Thicknesser Troubles - Spiral head

[Damienol]

Hi WWF,

I have just finished installing a CTS spiral head in my Carbatec 20" thickie.

Unfortunately the unit now trips the power on startup. The trip occurs about 4 secs after startup and just before it reaches max RPM. Everything sounds perfect so i am assuming I have put it all back together right.

The machine is running on a 10A circuit protected by a 16A c/b.

The machine has run perfectly with the traditional blades for 6 weeks now. I do however need to delay the startup of my dust extractor otherwise the simultaneous startup current of both machines also trips the power.

I have one theory here however I am interested to hear ideas (that have not been influenced by my guess) from WWF before I share.

[twosheds]

Hi Damienol

A quick stab in the dark...... is the new head heavier than the one you replaced?

You may need to modify your power supply to 15amp circuit unless you can install a higher rated circuit breaker in your existing shared 10amp circuit.

Regards
Twosheds

[Acco]

Ok, so the supply line is meant to be on a 15a circuit but let's ignore that for now.

One thing to check for, is that you haven't somehow nicked any of the wires going to the run Capacitor cause that kicks in just as it gets to full rpm

[RoyG]

Is there too much tension on the belt between the motor and the drum ?

RoyG

[chambezio]

Could the bearings have cold grease in them creating drag on the whole assembly?
Why I ask is because I gave my old Jeffwood Thicknesser a "birthday" and pumped in new grease from a new grease gun I had just bought and wanted to try out. With cold weather it takes ever sooooo long to get up to operating speed. Remedy for me, was to disassemble, wash out the grease and repack with less quantity

[Lappa]

If the circuit breaker is the design that has the additional bi metallic strip trigger for prolonged current triggering rather than the singular instantaneous high current tripping type, then if the drum was taking longer to reach its maximum rpm, it could be causing it to trigger (hence the 4 sec time). This is due to the dynamic resistance of the motor rising more slowly.
You stated that the circuit was on the edge anyway ie. Extractor and thickly tripped breaker if turned on simultaneously.
Heavier drum, tighter bearings, higher resistance to turning (air resistance?) could all play a roll presuming nothing went haywire on drum replacement:D

[Yanis]

I would expect that the spiral head would be heaver doe both to the profile of the head and weight of the carbide. However, I still would not expect it to trip a 16A breaker. Maybe a faulty motor cap or faulty breaker and the marginal increase in weight has tipped it over the edge. Also note that the start up current on a motor is much higher than the run current until the start cap is taken out of circuit by the centrifugal switch.

Dare I say, use a 20A breaker? (Pause for storm...)

John

[Damienol]

Hi Damienol

A quick stab in the dark...... is the new head heavier than the one you replaced?

You may need to modify your power supply to 15amp circuit unless you can install a higher rated circuit breaker in your existing shared 10amp circuit.

Regards
Twosheds

This was my first guess however Rob at RDG promises me that the weight difference is negligible.

[Damienol]

Ok, so the supply line is meant to be on a 15a circuit but let's ignore that for now.

One thing to check for, is that you haven't somehow nicked any of the wires going to the run Capacitor cause that kicks in just as it gets to full rpm

The head replacement doesn't go anywhere near any of the electrics

[Kuffy]

I would check to see if the head spins freely without the motor/belt/feed rollers connected. probably a misaligned or overclamped bearing restricting rotation.

[Damienol]

Is there too much tension on the belt between the motor and the drum ?

RoyG
I didnt adjust the belt tension. Simple rolled the belts off and then back on

[Damienol]

Bearings are brand new

[Damienol]

I would expect that the spiral head would be heaver doe both to the profile of the head and weight of the carbide. However, I still would not expect it to trip a 16A breaker. Maybe a faulty motor cap or faulty breaker and the marginal increase in weight has tipped it over the edge. Also note that the start up current on a motor is much higher than the run current until the start cap is taken out of circuit by the centrifugal switch.

Dare I say, use a 20A breaker? (Pause for storm...)

John

I have worked out that a 25A breaker is legal so that will be the next step

[Damienol]

I would check to see if the head spins freely without the motor/belt/feed rollers connected. probably a misaligned or overclamped bearing restricting rotation.


I am not sure this is possible due to the connection to the gear box

[Pearo]

I have worked out that a 25A breaker is legal so that will be the next step

The sparky in me cringes. I have been off the tools for over 15 years now, but reading this type of comment makes me nervous. Its not all about the breaker. Please make sure the wiring is suitable, and the demand on that circuit will not exceed what the wiring is capable of.

[Dengue]

A circuit breaker trips for a reason, usually a fault in the system ( eg wiring fault or motor fault) , or an overload. I would not bother changing the CB until you have found the problem. Something has occurred since you changed cutterheads.

One of the key selling points of a spiral head cutter is that it requires less power than a straight bladed cutter, and that makes sense with the slicing action of the inserts as compared to the frontal cross cut of a straight blade. So something is definitely wrong in your setup, and causing the CB to trip.

