General help required - Long post Lots of questions

[notrot]

Hello all,
I have been lurking for a while soacking up as much information as I can but here goes with some questions.
I have been living in a unit for a number of years and unfortunately my tool collection consits of a hammer, a bent screwdiver and oh thats right a brand new Makita quarter inch router that I bought from pawn shop even though it was new that has nevr been out of the box. (but it lloks nice)
Anyway we are building a house at present and I have dreams of doing finishing off a feew projects and trying my hand at things like, Built in robe using melamine, Under stairs shelving even work staion for computer, built in bookcases, perhaps a cuoboard and small furniture items and the next day I'll... OK only kidding.
So the questions: In regards to be above projetcs
How much use will a novice get out of a table saw?
or will it be possible to get away with a circular saw and straight edge and clamps?
Ive been to Carbatec and saw lots of nice stuff problem is I don't know what I'll need and of course $$$$.
I've read a number of posts about Triton Vs other and I don't know but some of the stuff I've seen at around the $600 mark looks a lot sturdier.
Cross cut or compound mitre saws? What sort of money should I be looking at spending for something that is fairly accurate, not rubbish but not a contractors quality either?
Thicknessers? I've seen some relatively inexpensive ones GMC and Ryobi I think, will they doo a decnet job for the novice?
Brad nailers - again Ive seen some cheap ones, - any suggestions?

I realise that you often get what you pay for but just how much "quality" is required for a fledgeling hobby and basic projects mentioned above?

Finnally, timber types and prices. Admitedly I've only been to bunnings but even their bent twisted pine is not cheap, and suggestions for book cases, worstations desk etc in something other than pine.
I live near inner city Sydney so advise regarding suppliers would be appreciated.

PS I don't expect people to answer all of the above but your 2 cents worth would be greatly apprecitaed.

Thanks in Advance
Paul

[Schtoo]

Table saw is invaluable if you are using solid wood. Sheet stock, only a large tablesaw with long fence rails will be usable. So, if you are chopping up sheets for stuff, use a good circ saw (cast sole plate, good brand) and a homebrew guide.

If you are going to use solid wood, then yes a tablesaw is worth it's weight in gold.

If you get a TS, then you can probably get away without having a mitre saw. Use a sled on the TS or a good mitre guage for compound cuts.

I wouldn't get a Triton myself, but I am sure for many folks it's a good deal. The interesting thing with a Triton is that if you do go that way, and decide that either you want/need a better saw or don't need a saw at all, you can sell it and lose very little cash. So I hear anyway. ;)

Thicknesser? I was going to get one of them cheaper animals, they run about $400 here. For another $300 I can get the equivalent in a Makita with resharpenable blades. Difference is that the Makita will run all day and won't get upset. I have to stuff about 500 lineal feet of wood through it almost as soon as I get it. I doubt a cheapy will last the day, I could be wrong. If I only needed it for the occasional plank or three, then I guess a cheapy would be fine. That's what they are designed for, occasional use, not hogging down full width cuts in oak for a day or two non-stop.

Brad nailers I know nothing about. Brands that are here aren't there and vice-versa.

As much as I hate pine, it's cheap and looks nice enough. Good stuff to cut your teeth on, and if you foul up, then it's not like you blew a bunch of cash. Just gotta realise that what works on pine doesn't work on harder stuff, but you can get away with some things on hardwoods that you can't on pine. First table I made is in pine, it's sitting 5 feet away and it doesn what it's supoosed to, that is, keep dinner off the floor. When I have some spare time, I might whip up something else, but it's doing a good job now and should do it for a lot of years.

Dunno if that helps, but if it does great. :D

[silentC]

Do a bit of a search, this question has been asked a lot. Some people have posted what they consider to be the basic necessities of the job.

I built plenty of stuff like you're talking about with nothing more than a circular saw, mitre box and back saw, set of chisels and screwdrivers, a hammer and an electric drill. All the rest of the tools and machinery came along much later. You don't need a tablesaw or a thicknesser. You don't even need a router. These things just make the job easier and quicker (and for some more enjoyable). There is nothing you can do with these machines that you cannot do with the appropriate hand tool.

[Groggy]

Do a bit of a search, this question has been asked a lot. Some people have posted what they consider to be the basic necessities of the job.

