Asbestos around the home

[Hector_L]

Hi All,

Was wondering if any body knows how does asbestos fibro looks like, is the fibro balck in colour. Did all fibro conatain asbestos in the 50's 60's.

A frind told me that normally you will find asbestos fibro around the outside of the house and in the bathrooms (wet areas), but you would never find asbestos fibro say in the bedrooms or living room.

I need to know this because the old house I just bought has fibro in the main bedroom and living room, and I (myself) want to replace it with plaster boards. Asbestos removal is very expensive....

Regards,
Hector.

[echnidna]

Asbestos didn't come into use untill about the mid 50's.
The older cement sheet didnt use asbestos.
There is an easy test!
If you can drive a pointed nail through the sheet it is asbestos sheet.
If the sheet cracks its the old (or modern) asbestos free sheet

[Christopha]

Sorry Bob, wrong answer, asbestos was used somewhat earlier, and your test really insn't that simple..... if you can break off a corner or the like and can see ANY fibres ( you may have to use a magnifying glass) then you can bet your bottom dolar that it is asbestos. Before panicking about removal, costs etc. do some research, there is a lot on the net and if you have a sample then there are specialist asbestos companies who can identify it for you.

[silentC]

Just leave it there and plaster over it. It wont hurt anyone unless you disturb it.

[leeton]

I can remember the asbestos in my old shed was stamped on the back, but I suppose you can't see the stamp, just thought I would mention it.

[helga]

WE recently had all of our asbestos removed by licensed asbestos removers. Before we booked them, we very carefully(full PPE) took small samples to the university labs where they confirmed the presence of white asb in walls and white and brown in ceiling( I think, I don't have the results on me). Each test cost $70 but we thought it was worth knowing for sure. We didin't have to handle the stuff at all after that, and we didn't have to worry about the disposal. The remainig frame was also sealed with something incase there were stray fibres around. As you are in Sydney there is no point in recommending our contractors, but it was $4800 for whole house, inside, outside, every type of room, double skin on ceiling.Amd it was 4 days I could spend on working out how to replace it all!!!!!!Don't touch it if you don't have to.

[kiwigeo]

Sitting out here in the Timor Sea on an oil rig built in mid seventies. Every internal wall panel on this tub features at least 2 or 3 big red asbestos warning signs.

[helga]

head butting walls is ruled out for while ing away the time then?

[kiwigeo]

head butting walls is ruled out for while ing away the time then?
Most of the head butting is done during working hours.....5% of time spent doing geology.....rest of the time spent dealing with rig politics and peoples egos.

[helga]

do you think the people who made the asbestos should assist with the disposal of it now it has been proven hazardous, or is that naive crazy talk? Kiwigeo, how far underground is asbestos found in its natural state?Do you know from which era?

[kiwigeo]

do you think the people who made the asbestos should assist with the disposal of it now it has been proven hazardous, or is that naive crazy talk? Kiwigeo, how far underground is asbestos found in its natural state?Do you know from which era?
Interesting questions there Helga.

Do I think the people like James Hardie should help fund with disposal of asbestos products theyve produced and which have been proven to be dangerous? Yes but only because they knew it was dangerous but didnt inform customers and workers of this.

How far underground is asbestos found in its natural state? Okay trying to remember my stage I Geology lectures here. The various minerals that we call asbestos form mainly in a high pressure environment so theyd form at reasonable depth and usually along zones where tectonic plates are colliding or running against each other. A good example would be adjacent to the Alpine Fault in NZ where the Pacific and Asian plates are colliding/sliding against each other. I think there used to be some asbestos mined from the Haast Schist in the South Island of New Zealand.

Age of formation of asbestos minerals? I imagine you could have a wide range of ages here..anything from Paleozoic (or older) through to Tertiary (middle aged to realtively young). The stuff in NZ is probably about Permian through to Cretaceous in age.

As you can see the Geology is a bit rusty...dont do much hard rock geology in this job....mainly looking at wiggly lines and computer screens these days.

[kiwigeo]

FYI there are 6 hydrated silicate minerals that are called asbestos in their fibrous form:

actinolite
tremolite
amosite (brown asbestos)
anthophylite
crocodilite (blue asbestos)

Chrysotile (white asbestos).

The first 5 are all amphiboles and commonly occur in low temp/high pressure metamorphic rocks. They are also the more dangerous forms of asbestos.

Chrysotile because it breaks down more readily within the human body is not considered as dangerous and is still produced in some parts of the world.

[Ian007]

A friend of mine does this asbestos sampling and ID.

One day while at the lab doing an air con job for him I got him to show me how they figure out if its asbestos.

they just look at it for a large sample, or put it under the microscope for air samples.

[echnidna]

Much of hardies asbestos crocodilite (blue asbestos) was mined at wittenoom in WA. It was mined from tunnels and drives. But there are a lot of open air asbestos seams in the rocks and hills of the region. Its very easy to find.

[Ashore]

One of the asbestos companys earliest methods of treating asbestos was to seal it up by painting over it with a lead based paint...http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon6.gif

kiwigeo not only the rigs but also the ships built in the 70's , accomodation ,lagging and joints on steam pipework that we had to sometimes grind off ...
Have lost two mates I sailed with to asbestosis ,like all the other engineers I keep it touch with get checked regularly but have been told this stuff can be dormant for over 25 years, always on the back of your mind,,http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif


Useless infomation for the day

Cockroaches break wind every 15 minutes.

[journeyman Mick]

Sorry Christopha, your answer's wrong too :p The moderns fibrous cement sheets have fibres in them too (the name's a bit of a give away ;) ) They use cellulose fibres now. The rough and ready, rule of the thumb test is to break a small bit of sheeting off and play the flame of a lighter over the exposed bits of fibre that stick out. Cellulose ones will burn, asbestos ones won't. I don't know about what fibres were used prior to asbestos, I assumed (right or wrong) that all the old sheeting contained asbestos.



"As you can see the Geology is a bit rusty...dont do much hard rock geology in this job....mainly looking at wiggly lines and computer screens these days."
Cool! is that where you smash your electric guitar into rocks whilst consuming vast amounts of alcohol and other recreational drugs and surrounded by a bevy of nubile young groupies? :D

Mick

[echnidna]

They used cellulose fibre in the old sheets before asbestos (but obviously a different formulation to the modern stuff ). Those old sheets were so brittle that thay had to be nailed with flat nosed nails. Ordinary pointed nails would crack or shatter the old stuff.

