#40, heavy backed dovetail saw

[rob streeper]

Handle material is, I think, Guatemalan rosewood - supplied by the customer, profile to customer specification. Back is 10" folded 1/8" brass. Blade 0.015" 1095 toothed 15ppi with 12o rake filed rip, 10.125" at the toothline.

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[derekcohen]

Hi Rob

Is "Alamo" your brand on eBay? I see them around. The are a nice kit for someone, looking to put together a premium backsaw, who is interested in doing just the final shaping of the handle.

Nice sharpening.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob

Is "Alamo" your brand on eBay? I see them around. The are a nice kit for someone, looking to put together a premium backsaw, who is interested in doing just the final shaping of the handle.

Nice sharpening.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

Thanks. Yes, Alamo Toolworks is the trade name I use.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Very nice work Rob.

Stewie; :2tsup:

[Sawdust Maker]

cool tool

[Simplicity]

Very nice Mr Rob
Like the saw bolts

[rob streeper]

Very nice Mr Rob
Like the saw bolts

Thanks Matt,

We're probably going to bring the laser work in-house soon. Doing so will greatly expand our capabilities, I'll post pic's when we do.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

Some more views.

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[Simplicity]

Great shots
It's a shame postage is so high from the states to Australia

[rob streeper]

Great shots
It's a shame postage is so high from the states to Australia

Thanks again Matt,

4 lb. boxes run $25US postage to Australia, 20 lb. boxes are about $65US. Somebody will come up with cost effective shipping. I've bought 100X small picture hangers from China for $1.99 with free shipping so it must be possible somehow.

[rob streeper]

Despite the fact that the saw was protected by 3/4" hard polyurethane foam panel on both sides, two layers of bubble wrap, VCI paper etc. the USPS managed to destroy another saw. At this point they wreck about 5% of my shipments. Makes me proud to be an Amurikan :((.

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[rob streeper]

Just talked with the customer. He wants another saw, disappointed but not defeated:U. He related that the back is bent about 1/8" out of true.
On these heavy brass backs the final forming pressure runs 25 to 35 tons (5000 to 7000 psig) depending on the length of the back. How did USPS manage to bend this back considering the intermediate padding/packaging?

I think I'll start insuring my saw shipments for ~$100,000 or so :roll:.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. I can appreciate your disappointment with whats occurred. The 5 % damage rate you have experienced is totally unacceptable. To try and match up the saw plate holes with a new handle is not the easiest of tasks.

No different to the extra effort your put into your packaging;

With the backsaw I recently posted to the USA, I went to extreme lengths to try and protect the saw during transit. Recessed in 57MM kaizan foam; bubble wrapping over the foam; followed by a final outer coverage of cardboard boxing. I also made sure the customer and I were protected against loss and damage via postal insurance. With luck, by the sound of it, the customer received the package in very good condition, so it ended well.

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Given that flat rate boxes will ship 70lbs I'm going to start building safety cages for my saws. Something like two pieces of 3/4" ply with spacer blocks between, all fixed with screws.

On vacation in Europe last year I realized what's meant by the term 'efficiency' when it's used by politicians, I see it now as a cover word for maximize the profits of the plutocracy, everybody else gets the shaft.
Our postal system is striving for increased efficiency, thus the amount of damage goes up. The USPS web interface has also changed drastically, it's now much more difficult to file a damage claim, very efficient.

You and your customer were lucky, glad everything worked out.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. From your openness to share your experience with the UPS postal system, I now better understand there is need to further protect my customers, by increasing the postal insurance well above the value of the saw, to include the high cost of International postal charges to the USA. Much appreciated Rob.

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. From your openness to share your experience with the UPS postal system, I now better understand there is need to further protect my customers, by increasing the postal insurance well above the value of the saw, to include the high cost of International postal charges to the USA. Much appreciated Rob.

regards Stewie;

The damage rate on incoming packages is < 1%, but in my case the vast majority of those are either small packages and or physically robust items. Long and relatively delicate items such as saws are apparently much more liable to destruction.

