Safety frustration at the mens shed

[BobL]

On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
- using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
- using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
- using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
- fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
- not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?

[crowie]

What about posting some of the very gory signs that TAFE used to have....fingers cut off, hair ripped from the scalp, eye operations to remove objects, file tangs dug into hands, etc, etc.....

[rwbuild]

Contact work cover and ask them to send an inspector around and tell him to go to town on them and threaten to shut it down if they don't comply or better still, shut it down untill they have done an accredited safety course, its their welfare your looking after. you can also get people who have been disabled as a result of industrial malpractice to visit the shed, works a treat

[Master Splinter]

There's the "Please think of others" approach:

Tell them "If someone gets injured, and they were not wearing/taking proper safety precautions (regardless of if it would have prevented injury or not), we may not be able to afford the increase in insurance premiums, meaning we have to reduce hours."

There are government departments in Canberra that have banned using the stairs to go between floors as the cost of fall insurance was getting too much.

Or the "Our way or the highway" approach:

One infringement, you are banned from the machines till you re-do the induction, including signing a document acknowledging that you have received safety training.

On sight of a second infringement, no warning will be given and all power circuits will be immediately shut off until you dismount your work and leave the machine, inconveniencing everyone else. To get machine privilege back, you have to do the safety training yet again.

Three infringements, they forfeit their power tool privileges in the shed. Hand tools only.

[BobL]

Some good ideas there guys. Thanks


Contact work cover and ask them to send an inspector around and tell him to go to town on them and threaten to shut it down if they don't comply or better still, shut it down untill they have done an accredited safety course, its their welfare your looking after. you can also get people who have been disabled as a result of industrial malpractice to visit the shed, works a treat

No one is employed at the Shed so we are not subject to work cover rules.
However we are required to run a safe shed by our insurance but they won't send out any inspectors and will only react to after the fact.

[rwbuild]

It doesn't matter if they are employed or not, when push comes to shove, the mens shed is responsible, money doesn't replace the loss of sight, fingers, etc. Believe me, if an accident happens, the insurance company will call work cover and heads will roll

[mark david]

On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
- using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
- using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
- using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
- fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
- not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?

Bob,sooner or later someone will lose a finger or an eye or potentially much worse and that will get their attention !
I am sure you could source some gruesome photos showing people who have similar bad habits with a bad outcome in the workshop that the members might like to see.
Anyone not complying to the Shed safety rules should be supspended or banned as they are not only putting themselves at risk of serious injury but also other memebers too.

[BobL]

Our very detailed advice is that as we are not an employer and pay no workers comp insurance Work Cover will not come.
We have been through all this with the insurer and our local Council who own the building.
The Council did send one of their OHS people to provide suggestions to improve safety of the physical infrastructure but they have no authority over practices.
The insurance covers supervisors provided appropriate actions are taken and the members sign a form to say they have received safety training and will operate in a safe manner.
I have no doubt that the insurance company will try and wheedle their way out of anything that that happens - that is why I was looking for ideas to improve the situation.
However, I am just a volunteer and I have no authority and this accompanied by a bunch of other stuff is making me feel like I should just walk away from the whole shebang.

[rwbuild]

As they say you can't put brains in statues and they do live amongst us.

[Pac man]

One shed that I am aware of has the photo of a members facial injuries from a kick back accident taped to the table saw fence.

[derekcohen]

On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
- using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
- using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
- using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
- fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
- not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?

Hi Bob

The message needs to create an instant understanding of the potential danger. Verbal warnings and oral lectures get lost and forgotten in the excitement of the moment. Written warnings and signs do not get read, especially if they involve more that two words!

The best method to send the information is visual: photos of the outcomes (a hand cut off) and the odd common icon (such as a Stop sign) followed by a photo or brief pictorial (photo demonstration) of the correct method. Make sure there are plenty of push sticks to hand!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[KBs PensNmore]

However, I am just a volunteer and I have no authority and this accompanied by a bunch of other stuff is making me feel like I should just walk away from the whole shebang.

Hi Bob,
In your opening statement, you quoted that "On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the Mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees".
As a "supervisor", you have the authority, so it's up to you to do what is necessary to maintain a healthy work environment.
Initially I would go up to the individual, ask them to switch the machine off, then ask if they know what they are doing wrong? If they say "no, they don't know" remind them politely, if it happens again, suggest that they do the "Safety" part of the induction again.
A record of competencies should be kept, any reminders should be noted, alongside the name, so that other "supervisors" are made aware of problems.
If there is no record of competencies, one should be instigated, this should be brought up at a Committee meeting, also set in motion that ALL supervisors, be made aware of any problems such as this, as it's easier to organise now before it becomes "this is the way we've always done it"
I supervise the workshop at the Day Centre, where I volunteer, and this is what I do. I know it sounds a bit Draconian, but better to be this way and have a Community Shed than not have one.
Regards
Kryn

[Master Splinter]

... the members sign a form to say they have received safety training and will operate in a safe manner.

Then they've breached their undertaking. Privileges revoked, as no-one wants to be picking fingertips out of the shavings bin. Just shut the machines off when they arrive. Even if you are a volunteer, you are still entitled to work somewhere without too much risk of getting splattered in blood.

[Mobyturns]

No one is employed at the Shed so we are not subject to work cover rules.

Bob, When I looked into this back in about 2007 things were still muddy, at least now Workcover has given some guidance on what is a "PCBU" or a "volunteer association." Most people have the mistaken impression that Workplace Health & Safety does not apply to not for profits including volunteer associations. Workplace Health & Safety Act does & it doesn't apply to "Volunteer Associations" depending upon various factors especially if the organization employs a "worker." If the organization pays a "worker", say to conduct beginners classes or similar, then the act applies to all in the shed/organization.

The Workplace Health & Safety Act imposes duties upon various persons including a "a person conducting a business or undertaking. (PCBU)" Those duty holders must discharge their duties iaw the act & regs.

https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/laws-and-compliance/workplace-health-and-safety-laws/specific-obligations/non-profit-organisations-and-volunteers - similar in other states

The best advice is to comply with the Workplace Health & Safety Act - as it establishes a culture of assessing hazards and addressing risk.

As a volunteer officer I'm not sure that I would stake my welfare upon the outcome of a court case and the potential interpretation that the "volunteer association" was in fact an "undertaking" for the purposes of the act.

The duties basically are to provide and maintain,

a work environment without risks to health and safety
safe plant and structures
safe systems of work
the safe use, handling, storage and transport of plant, structures and substances
adequate facilities for the welfare at work of workers in carrying out work for the business or undertaking, including ensuring access to those facilities
information, training, instruction or supervision that is necessary to protect all persons from risks to their health and safety arising from work carried out as part of the conduct of the business or undertaking
and monitor the health of workers and the conditions at the workplace to prevent illness or injury of workers arising from the conduct of the business or undertaking.


The safe systems of work and safe plant - should be paramount in any Mens Shed.

All volunteer offices should ask the question - does the association employ any "workers."

The only way you will control and eliminate unsafe behavior is through a system of training and monitoring compliance and some form of exclusion if a person does not comply, but that needs a committee with a backbone.

[Evanism]

Interesting. You can't get people to protect themselves. They think the nanny state, the bureaucracy and others will help them.

Tell them NO.

NO work cover
NO help when injured
NO compensation
NO coming back
NO help

Cameras. The cameras will record your stupidity and it will, as the cops say, be used against you.

It is time our society accepted that these potential Darwinian Award winners are simply one activity away from pruning themselves off the tree.

Protecting them has given them a false sense of safety. Strip their entitlement. Remove the reward for stupidity.

Gruesome photos. Missing fingers. Torn off scalps. Missing eyes. Show them and tell them that not one cent is protecting them against this.

Not One Cent.

[Avery]

When I was involved in a Men's Shed, we all wore name badges. The badges had a wide, coloured, very visible stripe across the top. Different colours indicated levels of expertise - especially with machinery. Bright orange indicated an experienced and trained person who had the authority, and ability to instruct others and to call a halt to anything that was not right. This meant that the supervision was coming from "the floor" rather than being imposed from the top.

Working with older men that are sometimes very experienced and very set in their ways (often bad ways) means that you need to do a lot of "encouraging" rather than "enforcing". Older men can be difficult to work with - I should know. Just ask my wife.

[FenceFurniture]

..... this accompanied by a bunch of other stuff is making me feel like I should just walk away from the whole shebang.I joined a Shed for a while in 2014, and did not renew for this year for the same reasons (and a couple of others). The OHS was a joke, and came from the very top down.

Dust extraction was woeful throughout the shed.
Insanely dangerous practices undertaken by the Captain using a sliding table saw (cutting ten 5mm slats all at once - they were flapping up and down over the blade, with nobody tailing out).
The same Captain not using Ear Defenders whilst using a router - reckons he wants to hear what's going on behind him :doh: (for a while anyway, until he's deaf)

Face masks? Wot dat?