I built plenty of stuff like you're talking about with nothing more than a circular saw, mitre box and back saw, set of chisels and screwdrivers, a hammer and an electric drill. All the rest of the tools and machinery came along much later. You don't need a tablesaw or a thicknesser. You don't even need a router. These things just make the job easier and quicker (and for some more enjoyable). There is nothing you can do with these machines that you cannot do with the appropriate hand tool.Having said that (and all true), I think it should also be pointed out that high end hand tools can cost more than a machine ie, a number 7 LN jointer costs more than a mid-level 6" jointer. A decent collection of planes will soon make the machines look cheap in comparison.

[silentC]

Ah but compare apples with apples, Groggy. What does a high end 8" jointer cost? You don't need to jump straight to a LN #7, when you can start with a flea market Stanley ;)

[Groggy]

Ah but compare apples with apples, Groggy. What does a high end 8" jointer cost? You don't need to jump straight to a LN #7, when you can start with a flea market Stanley ;) In my opinion (opinion - ok) - if you are "starting" it's unlikely you would: know where to go to buy, know what to look for, have the experience to identify a bargain then have the knowledge and skill to correctly fettle the tool for use.

My example used a 6" jointer, as an 8" is clearly the domain of the LN#8 :p. But, jokes aside, given the time and effort involved in chasing a 'bargain', and allowing for hourly rates etc, you can easily clock up $500 in time trying to find a cheap and sad bastard that will still require further work (2-5hours). So, to be able to say "I paid $18 at the market or on e-bay", you should really state the full invested cost. I know guys who have $900 workshops who have invested maybe $50 000 in time to get it.

It depends on a mixture of things in my book:

- do you like hunting for a bargain?
- is it cheaper to just order a machine and work another 5 hours to make up the difference from a hand tool?
- are you a neander or normite by preference?
- do you want speed (this is debatable as it depends on skill)
- is noise a factor (though cutting yourself with a chisel can get fairly noisy)
- do you have the room for large machines?
- do you move often?
- can your house wiring take the machinery?
- etc

This could be a monster thread...

[silentC]

It's hard to know the answers to all those questions when you are just starting out.

I suppose the message I wish to convey is that you can build the types of projects that notrot is talking about with very few tools and even fewer machines. It's not necessary to buy a jointer at all if you buy dressed timber and particle board. I made quite a few cupboards and shelves etc. with the tools I mentioned. I had a couple of handplanes but rarely needed to use them. In fact you may shudder when I tell you that the Stanley #4 which I now loving care for was once used to trim and chamfer fibro weather boards during the construction of an extension to our house in Sydney.

Of course, if you get the bug, you then need to think about the things you have mentioned and then the fun begins. I wouldn't want to see someone go out and buy a heap of machinery to make a few shelves and then, as unlikely as it might seem to us, decide that woodworking is not for them.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Schtoo just about summed it all up.

A table saw will make 'most all the cuts you'll need to start with, along with a hammer and good drill with suitable bits you can build 'most anything. All the other toys just make various tasks easier. Other handy powertools to start with are an orbital sander to save on elbow-grease, a belt sander if you're dealing with rough-dressed (or really bad workmanship :D ) and maybe a router.

Wouldn't bother with a jointer/thicknesser until later in the game; unless you're salvaging timber. Careful selection of dressed timbers from Bunnies or similar will avoid the need. The minor variation in their thickness won't matter until you're capable of more precise construction. Common sense: pick the best and transport it yourself; don't just bulk order for home delivery or you'll end up with what everyone else left from their gleanings.

Wouldn't bother with a bradder either. Instead I'd spend the money on a good selection of basic non-powered :eek: equipment. They make every task sooo much easier and are often overlooked in initial setup. A few examples:


screwdrivers

chisels. At least a 1" flat and a 1/2" dovetailing chisel for cleaning rebates, etc.

a good ruler, preferably marked in both metric & imperial
set of punches: center-, needle-, etc.

clamps
asstd. grits of sandpaper & a sanding block. (there's $$$ to be spent here!)
clamps

carpenters square
clamps

clamps

Oh... and did I mention clamps? Clamps! Sash-clamps, G-clamps, etc. At least a pair of each in several different sizes. eg. from 18" thru to 6' for sash-clamps. You can never have enough clamps! Hand-saws, planes and the like are also nice to have, but like the powertools are probably best left until you find you have a need for them. I'm ignoring essentials like a mallet, scribe etc. 'cos you can build them yourself. A nail in the end of a broom-handle scribes as well as an $80 brass & mirbou Lie-Nielson... :D

With regard to Triton tablesaws, well... think of 'em as a "super-jig" for a circular saw; I think their biggest advantage is their portability. Building a house, you can tote it on-site to do your cuts and then lock it away for security. Also, unless you're already working at a craftsman's level of quality it'll be quite some time before you find their shortcomings. Good value for a novice.