Can you turn the cutter freely by hand using the belt ?

As a starting point I would suggest you disconnect the belt and run the motor to see if it trips, indicating possibly a capacitor fault, or a motor winding fault.

As a separate issue, in relation to a 10A wiring and 16A CB, what size motor are you using? ie the rated kW, and the running amps.

[Damienol]

The sparky in me cringes. I have been off the tools for over 15 years now, but reading this type of comment makes me nervous. Its not all about the breaker. Please make sure the wiring is suitable, and the demand on that circuit will not exceed what the wiring is capable of.

no need to cringe. The advice came from a sparky

[Yanis]

I have worked out that a 25A breaker is legal so that will be the next step

In which case I would suggest you replace it with the 25A breaker. Motors are rated at their continuous load so breakers can easily trip on start up where it draws considerably more. However I would still get the capacitors checked out. A faulty cap can trigger the circuit breaker.

[Dengue]

Have to disagree with Yanis here. If the CB and wiring was OK when straight blades were used, no need to change anything, as the power requirement for a spiral cutterhead is much less, provided of course that the rated capacity of the wiring is adequate for running the kW rating of the motor.

[Dengue]

Can you please clarify your setup? Are you running both the thicknesser and the dust collector off the same 10A circuit through a 16A CB?
If so, was this the same setup before you changed the heads, and that worked without any problems?

[Yanis]

Have to disagree with Yanis here. If the CB and wiring was OK when straight blades were used, no need to change anything, as the power requirement for a spiral cutterhead is much less, provided of course that the rated capacity of the wiring is adequate for running the kW rating of the motor.

That may be the case when it is cutting however his issue is on start up. The spiral head may be marginally heavier thus requiring more start torque thus putting a slightly heavier load on the motor which is where it is tripping. If (as I suspect) there is a faulty cap then this may be enough to tip it over the edge. It does sound like it is marginal.

John

[Damienol]

Can you please clarify your setup? Are you running both the thicknesser and the dust collector off the same 10A circuit through a 16A CB?
If so, was this the same setup before you changed the heads, and that worked without any problems?


Hi Dengue

yes I have been running both the thickie and dusty off the same 16A circuit. Normally I start the thickie and the. Fire up the dusty a couple of seconds later. It has been running perfectly for weeks.

since swapping over to the spiral I have not been able to even get to turning the dusty on as the power trips before I get a chance

[DaveTTC]

This was my first guess however Rob at RDG promises me that the weight difference is negligible.
Did you do a physical weight check rather than listen to someone else?

I just put a spiral cutter in my 18v makita planer.

Original cutter

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/25/098b511171d075f290d263c68ac3d196.jpg

Spiral cutter

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/25/113e0d8aa1992bb8073dc71441343aa6.jpg

Loose figures a 50% weight gain

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Damienol]

Did you do a physical weight check rather than listen to someone else?

I just put a spiral cutter in my 18v makita planer.

Original cutter



Spiral

Loose figures a 50% weight gain

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

it was too much work to pull it out and check. Plus at 20kgs roughly i think they may have squished scales like yours ��

When you look at them
side by side it is hard to believe they weigh the dame

[Damienol]

Well problem solved.

i had the breaker upgraded to 25A and now it works a treat.

it actually runs so quietly that i can now hear all the rattles - just a little disconcerting.

Even though RDG says the heads weigh the same I can not think of any other reason as to why I had the problems I had.

Good outcome in the end as I now have a new and bigger C/B protecting the man cave

Thanks for everyones interest and help

[DaveTTC]

Yes they work a treat and nuch quieter. I cant bekieve the difference on my hand held. Such a good cut. I do ponder long term effect as the weight gain is potentially significant in my case.

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Dengue]

I am still a bit concerned about the 2nd issue. You have a thicknesser that won't start with a 16A CB, it needs a 25A CB, yet you are running it on a 10A circuit.

Did your electrician confirm that the wire size on this circuit is rated to carry both your thicknesser and dust collector when he upgraded the CB to the larger 25A rating? And does the rating of the wiring match the new CB rating?

If you are overloading the actual wiring, you are at risk of a switchboard fire. If you doubt me, have a look at this posting :
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=126819&p=1236199#post1236199

[Damienol]

I am still a bit concerned about the 2nd issue. You have a thicknesser that won't start with a 16A CB, it needs a 25A CB, yet you are running it on a 10A circuit.

Did your electrician confirm that the wire size on this circuit is rated to carry both your thicknesser and dust collector when he upgraded the CB to the larger 25A rating? And does the rating of the wiring match the new CB rating?

If you are overloading the actual wiring, you are at risk of a switchboard fire. If you doubt me, have a look at this posting :
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=126819&p=1236199#post1236199

Hey Dengue

It is a dedicated circuit run in 2.5mm 2CE run in conduit buried in the ground pretty much the whole way to the Circuit Board. According to Australian standards the circuit is good for 28A hence the 25A circuit breaker.