[Barry_White]

Another bit of useless information. There is an old white asbestos mine in Barraba NSW. I think they are still arguing over who is going to clean up all the tailings.

I think it was mostly mined close to the surface.

[outback]

So to summarise.

To ascertain if the product is asbestos.

drive some nails into it to break it up, if you can drive a flat nail in its asbestos, a pointy nail means asbestos, look for fibres if they are there its asbestos, if theyr'e not its asbestos, try and burn it, if it burns its asbestos if not, its positive for asbestos, if its stamped asbestos its asbestos if its not stamped asbestos, its asbestos.

Most importantly, if in doubt treat it like its asbestos.

:D

[kiwigeo]

Interesting to note that there's white asbestos on the space shuttle.

[kiwigeo]

"As you can see the Geology is a bit rusty...dont do much hard rock geology in this job....mainly looking at wiggly lines and computer screens these days."
Cool! is that where you smash your electric guitar into rocks whilst consuming vast amounts of alcohol and other recreational drugs and surrounded by a bevy of nubile young groupies? :D

Mick
Not at 47 years of age Mick. These days if I see anybody flogging the guts out of a guitar I severely reprimand them and then plan how Im going to repair the instrument.

[kiwigeo]

kiwigeo not only the rigs but also the ships built in the 70's , accomodation ,lagging and joints on steam pipework that we had to sometimes grind off ...
Have lost two mates I sailed with to asbestosis ,like all the other engineers I keep it touch with get checked regularly but have been told this stuff can be dormant for over 25 years, always on the back of your mind,,http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif


Hope you keep a clean bill of health there Ashore....one shouldnt have to go through life with something like that lurking in the back of ones mind.

Asbestos just one health hazard out here.....air handling systems on some of these older rigs are not the best. They keep the temperature turned down and spray antiseptic through the system on a regular basis to keep the bug count down.

[knucklehead]

Please be carefull with the nail test. My house is linned inside and out with asbestos. I have removed entire sheets and they are clearly stamped as "James Hardie Asbestos". These have been on the house for about fifty years, and they are brittle. I cannot hammer a nail (sharp or blunt) into the sheets.

Not sure if this is just a batch of sheets that are used on my house. Maybe its 50 plus years of Queensland weather. Then again could it be that the nail test past its use by date.

[Arron]

Hector, I had the same problem with our house a few weeks ago. I took a small sample up to a private lab near Hornsby which did a test - $60 and same day service - shoot me a PM if you need to the name of the company. It turned out there was white asbestos present - not particularly dangerous but better avoided if possible. The guy who did the test recommended not touching it - just putting new wallboards up over it - main thing is not to hit it with dust-making power tools.

Incidently, I rang Workcover and several asbestos labs and all assured me there was no foolproof way to tell if asbestos is present or not without laboratory testing (dont know if that is true - just repeating what I was told).

regards
Arron

[Ashore]

air handling systems on some of these older rigs are not the best. They keep the temperature turned down and spray antiseptic through the system on a regular basis to keep the bug count down.
I guess you just leigonier on


Don't you just love the way one crew member with the flu can share so much with everyone else



Useless infomation for the day


Man who run in front of car get tyred.

[Eastie]

A bit late but I thought I'd post a couple of pics of what I've been finding in a couple of the normal locations. The stuff sitting in front of the pipe and the stuff stuck in behind the retaining wall that's being demolished is asbestos cement sheet. Shoving off-cuts behind retaining walls, under landscaping and the like was fairly common practice many years ago - if only they knew...

[Hector_L]

Thansk all for replying, it seems that I will treat all walls containing asbestos and will hunt around for prices. I did call a place in Winston Hills and they were quoting me arounf $2400 + GST to remove the sheets in two rooms (3550 x3550 by 2650 height) I find this very expensive compared with Helga's price of $4800 for the whole house in and out.

Arron, I will send you a message regarding the Lab, I might as well get the stuff tested first.

Does anyone know of asbestos removal specialist in Sydney?

Regards,
Hector.

[Arron]

if it's white asbestos, you might decide to get rid of it yourself. If you do, you will need to know how to dispose of it. Put it in bags, then wrap up in building plastic which must be at least 200 microns thick and tape it up so it is as near to airtight as possible. Then call 1300 651 116, and book a time to go out to Belrose or Eastern Creek. Cant remember the name of the company, I'm afraid. They will inspect it, and if satified with the way you have wrapped it up and that the building plastic has no holes and meets their 200micron requirement, you can dump it for $37 (or more for larger quantities).

Not suggesting that you do remove it yourself as there are risks involved, but just trying to be helpful if you do. Might also be useful if you have small quantities from time to time.

Arron

[Neo]

Please remember that your local council may test samples for ratepayers and they may even do it for free!!! It's worth a try.

Cheers All

[some_one]

What are the risks of having the false cladding around the home? If any one wants name of company that do testing in Melbourne PM me and I;ll give the name. It cost me 66AUD in cluding JH'sGST, for one sample. I called out these guys to from a company to remove some cladding for me and they too left small parts behind!! they were supposed to do it right! So the bottom bit of the house has no cladding as it had to be removed for restumping but the rest has, what is the hazard? What difference does it make to the house apart from the look? Why was it put up? HUmmmmm:rolleyes:

[Exador]

do you think the people who made the asbestos should assist with the disposal of it now it has been proven hazardous, or is that naive crazy talk? Kiwigeo, how far underground is asbestos found in its natural state?Do you know from which era?

It's all over the ground in its natural state. I worked on the rock sources for the rail line to the East Angeles mine (quite near Marble Bar) and the rock is all full of asbestos. It's no worries at all, as long as the fibres aren't floating around free and getting into lungs. All of our sampling and testing was done with a handy spray bottle of water close by that was kept busy wetting down the material to prevent dust.

[Shedhand]

For the average joe any asbestos in free form is dangerous. White through brown to blue - its just a matter of degree of potential damage to humans.

There were a number of asbestos sheeting products produced in the 50's and 60's marketed under different names. The most common here in Tasmania was called Tasbestos and was produced by the Goliath Cement Company at Railton.

