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planemaker
6th September 2015, 04:57 PM
Disston never carried an open-handled backsaw in its catalog, with the exception of the "Jackson" brand backsaw in the late 19th century and the "Davis" in the early 20th century. Jackson was a second-line brand with lesser quality in materials and finish than the Disston brand saws. It is shown with an open handle in the 1890 catalog. Later the Jackson saw was made with a closed handle only. Davis was of similar quality and featured an open handle in the 10 and 12 inch lengths.http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/openhandle.html

If we discount Disston's #68 & #70 Dovetail Saws, and the example listed above; its a little puzzling as to why Disston restricted their range of backsaws to closed handles only under their own brand. Provided the handle wood Disston were using was well seasoned; and the forward weight of the saw blade assembly is restricted within reason, weakness within its design makes little sense if you take into account the range of open handle backsaws being offered from u.k saw makers pre 1900.

I am currently working on some 12 inch open handle tenon saws; fitted with 0.020 saw plate; and thought it an interesting topic of discussion.

Stewie;

rob streeper
6th September 2015, 11:28 PM
I could see a number of reasons why Disston made mostly closed-handle saws.

1) Fashion or bias. Perhaps the open handle saws were seen as "English" and therefore were "Un-American" or maybe Americans just didn't like the design.

2) Technology. Perhaps the manufacture of thin high carbon steel was outside of the skill set of the Disston works or maybe making them wasn't worth the trouble.

3) Economics. Perhaps then as today there was more money to be made with bigger saws. A small saw takes as much effort to make as does a big one and it sells for less.

4) Market size. The English open handled saws may have owned the market for dovetail saws and perhaps Disston chose to pursue the much larger demand in construction saw sales.

5) Demand. Electrically powered portable saws were still in the future in the 19th century so every piece of wood that was cut was cut (excepting by axe) on either installed equipment such as a steam or water powered machine or with some kind of hand saw. America was being built at the time and it is possible that the demand for the types of saws used by the construction trades so heavily outweighed the demand from the furniture builders that they weren't worth making for Disston.

6) Maybe the open handle saws just didn't sell.

Bushmiller
7th September 2015, 03:35 AM
I think it would be useful to compare the offerings from the other major US manufacturers. For example, Simonds had a single open handled saw called the Prof.Ball pattern and was, I think, a dovetail saw. I don't know what Atkins offered.

Perhaps it was a style that did not find so much favour in the American market. I would suggest that the open handle, while it functions just as well as the enclosed style, is less robust and not so able to withstand abuse or accidental knocks.

Regards
Paul

planemaker
7th September 2015, 04:18 AM
Its interesting to note the choice of timber predominantly used by early Saw Makers; Apple Wood (USA); European Beech (U.K); Both of these timbers rate high on seasonal wood movement. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/apple/ http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/european-beech/

Stewie;

Bushmiller
7th September 2015, 08:23 AM
Its interesting to note the choice of timber predominantly used by early Saw Makers; Apple Wood (USA); European Beech (U.K); Both of these timbers rate high on seasonal wood movement. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/apple/ http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/european-beech/

Stewie;

Stewie

While the article maintains seasonal movement for Beech, if you read down the replies there is not much agreement on that. In fact one post refers to beech being used for rulers.

I checked Bootle's bible for properties and while it maintains there is significant shrinkage during the drying process there is nothing to support undue movement. Uses listed include Furniture (especially bentwood chairs) veneer, flooring, joinery, tool handles, brush backs, handles, wrest planks for pianos, shoe heels & decorative turnery.

Regards
Paul

planemaker
7th September 2015, 12:52 PM
http://www.musterkiste.com/en/holz/pro/1003_Beech.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/design/resistantmaterials/materialsmaterialsrev1.shtml

planemaker
7th September 2015, 01:13 PM
Quartersawn Beech and Apple Wood would be a suitable approach in saw handle form.

rob streeper
7th September 2015, 02:50 PM
Why apple and beech? No idea. In looking at the links Stewie posted I noticed ash, why not for saw handles?

planemaker
7th September 2015, 06:56 PM
Hi Rob. Nothing wrong with using other types for saw handles. I am just focusing on the 2 primary timbers that were used by saw makers pre 1900, as per the opening thread.

regards Stewie;

planemaker
7th September 2015, 10:45 PM
Sounds like Beech was the primary handle wood used by Disston. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/sawhandle.html

rob streeper
7th September 2015, 11:04 PM
For apple wood is it possible that the use by Disston correlated with the end of the useful life (70 yr.)358916 of the trees sown by John Chapman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed)?

D.W.
11th September 2015, 01:22 PM
Up here near where disston is, every Tom, Dick and Harry had an orchard on their small farm as a matter of economy. there was also an extremely well organized lumber and lumber hauling industry.

Large full-grown apple that's air dried is simply better to work for a handle than anything else, and it's extremely even and smooth. You can rasp against the grain on it with very little damage, which probably correlates to speed in making, especially once power tools came along.

I'm sure beech was cheaper in the end, even if apple was free other than for the hauling and processing, because even large apple trees are winding ill behaved things. I saw a picture once of the apple intake for disston and the logs were nightmarish.

American beech is very nice to work, but not quite up to air dried apple.

AS to why nothing else, I'd imagine it was due to supply. Those were the two nicest woods in wide supply in the US.

I was fortunate enough to get two 11x6x4 billets of dead quartersawn wet apple wood about 6 or 7 year ago. I allowed it to dry and then made a couple of saws out of it. It was spectacular. I haven't seen anything similar to it. I've worked a couple of kiln dried billets since, and while it was visually pretty, it wasn't even remotely close to as nice to work with. It was hard and dead and dry feeling whereas the air dried apple was very waxy feeling and lively.

(also, the apple growing region in central PA is perfect for the fruit itself. In the county where I grew up, there are 23000 acres of orchards, but as most know, the types of trees grafted to these days are little stubs, made to lower the labor in picking. As a kid, I saw the large trees tipped over when an orchard was to be replanted, but we never got any of the wood. Even with the large trees then, it would've been a use 5% of it and burn the other 95% prospect. )

rob streeper
12th September 2015, 11:07 AM
Two years ago we were traveling in Subcarpathia and saw from the autobus window piles of apple tree trunks along the boundaries of some of the orchards. Next time we're back in the region I'm going to try to secure some.