Last Monday I dropped in to see my old classmates from last year (a non-Shed course being run at the Shed). Table saw blade now as blunt as a butter knife, dust extraction now disconnected from it. A (fairly senior) member decided to do several rip cuts in Cedar which caused the whole shed to fill with smoke. This ridiculously soft timber was causing a 5hp saw (with at least a 12" blade) to bog down when ripping 60mm thickness.

Obviously nothing has changed re OHS. When this comes from the top down then I would say that there is nil hope of changing it, even a little bit.

It'll drive you nuts Bob. If you do decide to walk away you should tell them why.

[BobL]

It'll drive you nuts Bob. If you do decide to walk away you should tell them why.

It is getting that way, once I finish the dust extraction setup I will seriously be considering my continuing involvement.

[chambezio]

Bob I can sympathise with your situation. I worked for a white board cabinet maker for 16 years. Eight of those years I was Foreman for some periods to 12 employees and 5 of them were apprentices in varying stages of their time. I found it extremely frustrating to make sure that safety was being exercised as well as "best procedure" to be done.

This continual frustration coupled with a boss who just wanted results and didn't "want to know" manifested into me with Major/Cronic Depression. I had to give it all away, and that was over 15 years ago.

The problems with the blokes was never a "war" but niggley things all the time. I am thankful we never had anything but minor injuries to contend with because to way things are with Insurance Companies I could see myself in court because I was the immediate Supervisor and responsible.

People have suggested I join a Men's Shed to "rehabilitate" and to socialise more. All I can visualise me in the same situation I was in when I was working. No thanks

[RoyG]

On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
- using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
- using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
- using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
- fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
- not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?


BobL,

You are not alone .... When you ask around, you'll find plenty of people who have walked away from Men's Sheds, Woodworking Clubs, and Woodturning Clubs, and for the same sorts of safety reasons that you've encountered. I walked away from a Woodworking Club a few years ago because the unsafe work habits scared the heck out of me, and no one was interested in doing anything to eradicate the unsafe work practices. The event that ultimately made me walk away from that woodworking club, and never return, was when I was hit between the shoulder blades with a dinner plate sized piece of wood that had broken loose from a faceplate on a wood lathe. The club subsequently disbanded about six months later.

The situation regarding "Work Cover", and the application of workplace health & safety Legislation and Regulations in Clubs and Associations, is very confusing, and unfortunately there are almost as many variations to the confusing situation, as there are states and territories and Australia, as each state or territory has their own Worker's Compensation scheme, and each state has their own Legislation and Regulations regarding workplace health and safety, and their applicability (or not) to Clubs and Associations. A Woodturning Club's Workshop in one state may be deemed to be a "workplace" and in another state the Men's Shed Workshop may not be a "workplace", and then there are states where the legal standing is just plane unclear.

A member of the Woodworking Club that I used to be a member of, and who is also a Solicitor, advised myself and the club, that in Queensland, the situation was so unclear regarding Workplace Health and Safety in organisations such as Woodworking Clubs, that it would probably take a few court cases to test the legislation and to clarify responsibility and authority, and to force the Government to change the legislation to make the situation clear.

The main concern that was raised by the Solicitor was, that the person who is the Workshop Supervisor (or whatever name you apply to that role in your organisation) in the workshop, may be held by a Court to be ultimately responsible in the event of the death or injury of a person working under your supervision in that workshop, and the organisation's Managing Committee Members may also be held responsible.

The Woodworking (or Woodturning) Club (or Men's Shed) Committee may believe that they have insurance that indemnifies the Committee Members, Supervisors, and Members, but if an enquiry (e.g. a Coroner's Inquest) into an accident deems that the failure to follow safe procedures was the cause of the accident, then the insurance company may walk away, leaving the Committee Members and the Supervisors very exposed. Do you really want to risk the loss of your home and comfortable retirement ?

As a Volunteer Supervisor at that Men's Shed, you may be held responsible in the event of a death or injury. I think that maybe you should talk to the top level management at Men's Shed Australia (or whatever they are called) to get clarification regarding what your personal liability would/could be in the event that one of these jokers that you are supervising does something stupid and seriously injures or kill himself or someone else, under your supervision. They should also be able to advise regarding strategies for ensuring that senior workers in Men's Sheds come to understand and comply with safety requirements.

ALSO: There was a suggestion in one of the posts above to install video cameras in the workshop to record these idiots doing the wrong thing, and then to use that video to take disciplinary action against that member. If you go ahead with that suggestion - REMEMBER, that those same video recordings will almost certainly be taken by the Police in the event of an accident, they will be used in court as evidence ...... and as a result those videos could also be used in court against the supervisor and committee members, as evidence of the Supervisor and/or Committee failing to do their job adequately, in the court's view.

Hope that info helps BobL. If nothing else, talk to the top Management at Men's Sheds Australia, or whatever they're called. Surely other Men's Sheds must have previously encountered the same problems with Senior Members, and have worked out a strategy for successfully managing these Senior Members.

Regards,

ROyG

[Lappa]

Had an interesting Information session on WHS Due Diligence last week by a lawyer whose been a prosecutor, defence lawyer and adviser in WHS matters - made us sit up and make notes re safe workplaces and who is ultimately responsible and who will be pursued in the case of an accident. Bottom clenching stuff:oo:

Apart from that, the WHS Act has the following diagram under the section on volunteers;

365567

All said and done though, I would certainly be clamping down on the safety aspect, or if you can't get any results, resign as a supervisor. You shouldn't have to be put under constant pressure re safety under any circumstances, let alone as a volunteer.

[Christos]

......However, I am just a volunteer and I have no authority .....

I disagree with what you have said here as a person we have the ability to speak to people. You do not need any authority or permission to voice your concerns. The most anyone can do is to tell you to go away which you are currently contemplating.

The fact is no one likes to be told what to do, we have enough rules in our lives.

I once had a friend come over to my house to use the Triton saw. I gave him instruction on what he needs to do and watched him start using the saw. I could see an possible issue in terms of what he was doing. I stopped the saw and advised him of a possible issue. He did not agree with my observation or advise, so I let him continue with what he was doing knowing that there could be a possible hospital visit to emergency.

After I walked away he changed to what I suggested and commented later that it was easier. This friend is around my age and more mechanical minded. It just took a few minutes for him to think about what I said so that he could modify the cuts he was doing.

What I find is that it comes back to how you approach people and what relationship you have with them.

[chambezio]

Christos, what you are saying about "how you approach people" is quite valid and I do agree....but organisations like we a speaking of will have "an element" of "he doesn't know what he is talking about" or "I've been doing it this way all my life" or the character that will not comply just because he doesn't want to.

[Mobyturns]

BobL,


The situation regarding "Work Cover", and the application of workplace health & safety Legislation and Regulations in Clubs and Associations, is very confusing, .... A Woodturning Club's Workshop in one state may be deemed to be a "workplace" and in another state the Men's Shed Workshop may not be a "workplace", and then there are states where the legal standing is just plane unclear.

A member of the Woodworking Club that I used to be a member of, and who is also a Solicitor, advised myself and the club, that in Queensland, the situation was so unclear regarding Workplace Health and Safety in organisations such as Woodworking Clubs, that it would probably take a few court cases to test the legislation and to clarify responsibility and authority, and to force the Government to change the legislation to make the situation clear.

The main concern that was raised by the Solicitor was, that the person who is the Workshop Supervisor (or whatever name you apply to that role in your organisation) in the workshop, may be held by a Court to be ultimately responsible in the event of the death or injury of a person working under your supervision in that workshop, and the organisation's Managing Committee Members may also be held responsible.

The Woodworking (or Woodturning) Club (or Men's Shed) Committee may believe that they have insurance that indemnifies the Committee Members, Supervisors, and Members, but if an enquiry (e.g. a Coroner's Inquest) into an accident deems that the failure to follow safe procedures was the cause of the accident, then the insurance company may walk away, leaving the Committee Members and the Supervisors very exposed. Do you really want to risk the loss of your home and comfortable retirement ?

As a Volunteer Supervisor at that Men's Shed, you may be held responsible in the event of a death or injury. .

install video cameras in the workshop to record these idiots doing the wrong thing, ...... that those same video recordings will almost certainly be taken by the Police in the event of an accident, they will be used in court as evidence ...... and as a result those videos could also be used in court against the supervisor and committee members, as evidence of the Supervisor and/or Committee failing to do their job adequately, in the court's view.

Regards,

ROyG

I wholeheartedly agree with RoyG's comments, it is still unclear! I did a phenomenal amount of work to address these issues as Secretary of the Townsville wood turning club. I worked with several others from a couple of the more enlightened clubs in Queensland and a legal academic, who wishes to remain nameless. We were all of the same opinion - it is unclear and we had no intention of becoming a legal test case! In the end I walked away from the club because the committee would not address serious safety concerns or ban some persistent offender for what most competent turners would deem to be "dangerous activity."

Irrespective of the Workplace Health & Safety acts requirements or wheter a men's shed or club workshop is a volunteer association or is a work place (for the purposes of the WH&SA) all volunteer officers have a common law duty of care to others, including members, visitors etc. to provide safe plant - i.e. buildings, equipment etc.