For those who don't know, the two most serious illnesses caused by ingesting asbestos fibres are mesothelioma and asbestosis. Ill effects are usually not evident until 30 to 40 years after exposure. There is no cure for either and both are terminal.

The sheet products are essentially safe in domestic situations provided they are not disturbed. When painted or sealed it poses no threat to health.

Removal is best left to licensed operators. Collex are licensed to remove and dispose of asbestos products.

Generally speaking, council waste transfer stations won't accept asbestos products. However, your local council can advise where designated disposal areas are.

Some councils allow a resident to remove his/her asbestos from the home. Strict guidelines apply.
In m y own case, bylaws allowed me to remove 20 sq metres a day myself. I had to wear a full body protective suit, a respirator with filters designed for asbestos dust protection and the stuff had to be wrapped and taped in 200 micron plastic. It cost me about 300 bucks all up to get rid of it all (my old shed).

Its best to assume that any cement sheet product installed before the mid 1980's contains asbestos of one type or other. I know that JH 'Fibre' cement sheeting was generally available from about 1982 when the asbestos was replaced with cellulose. This was also the time when Wittenoom in WA became a hot topic and led to the epidemic of mesothelioma and asbestosis deaths in this country.

From a personal perspective, whilst I sympathise with those who suffer from the terminal effects of exposure, (my wife's uncle died 3 months after diagnosis) I believe the worst is yet to come. Wittenoom is Australia's Chernobyl. James Hardie should have been forced to set up and fund a specialist asbestos removal company to assist homeowners to remove their products when required. At the very least homeowners should be able to bill the company for the expense of removal and disposal.

Finally, sheeting products are not the only danger in the family home. May older homes have asbestos lagging around plumbing. Any homes which have the older style header tanks for hot water will likely have lagged pipes. Old ovens and wood burners have asbestos piping as a sealant for glass and metal to metal surfaces. For home mechanics, brake pads in older cars contain asbestos which is present in the dust which builds up around the in side of tyre rims.

Be careful, be very careful. :eek:

Sorry to go on about this but I'm a bit of evangilist on the subject. This is a very dangerous and life threatening material and it pi$$es me off no end that James Hardie has been allowed to get away with abrogating its responsibility for a national cleanup of the crap.

Anyway I hope this info is useful. At the end of the day, if in doubt get advice from the local Council, Worksafe office or Collex.

Cheers

[Bluegum]

Our home was built in 1954, internally lined with fibro. I have removed it out of 1 bedroom and found stamp on the back of it Hardies fibrolite. I wrang Hardies and i was fobbed off to WHS. I did how ever have a piece of it tested and found it to be white asbestos. I simply knocked the heads off the nails and removed it as a whole sheet and wet it down in the room before placing it in plastic and wrapping it up. Any residue on the stud I painted over it after vaccuuming the room with a vacumm that had a water reservior and 5 stage hepa filter. The water trapped any particles and the paint sealed anything that may have been left of the studs. Further inspection through our home I have found it starting to break down in our hall way. Till I either remove this or have it removed I will paint over it and leave it till I need to remove it. I did remove the carpet prior to removal of the sheets as I was advised that it would be a waste of time leaving the carpet in place as particles will be trapped in it. :eek: :eek:

[some_one]

I am in agreement with what Shedhand has said, but recently I was listerning to the radio and the speaker made a very good comment that,"I cannot remember the last time someone lost their job in this country when they did something wrong, all most got were golden hand shakes". How true!! So same with JH probably!!:( So the cladding is fine and how do we know that the sheeting is becoming dangerous is there a change in the way the sheet appears or asbestos is inert and stays in same form? Is it posible to render is or is it sensible to render it?:confused:

[Shedhand]

I am in agreement with what Shedhand has said, but recently I was listerning to the radio and the speaker made a very good comment that,"I cannot remember the last time someone lost their job in this country when they did something wrong, all most got were golden hand shakes". How true!! So same with JH probably!!:( So the cladding is fine and how do we know that the sheeting is becoming dangerous is there a change in the way the sheet appears or asbestos is inert and stays in same form? Is it posible to render is or is it sensible to render it?:confused:While the asbestos is wholely contained within the product, ie not broken or flaking, and it has been sealed with something like bondcrete or a good quality sealer undercoat it poses no threat to health according to the experts. Its only when allowed to fall into disrepair (like a lot of old backyard buildings) or when being removed that care needs to be taken.
Cheers

[some_one]

Well the sheeting is fine but a few places have me concerned so I will take photos and get the best advice then!:)

[Shedhand]

Well the sheeting is fine but a few places have me concerned so I will take photos and get the best advice then!:)Good move mate. :)

[martrix]

great thread, lots of excellent information.
Just for example, once the exterior cladding of asbestos has been professionally removed from an entire house, what are the options for re-cladding?
Cement weather boards? Flat cement sheet with a textured render?

[echnidna]

Theres a few more choices,
Baltic pine weatherboards
Cedar weatherboards
Weathertex weatherboards (tempered hardboard)
Brick veneer
Plastic or steel cladding

[Wildman]

Hi All

Just lettin you know that you can get a sample of fibro tested for asbestos for free. I went to Noel Arnold and associates in Box Hill. If you just want them to check it and let you know what it is, the test is free and takes about 5 mins. If you want a full NATA endorsed written report, you get charged for it. here is the content of the email I got from them


Hello Ben,

We do test materials for the presence of asbestos, so we can help you out. With regards to pricing, there are two options:
* First, if the information is purely for yourself, and there won't be other people involved in the work, we can provide this service for free for a single sample.
* Second, if there are to be tradespeople involved in the works (including waste skip hire or waste transfer station/landfill operators), or if you need written confirmation for insurance or legal purposes, we offer a NATA-endorsed sample analysis report. This costs $80 + GST for the first sample. Subsequent samples work out at around $40 each.

A very small portion only is needed for analysis (a piece the size of a 50c piece is sufficient). This should be sampled carefully after wetting down the material, then placed in a kitchen clip-lock plastic bag. If you are providing samples from more than one location, please write the sample location on the bag.

Please drop the samples off in person, or use a courier service to transport them to our office (it is illegal to post dangerous goods in the mail). Our office is open from 0830 - 1700. The address is shown below.

