. battens tying the backs of the top and bottom carcasses together.

regardless of the method you adopt, I suggest that the lowest part of the upper cabinet be considered sacrificial -- to be repaired or replaced following any spillage on the marble that stains or damages the upper carcass.

[fletty]

I was under a degree of domestic pressure, "happy wife, happy life" etc so I suggested "let's go to Mittagong' which raised firstly a smile and then a quizzical stare!
I guess me volunteering to go to a 'girly' antique store when there is a blokey antique store across the road nearly gave me away ...but I think I got away with it?
There is a marble topped table inside the door, the top is definitely fixed but I couldn't see how because it is done between the top battens and the marble. Further back in the shop, past the 'girly stuff', there was another marble topped table although much smaller. It was on a cast iron frame and the marble top, which wouldn't be heavy enough to stay put, was fixed to the stand with what appears to be spikes on the stand located in roughly cut pockets in the marble and then fixed with plaster of Paris?
I'm going to complete the design presuming that the marble will 'float' and that the top and bottom cabinets will be linked together by braces on the back. If the slab is too 'mobile', then i'll glue/screw a single batten onto the bottom face of the marble to screw into a suitable part of the lower carcase.
I remember reading many years ago that morgue slabs are made from marble because it has the unique ability to be (feel?) 3 degrees below the room ambient. If that IS the case, then I will also have expansion issues if I put too much fixing between the carcase and marble slab and so 2 fixing points should be OK and leave room for relative movement perpendicular to the brace.
I have thus successfully left a difficult question to later ....and I'm in the good books!

fletty

[Rod Gilbert]

Hi fletty,
I have two cabinets that I made twenty or so years ago on is a hutch dresser and the other is a matching three draw unit both have Imperial red granite on the tops not fixed and there has never been any movement at all ever as said gravity is you're friend they will not move until you need them to having just moved and had to carry them reminded me of the weight that gravity uses so well the hutch top is 1500x500x20 and the draw unit is 1000x500x20.
Regards Rod.

[johnc]

Marble is easy to drill as it is reasonably soft, don't use the hammer function you should be able to run a hole using it normally which reduces the risk of fracturing the stone on thin material.

Having said that you don't fix the top to the base, that only leads to cracking of the stone through movement. You simply let gravity do its stuff.

If you need to glue fixings, use epoxy, it never lets go, if you want to fix to a base silicone works well

[wheelinround]

The more modern stone top coffee table we have is glued.

[Prle77]

I would stay away from drilling it..
a) you will be damaging nice flat surface....
b) by drilling marble you will weaken it as well as risking from marble cracking.. Usually when marble is drilled it is with water jets...
c) even if you fasten it.. if someone tries to lift the unit by grabbing the marble.. it might cause marble snapping under the weight..

What we generally do is actually glue locators (triangular pieces of mdf or wood which are flush with inside corners of the cabinets)
those will prevent marble from being moved if someone nudges it or hit it..
The benefit of such system is .. marble can be removed for transport purposes .. and thanks to locators.. marble will always bee placed in the same spot and same way
just a suggestion...

[fletty]

Thinking aloud......

Thanks everyone. I've got a couple of worries and a possible solution.
I was worried about 'someone' trying to lift the whole piece by the marble top, the marble top separating from the bottom cabinet AND breaking the top cabinet off?
So, I could make it as 3 separate pieces with the marble floating but with Prie's locating blocks and the upper and lower cabinets located via battens up the back?
WE HAVE A PLAN!

fletty

[GraemeCook]

Hi Fletty

I agree with Ian. Don't use epoxy or anything rigid.

We have antique side table, dresser and two bedside tables with marble tops. All are held in place by gravity, alone. No problems.

Our modern kitchen has Carrara marble benches and splash backs up to 5 metres long. All are held in place with plumbers silicon - the $4 per tube stuff!


Fair Winds

Graeme

[Bob38S]

I have a bar with a marble top, 1715 x 610 x 19.

Very heavy to shift - 2 men, 3 boys and a hernia. As others have said, Gravity only, has never shifted.

My only concern with actually attaching it to a top would be humidity. The timber will move, especially if the finishing is only done on the outside. Timber moves but the marble doesn't - my prediction would be that at some stage in the future it will crack. Not the look I think you are looking to achieve.

Just a thought.

[johnc]

Marble does move, expand and contract, it can also bow. It needs to move and shouldn't have weight bearing down on it unduly in furniture. in old pieces that have marble backs
and side pieces you often see brass pins as dowels fixed in place with Plaster of Paris or some times white cement. I have seen wood screws run through holes to attach timber fittings. There are no hard and fast rules, these days silicone and epoxies have taken over, my experience is monumental work, working with pieces that weigh up to 800Kg on your own using bars, levers and rolls, anything up to 400Kg isn't a big deal, after that you need an assistant. The biggest risk is damaging material through inexperience, the main hurdle to make sure you are always working with gravity not against it.

[Bob38S]

Thanks for that.

I was not aware that marble moved. In comparison to wood, how would the movement compare and is it uniform in all directions.

[johnc]

Doesn't move much, but you put a slab on a monument with too much slope and it will gradually creep downhill as it expands and contracts. The wood moves much more, as long as you've allowed for wood movement the small variation in stone will not have an impact.

[fletty]

Thank you for the help everyone. I have now designed it around 4 separable pieces, a lower cabinet including a backing board (hopefully) with matching antique tiles, the marble slab and 2 upper cabinets that will mount to the backing board and sit on the slab. The slab will only sit on the bottom cabinet via gravity, 'friction and stiction' although I will glue locating blocks onto the bottom of the slab if it appears too mobile.
IF someone does try to lift it via the slab only, the slab will lift off the lower cabinet and the upper much smaller cabinet/s will rise on the vertical dovetail battens that locate them. This should alert 'someone' to STOP LIFTING!
fletty