Videoing workshop behaviour is a two edged sword - it will work only IF the committee has the spine to say sorry you are too unsafe to use the equipment! If the volunteer committee and workshop supervisors tolerate unsafe behaviour - they will most likely be deemed to NOT be exercising their duties as a "worker" or their common law duty of care to another, which leaves them open to potential prosecution or civil claims and the club has provided irrefutable evidence on video.

If you want to read something scary - http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/179775/cif-maitland-m-20130412.pdf then http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/club-fined-over-gymnasts-death/story-e6frfku0-1225953967373 (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/townsville-gym-club-found-guilty-in-teenage-gymnasts-death/story-e6freoof-1225933463417) & http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/Documents/TableOffice/TabledPapers/2010/5310T3307.pdf

Volunteer associations have already been prosecuted for failing to meet their obligations and duties under the legislation. It also pays to be very careful or at least mindful in what you record and say to investigators as the last link indicates.

To be honest if a volunteer is attempting to improve safety and is seen as a trouble maker or a maverick then it is time to walk away as you will not get the support you require to protect yourself from potential prosecution if things do go pear shaped.

[BobL]

Good discussion folks. Thanks for the input.

Christos, there is a bit of a difference between a mens shed and your own shed.
In my shed it's also my rules do there are no probs.

Anyway I have expressed my concerns in detail in writing to the Shed committee, and also indicated if nothing is done within a reasonable time I will suspend my involvement with shed activities.
Hopefully with my concerns in writing it might act as a wake up call, and I may have sort of covered my behind for a short period but I have few qualms about leaving.

[FenceFurniture]

Hopefully with my concerns in writing it might act as a wake up call, and I may have sort of covered my behind for a short period but I have few qualms about leaving.What are you like at holding your breath?

[Chris Parks]

We had a policy of notification of any incident that seemed to work. If an incident occurred a written detailed explanation of the incident had to be signed by everyone who worked there. Supervision of grown men who think they know it all is a road to frustration and is guaranteed to bring strong thoughts of suicide to the fore. We are all the same and we all think the other bloke is the problem, funny that.

[Handyjack]

As others have said, sometimes people have habits, not necessarily safe habits. At other times things are done without the full thought process.
As a user, and that includes the others present, you would have 'a duty of care'. It might be a matter of saying put safety glasses on so a loose wire doesn't go in your eye. Perhaps it would be better that eye protection is compulsory when machines are in use for all. If other unsafe things are seen, a quiet word of explanation with the operator might be required.
At the start of your next day of supervision, a reminder to 'Think Safety' with the participators so they can see their family and carry their projects home might be necessary.

Work safe and have a Happy Christmas.

(BobL, I appreciate your posts on these forums.)

[ian]

On Fridays I am supposed to supervise/coordinate the mens shed and we generally get about 15-20 attendees.

We have a full safety induction, safety notices and signs, safety features in the newsletter, reminders etc.

Here is a list of potentially unsafe activities I noted today.
- using a wire wheel on a bench grinder with just regular eyeglasses
- using a jointer on small stock with no push sticks.
- using a screw driver as a push stick on a table saw
- fiddling around with stock under an RAS with the arm fully extended and the blade running
- not an activity but a donation from a member - a half dozen files with the the ends ground for wood turning.

I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?
Welcome to the "go to gaol" position. It's a barrel of fun isn't it? NOT.

At my local men's shed the supervisors meet regularly to discuss and agree on OH&S procedures and what restrictions might apply to particular members. This way, all supervisors "are on the same page" -- don't you just hate management speech -- when it comes to dealing with members who flout the safe work procedures.
At the initial meetings, the key point that had to be got across to the other supervisors is that the shed is not anyone's personal garage or sole trader's worksite, it's effectively a factory. In a worse case event, the supervisor will be held personally liable. And it won't necessarily be Workcover who comes hounding. The injured (or dead) member's family is just as likely to sue for damages alleging negligence on the part of the supervisor on duty. Even if a coroner finds that you personally had taken all reasonable precautions, I can assure you that the experience is not a pleasant one. And if the shed's insurer decides that the breaching of safe work practices was so blatant and persistent, they could very well cancel the shed's insurance policy.


Just for starters, given the behaviours you describe, a ratio of 15 to 20 shedders to one supervisor is IMO not reasonable. By accepting the task you are sticking your neck out.


As to what to do.
If all your shed's supervisors are not prepared to act as one in respect to safe work methods, and how breaches of safe work procedures are to be dealt with, your best (and safest) option is decline to be a supervisor.
Gory posters and written warnings and turning the power to a machine off are all completely ineffectual if those things only occur on the Fridays that Bob L is supervising.
It has to be one set of rules that are enforced every day of the week by every supervisor.
But the rules and procedures need to recognize that the primary reason Men's sheds are supported is the social interaction among members. To that end, my local shed has a "thongs are OK" section. It's the kitchen, provided the member is not cooking.

It took a month or two to sort everything out, but at my local shed, the worst offenders in respect to ignoring the "rules" -- including the supervisor who persistently removed machine guards -- were asked not to return.

[Chesand]

Good discussion folks. Thanks for the input.

Anyway I have expressed my concerns in detail in writing to the Shed committee, and also indicated if nothing is done within a reasonable time I will suspend my involvement with shed activities.
Hopefully with my concerns in writing it might act as a wake up call, and I may have sort of covered my behind for a short period but I have few qualms about leaving.

I would be putting a definite time limit on my "reasonable time" as everyone has a different view of what is a "reasonable time".

I have been reading this thread with interest as a new mens shed has just been opened nearby. I have not become involved as yet as I have other things on my plate anyway. Also I wanted to let it settle as I knew that I would probably be co-opted as a facilitator if I fronted up early in the piece.

[Evanism]

Surely, in the vastness and breadth of men's sheds, community groups, forges, metal works, jousting tourneys down to knitting clubs this must have been covered.

Does not the national body (if they exist) for such volunteer activities have an opinion that can be relied upon? Surely some old QC or legal mind has posited these questions?

It seems bluntly unreal that some part time dude (our own famous BobL) can be held personally responsible for the actions of some monkey who decides that a tablesaw can be safely operated by using a screw driver as a push stick?

Really?

Would a court, been shown just how staggeringly stupid and utterly insane such an action was in the first place, backed up by the absolutely inevitable violent kinetic event that follows of said screw driver meeting a rapidly rotating blade would find someone ELSE responsible? What judge would say "this man should have been told NOT to put his hand UNDER a spinning drop saw blade?"

Surely, if a man/woman of 60 or 70 years old (I'm generalising for dramatics) NEEDS to be told such things, then they will never learn? If it hasn't been learned after a full lifetimes experience, then surely they never will? Do we really need to take responsibility for a 65 year old as if they are a mere child?

We are not talking subtleties here. This is not some complex abstract thing - its the users own hands, face, fingers and eyes.

Perhaps 20 letters to various large clubs would sort it out? Find out directly?

[BobL]

Just for starters, given the behaviours you describe, a ratio of 15 to 20 shedders to one supervisor is IMO not reasonable. By accepting the task you are sticking your neck out.
There is also at least one "assistant supervisor" ( usually the main shed coordinator) or a substitute, present at every session.
Mostly there are and additional 1 or 2 other members present who act as supervisors on other days.
Only one person is the daily designated supervisor and that's me on Fridays and I don't go on any other day as I can rarely get much work done there and I am more productive in my own shed..


If all your shed's supervisors are not prepared to act as one in respect to safe work methods, and how breaches of safe work procedures are to be dealt with, your best (and safest) option is decline to be a supervisor.
That's part of the problem, we have a lack of experienced supervisors because some experienced members don't want to supervise.
There is no accepted safe working procedure - see below.


Gory posters and written warnings and turning the power to a machine off are all completely ineffectual if those things only occur on the Fridays that Bob L is supervising.
Poor OHS practices seem to be occurring on a regular basis - I have seen them happening on other days when I just pop in for a visit. In fact things used to be a even worse but then got better and now I see it slipping again.


It has to be one set of rules that are enforced every day of the week by every supervisor.
Agreed and a major problem is the rules for use of machinery are far from clear.
Instructions were provided verbally during the induction process but there was too much verbal info provided at the induction for the members to remember it all.
I suggested SOPs for all machinery be made available before the new shed opened and we stick by these.
This is not a big deal as AMSA provide these for most machines.
This was voted against by the committee as too dracomian!
A few months ago someone tried to cut some HSS with the metal cutting BS so now SOPs are back on the agenda but that was some 3 months ago and still nothing has happened.

I could go on but that is enough.

[FenceFurniture]

This was voted against by the committee as too draconian! Well that will give you a fair idea of what you're up against. I can promise you that it's lonely being alone in these political matters. Hell, you know that from your career. Save your energy for us Bob! :D



I am more productive in my own shed.. Yairs, I have wondered about this. When you first said you were involved in the local Shed (maybe a year ago), I wondered "what for?" The man has his own excellent recently extended and refurbished shed, that has what appears to be a very high level of functionality for a workshop of its type and size.