Just for the record, I could not drive any nail in without splitting, there were clearly fibres present and they burnt when held to a match. The report came back asbestos free.

Cheers
Ben
.

[some_one]

My friend you ended the email part just before the most crucial bit .......the address in box hill...hummmm..can you provide the address for us please?:) thanks.:D

[GraemeCook]

I'd like to add a little to Shedhands informative series of posts, noting that we both live in Tassie.

Some ten years ago a neighbour and I became concerned that my shed might be constructed of asbestos, but we did not know for sure.

I rang the Department of Environment for advice and they sent a chap out two days later to inspect the shed. He brought a small microscope with a very bright light and confirmed that it was asbestos sheeting. He offered us four solutions:

* Professional removal,
* DIY wearing spacesuit, etc as detailed by shedhand,
* Paint it all over with accrylic paint, and keep the paint in good condition.
* encase in another cladding. eg cement sheet.

It might be worth checking with your local Dept of Environment to see if they can help or advise.

Cheers

Graeme

[chrisb691]

Hi All,

Was wondering if any body knows how does asbestos fibro looks like, is the fibro balck in colour. Did all fibro conatain asbestos in the 50's 60's.

A frind told me that normally you will find asbestos fibro around the outside of the house and in the bathrooms (wet areas), but you would never find asbestos fibro say in the bedrooms or living room.

I need to know this because the old house I just bought has fibro in the main bedroom and living room, and I (myself) want to replace it with plaster boards. Asbestos removal is very expensive....

Regards,
Hector.

Don't F*** around, a single inhaled fibre can result in asbestosis many years down the track, and that will seriously ruin your day. Get a piece tested, and if it is asbestos get proffessionals in. The money 'saved' by doing it yourself, can prove expensive (quality of life) in the long run.

[soundman]

here's a disturbing fact...

Until recently beer was filtered thru asbestos filters.:eek:

I'm not a beer drinker:D

cheers

[Barry_White]

Here is another disturbing fact, half the water pipes in Sydney were asbestos pipes.

[BobL]

Sometimes there seems to be a large mismatch between what people say you should do and what is actually done and asbestos disposal demonstrates this very nicely

In the Perth Metro Area there are several sites where you can dispose of asbestos. I took my 12 sheets (325kg) to Waste Stream in Kwinana (they charged me $45 a tonne or part thereof). I called them before hand to ask about transport and wrapping etc, They said they didn't care but that local councils might so ask them. I called my council and they said it should be wrapped in plastic and marked asbestos. I duly forked out $30 for a roll of black plastic and wearing my overalls, gloves and expensive dust mask I wrapped and maked the sheets and stuck them in the trusty Mitsubish van.

On my way to Waste Stream I was passed by a car towing a trailer piled high with fraying asbestos sheets, no wrapping nothing. At Waste Stream the whole site was was covered in dust, even the computer keyboards in the office were dusty as.

When I asked for directions to the disposal site they said follow the trucks up the hill and look for all the broken asbestos. Sure enough their hill is one giant hill of building waste including a lot of asbestos. At the top there was an area of about 10 acres of broken asbestos occasionally being covered with a layer of dirt. Two large bulldozers were constantly driving back and forth across the sheets of asbestos to crush them down, less than half were covered in plastic, and there was dust everywhere.

The town of Kwinana is only a km away - I've wondered if the authories know all about this?

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Our whole house (built 1928) is clad in asbestos sheeting. Asbestos sheeting for the external walls, thick corrugated sheeting for the roof. 'Tis all a drab grey colour, looks like cement sheeting except 'tis old, old, old... A new(ish) neighbour has rung the local council several times complaining about it, along with other whinges. (Our pool's too dirty. He doesn't like our trees. The frogs in our pond are too noisy. We leave lights on all night. :rolleyes: )

The council inspector came out, took a look, asked us whether we had been cutting/drilling any of the cladding (no... we're not that stupid) then went next door and told the idjut to stop wasting his time and presented him with a bill. (I suspect the inspector has had enough of the bloke too. :D )

Over the years we've arranged several inspections for various reasons and the answer to date has always been the same: basically, don't do anything. Leave it alone until there's a need... it's fine as it is, but once we start removal it will cost a fortune and will increase health risks for years to come.

Apparently the dust from removal is MUCH higher risk (and more persistent) than leaving it as is.

[some_one]

Was asbestos present inside of homes at all? Hector has a good question about the walls inside the rooms? Sure it was present and still is present in many homes but what were the dangerous areas there? I too am interested to find out if Asbestos was used inside rooms 40 50 years ago? Still waiting for the address in Box HIll of the testing company ?? any help?:)

[journeyman Mick]

From July 1, 2006 any tradesperson or builder removing more than 10M2 of asbestos will need a B class asbestos license. You must prove you are familiar with the practises and procedures for removing asbestos material as per the nationalCode of Practice for the safe removal of Asbestos Don't know what, if any requirements will apply to owner builders, contact the Dept of Industrial Relations for more information. I just threw a flyer from said department in the bin as I'm not interested in doing the course or getting the ticket because my safe procedure WRT asbestos is to leave it alone.:rolleyes:

Mick the asbestophobe

[cals]

Hi All,

Thought i'd chime in with my own 2 cents. I had to remove textured paint from an old housing commission home in Melbourne.

Thought i'd check out whether was asbestos first (as textured paints historically used asbestos).

Rang the local council (Monash) - pretty much useless, no testing service and no info about who might be able to test it for me.
Rang the EPA - no real help
Rang the Worksafe Victoria - no real help.

Followed Wildman's post from earlier in this thread and sent an email to Noel Arnold and Associates in Box Hill. They couldnt have been more helpful. I took a sample of the dried paint in and they tested it for me for free.

Rang me back the same day with the good news that all was ok.

Given the huge number of DIYers in Australia and given the cost medical bills associated with just one case of asbestosis or mesothelioma you'd think the government would provide this sort of service.