[Groggy]

The purpose of this group, to my mind, is to debate and hopefully educate so that neophytes can rapidly acquire knowledge and learn from others experience.

I don't think we have disagreed at all, I certainly haven't identified anything 'wrong' with what you've said, I've simply tried to add to it.

"In fact you may shudder when I tell you that the Stanley #4 which I now loving care for was once used to trim and chamfer fibro weather boards during the construction of an extension to our house in Sydney."

There's a word for people who abuse tools like this!

To wander off on a philosloppical tangent, consider this. At some stage, and possibly within our lifetime, programmed nanobots will do the work our machines currently do. They will do it quickly, with minimal waste, quietly and with no health risks to us. We will simply draw a design on the computer and provide the raw material.

When we get there, will woodwork continue to be a hobby? Or is the actual creation of the piece only a part of the hobby, and the other activities, sharpening, buying, learning skills etc just as important to us? I think the latter, as CAD/CAMM just doesn't appeal.

So, tying this back to our discussion above, the processes we use to create our pieces seem to be just as important to us and how we derive our enjoyment from our hobby. The mixture of these activities seem to be unique to each woodworker and therefore the discussion cannot be limited to "hand tools" vs "machines".

(I hope I've made sense here)

[MICKYG]

Paul,
It all depends on your skill levels as to what you would require for a workshop or tools to work with. Flea Market items can be quite cheap but you would need to have a basic knowledge as to what you are looking for. Like most hobbies or (obsessions) you can spend many thousands of dollars on gear, but you do need to have a suitable level of skill or putting it another way nouse to make good use of it all.. DONT loose any fingers on the way to your new levels of experience.

You can get some good ideas from this bulletin board. There are many who have built quite a lot of things with minimium of equipment and there are plenty who have produced some very nice items with no more than a few hand tools. Hope you gain a little insight from this post, spend carefully and wisely after you do the research into any thing you may buy.

Regards Mike ;) ;) ;)

[Trav]

Notrot

I started in a similar situation to you, except that I hadn't found this BB when I began. I originally got into woodwork as a house renovation thing, but got more into the fine woodwork (not that my work can be defined as fine) as I developed a few skills.

I've made plenty of bookshelves, an entire deck and three sets of stairs, umpteen small things around the house, a hall table, a breadboard, a few picture frames and I'm about to start on a baby change table for the soon to be MiniTrav.

To do all this I have a triton WC and saw, a dodgy GMC sliding compound mitre saw, a few mujingfang planes, a couple of dodgy bunnings handsaws and screwdrivers, a biscuit joiner, a random orbital sander (cheap GMC job), a good steel ruler and a stack of clamps. I recently added a router and table to that list, but it is certainly not essential.

IMHO, a triton is a good place to start, unless you can see yourself getting right into this and have the space and $$ for a real tablesaw. There are always triton's for sale in the papers etc and they are well worth it. Forget the SCMS as you can do most things with a triton.

A biscuit jointer is great because it allows you to make quick, neat and strong joints very easily. I know mortice and tennons are better, but for my needs, a biscuit joiner is fantastic.

A ROS is great, because sanding by hand takes ages. I usually finish by hand, but use the ROS right up to 400 grit or more.

You don't need a thicknesser straight away - just take your time buying straight DAR (dressed all round) timber. I still survive this way.

Look on e-bay for mujingfang planes. Also search this forum as there is HEAPS of info on them. For $20 they are the best planes available, bar none. A Lie Nielson is better, but is 30 times the price. :eek:

And buy clamps, many many clamps. You only really know how many you need once you run out partway thought a glueup. I ahve 4 quickgrip clamps, 8 sashclamps, and a handful of g and f clamps. I use them all the time.

Hope this is helpful.

Good luck with it all.

Trav

[Cliff Rogers]

Lots of the good stuff is already in here...

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16776

There have been several discussions on Table Saws as well.

[notrot]

A big thank you to all of your replies, I reakon you all have valid points and appreciate the time you guys take to reply to posts like mine.
I have considered the "Hand Tools" vs "Power Tools" debate. My wife reakons all we need is a saw, a hammer and some nails. ( yeah right)
My experiences with a hand saw (albeit with a long time ago) was that I had GREAT difficulty cutting a straight line. And yes I know if I practice it will get better, but frankly given my current level of skill I don't think I'll live long enough to develop the skill.
I have deduced (logically only because I haven't built anything yet) that with certain tools as discussed above, a novice will be able to get a better result, if I take the time to set it up properly, etc etc.
How does it go, "measure once and cut twice" that doesn't sond right but anyway, thanks for the tips I'll keep you all posted on how things go. For the moment the builders are still at it, come to think of it they have some great orange nailing guns, I think they are nuclear powered or something, now I'm sure I can find a use for those. now let me see .....