So I figured you were basically giving your experience and knowledge to them, rather than seeking out a place to go and do stuff.

Another reason (in fact the main reason) that I did not renew my membership was that there was almost nil that I could do in the local shed that I couldn't do with better equipment in my own (small as it is). If you like working with

blunt,
very old and well used,
low end in the first place,
usually donated rather than sent to the tip,
or otherwise vastly inferior tools that are a part of a system that you haven't organised yourself,

then membership may have some benefits. Maybe the local shed here is different, but the tools available are shockers in the main.

O'course many go for the social aspect.

[BobL]

blunt,
very old and well used,
low end in the first place,
usually donated rather than sent to the tip,
or otherwise vastly inferior tools that are a part of a system that you haven't organised yourself,

then membership may have some benefits. Maybe the local shed here is different, but the tools available are shockers in the main.
O'course many go for the social aspect.

That pretty well sums it up.
There are blokes there with a lot of knowledge that are worth listening to but it's no more than what you can extract from this site and that's not why I went.

[Don Burch]

I have spent most of my working life in big industry. Big industry has big policies and procedures. It is just a way of life. When not at work, out shopping etc, I find myself looking away from most commercial and residential construction sites. A totally different standard all together.
It really comes down to what you can live with. If the need for safety and the need for the social engagement have the same priority you are going to make yourself sick and maybe cause some injury to yourself.
You have choices, but now that you have drawn a line in the sand, the choice is obvious.
I am a team of one in my workshop, it isn't always great working alone, but the politics are a breeze [emoji3]
It is great to help others, but always be kind to yourself.
Enjoy your woodworking.
Don

[Ari2]

Bob,
As Molly Meldrum would have said, "do yourself a favour" and walk away from 'the shed'. You will sleep better and no doubt enjoy your woodwork more.
All the best

[Mobyturns]

The unfortunate result in all of this is that clubs that will not toe the line with basic safety rules and safe operating procedures are doomed to stay in the same rut as they constantly loose members with the skills & knowledge to help the club or volunteer association. The clubs that do draw the line on unsafe behavior, and promote training seem to prosper.

Members who are prepared to step up and be workshop supervisors etc often feel that they are placed in a no win situation by the risky behavior of other members and the lack of support from the committee. Even if they step aside the risk is still there, but now they have indicated they too are prepared to accept the risky behavior of others by not doing anything about it. Should the worst happen they know that they will probably be held to account for what they did not do ( stop the risky behavior), and that the errant member most likely will not be held to account for their unsafe behavior. :?

[Mobyturns]

What national body? Mens Shed's do have a peak body to represent them but to my knowledge there is no national representation or co-ordination for wood working or wood turning clubs. Closest thing is probably the Council of Woodworking Clubs which runs a group Public Liability insurance policy on behalf of member clubs.


What I find curious about AMSA is the statement "The organisation now has over 930 Men’s Sheds representing an estimated 150,000 individuals and employs 5 full time employees." Now this begs the question, because AMSA employs staff is it and each individual Mens Shed a "volunteer association" or an "undertaking" a PCBU?

The manual is very helpful - "AMSA highly recommends that Men‟s Sheds who are seeking specific information and advice on Men‟s Shed health and safety matters do so by contacting their particular State Regulatory/Statutory bodies."

Some of the answers are here, http://www.nswmensshed.org/SiteFiles/nswmensshed2012org/Final_OH&S_Paper_for_Sheds_(2).pdf & Resource kit - Safe Work Australia (http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/swa/model-whs-laws/guidance/volunteers/pages/resource-kit) Volunteer ‘officers’ and their duties under the model Work Health and Safety Act - Legislative Fact Sheet Series - Safe Work Australia (http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/swa/about/publications/pages/volunteer%E2%80%98officers%E2%80%99andtheirdutiesfactsheet)

"Can volunteer officers be prosecutedunder the WHS Act? Volunteer officers have a duty to exercise due diligence under the WHS Act. A volunteer officer is expected to comply with that duty. A volunteer officer cannot however, be prosecuted for failing to comply with that duty (see section 34(1) WHS Act). This immunity from prosecution is designed to ensure voluntary participation at an officer level is not discouraged. A volunteer officer can however, be prosecuted in their capacity as a ‘worker’ if they fail to meet their duties as a ‘worker’."

[artme]

I decided not to join the Mens Shed here because of safety issues.

I spent many hours as a teacher in a Special School, along with our OH&S officer, drawing up risk assessments.
Believe me when I say that the NEED to do this brought everything into really sharp focus and made us think of
issues that we had previously not even considered.

Even at the local woodwork club safety is not approached as it should be. It is a vast improvement on the Mens
Shed but there is still an attitude that "she'll be right". Its OK for an ex tradie to not use a push stick ""because he
knows what he's doing!"

Think I will start making some noises.

[P.W.H.]

Scary stuff, BobL - just about every one of those incidents would've given me a severe case of the dire rear.
Literally.

Personally, this is what I'd've done there:
Look around to make sure nobody is engaged in anything that would
endanger them if the machine suddenly stops.
Walk to the switchboard and hit the main switch.
Watch their faces derail when the machines stop.
Gather everybody around the culprit and start a brain storming session about
a) what they did wrong
b) what could've happened to them AND others hit by missiles as a result of
what/how they did things.

Group dynamics are a powerful motivating force. As an educational psychologist I
was involved in group dynamics, team building and teacher training for years
before I came to NZ back in the 80s.

Appealing to reason or rules is just so often futile. Too many idiots carry around convictions of their own invulnerability,
"what was good enough for my grandpa is good enough for me", "rules are for other people because they are stupid
but don't apply to me, because I know better/ because I've done it like this for years".

That's the funny thing Evanism: they do not rely on the nanny state to bail them out while they act stupid: they rail
against the nanny state enforcing stupid rules and taking away their freedom if you try to make them behave safely
-- how many people do you see who will not put on their seatbelt in the car? They all have reasons like that.
Of course they come squealing about needing help once the excrement has hit the air reticulation device -- but before, they
will resent it if anyone tries to make them behave in a reasoned fashion. And they are just too dumb to actually use what
little brains they were handed. They build their house on a floodplain, they build their house on a steep slope of sandy
soil over clay .... and froth at the mouth and get red in the face when you tell them that that's a bad idea. Then try to sue
the council for letting them, when it all turns to custard.

Peer pressure is one thing that can work there in your communal workshop.
If nothing else, the other guys not wanting to get their power turned off yet again will maybe get someone walking over
and having a word.

Use the damned main switch. Be prepared to be called a Nazi.

Also, what someone else said (sorry about the missing attribution): families. Idiots often have idiot families. So when said
idiot cuts off their arm, or their head, you can assume a high degree of likelyhood that the idiot's family will come screaming
looking for other people to blame. Because 'our Wally' would never do something stupid. You won't be a happy person for
years if you were nominally in charge. (insert story about how former best friend's methhead son's pitbull was shot because
it was always roaming and yours truly got blamed)

You've just pretty much effectively dissuaded me from wanting to join (for social reasons) the men's shed in the town we're
moving to as soon as the farm is sold . {shudders} You'd really expect people to have more sense! I often think about 85%
of the population stood behind the door when good sense was handed out.

(( standard disclaimer: all i.m.h.o and y.m.m.v., naturally))

And, oh, BobL, you've just shown me why a RAS can be such a dangerous machine..... {le sigh}

[GraemeCook]

"Can volunteer officers be prosecutedunder the WHS Act? Volunteer officers have a duty to exercise due diligence under the WHS Act. A volunteer officer is expected to comply with that duty. A volunteer officer cannot however, be prosecuted for failing to comply with that duty (see section 34(1) WHS Act). This immunity from prosecution is designed to ensure voluntary participation at an officer level is not discouraged. A volunteer officer can however, be prosecuted in their capacity as a ‘worker’ if they fail to meet their duties as a ‘worker’."

Quite correct, Mobyturns, but that is less than half the story.

A volunteer can still be sued for negilence under common law. Which is worse, a $100 fine from WorkCover, a $1,000,000 damages claim, or successfully defending an action and being left with a $100,000+ legal bill.

Life ain't easy or fair!

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

In the posts so far quite a lot has been said about workplace safety law, and very little about common law. This is the so-called judge made law that is vastly more extensive than statute laws. Perhaps a simple annacdote will illustrate the point.

In a different town in a different life I worked as an accountant and we had a client who ran a fairly large panel beating business - lots of sanding of lots of very obnoxious substances. At massive expense the client replaced most of the very good sanding tools with Festool/Protool tools - both electric and air - on account of their much better dust capture. He basically said that the costs of being sued were so high that he could not afford not to improve the dust collection.