USPS workers are also in a bit of an uproar (http://postal-indy.blogspot.com/2015/09/postal-workers-dispute-boils-over-ahead.html) and they are known to sometimes take their frustrations out on packages in their charge.

That being said, the USPS management is pure evil, I have it on good authority that they have their employees spy on each other in the name of efficiency.

[Ron Bontz]

The damage rate on incoming packages is < 1%, but in my case the vast majority of those are either small packages and or physically robust items. Long and relatively delicate items such as saws are apparently much more liable to destruction.

USPS workers are also in a bit of an uproar (http://postal-indy.blogspot.com/2015/09/postal-workers-dispute-boils-over-ahead.html) and they are known to sometimes take their frustrations out on packages in their charge.

That being said, the USPS management is pure evil, I have it on good authority that they have their employees spy on each other in the name of efficiency.

Hi Rob. You may wish to look a little closer. It is dependent on the area/ office. But I do know for a fact the UPS actually follows their employees around ( in private vehicles ) to check up on them for what ever reason.
In the mean time, try encapsulating the saw in foam and using your own custom boxes. Those "flat rate" boxes are more expensive than using your own boxes. Just a thought, anyway.

[rob streeper]

Hi Rob. You may wish to look a little closer. It is dependent on the area/ office. But I do know for a fact the UPS actually follows their employees around ( in private vehicles ) to check up on them for what ever reason.
In the mean time, try encapsulating the saw in foam and using your own custom boxes. Those "flat rate" boxes are more expensive than using your own boxes. Just a thought, anyway.

Whoever hit this one was either extremely careless or purposefully destructive.

The person I talked to had first hand knowledge of the covert surveillance by one USPS employee on the others. UPS has been monitoring employees for years and they all know it, counting steps, routes taken, time stopped and so on.

I'm going to begin sandwiching my saws between pieces of plywood or OSB. I often have access to scrap material in sizes perfect for the task, free too.

[rob streeper]

Got this letter in the mail today from the United States Postal Service.

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The backstory is: Customer received box in damaged condition. USPS had affixed a sticker to the box acknowledging that the box was delivered in damaged condition. Customer took the package to the post office and complained. Staff at the post office told the customer to tell me to file a claim for the insured value. I did.

I receive this letter today. Saw and packaging not in my possession, saw is 200 miles away and I don't have the time to go get it and I refuse to pay USPS again to ship it to me. What to do? I called USPS customer service (90 minutes waiting), after numerous false starts and dead ends I finally file complaint about USPS not honoring package insurance.

Note to all: USPS package insurance is effectively non-existent. They make the claims process difficult so as to deter would be claimants. I'm shipping FedEx in the future.

[rob streeper]

Okay, starting again. I needed a new batch of saw backs anyway so I cut the handle out for the customer. He sent me a new piece of rosewood, super hard material stopped my bandsaw several times despite the use of a TC tipped blade. The back is 10 inch folded 0.125" thick brass. Since there have been so many problems with this order I may include a stainless blade as a bene for the customer (switch blade saw), who by the way has been very understanding.

As to the first saw it now sounds like we may get things worked out with the Post Office - fingers crossed.

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[rob streeper]

Just over three weeks from the shipment date. The customers Post Office personel have reportedly verified observing the damaged saw, now a week ago, and no insurance payment. Be very, very careful with USPS - they are delaying payments for insured damages. Make sure that your customers keep the damaged items and all packaging.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. The completed handle shown in your latest photo. Who is the maker.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

No idea. The customer said it was an antique. If you look closely at the photo you can see impressions of star style lock washers in the recesses. The blade slot is distorted (not shown) but overall the handle is in very good to new condition, other than being a bit dirty.

[rob streeper]

The blade slot's enormous, 0.042"+ and it looks hand-cut. Doesn't look too much like a blade has touched the sides as there are little bits of swarf here and there.

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The slot for the back has been hogged out by drilling, two directions, and a little chisel work. Very narrow back, my medium thickness brass (0.085" X2 + blade slot) won't fit.

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The recesses for the screw heads have no bolster inletting, similar to the LN type dovetail screws.