The house is over 140 years old. The cabling is pretty new however the exisiting C/B's are considerably older. Hopefully this puts your mind at ease

[Lappa]

Glad the problems solved and it's all up and running:2tsup:

Not to put a damper on things, I was reading an article on Spiral cutters vs blades and it says that the only downside with a spiral head replacement is that it will require more horsepower when planing (American article) because there is more cutter contact with the wood per revolution than with blades. If this is the case, then it will draw more current when actually planing the timber.

Shouldn't make a difference to you since your circuit breaker upgrade.

[Damienol]

Glad the problems solved and it's all up and running:2tsup:

Not to put a damper on things, I was reading an article on Spiral cutters vs blades and it says that the only downside with a spiral head replacement is that it will require more horsepower when planing (American article) because there is more cutter contact with the wood per revolution than with blades. If this is the case, then it will draw more current when actually planing the timber.

Shouldn't make a difference to you since your circuit breaker upgrade.

Thanks Lappa

I was aware of this

Another way to look at is that you cant take as deeper cuts or that you need to make more cuts

Either way the results of the Spiral are worth it

[DaveTTC]

Thanks Lappa

I was aware of this

Another way to look at is that you cant take as deeper cuts or that you need to make more cuts

Either way the results of the Spiral are worth it
I am interested as to how true these results are. Just saying because an 18v makita only has so much power. At full depth with my old blades it wiuld bog down in pine at 70mm wide.

By accident when teating the cutter i had it at full depth on KD Tassie Oak. It was laminated to 70mm. While it slowed it did not stop.

The question would have to be asked that although there is more contact with a spiral cutter if the blades are set up for a shear cut does this compensate for traditional straight blades?

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Lappa]

I am interested as to how true these results are. Just saying because an 18v makita only has so much power. At full depth with my old blades it wiuld bog down in pine at 70mm wide.

By accident when teating the cutter i had it at full depth on KD Tassie Oak. It was laminated to 70mm. While it slowed it did not stop.

The question would have to be asked that although there is more contact with a spiral cutter if the blades are set up for a shear cut does this compensate for traditional straight blades?

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

Wattage ratings on most power tools are the volts times the amps required under a specified load while looking at internal temperatures which must remain within a safe band. If amps are stated as Fla then it is tested under full load.

You can load power tools and draw more current than specified but there will be a rise in internal temperature above what the manufacturer considers safe. This is O/K for short periods.

It's an interesting exercise to measure current on electric motors, under varying conditions, and compare to specs.

[doug3030]

Even though RDG says the heads weigh the same I can not think of any other reason as to why I had the problems I had.

Ok, here's the weight of my cutterhead for my thicknesser upgrade, bought at the TWWS in Melbourne a fortnight ago. see http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=198524 for my retrofit.

Damien, I have weighed my cutterhead, and as it is identical to yours, yours will weigh 9kg too. Since you have removed your old cutterhead already you should hopefully be able to weigh it and post the result so we can all see the difference.


It's an interesting exercise to measure current on electric motors, under varying conditions, and compare to specs.

However finding the instruments to measure wht is happening on a 15 amp circuit can be a challenge. All the plug in meters are for 10 amp only. I thought I found some for 15 amp on ebay but they listed it incorrectly and had to refund my purchase price.

[Damienol]

Hey Doug,

I thought you had a 15" thickie?

Mine is 20". AusPost had the parcel at 20kg. There was minimal packaging included

[doug3030]

yes mine is 15", sorry , I thought yours was 15" too, since the other thread you have been posting in has 15" in the title :?, but who cares, size does not matter :2tsup:

But allowing for weight per inch based on mine and adding a kilo for luck, lets assume yours weighs 13 kg. Can you weigh the old head at all?

Cheers

Doug

EDIT: WTP? you are running a 20" thicky on a 10 amp circuit????? :?:?:? :C :o :no: :no: :no:

[Lappa]

Inductive amps clamp and a lead with the outer covering off the wires is how we do it. Clamp can read up to 700A AC or DC.

[elanjacobs]

One of the key selling points of a spiral head cutter is that it requires less power than a straight bladed cutter
So they say, but the thicknesser and buzzer on Shelix heads at work both sound like they're working harder since the swap so I'll remain unconvinced until someone can show me hard evidence.

[Yanis]

Nice outcome mate. Glad it is sorted.

John

[Peter010956]

Hi, and thanks for the suggestion(other harvey post).
I note in your(harvey) that you refer to THIS POST?? (is that the one I should be looking at?) that you were having issues achieving full RPM with the Helical Cutting head. Is that problem resolved?
There does not appear to be that many machines to be found on the net(my first place to look).
I found the Leda, Carbatec, Sherwood and now the Baileigh Industrial machine.
But that appears to be about it.
Now that I have been spoiled by owning a good quality (Harvey 10") I want the same quality in my Thicknesser.
Regards
Peter