Regards

Paul

[ian]

Anyway we are building a house at present and I have dreams of doing finishing off a feew projects and trying my hand at things like, Built in robe using melamine, Under stairs shelving even work staion for computer, built in bookcases, perhaps a cuoboard and small furniture items and the next day I'll... OK only kidding.
So the questions: In regards to be above projetcs
How much use will a novice get out of a table saw?not much. In my opinion you have better things to spend your money on
or will it be possible to get away with a circular saw and straight edge and clamps?again this is my opinion, given your list of projects, what you really need is a very good tape, a drawing board, a protractor, and the ability to accurately draft what you want to build. Take your scaled drawings down to Mr Ply and Wood and pay him to cut the melamine or other sheet material to the exact sizes you need. It's a bit like buying a flat pack bookcase from Ikea, but you get to customise the size.
If you really, really must get a saw, again my opinion is get yourself the smaller Festool power saw, saw guide and dust extractor combo.
Ive been to Carbatec and saw lots of nice stuff problem is I don't know what I'll need and of course $$$$.
I've read a number of posts about Triton Vs other and I don't know but some of the stuff I've seen at around the $600 mark looks a lot sturdier.Triton is not a bad place to start, but IMO it's not worth the money if you're planning projets made from MDF, Melamine, chipboard, etc and you can measure accurately because you can buy all the pieces you need cut to the exact size.
Cross cut or compound mitre saws? What sort of money should I be looking at spending for something that is fairly accurate, not rubbish but not a contractors quality either?get a good hand saw and mitre box instead
Thicknessers? I've seen some relatively inexpensive ones GMC and Ryobi I think, will they doo a decnet job for the novice?purchase later. You can buy dressed timber from proper timber merchants. There's one in Artarmon who will dress what he has in stock to your custom dimensions, so if you want a piece 35 x 15 he'll dress the standard size down to this for you. For now spend your money on simplier tools.
Brad nailers - again Ive seen some cheap ones, - any suggestions?don't bother
Finnally, timber types and prices. Admitedly I've only been to bunnings but even their bent twisted pine is not cheap, and suggestions for book cases, worstations desk etc in something other than pine.
I live near inner city Sydney so advise regarding suppliers would be appreciated.I've found bunnies to be OK for the pine panels made by Port Mouldings but pretty much a waste of time for anything else.

This is my suggestion for a basic tool kit

Chisels — 12mm, 19mm, 25mm, 40mm try to stay away from the noname ones
Block plane — Stanley or Record 60½ low angle with adjustable mouth.
Diamond stone — medium and super fine to keep the chisels and plane blade sharp
claw hammer
nail sets
a decent set of electrician's screw drivers — mine have orange handles and are supposedly rated for 1000V. I like them because they're more comfortable to hold.
cordless screw driver — my current favourite is the Bosch IXO it has a lithium battery like those found in digital cameras and comes in a cute biscuit tin
power hammer drill — I think your best bet is to stay away from the cordless drills, till you know what you really want as it's too easy to make an expensive mistake. The "no name" corded ones are dirt cheap and can be treated as disposable. Ultimately you might end up with at least 3 — a high speed model with 6mm chuck for drilling small holes in metal, small variable speed hammer drill with 10mm chuck (I have an AEG which I really like for its balance and low weight), and a powerful 13mm hammer drill (drilling concrete is a snap)
set of drill bits
hand back saw and mitre box
clamps, more clamps and still more clamps
drawing board, scale, graph paper, accurate square, accutate tape, 150mm and 300mm rules
A BENCH to work on

start out with projects you can build from pre-cut sheet goods — one of my early projects was a pair of bookcases using MDF cut to the exact size by Mr Ply and Wood which I spruced up by routing a simple profile in the exposed edge. All joints were concealed so I just used screws — the hardest part was keeping everything square whilst I put it together. (no, I tell a lie the hardest part was painting the damn thing.)


Ian

[derekcohen]

Built in robe using melamine, Under stairs shelving even work staion for computer, built in bookcases, perhaps a cuoboard

Paul

The above items should be built as simply as possible. They will not be works of art when you look back in the years to come. But they will be perfectly serviceable now and provide you with an entry to woodworking.