Regards,
Cal

PS Thanks for the lead Wildman!:)

[cals]

Was asbestos present inside of homes at all? Hector has a good question about the walls inside the rooms? Sure it was present and still is present in many homes but what were the dangerous areas there? I too am interested to find out if Asbestos was used inside rooms 40 50 years ago? Still waiting for the address in Box HIll of the testing company ?? any help?:)
<table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2" width="95%"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="180">Address:</td><td>Level 3/818 Whitehorse Road,
Box Hill,
VIC, 3128</td></tr> <tr><td width="180">Telephone:</td><td>(03) 9890 8811</td></tr> <tr><td width="180">Fax:</td><td>(03) 9890 8911</td></tr> <tr><td width="180">Email:</td><td>[email protected]</td></tr></tbody></table>

[sco]

Anyone thinking about removing or paying someone to remove asbestos should read this: http://www.nohsc.gov.au/PDF/temp/SafeRemovalCodeofPractice.pdf

Qld govt has some resources here: http://www.dir.qld.gov.au/workplace/subjects/asbestos/index.htm

I recently removed some asbestos sheets from my kitchen and bathroom, prior to 1 July. About 5 partial sheets all up.

Asbestos in the bathroom was marked on the back with a "Tilux" label. Asbestos in the kitchen had nothing.

Thankfully the tilux was secured with plastic stripping around the edges which meant the sheets could easily be removed without any breakage. Before I did it everything was sprayed down with liberally a mix of water and PVA glue and immediately placed on 200 micron plastic and wrapped before removal. Overalls and shoes were bagged and disposed with the sheeting. Ceiling in the bathroom is asbestos - just lined straight over it.

Kitchen had a couple of sheets. Nailed to the wall. Pretty much got it all without breaking though had one piece break a little. Removal was done slowly and with both sides of the sheet damp, so hopefully minimal dust generated if any. After I finished all the timber was sprayed down with PVA glue to secure any remaining dust.

Finally the vinyl on the kitchen floor had a paper backing which I assumed was asbestos. Thankfully it was glued to masonite so was able to cut it with a stanley knife (after spraying down with water) so masonite and vinyl came up together. Again straight into the plastic.

To remove from site I ordered an asbestos bin. It is supplied with plastic and asbestos stickers. Loaded up asbestos, then filled bin with anything else I had to throw (doesn't only have to be asbestos). Filled to 2/3 full then wrapped over the plastic, secured with tape and attached asbestos stickers. Called company to pick it up. Inspected. Gone.

Best thing was I didn't have to worry about taking sheets to the dump and breathing someone else's mistake. Best $200 or so I've spent.

In the end, I'm pretty sure I've been exposed to small amounts of asbestos dust - demolition work at my house years ago by a builder meant cement sheeting was bulldozed and taken away while I wasn't home (highly likely it contained asbestos). I know I broke a piece of that tilux years ago by accident before asbestos was known to average consumers. My dice has been rolled. The fact of the matter is it is in the air already and we're all breathing some amount of it. No reason to be complacent though. I bought the missus a good vacuum with HEPA filters just incase there is any around the house.

BTW quotes to remove were around $25 a square meter. I've heard horror stories about removal and figured if I did it myself I could control how it was done - it is me that lives in the house after it's done not them. Now (post July 1) you can't and nor can you take it to Brisbane city council dumps anymore - so get the pros in.

PS ceiling in kitchen appears to be lined with some sort of grey cardboard like substance about 5mm thick. Anyone know what that is? I've assumed it is bad and have lined over it. Will be using hole from existing light fitting, so no new drilling.

[Shannon]

Just to add another question,

Having just renovated our laundry and cutting out sheeting to fix up old holes and make room for new ones, I was told 1/2 way through by my plumber that the sheeting could contain asbestos.
The house was built in NSW in 1972, any idea when they stopped using asbestos sheeting?? The 40's and 50's have been bandied around above, but I was wondering when they actually stopped using it

[Neo]

G'Day Shannon,
Asbestos was withdrawn in the early 80s (1982 springs to mind but I'm not sure). My house was built in 1980 and is full of it.

Cheers
Pat

[Ausyuppy]

Hi Guys,
Sorry to drag up an older thread, however I think this is probably one of the best Asbestos threads that I have been able to find on the forum.

Due to the changes in the law in particular to QLD (not sure about elsewhere) I decided to do some investigations about licencing. This is mainly due to me just purchasing a house which Im guessing contains asbestos. (I dont move to Brissy until August so I cant check). Using rough calculations I need to remove about 70m2 of fibro.

I contacted the HIA in Cairns about doing the course to attain a B class licence. I can do a 2 - 3 hour course for $195 to then be licenced. I need to contact some companies in Brissy to get an estimate of costs as to whether its cost effective for me to do the course. From some of the figures people have mentioned around the forum, Im thinking I wouldnt even get a trady to turn up for $195 let alone remove all the Asbestos sheeting :)

I dont plan to do this commercially, I just dont want to throw $2000 down the tube when it could be used on building materials instead. If it was a tough removal I would get contractors to do it, but all I am doing is removing sheeting from under the house to close in underneath.

I hope this helps someone who was looking for the same information as me. Also I would like to know of anyones feedback in Brissy as to how much it would cost to have that amount of sheeting removed. If I do the course I would expect my only outgoing costs would be a respirator, disposable overalls, black plastic and a company to supply a skip for asbestos.

Cheers
Steve

[pharmaboy2]

sorry for the lack of brissy data, but in nSW (the nanny state - so rules should be tougher down here) that amount of fibro can fit in a 2 or 3 cubic metre bin. they are about $400 or so to get. They are lined with black plastic - you reasonably carefully put all the sheets in, and thenthe plastioc is covered back over and taped up with duct tape.

look in the yellow pages under rubbish removal. As long as you are carrying and placing it in the bin its not such a big drama. You are talking bonded fibre, so the risk is nil to you as long as you dont start cutting it with a saw or smashing it into a million pieces while under the house or something stupid.

I would have thought that the only reason for a license is if you want to do it commercially. Homeowners are mostly free to do as they please, and if all else fails, ignornace is an excellant defence! :D

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Our place was built around the turn of the century (18-1900's, that is! :wink: ) and is made of asbestos. Asbestos sheet clad external walls, corrugated asbestos for the roof.

A new neighbour complained to the council (he's a whinging back-stabbing bastard who's nice as pie to your face. Can you tell I can't stand him? :rolleyes: ) and got politely told to mind his own business.