He quoted many many actual cases that had got to court and made the following points:

The employer almost always lost; the courts almost always protect the victim.
The victim doing something stupid is not a defence. "You employed a stupid person."
With each case decided, the judges are progressively raising the standards.
We have to plan for what the law is likely to be in five years time, not what it is now.


Graeme

[GraemeCook]

I'm quite a bit younger than most members, and I was not a tradie so don't have that credibility, so it's not that easy for me to convince the culprits to do the right thing.
Does anyone have any ideas about how to get their attention about this?

Good Morning Bob

I waited until I could run this thread past a solicitor mate before I responded.

His first reaction was "This is fascinating." - he is a lawyer! He then complimented RoyG (post 20), MobyTurns (post 24) and Ian (post 29) for the acuity of their posts. He reinforced how ambiguous the legal situation could be.

Part of our discussion went like this:
ME: If there is a serious injury who is liable?
LAWYER Whoever is successfully sued.
ME Who would you sue?
LAWYER The one with the most money.

Incorporporated associations.
He said that, becuase of the powerful machinery involved and the risks of accidents then mens sheds were especially risky and should be formally incorporated to protect the officers and the members. The Incorporated Associations legislation essentially gives clubs limited liability, similar to that of a company.

Unincorporated Associations
Most small clubs ar not formally incorporated and do not have any separate legal existance apart from the members. The members are then effectively partners in the club. So who can get sued when something nasty happens?

Whoever was there, plus
the committee members, plus
all other members.

Remember, the members each own a share in the hammer that a recalcitrant member wielded to whack another member over the head. And their personal liability is in no way limited.

He repeatedly repeated that the law is extremely ill-defined and imprecise in this area.

I suspect that I have further muddied the waters.


Fair Winds

Graeme

[Mobyturns]

Good Morning Bob

I waited until I could run this thread past a solicitor mate before I responded.

His first reaction was "This is fascinating." - he is a lawyer! He then complimented RoyG (post 20), MobyTurns (post 24) and Ian (post 29) for the acuity of their posts. He reinforced how ambiguous the legal situation could be.

Part of our discussion went like this:
ME: If there is a serious injury who is liable?
LAWYER Whoever is successfully sued.
ME Who would you sue?
LAWYER The one with the most money.

Incorporporated associations.
He said that, becuase of the powerful machinery involved and the risks of accidents then mens sheds were especially risky and should be formally incorporated to protect the officers and the members. The Incorporated Associations legislation essentially gives clubs limited liability, similar to that of a company.

Unincorporated Associations
Most small clubs ar not formally incorporated and do not have any separate legal existance apart from the members. The members are then effectively partners in the club. So who can get sued when something nasty happens?

Whoever was there, plus
the committee members, plus
all other members.

Remember, the members each own a share in the hammer that a recalcitrant member wielded to whack another member over the head. And their personal liability is in no way limited.

He repeatedly repeated that the law is extremely ill-defined and imprecise in this area.

I suspect that I have further muddied the waters.


Fair Winds

Graeme

Graeme,

I can't thank you enough for this post.

Like you I have sought advice from friends, acquaintances and academics in the legal profession, who mind you are also sticking their neck out to provide the advice pro bono.

I have attended a few workshops run by various organizations including the local council on managing risk for volunteer associations, mostly sporting bodies. Sports law has a body of case law already established to set precedent, but the situation is not so clear for associations (incorporated or unincorporated) that permit members to use "inherently dangerous" machinery.

In a legal sense - the warning that the machinery is "inherently dangerous" and the known fact that many users of that machinery are inexperienced or do not fully understand the hazards & risk associated with the tasks, implies a much higher standard of responsibility or "duty of care" from the supervisors and committee to provide a safe 'workplace' and to train and control the behavior of users of the facility. Not having a nominated workshop supervisor only complicates matters. The outcomes of many civil cases defy "common sense" but that is our judicial system.

ME Who would you sue? LAWYER The one with the most money. Is very true as many public liability, & professional liability (PL) claims will show. Sue the one with the most PL cover. As a long standing committee member of a professional association I have facilitated CPD events about managing professional risk, professional & public liability, reducing risk to workers etc and how to manage insurance premiums - don't have a claim!

The personal stress in defending even a successful defence of a claim takes its toll on very strong people. I have seen several instances and heard of many others of professional people who have almost lost business & personal assets because they were too nice to pull people / staff into line! Only the skills and tenacity of an aggressive and specialized legal defence team has protected their assets.

[Evanism]

Based on this information, you would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE to volunteer in ANY capacity in an organisation.

Somebody could choke on a biscuit and you'd be sued. Even more reason to withdraw further, if not completely, from all forms of dealing with the public.

[alexm1]

This post has become very one sided. I have not seen comment re the potential good that the men's shed organization does for its many members. As our society becomes more litigious we see more organizations having to close because they cannot afford the risk of being sued. The lawyers comments reflect the way that society has become, sue the one with the most money!
Sad that a lot of comment is framed in the negative, it would be good to get back to basics, tell the offending member what they are doing wrong and tell them to stop. If they are not able to change or stop for whatever reason do not let them use the equipment. I have found that explaining to people what is required usually works, if not take the next step, but don't run off to a lawyer seeking a solution.
I do not belong to a men's shed or any other organization, I find there are too many bush lawyers trying to cruel it for the majority who are often seeking nothing more than social interaction with others who are like minded.

[BobL]

This post has become very one sided. I have not seen comment re the potential good that the men's shed organization does for its many members. As our society becomes more litigious we see more organizations having to close because they cannot afford the risk of being sued. The lawyers comments reflect the way that society has become, sue the one with the most money!
Sad that a lot of comment is framed in the negative, it would be good to get back to basics, tell the offending member what they are doing wrong and tell them to stop. If they are not able to change or stop for whatever reason do not let them use the equipment. I have found that explaining to people what is required usually works . . . .

Thanks for this comment.

I did not post my concerns seeking legally related opinions but ways of convincing Shedders to act more responsibly.

In terms of legal opinions we have been provided with WAAAAAY more than the opinions provided in this thread. We have had opinion by; members of the Shed (some of which are very experienced legal people - we have one member who was a senior Magistrate, he does nothing at the shed other than chase up case law and provides legal opinions on anything we or others ask him about), AMSA, WAMSA, the Insurers, the Council that owns the building, the Senior Citizens people who we are incorporated under, neighbours, various mates, family, and a couple of blokes down at the park where we walk our dogs.

I submitted my concerns to the Shed committee in writing, and at the final gathering of the shed for the Xmas party just before Xmas, several of the committee came up to me and agreed with my concerns and said they would take this up at the first committee meeting of 2016. The shed is closed until after Australia Day and the first committee meeting for the year will be held then. Lets see what happens.

[A Duke]

Hi,
Do not under estimate the 'secret society of dog walkers', we are omnipotent.
:)
Regards

[ian]

This post has become very one sided. I have not seen comment re the potential good that the men's shed organization does for its many members. As our society becomes more litigious we see more organizations having to close because they cannot afford the risk of being sued. The lawyers comments reflect the way that society has become, sue the one with the most money!Alex, I'm not sure that our society is becoming more litigious.

On the whole though, I think we are becoming less and less prepared to be responsible for our own actions -- which leads to a culture of "I was done wrong". Which in turn leads to "victims" and their families seeking "revenge" against the person who "did them wrong".
Read the daily papers, rarely is a gaol sentence long enough.

The same attitude extends to civil matters. A catastrophic event in a Men's shed will be treated no different.
After the health system has, hopefully, patched up the injured person, the risk remains that the injured party (or a member of their family) will seek to avenge the injury by going whoever they wish to hold responsible for grandad's early demise or loss of a limb which means he can't cuddle the infant great-grand urchin. Given that for a retiree in their 70s or 80s the economic loss will be minimal -- though if the injury prevents grandma and granddad providing child care 5 days per week, then the "loss" might run to $150 per day per grand urchin -- the motivator will be revenge not a money reward.


Yes, I'm a little scarred as I've seen the legal system go the bridge designer because the construction contractor only put a barrier around an access point and didn't add a cover to the hole, through which a labourer fell to their death. The argument went that if the designer had been doing their job, they would have either
1. produced a design that didn't require an access point in the deck, or
2. would have specified to the nth degree how the access point should be constructed and protected.



Sad that a lot of comment is framed in the negative, it would be good to get back to basics, tell the offending member what they are doing wrong and tell them to stop. If they are not able to change or stop for whatever reason do not let them use the equipment. I have found that explaining to people what is required usually works, if not take the next step, but don't run off to a lawyer seeking a solution.I agree that instruction and closer supervision is the best approach, but Bob's dilemma is that he is only in the shed on Fridays, and a Shed can't operate on a different set of rules for each day of the week (or month) based on who is the supervisor that day.



I do not belong to a men's shed or any other organization, I find there are too many bush lawyers trying to cruel it for the majority who are often seeking nothing more than social interaction with others who are like minded.safe social interaction in a shed environment really comes down to identifying and recognizing risks. At my local (when in Sydney) shed, the "safety incompetent" -- for want of a better term -- are either supervised very closely or shepherded away from the tools that would do them harm.