The joints are likely to be a variation of a butt joint - so using either dowels or biscuits (think GMC) is indicated. A good hand drill, either battery or power, is needed (along with a set of drill bits).

You are going to utilise sheets goods, such as MDF or ply, so a circular saw (with a guide) will be all you need to cut to size. A jig saw (powered) and a japanese hand saw can take care of the fine work.

One does not use a handplane on sheet goods, so get a reasonable random orbit sander (ROS) with grits from 80 - 400.

A few useful accessories include a set of chisels (1/4" - 1"), a sharpening jig (LV of course!) for these (and I would begin with Scary Sharp for now), and a decent set of screw drivers. Oh yes, clamps.

This is a basic set of tools for the above pieces. Of course a tablesaw would make life easier if you had one, but it is not necessary for now. Forget the brad nailer. Forget the thicknesser. You don't need these with sheet goods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[journeyman Mick]

Coming at it from a different angle, and as one who owns one or two or more of almost everything (only a slight exaggeration) I'd take a bit of a different course. If I was renovating and or knocking up bookshelves and built ins from sheet goods I'd have:

A 7" power saw
2.& & 1.8M straight edges
clamps
drill, electric
drill, cordless
electric planer
Random orbital sander
drill
jigsaw
compressor, brad gun and stapler
tape, square, level, pencils
slide compound mitre saw

For quite a few years I fitted out boats and built kitchens with not a lot more. Lately I've mainly been building kitchens and built ins, and while they're not works of art they're to industry standards. Besides all the gear for proccessing the board (panel saw and edgebander) I use minimal tools to assemble: brad gun and stapler, cordless drill (although I do have my morticing machine set up to drill for cup hinges, but you could use a cheap drill press attachment with your electric drill). For installation work I use a level, chalk line, drill, electric planer, cordless drill, jigsaw, hole saws and a hammer.

For most basic furniture out of sheet materials with maybe solid timber edging you'll go a long way with the above. Then as your skills increase, and you dazzle the SWMBO with the money you've saved you can lash out and get all the other goodies.

Mick

[echnidna]

Right on MIck,
As you said its not necessary to have expensive and fancy tools for basic work.
Like you I have lotsa toys nowadays but have made a lot of furniture the same way you have. In fact you could prune your suggested tool list a little and even forget the air tools and just use a hammer & nails.

[journeyman Mick]

You're right of course Bob, a hammer and nails would suffice. But for someone whose skill levels are low the minimal outlay required nowadays for a cheapo compressor and braddder set up is so low that I would reccomend it anyway. Don't have enough clamps or can't get a clamp in it? Shoot a few brads in. Don't have someone handy to hold that shelf and gable square to each other while you try to nail it up? Just hold it with one hand and fix it with brads. Using a hammer is a pretty basic skill, but it's still a skill that must be learnt and it's better learnt whilst throwing a house frame up than while assembling furniture.

Mick

[echnidna]

Agreed

[Trav]

You can score a compressor, air stapler and bradder plus an assortment of other bits from supercheap atuo for about $150 if you hang out for one of their sales (which seem to happen every month or so). Good value IMHO.

Trav

[Dion N]

A card Scaper and burnisher for when you start using real wood (as opposed to sheet products)

[boban]

Mick I think youre spot on except that you forgot the iron, that is the wife's one.

Even with a tablesaw I'd cut all the sheet goods up with the aluminium straight edges and my circular saw (31mm offset). Why couldn't they make it 30mm?

I think you can get by without the SCMS.

Now if you wish to buy a reasonable amount of sheet goods (5plus) PM me and I will arrange a COD delivery from my supplier which works out to be about 40% less than Bunnings. This includes melamine, laminates, plywood and veneered boards.

PS- Veneered boards are very easy to work with as they are more forgiving than melamine.

[Auld Bassoon]

Hi Paul,

I've no doubt that by the time that you get to this post you'll have seen a lot of worthwhile information.

However, if you are totally new to woodworking (and it does rather sound as if you are), then my serious recommendation would be to seek out local to yourself woodies, or a WW club.

When you have found such, pose your questions, e.g. "I want to build a ...", or "I want to renovate an xyz, how should I go about this?", and so on. Don't spend money on tools that you don't yet know what to do with.

It's quite possible to achieve wonders on a limited budget, but you first have to know what you want to construct, and second, to have some idea of how to go about it. No tool, however good or expensive, will do this for you. Skill isn't bought! Nevertheless, basic carpentry skills can be quite readily acquired - just get the right teacher, be it a hobbyist or philanthropist tradie (now there's a challenge!http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif)

Cheers!