The council's of the mind that there's more risk in trying to remove the stuff than there is in leaving it where it is... and Thank God for that, I say! :2tsup:

[Ausyuppy]

I would have thought that the only reason for a license is if you want to do it commercially. Homeowners are mostly free to do as they please, and if all else fails, ignornace is an excellant defence! :D

Hi Pharmaboy, unfortunately due to new laws in QLD, see post #52 above or http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=347614&postcount=52, you will see that there is new regulations in place, in QLD anyhow. Ignorance is a great defence, but Brisbane City Council is making it harder to dispose of Asbestos, so for me it will be easier to do the 3 hour, $195 course.

[Darcy888]

Absolutely correct Ausyuppy. You will get turned away from the tip if you don't have a licence. An asbestos company I got a quote from said people (and cowboy removal companies) are always ringing them to get them to legally dispose of the material they have removed. They happily do it and charge a premium.

[Ausyuppy]

Hi Darcy,
Yep I can imagine there would be some rogue traders out there. In some ways I would feel better if I did it myself. Some of the horror stories I have seen where they leave more of a mess than when they started. At least if I do it, I know I will take my time and avoid creating a dust storm.

When the time comes close, hopefully people on here may be able to recommend a skip company that is reasonably priced and can pickup the sheeting on completion.

Cheers
Steve

[pharmaboy2]

Hi Pharmaboy, unfortunately due to new laws in QLD, see post #52 above or http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=347614&postcount=52, you will see that there is new regulations in place, in QLD anyhow. Ignorance is a great defence, but Brisbane City Council is making it harder to dispose of Asbestos, so for me it will be easier to do the 3 hour, $195 course.

ausyuppy, I just read those posts and the linkies, and the prescribed penalties etc are under workplace health and safety provisions (of the links that worked). From that it is clearly the householders responsibility to ensure that remonalists are licensed for overe 20m2 of bonded asbestos - HOWEVER, I cant see anything in your posts to suggest that your household is a workplace.

If you are in the middle of a building contract, then it is, if you are oaying someone to carry out and remove then it is. IF however, you are going to remove it yourself and place it in a skip with the prescribed regulation plastic etc, then it is still your business by my reading of those statutes.

Do not employ anyone, and you arent a workplace. Ring a skip person who advertises for asbestos removal and they can explain the exact procedure for a private person to dispose of - they do it all the ime (except of course for all the other times whensuspect sheet goes out in the wizbin - the general method these days it seems ;\ )

[ausdesign]

Homeowners doing the removal [not employing anyone & not a workplace etc] come under the health act administered by local gov.
Transportation of the material comes under the EPA
I assume this is aust. wide.

[rodp]

Shannon,
It depends what part of brissy, I'm in a neighbour shire just had to wrap in plastic and tape up. (was advised to break it up a bit to make it easier to handle!!!! ) then take to refuse point where I was charged $340 (I think) a tonne. It was as simple as that did it last Fri / Sat.

[some_one]

I had Cladding removed from our place, the guys left broken pieces which a lady from the companies office came and just picked them up and left. They were supposed to take it all away. Now when I consider the removal of rest of the cladding the problem I will face is adjusting windows frmes and outside plumbing including an AC fitting! How difficult or expensive is it going to get the windows fixed any ideas?:?

[dzcook]

so my old hse was moved in the 30s and i think at that stage was renovated it has all fibro inside ands lots outside stuff inside is hard and heavy as all get out and has a smooth surface one side other side resembles a golf ball and cant nail through it it just cracks need to cut a hole 18in x 12 ins in it for a air duct any suggestions on how ? and i will treat it as asbestos anyway but its the cutting i need info on ? angle grinder or what ?

know some of the outside stuff is newer and is very likely to contain the stuff but dont intend to remove it just keep it painted and not touch it

[pharmaboy2]

making a hole in brittle material will require a hundred or so pilot holes. Dust is reduced by keeping the speed of the drill down and a sharp bit (a pack of a few might be a good idea) - decent dust mask is also a good idea - something denied the blokes down at JH et al factories!

The closer the holes the more guaranteed the result is when tapping out with a hammer.

[Barry_White]

The best way is as Pharmaboy says is to drill a series of small hole around the perimeter of the hole. But you should use a about a 1/4" or 3/8" Tungsten Carbide drill bit sharpened with a single angle on each side of the tip and no hammer action on the drill.

Only leave about an 1/8" between each hole and break it out a bit at a time with a pair of multigrips and break out the little 1/8" bits first and then clean the hole up with the multigrips.

This is how I used to make 8" holes in old fibro houses when I used to install oil heater flues.

One other thing to cut down the dust have a spray bottle of water and spray as you are drilling.

[LotteBum]

For those wanting to know what asbestos removal costs, I have been quoted $4,600 including GST to have asbestos removed (walls & ceiling) from my study, bathroom, laundry, walk in pantry and toilet.

Having done some research, my partner and I have decided to remove it ourselves, but not without proper training. Axiom college in Brisbane do an "Asbestos B Certificate Course" which costs $150 (including licence) and takes 4 hours. It is run every second Wednesday. For more information, visit http://www.axiomcollege.com.au/

We will remove all the internal asbestos ourselves, obviously following safety procedures dilligently, and leave the roof to the guys who are putting the new roof on, so that it gets done in one go.

Hope this helps.

Lotte

[blairis]

Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus ended up being on self removal in Qld?
I was about to remove a quantity greater than 10m2 of bonded asbestos (fibro sheeting) from my house but have just come across these posts about the law changes.
I have read the WHS information but like others cannot clearly determine if it applies to homeowners not performing this work commercially.
The use of the word 'workers' all through the WHS information leads me to think it applies only to commercial removal of asbestos, but I wanted to check incase someone had gotten clarification.

I guess worst case I'll have to spend $150 and do the course.
Never fail to be amazed how over regulated everything continues to get.

Cheers

[soundman]

I think you'll find in QLD the WHS legeslation mostly applies to everyone.

cheers

[manoftalent]

ok first off ...it is illegal to remove asbestos and dispose of it without using the correct measures and sites ....not to mention dangerous ...hopefully these areas are painted surfaces or wallpapered even .....to avoid huge costs I would remove door jams, skirting, and architraves and fit battens to walls to support the plaster, you may decide to use insulation while your at it, in this method you will loose about 30-35mm of space on each wall but its a whole lot cheaper than a full refit ......and pls be safe enough to use a dust mask at all times and wear disposable clothing ....there is no such thing as being too "safe".