[BobL]

I agree that instruction and closer supervision is the best approach, but Bob's dilemma is that he is only in the shed on Fridays, and a Shed can't operate on a different set of rules for each day of the week (or month) based on who is the supervisor that day. .

That's why I suggested we have SOP's - then its written down and we have something concrete to refer to.

[Mobyturns]

That's why I suggested we have SOP's - then its written down and we have something concrete to refer to.

Alexm1,
I agree Men's Sheds do have a very positive influence in general on men's health & well being. That is why they exist and is why the receive the funding support that they get. However the agenda of a Men's Shed is not necessarily geared towards the health and safety issues associated with using machinery and power tools. The shed environment and management structure unintentionally places some members in an environment where they assume quite a bit of responsibility with little support. This is not so good for the individuals health & well being.

What we are talking about is when the system does not support the individual volunteer who is prepared to step up and be counted. The risk is not unknown - there are instances of committee's having been successfully prosecuted for breaches of WH&S regulations etc. So for a retiree with hard earned retirement assets they have a well founded concern that they could be a target when others who do not assume responsibility for their own actions get injured.

Bob,
I have been down that road. I approached DECS in South Australia and received permission to model the local wood turning clubs Safe Operating Procedures on theirs. Most states' education departments followed DECS' lead. DECS have some very good material - http://www.decd.sa.gov.au/docs/documents/1/GuidelinesfortheSafeUse-3.pdf

Contact DECS, but I would assume that the Men's Shed movement already have their own model SOP's or at least they should!

[Handyjack]

As part of each participants induction they need to read a disclaimer that they understand the activities conducted by them and others carry risks and they will not hold the Club/Society representative and office bearer responsible for injuries or death.
They might need to sign such a disclaimer on a regular basis, at least annually.

Such a form could include basic safe operating instructions such as eye protection to be worn at all times on the work floor.

Only a thought, but may not have legal standing although you would at least have their signature to the risks.

[BobL]

As part of each participants induction they need to read a disclaimer that they understand the activities conducted by them and others carry risks and they will not hold the Club/Society representative and office bearer responsible for injuries or death. They might need to sign such a disclaimer on a regular basis, at least annually.
Such a form could include basic safe operating instructions such as eye protection to be worn at all times on the work floor.
Only a thought, but may not have legal standing although you would at least have their signature to the risks.

We already do that but according to our legal experts it won't stop people trying to sue and it will have limited standing if negligence is proven, AND it seems to have had limited impact on practices by some members.

[Mobyturns]

As part of each participants induction they need to read a disclaimer that they understand the activities conducted by them and others carry risks and they will not hold the Club/Society representative and office bearer responsible for injuries or death.
They might need to sign such a disclaimer on a regular basis, at least annually.

Such a form could include basic safe operating instructions such as eye protection to be worn at all times on the work floor.

Only a thought, but may not have legal standing although you would at least have their signature to the risks.

This approach has been attempted but it quickly fails due to changes in committee's etc. It also has some risk however I used it at TAWA while I was Secretary. The catch is the member must understand what they are signing and must have an opportunity to consider their decision. We formulated it along the lines of the member had to go away and read the policies etc then make an application to use the workshop equipment and this was part of the application. Most new members had done the workshop induction in the beginners wood turning course.

I understand and acknowledge that;

· I have received an induction to (insert club name) workshop and policies.
· I have specific legal obligations under the Workplace Health and Safety Act 1995 (http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/W/WorkplHSaA95.pdf) and Regulations.
· all woodturning and woodworking is inherently dangerous unless suitable precautions are taken.
· I have been given a copy of (insert club name) Introductory Booklet & Guide to Policies & Safe Operating Procedure’s and have read its contents.
· (insert club name) does not warrant that the above guide and its policies are complete or without error or omissions.

Certainly not fool proof but this with the booklet and other policies plus the real actions of the committee to improve safety does demonstrate that the committee has a commitment to providing a safe environment and is serious about safety. If the member does not sign or won't comply with their obligations then the workshop authority could be terminated however the member could still enjoy the social aspects of the club and enter the meeting rooms, just not the workshop.

[BobL]

Contact DECS, but I would assume that the Men's Shed movement already have their own model SOP's or at least they should!

Yes they provide a VERY comprehensive safety manual with SOPs for just about every machine.

[KBs PensNmore]

Probably the best thing to do, is to contact the Head Office to find out exactly where you stand? Surely they have an answer for this dilemma, as you wouldn't be the only one to face this problem, plus you find out where you legally stand should there ever be an incident.
Mensheds Australia
PO Box 723
Baulkham Hills , NSW 2154, AustraliaHelp desk phone 0457 888 387
Kryn

[Mobyturns]

What national body? Mens Shed's do have a peak body to represent them but to my knowledge there is no national representation or co-ordination for wood working or wood turning clubs. Closest thing is probably the Council of Woodworking Clubs which runs a group Public Liability insurance policy on behalf of member clubs.


What I find curious about AMSA is the statement "The organisation now has over 930 Men’s Sheds representing an estimated 150,000 individuals and employs 5 full time employees." Now this begs the question, because AMSA employs staff is it and each individual Mens Shed a "volunteer association" or an "undertaking" a PCBU?

The manual is very helpful - "AMSA highly recommends that Men‟s Sheds who are seeking specific information and advice on Men‟s Shed health and safety matters do so by contacting their particular State Regulatory/Statutory bodies."

Some of the answers are here, http://www.nswmensshed.org/SiteFiles/nswmensshed2012org/Final_OH&S_Paper_for_Sheds_(2).pdf & Resource kit - Safe Work Australia (http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/swa/model-whs-laws/guidance/volunteers/pages/resource-kit) Volunteer ‘officers’ and their duties under the model Work Health and Safety Act - Legislative Fact Sheet Series - Safe Work Australia (http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/swa/about/publications/pages/volunteer%E2%80%98officers%E2%80%99andtheirdutiesfactsheet)

"Can volunteer officers be prosecutedunder the WHS Act? Volunteer officers have a duty to exercise due diligence under the WHS Act. A volunteer officer is expected to comply with that duty. A volunteer officer cannot however, be prosecuted for failing to comply with that duty (see section 34(1) WHS Act). This immunity from prosecution is designed to ensure voluntary participation at an officer level is not discouraged. A volunteer officer can however, be prosecuted in their capacity as a ‘worker’ if they fail to meet their duties as a ‘worker’."


Probably the best thing to do, is to contact the Head Office to find out exactly where you stand? Surely they have an answer for this dilemma, as you wouldn't be the only one to face this problem, plus you find out where you legally stand should there ever be an incident.
Mensheds Australia
PO Box 723
Baulkham Hills , NSW 2154, AustraliaHelp desk phone 0457 888 387
Kryn

I think my post above gives an indication to the answers.

I was approached to help set up a Men's Shed locally in 2008/9 and I was given all sorts of assurances by the people behind the attempt to establish it. Unfortunately most of what they said was factually incorrect and grossly misleading. I do not believe it was intentional, simply naïve, however it immediately created an atmosphere of caution and mistrust. The things that concerned me most was that most of these organizations supporting / facilitating Men's Sheds receive grant money to employ staff to facilitate men's and public health programs; depending upon the structure & organization of the program the staff may "work" from the facility & may actually be "staff/employees" of the individual incorporated association; and very few of those staff or the volunteers, and certainly the majority of members have any understanding of the safe use of machinery requirements.

I am not anti Men's Sheds or against associations in general, I have more than given my fair share to any I have been involved in. They are very worthwhile and perform valuable roles in the community. However the management of facilities which permit members to use equipment, tools etc has to be well organized and must meet the common law "duty of care" obligations towards others.

If they don’t receive the support then volunteers are placed in a very difficult position. Most really want to contribute but they realize that the support is not there and that they personally may become liable if things go pear shaped. There are some exemptions from prosecution and a measure of protection under the QLD Civil Liabilities Act 2003.

My decision to withdraw support was not taken lightly – as it meant that I could no longer remain a member as I was fully aware of my and the committee’s obligations. I carefully considered my options, the workshop environment & typical behaviors, and the level of support, and the trust level I had in those on the current committee and likely to be on future committees.

Like many others in this situation we come from an environment where Health & Safety is a significant part of our day to day working life - instant dismissal for significant breaches sort of stuff. We are not safety nazi’s but we are aware of our duties and obligations towards others, and are mostly seeking workable compliant solutions with the least impact to members.

So for many of us by doing nothing to improve the standard of Health & Safety we may be held to a higher standard of “duty of care” because of our background, when things go pear shaped.

This link provides much of the advice & answers BobL and others are seeking

http://www.tved.net.au/index.cfm?SimpleDisplay=PaperDisplay.cfm&PaperDisplay=http://www.tved.net.au/PublicPapers/June_2003,_Lawyers_Education_Channel,_Civil_Liability_Reforms_in_Queensland.html The sections on "Standard of Care" "Duty of Professionals" & "Volunteers" are of particular interest. Other states may have similar legislation.