[planemaker]

Thanks Rob. Interesting handle. The care taken within the shaping the handle represents someone who is quite skilled within their work, but the presentation of the mortise represents otherwise. The 0.042" saw blade slot is a quite unusual for that size and type of handle.

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Thanks Rob. Interesting handle. The care taken within the shaping the handle represents someone who is quite skilled within their work, but the presentation of the mortise represents otherwise. The 0.042" saw blade slot is a quite unusual for that size and type of handle.

regards Stewie;

I never really looked at the pattern handle but I see that it has a repair and it's flat-sawn and contains some pith.

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Still no insurance payment from the Post Office.

[planemaker]

High quality joint on the repair. On notice in the 2nd photo what appears to be some uneven rounding to the back of the grip on the non show side. Is the handle beech or apple wood.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Could be either or perhaps maple. The grain is very tight and the density is unremarkable. There doesn't appear to be any finish on the handle.

[planemaker]

Rob. The Rosewood your working with. Does it have a recognizable scent to it. If it does it may help identify its species.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

This one smells like rosewood only when cut. The first had a much stronger smell. The second piece looks very different in grain pattern and depth of color.

[rob streeper]

At least I got the majority of the insurance, just slightly less than a month after the shipment. They did not refund the shipping charge - no wonder the US Postal Service is teetering on the edge of insolvency. Poor service, slow service and bad customer relations.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. How did you go with that new rosewood handle.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

It goes but slowly.

[planemaker]

Hi Rob. The handle should look a treat when completed.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Made some good progress today on this one. I fitted both blades, inletted the handle, set the screws and started profiling. The shorter blade is 9.75" at the toothline with a 2.125" depth of cut at the toe and is 0.015" 1095. The longer blade is 12" at the toothline, 1.5" depth of cut and is 0.012" 1095. Both blades are wearing heavy brass backs and they have been set up to use the same rosewood handle with stainless bushings as usual. I'm thinking of toothing them 15 ppi for the shorter, deeper cutting thicker blade and 17 ppi for the longer, shallower cutting thin blade, or maybe 14/16. I'm also going to include a combo bushing remover/inserter - split nut driver for the customer because he has been so patient.


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[planemaker]

Hi Rob. Looks like your making some excellent progress.

Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Here's a comparison of the model handle and my product. Curves are pretty much perfected and the majority of marks have been addressed.

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I chose to make the horns heavier in cross section due to the friability of the rosewood provided. The total length of the grip is slightly longer but the hand contact area is the same as the pattern handle. The bevels on the cheeks are much less pronounced to accommodate the medallion.

And with the blades. The longer will be 16 ppi and the shorter 15 ppi.

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[planemaker]

Hi Rob. Having limited knowledge on Foley saw plate retoothers. Will the folded hardbacks on these 2 saws have to be removed before you can use the Foley machine. Is there time benefits in toothing the saw plates 1st, then fitting the folded hardbacks.

You may have mentioned this previously, what gauge brass are you using for your folded backs. How deep is the fold on these 2 saws.

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Hi Stewie,

There's no need to remove the backs for toothing. I've modified my setup and techniques somewhat so that I can use the Foley toother for blades as narrow as 20 mm.

These backs are made from 1/8" thick brass. The width of the folded backs from top to bottom is 27mm and the slots are 17mm deep.
I've found that there are people who prefer heavy saws, similar to the people who prefer the relatively heavy Lie Nielsen planes to the lighter Stanley planes. Equipped with the longer blade this saw goes 618 gm., and with the shorter it is 571 gm.

Cheers,
Rob

[planemaker]

Thanks Rob. Sounds an interesting set up you have adopted with the Foley. The extra weight within the hardbacks makes perfect sense to me, and would explain why you have a preference to set the hang angle on your backsaws as such that the directional force is pointed more towards the toe of the tooth line. The slotted brass backs I use are lighter than yours at a common size 1/4 x 3/4". As a result, I tend to favor the directional force more towards the center of the tooth line.