[Rodt68]

In regards to the Qld WH&S legislation. If it doesn't mention an exemption there isn't one.

Even if you are doing the job yourself it is classed as a workplace because work is being performed. You don't have to be employing anyone because payment doesn't come into it. To be classed as an employer or not all revolves around the terms "contract of service" and "contract for service" and this isn't restricted by payment only how the work is structured.

Bear in mind if the asbestos is friable (unbonded or can be reduced to powder by hand) the 10m2 rule doesn't apply as it has to be removed by a removalist with an "A" class licence anyway.

It's very hard to interpret the WH&S rules (in Qld anyway) unless you are experienced with it as more often than not it is what it doesn't say rather than what it does that is the key.

Cheers

Rod

[LotteBum]

On that note, my partner did the course and found it very helpful. I've also done some research into the vaccum cleaner required. Nilfisk do one for under $1000 that is approved for Asbestos disposal. Also, the 'PVC solution' to be sprayed onto surrounding areas in order to seal them is just PVC (ie. wood) glue and water...

Go and do the course. It's run at Axiom College once a fortnight - can't go wrong. :2tsup:

[pharmaboy2]

In regards to the Qld WH&S legislation. If it doesn't mention an exemption there isn't one.

Even if you are doing the job yourself it is classed as a workplace because work is being performed. You don't have to be employing anyone because payment doesn't come into it. To be classed as an employer or not all revolves around the terms "contract of service" and "contract for service" and this isn't restricted by payment only how the work is structured.



Rod, an employemeent contract has a number of tests, principaly to determine whether duty of care exists - in the past these tests have become wide and varied because employers have structured things to get around them on occassions. I can categorically gurantee you that a householder picking up a dishcloth in his house does not constitue a workplace.

If it was, then the next person that cuts his finger off with a circular saw while installing a door in his own house would be able to sue himself for damages (or wife ;) ). If the cse of removing asbestos realted product was covered under OH&S law, then ALL activities at a home could be construed on the basis that "work" is anything productive. Employment law comes from within contract law, and so has the basic same tests for a relationship, consideration of some sort been a key measure.

For anybody who is still doubtful, either call your solicitor, or go and visit the chamber magistrate - he is free, and can advise quite succintly on who in your house is covered by laws pertaining to a "workplace"

sorry for the rant.

[journeyman Mick]

Rant mode on:
Under new(ish) legislation in Qld all asbestos removal comes under WH&S legislation, no ifs, buts or "I'm only a householder". Want to remove some asbestos sheeting or lagging/cladding/fencing/flooring/whatever in your own house/on your own property? You need to do a course and get a license so that you will know how to do it without endangering anyone else's life and you can legally get rid of the stuff.
Don't tell me the stuff isn't that bad. I'm currently in hospital in the palliative care area (dying people:( ) and there's a lady at the end of the corridor who's dying of that unpronounceable lung disease you get from having asbestos in your lungs. She never worked with the stuff and they worked out that the way she probably contracted it was from her dad (a chippie) bringing fibres home in his clothes.
I agree, there seems to be more and more legislation ruling our lives everyday, but do you really want to be watching one of your loved ones die a slow death because you didn't take enough precautions when you renovated your house twenty years previous?

End Rant

Mick

[Rodt68]

G'Day Pharmaboy2,

Sorry you disagree but in Qld under the WH&S legislation the home is definately a workplace if asbestos removal or work is being done.

If NSW is different fair enough but I have seen it being enforced and was involved in local government when this particular part was being introduced approx 18 months ago.
My references to an employer etc was in direct reference to the Qld WH&S Act and how it is interpreted there. Volunteers such as Apex etc that perform working bees have to come under the OH&S requirements of the schools, councils or whoever they are performing the service for and in some instances are classed as employees / workers.

Renovators are fair in the frame for these obligations also and if the reno is over $80,000.00 they can even be classed as a Principal Contractor for construction work which has even further obligations for themselves. This is the way it is being enforced at the moment and until it gets changed and an exemption written in I unfortunately can't see it getting any better.

Cheers

Rod

[soundman]

Those in other states and many in QLD who havn't had a good look at our current WHS legeslation probaly won't appreciate the wide ranging ramifications.

In QLD employment law has absolutely no influence on WHS law.
They have comprehensivly bunged up almost every concevable loop hole and removed almost every impediment to prosecution.

And unless it is a very few specific situations being a householder will give you no comfort or protection at all from general duty of care.

Then there is the electrical safety act..... now that IS a piece of work.

As for asbestos specificaly..........no matter the question... unless you are doing precisely what they say....... the answer is NO.
Very sternly, no discussion and in any of 8 popular languages.

Don't mess with the WHS people in QLD.

cheers

[blairis]

Looks like I'll be doing the course then !
Can anyone point me in the right direction for a place in Brisbane that hires out vaccum cleaners suitable for asbestos cleanup ?

Many thanks

[rsser]

Just a by the way: the ban on asbestos use in brake linings came into effect only fairly recently so watch out for dust when working on your own vehicle.

As already posted, the stuff was used in pipes domestically and by public authorities.

The damaging effects of asbestos insulation were noted in US Navy ships from the 30's, and the Egyptians were aware of the health effects of breathing rock dust. End of trivia night.

[LotteBum]

Looks like I'll be doing the course then !
Can anyone point me in the right direction for a place in Brisbane that hires out vaccum cleaners suitable for asbestos cleanup ?

I've spoken to a number of hire companies and none of them do it. I've decided, instead to buy a Nilfisk GD930S2 which costs about $800 including delivery from www.cleanerswarehouse.com (http://www.cleanerswarehouse.com) - based in NSW.

Even after buying that, I'll still have saved a bucket of money!

Hope that helps. :2tsup:

[Rodt68]

It doesn't suprise me that you can't find anyone that hires out the vacuum cleaners. Imagine the liability (morally and financially) to your employees because a DIYer never emptied it out properly before bringing it back.
It sounds way too risky for me.