However relying upon the protections of the Civil Liabilities Act is not very reassuring - it is far better to be proactive and to put in place strategies & training that will help prevent injury or harm.

[rusel]

I have only speed through all the post here and I get the feeling that the theme is to threaten. You want them to change their behavior.
How would it be if they themselves look out for each other. How to do this?
Something like this... a large bell in the middle of the shop for anyone to use if they see someone incorrectly using some equipment. The embarrassment of being court a few times by fellow shedies will work wonders, and maybe if court a number of times by agreement with all present the offender must give a 2 minute safety talk on the equipment in question then and there before being allowed to continue using any equipment.

Russell

[BobL]

Probably the best thing to do, is to contact the Head Office to find out exactly where you stand? Surely they have an answer for this dilemma, as you wouldn't be the only one to face this problem, plus you find out where you legally stand should there ever be an incident.
Mensheds Australia
PO Box 723
Baulkham Hills , NSW 2154, AustraliaHelp desk phone 0457 888 387
Kryn

We have already contacted them multiple time about safety and insurance etc.
Mens shed can affiliate with Mensheds Australia and obtain insurance through then but are not governed or under their control.

In terms of safety They won't give you a definitely answer on liability as there are many variations of organisational setups of mens sheds.
Some sheds are incorporated under their own entity others are under other entities (community organisations, clubs and churches etc) so they are not all the same
Mensheds Australia will simply refer you to their Safety manual (which is very good) about best practice and tell you to get your own legal advice.

Anyway - like I said we have had more than enough need legal advice - I just chasing ideas to convince members including some of the management to work safely.

[alexm1]

Bob, I greatly admire what you are doing through your volunteering at the shed and what you are trying to achieve in raising the issues you have raised in this thread. I do not agree with all the advice you have received in response to your initial note but it does appear in the majority of cases to be sincere and constructive in intent. (I also realize that not all agree with me!).
A suggestion for your upcoming meeting: where you observe an unsafe situation you could shut the machine down and lock it in some way to prevent anyone using it. A notice could be posted explaining the action and what led to it. After a suitable period the machine could be brought back on line.
This approach would only work if all the supervisors on all the days took the same action, if there was not 100% support it would not work.
There would be much protest and you would be accused of treating people like children; but if that is the way they are acting then that is how they should be treated.
Those that do follow safe practices will be impacted, but most likely they realize what you are trying to achieve and will support you. Peer pressure is what will ultimately change those that work in an unsafe manner, either they will change or they will leave.
Good luck!
Alex.

[BobL]

This approach would only work if all the supervisors on all the days took the same action, if there was not 100% support it would not work.
I think that is the main problem we have.

[ian]

The things that concerned me most was that most of these organizations supporting / facilitating Men's Sheds receive grant money to employ staff to facilitate men's and public health programs; depending upon the structure & organization of the program the staff may "work" from the facility & may actually be "staff/employees" of the individual incorporated association; and very few of those staff or the volunteers, and certainly the majority of members have any understanding of the safe use of machinery requirements.

I am not anti Men's Sheds or against associations in general, I have more than given my fair share to any I have been involved in. They are very worthwhile and perform valuable roles in the community. However the management of facilities which permit members to use equipment, tools etc has to be well organized and must meet the common law "duty of care" obligations towards others.

Like many others in this situation we come from an environment where Health & Safety is a significant part of our day to day working life - instant dismissal for significant breaches sort of stuff. We are not safety nazi’s but we are aware of our duties and obligations towards others, and are mostly seeking workable compliant solutions with the least impact to members.

So for many of us by doing nothing to improve the standard of Health & Safety we may be held to a higher standard of “duty of care” because of our background, when things go pear shaped.


Anyway - like I said we have had more than enough need legal advice - I just chasing ideas to convince members including some of the management to work safely.

A bit like Mobyturns, I came from an environment where "duty of care" is an ever present consideration.

If you can walk past an unsafe act, then you are not exercising your duty of care.

As a senior work place supervisor, my mantra had to be NEVER WALK PAST AN UNSAFE ACT. Because if you do you are condoning the act and accepting the unsafe practice as "normal". Earlier I referred to being in the "go to jail" position -- this is the reality if some act by an employee or contractor on a worksite goes seriously pear shaped.


Working safely in the environment of a Men's shed is not primarily a legal obligation -- it's the attitude adopted by everyone in the shed.

The best I can suggest is to think of the shed as a factory.
A properly set out factory has work zones and zones that must be kept clear, barriers where required to prevent access to machines -- but it's rare to see SOPs on every machine. More normal are lock-out keys where only authorised (trained) users have access to a machine's key.


Shedders shouldn't be obliged to wear full PPE while in the shed, so dust emission, noise reduction, suppression of potential flying objects, etc need to be managed (prevented) at the source.
the controls to achieve this are very similar to the controls in a factory, so a well set out Shed will have similar controls.

the other point is that supervisors are there to supervise / help others -- an expectation that you can work on a personal project is inconsistent with the responsibility of "supervision"

[GraemeCook]

Hi Bob

I deliberately waited a few days before posting the fairly simple response suggested by my lawyer friend.

First, he said that the biggest issue here was that, most likely, all members were liable for the costs of a serious accident, even if they were not involved. That partnership that owns the hammer argument.

He then advocated an education campaign based on the theme "Do not let anyone jepodise me or you by practicing unsafe work practices. Why should Tom and Dick have to pay for Harry's silly behaviour?

Finally, he said it would be irresponsible towards all members not to limit their liabilities by not becoming an incorporated association.

The mens shed movement is a very valuable service and it would be a shame for it to founder or lose those members able to make the greatest contribution.

Fair Winds

Graeme

[BobL]

Hi Bob

I deliberately waited a few days before posting the fairly simple response suggested by my lawyer friend.

First, he said that the biggest issue here was that, most likely, all members were liable for the costs of a serious accident, even if they were not involved. That partnership that owns the hammer argument.

He then advocated an education campaign based on the theme "Do not let anyone jepodise me or you by practicing unsafe work practices. Why should Tom and Dick have to pay for Harry's silly behaviour?

Finally, he said it would be irresponsible towards all members not to limit their liabilities by not becoming an incorporated association.

The mens shed movement is a very valuable service and it would be a shame for it to founder or lose those members able to make the greatest contribution.

Fair Winds

Graeme

Since the formation of the mens shed we have been incorporated under our local Senior Citizens Centre.
Members must join the senior citizens centre to be a member of the mens shed.

[Mobyturns]

Since the formation of the mens shed we have been incorporated under our local Senior Citizens Centre.
Members must join the senior citizens centre to be a member of the mens shed.

Does the Senior Citizens Center employ staff? Does it have a paid Secretary / Treasurer? etc. These things seem like trivial technicalities but from the advice I have received those sorts of questions require answers as it may change the situation with regards to Workplace Health & Safety compliance.

I still maintain its best to comply with WHS regulations within the realms of the financial resources of the organization. Doing so demonstrates a commitment to "best practice." More importantly it shows the organization / association cares about the safety and welfare of its members & that is the most important reason - to provide safe equipment, a safe environment and to control the behaviour of members so that all can enjoy the hobby etc.

[BobL]

Does the Senior Citizens Center employ staff? Does it have a paid Secretary / Treasurer? etc. These things seem like trivial technicalities but from the advice I have received those sorts of questions require answers as it may change the situation with regards to Workplace Health & Safety compliance..

The senior citizens centre and all it's clubs/activities employs nobody - this has been confirmed by the President and secretary of the Senior citizens.
We have been through this multiple times - everyone is a volunteer.


I still maintain its best to comply with WHS regulations within the realms of the financial resources of the organization. Doing so demonstrates a commitment to "best practice." More importantly it shows the organization / association cares about the safety and welfare of its members & that is the most import reason - to provide safe equipment, a safe environment and to control the behaviour of members so that all can enjoy the hobby etc.

I agree, but convincing the members is not so easy.
I have put all my concerns at committee meeting and in writing several times - they have no excuse for not knowing the situation.

[GraemeCook]

Does the Senior Citizens Center employ staff? Does it have a paid Secretary / Treasurer? etc. These things seem like trivial technicalities but from the advice I have received those sorts of questions require answers as it may change the situation with regards to Workplace Health & Safety compliance.

I still maintain its best to comply with WHS regulations within the realms of the financial resources of the organization. Doing so demonstrates a commitment to "best practice." More importantly it shows the organization / association cares about the safety and welfare of its members & that is the most important reason - to provide safe equipment, a safe environment and to control the behaviour of members so that all can enjoy the hobby etc.


All good advice, Mobyturns.

But the real big risks in dollar terms come from common law, the law or torts or negligence, rather than from statute law. If you let an irresponsible person use your hammer, then you might be liable for any damage he does to himself or others. No one said the law has to be fair or reasonable.