You mention the friability of the Rosewood supplied by the buyer. Does that suggest the Rosewood showed some signs of brittleness during shaping.

regards Stewie;

[rob streeper]

Stewie,

This piece has particularly confused grain and it is extremely hard. While roughing it out on my bandsaw I had several stoppages, despite the fact that the saw has a 1 hp motor, I had a 4 tpi carbide toothed blade (new) mounted it was running at 80hz and it has a 1:23 jack-shaft reduction system. There were a number of blow outs using rasps so I did a lot of the shaping with files. The handle rings a bit when tapped - I hope the customer doesn't knock it around.

Cheers,
Rob

[rob streeper]

It's all over but for shipping. Hopefully it arrives un-damaged.

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The particulars:

Saw with blade 41-1, Mass = 572.0 gm, OAL = 389 mm, toothline = 248 mm, 15 ppi, rake 12o filed rip , set 0.002", blade 0.015" thick 1095, depth of cut 53 mm, back 0.0125 folded brass.

Saw with blade 41-2, Mass = 617.6 gm, OAL = 443 mm, toothline = 305 mm, 16 ppi, rake 12o filed rip, set 0.002", blade 0.012" thick 1095, depth of cut 40 mm, back 0.0125 folded brass.

Handle finish: BLO under satin rubbed amber varnish, see http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=198407 for my preparation.

Both blades use stainless steel bushings to secure them to the handle.

Takedown tool made from the same block of wood that was used to make the handle.

[pedder]

No idea. The customer said it was an antique. If you look closely at the photo you can see impressions of star style lock washers in the recesses. The blade slot is distorted (not shown) but overall the handle is in very good to new condition, other than being a bit dirty.


Looks like a self made Gramercy.

[Sawdust Maker]

Nice pair of saws

sorry to read about USPS problems - looks like it might have been run over by a delivery truck
and I think it's poor that they didn't refund the shipping costs

but it does remind me of a story regarding the transport industry in Australia
Apparently a firm in Adelaide purchased a 2nd hand printing press form a firm in either Sydney or Brisbane and contracted with a certain national carrier to deliver it
Anyway the truck it was on got hit by a train at a level crossing somewhere in NSW. The printing press was destroyed and the firm received it's insurance money.
Months and months later a truck stops at the firm in Adelaide and drops off a pile of twisted scrap metal - the wrecked printing press. The national carrier claims the cost of delivery and points to a clause in small writing on the back of the contract which states that the consignee/consignor is liable for the shipping charges as long as the item shipped is delivered in any state (damaged or otherwise)

[Bushmiller]

The national carrier claims the cost of delivery and points to a clause in small writing on the back of the contract which states that the consignee/consignor is liable for the shipping charges as long as the item shipped is delivered in any state (damaged or otherwise)

The question is of course did this national carrier get away with that? My thinking is that aforementioned, unnamed carrier has an obligation to deliver a consignment in good order. If that does not happen because their driver had a little disagreement with a train he didn't see that would have been the carrier's fault and he would be liable because he didn't fulfill the contract.

If it wasn't the drivers fault and the train crossed three paddocks to get to the truck tootling along at a steady 100 clicks, the carrier has still failed in his contract, but would have rights of recourse against the rasacally train driver or the train driver's company.

I am sure you would be able to tells us that just because a company inserts a clause in small print, it does not allow them to break the law. Surely they failed the fundamental test of delivering the consignment in good order or at the very least in the condition it began the journey.

Having digressed on the postal services, Rob that is a very nice job on those saws. Hats off.

Regards
Paul

[rob streeper]

Nice pair of saws

- looks like it might have been run over by a delivery truck
and I think it's poor that they didn't refund the shipping costs



Thanks. Customer said that the back was visibly bent. When I make these I use a 50t press. 10" backs with the 0.125" brass take about 27t to form. How they managed to bend the back on this saw and not wreck the mail truck is beyond me.

[rob streeper]

Paul,

Just one saw, two blades though. The bushings allow for accurately repeated fitting of each blade, a bit tetchy to perform the swap but if you're at least a little careful it works well.

Cheers,
Rob