Rod

[versetcat]

Organised to have floorboards polished in a rental late last year, and the company doing the work had their lad take up the kitchen tiles as part of the deal. I dropped in as the task was being completed to find the keen-as-mustard junior in a cloud of dust, and then noticed that the discarded tile underlay - torn to pieces - was marked "Hardi..". When I called Hardies, they said to assume that it contained asbestos, but the flooring company owner didn't seem at all perturbed when I brought it to his attention. Guess that was because he wasn't around to breathe the sh** in, and I suspect that the junior in question wasn't family.

Now I’m thinking back... two years ago I went into my own backyard to take clothes off the line and saw men in spacesuits dismantling the asbestos shed next door. I'd been given no warning of what was taking place less than 10 feet away. Nor had anyone in the street. Is that considered safe practise?

Having made further enquiries, it seems that old linoleum might also contain asbestos. Probably like the stuff I helped remove from my sister's house in Sydney recently. Dear God... :no:

[rsser]

While it is true that there is no safe level of exposure to the stuff, it may be some consolation to know that there are plenty of workers who've been exposed to it without any health effects.

The latency period is up to 25-30 years however. I'm one of those waiting and watching.

[celeste]

Hi all

I'm having some 6m of asbestos fence removed and replaced at the reno, as its all broken and a privacy screen added to the back fence. I hired the proper tradie etc. He was fully aware etc.

Had a phone call from him yesturday afternoon (he turned up to do the job without letting me know - so I did not warn the neighbours etc) The nieghbour at the back, yelling and screaming etc about the privacy screen. she's not happy Jan!!:oo: I had asked and was told it's fine - I am paying for it all - fences are only 1500 high, no privacy.

He told me they will be back today at 7.30am to finish, so I hopped down there to check why the neighbours not happy etc. To find the trady pulling out the old fence etc. Now where's all the safety gear he is supposed to be wearing???:oo: :? Oh in the truck he's says:oo:

Go figure - I am sure by the conversation I had with him that he is fully aware of the dangers, but chose to ignore it. He gave me the impression that its all to hard.

Note, the neighbours problem was the size of the supports on her side of the fence - no concern what so ever regarding the asbestos fence being dismantled and that her kids are running around the back yard - 5 feet away???

I solved the support problem - by having the trady shorten them on her side. I told her it would be a good idea if she kept her kids inside until he is finished, and I left, I wasn't hanging around. I won't be back until monday when the dust has settled. Tho he had pulled it all out with out chipping or breaking.

Celeste

[pharmaboy2]

G'Day Pharmaboy2,

Sorry you disagree but in Qld under the WH&S legislation the home is definately a workplace if asbestos removal or work is being done.

If NSW is different fair enough but I have seen it being enforced and was involved in local government when this particular part was being introduced approx 18 months ago.
My references to an employer etc was in direct reference to the Qld WH&S Act and how it is interpreted there. Volunteers such as Apex etc that perform working bees have to come under the OH&S requirements of the schools, councils or whoever they are performing the service for and in some instances are classed as employees / workers.

Renovators are fair in the frame for these obligations also and if the reno is over $80,000.00 they can even be classed as a Principal Contractor for construction work which has even further obligations for themselves. This is the way it is being enforced at the moment and until it gets changed and an exemption written in I unfortunately can't see it getting any better.

Cheers

Rod

hi Rod and Mic - Simply amazed that workplace laws are used instead of hazardous materials, and for QLD to have stricter laws would have to be a first in any area!

For people in qld with smaller amounts, found this.

http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/workplace/subjects/asbestos/removal/bonded/index.htm

"
The removal of less than 10m² of bonded asbestos does not require a certificate. However it can only be performed by a competent person.
A competent person is a person who possesses adequate qualifications, such as suitable training and sufficient knowledge, experience or skill, to perform a specific task safely. "



I know this has been mentioned back somewhere else in the thread, but the typical use of the word "competent" is legal speak for, the the prosecution has to prove its case, the defence doesnt have to - so while doing a course will possibly give you protection from action under the legislation even if you stuff up - a job done with regard to the guidelines for under 10m2, is fine as well - ie without a license. A license would be categorically specified otherwise.

Thus reading the guidelines for removal, and been able to answer any inspector - re thickness of plastic, not cutting, bonded, low wind conditions etc etc (is respirator required?) makes yopu easily able to stand up and say you are competent - took all care etc (for under 10m of bonded only) - competent in the eyes of a reasonable man so to speak - might be a bit tough to defend if you went at it with a sledgy the tossed it out a second storey window into the plastic lines skip!

IMO if the govt were serious about it as a health issue, they would provide testing for a nominal fee, and also take small amounts at a similar nominal cost (given the amount that disapears in wheelie bins due to zealous regs.)

cheers

[journeyman Mick]

...................and for QLD to have stricter laws would have to be a first in any area!.............

By the sounds of some of the building and renovating horror stories I've heard around here I think our laws and regulations for licensing of contractors in the building industry is far stricter than most other states.

Mick

[celeste]

By the sounds of some of the building and renovating horror stories I've heard around here I think our laws and regulations for licensing of contractors in the building industry is far stricter than most other states.

Mick

Hi all

I do not think it is a matter of laws/regulations - It's how do you police them!!!

Should I tell someone that the fencing fellow didn't protect him self? :oo:

Non of the neighbours are bothered, I do not know how long they were living with the broken fence, it has probably been shedding fibers for a while now.:oo: Should some one have been told that the asbestos fence was falling apart and shedding fibers? and that the lousy landlord (not me old owner) won't fix it?

It all starts getting rather complicated.


Celeste

[Rodt68]

G'Day Celeste,

Remember though that if he was not releasing any fibres into the air you don't have to wear any PPE etc as it is breathing the fibres in that gives you the problems.

I had a contractor once that couldn't pull it out by hand once and decided to use an angle grinder while holding his shirt over his mouth for protection.:doh:

He definately was reported to the authority and had the book thrown at him.

G'Day Pharmaboy,

The Qld legislation also says that if you are performing work on or removing ACM (Asbestos Containing Material) you have to comply with the national "Asbestos Management Code" and "Asbestos Removal Code" respectively. There is no limit on the amount for this and so it is regardless of whether you need the certificate or not.

Good luck to all the renovators out there who want to work on it.

The good thing though is that these documents are freely available through WHSQ website.

Sound like a safety guy don't I? :;

Cheers

Rod