What Bob is trying to do in his mens shed is to create an environment where all reasonable risks are minimised, and where no one gets hurt. Then, if, in spite of their best endeavours, there is an actionable event, then to limit the costs to the other members. As the senior citizens centre is an incorporated association, the amount of damages is limitted to the insurance coverage of both the mens shed and the senior citizens centre plus the proceeds from liquidating that association. To claim against individual members and board members, the victim would have to prove gross negligence, legally a difficult hurdle to cross.

But the issue of skilled ex-artisans refusing to follow basic safety guidelines is perplexing. I have an eighty year old friend, a long retired ex wood machinist and ex metal machinist, who pointedly refuses to follow protocol and always removes safety guards, riving knives, etc. "Fifty years ago we learnt to use the gear properly and do not need all that gadgetry getting in the way..." To which I usually reply "Yep, and you are now deaf with all eight fingers intact!" He lost two fingers long before I met him and I know that I am not winning this argument. And he still produces beautiful work.

In a mens shed, because of his obviously very high skill base and affable personality, he could easily become a role model for inexperienced members with potentially dire consequences.


Bob is in a very difficult situation.

Cheers

Graeme

[Lappa]

Since the formation of the mens shed we have been incorporated under our local Senior Citizens Centre.
Members must join the senior citizens centre to be a member of the mens shed.

Can a 30 year old join the Senior Citizens Centre?

[BobL]

Yes they can our Senior Citizens Centre - they get a special membership so they can join the Mens Shed.

[Mobyturns]

All good advice, Mobyturns.

But the real big risks in dollar terms come from common law, the law or torts or negligence, rather than from statute law. If you let an irresponsible person use your hammer, then you might be liable for any damage he does to himself or others. No one said the law has to be fair or reasonable. ........

But the issue of skilled ex-artisans refusing to follow basic safety guidelines is perplexing. ....
Cheers

Graeme

Yes the potential for a law suit under tort law is real and so is prosecution in very particular instances under WH&S law. We can talk about the potential legal claims all day, it won't change anything because most people believe 'it won't happen to them." The real issue is the lack of will & intent of the organization / committee / supervisors / members to provide a safe environment and to work in a safe manner.

Its not perplexing .... it is a conflict of at times mutually opposite ideals .... men's health, inclusion, mental well being vs unsafe behavior placing others at risk.

Your example above about one member removing guards, refusing to comply with shed rules etc is a prime example of a lack of will & intent and the goody goody approach to not hurt that particular members feelings etc by saying "p*ss off you are not welcome" because you are creating a hazard for other members. He clearly has no regard for others safety so why should he be permitted to use the shed's equipment and continue to place others at risk? I simply do not understand the tolerance for such people and that sort of callous behavior .... because that is what it is - "a persistent pattern of behavior that reflects a disregard for others".

Any committee that permits such a person to continue removing guards etc on machinery in a communal workshop is grossly negligent in my book. The lawyers would have a field day on that one.

(Edit) The other thing I would add is that almost all people involved in promotion of wood turning / working and other likely Men's Shed activities would not like to see the use of gory photos to show what happens when things go pear shaped. It is almost like we live in a utopian world where things never go wrong or only happen to some one else and it is always some one else's fault or negligence that is the cause. It is not fun picking up severed body parts!

I certainly do not wish to see people excluded however I personally do not like being placed "at risk" because of their disregard for my welfare. It is a simple choice for the offending member - comply and be welcome, or move on.

Until committee's grow kohuna's it will never change!

Yes BobL is in a difficult situation, does he wish to be included in a group that takes risks, big risks! I've been there and made my choice. I chose my safety and mental well being over a lot of anguish and unpaid volunteer hours that became a chore rather than a pleasure.

[Lappa]

Yes they can our Senior Citizens Centre - they get a special membership so they can join the Mens Shed.

excellent:2tsup:
We have a number of teenagers at our men's shed and if we were to follow your method, I would have hated them to be ineligible due to age.

[GraemeCook]

Yes they can our Senior Citizens Centre - they get a special membership so they can join the Mens Shed.


Great, Bob

But what do you call that class of members - trainee senior citizens, apprentice senior citizens, senior citizens of the future ???


Graeme

[GraemeCook]

Yes the potential for a law suit under tort law is real and so is prosecution in very particular instances under WH&S law. We can talk about the potential legal claims all day, it won't change anything because most people believe 'it won't happen to them." The real issue is the lack of will & intent of the organization / committee / supervisors / members to provide a safe environment and to work in a safe manner.



No, Mobyturns, I will have to disagree with you on this one.

The risk of prosecution under WHS law is very low, bordering zero.

A mens shed is usually not an employer or a workplace.
WorkCover is so grossly understaffed that they cannot afford to go looking for work.

Your other comments are not relevant in regard to the case that I referenced. My eight fingered friend is not a member of a mens shed. The instances refered to happened in his shed and in my shed until I very firmly told him never to remove my riving knife. He went through a similar process in a couple of other friends sheds - we regularly help eachother and share machinery - and was repeatedly told not to remove the guards.

Now, he uses machinery with guards in place in other peoples sheds whilst cheerfully grumbling about what a PIA all the guards are. In his own shed, guards of the most basic kind are non-existant.


Graeme

[BobL]

Great, Bob

But what do you call that class of members - trainee senior citizens, apprentice senior citizens, senior citizens of the future ???

Graeme

While all members that join the shed are required to join the senior citizens centre (SSC) - built into the annual subs and application form - 90% of shed members that join the shed have nothing to do with the SSC (which is next door to the shed) or its other activities. These members see themselves as purely members of the shed. The SSC offers something like 23 other activities to members the majority of which appeal more to women than men and is why we got them to support us in getting the shed going. In fact it was one of the (unfortunately now deceased) female members who suggested a Mens Shed be set up. Few of the other SSC activities are likely to appeal to teenagers.

[BobL]

No, Mobyturns, I will have to disagree with you on this one.

The risk of prosecution under WHS law is very low, bordering zero.

A mens shed is usually not an employer or a workplace.
WorkCover is so grossly understaffed that they cannot afford to go looking for work.



That is precisely the advice we have had from a number of expert sources.

The greatest external pressure we face is that the insurance (obtained thru AMSA) assumes best practice OSH - but it is not defined nor will the insurers state requirements. The Mens Shed Association provides a comprehensive GUIDE to safety. I would be more than happy if we met that guide - in most cases we meet that standard but in some important ones we do not.

Last year WorkSafe WA provided a brief self-assessment for small businesses and this was also sent to our Shed via the City Council. However, as we were told we were not obliged to undertake the assessment the Shed committee did not want to do the survey, perhaps somewhat to their annoyance I did it anyway. Of the 31 or so items I was confident we were fully covering 23 of these and partially covering 3 more and we were were more or less starting to look at the remaining items. Given the shed had only been fully established for a few months I was happy enough with the progress we had made. However things seemed to stall after that and some of the members practices deteriorated. As I said before, several of the committee, including the chair told me at the Xmas do that we need to urgently revisit the matter of safety. Given this I'm now more confident we can make progress.

BTW The greatest risks to health we face are not machinery related - last year we had two heart attacks and rapid loss of blood pressure event that required medical attention.
Some of us wanted to get a defibrillator kit but others were reticent about this - last thing I heard is we are getting one.
BTW we had 23 members attend a First Aid short course last year and we have 5 members with Full First Aid certs.
AT the first aid short course I had a fainting spell and had to sit outside for a half an hour before going home - it turned out I had the beginnings of a bad flu.

[Mobyturns]

No, Mobyturns, I will have to disagree with you on this one.

The risk of prosecution under WHS law is very low, bordering zero.

A mens shed is usually not an employer or a workplace.
WorkCover is so grossly understaffed that they cannot afford to go looking for work.

Your other comments are not relevant in regard to the case that I referenced. My eight fingered friend is not a member of a mens shed. The instances refered to happened in his shed and in my shed until I very firmly told him never to remove my riving knife. He went through a similar process in a couple of other friends sheds - we regularly help eachother and share machinery - and was repeatedly told not to remove the guards.

Now, he uses machinery with guards in place in other peoples sheds whilst cheerfully grumbling about what a PIA all the guards are. In his own shed, guards of the most basic kind are non-existant.


Graeme

Graeme,
The legislation may still vary across states even though there was a push to standardize the legislation. I must admit I have not fully kept up with research since 2008 and the advice I received then (for QLD) is that the ownership of plant (buildings, machinery) and the maintenance of it is the thing that will most likely attract WPH&S's attention. Your friend exists in most men’s sheds – there always seems to be a few of them.

Work cover may well be under staffed and not interested in “work place” inspections however they must investigate “notifiable incidents.” The decision to refer a “notifiable incident” to WPH&S most likely will be made by an attending Police officer in the event of a fatality or serious injury. That is not the time to find out that the “undertaking” you are involved with comes under their jurisdiction.

BobL you may find parts of this helpful, even though it is QLD specific advice for retirement villages. Note the “User Agreement” on page 34.

Safety in the Work Shed: A practical guide for retirement village operators in Queensland - Publications - Be Informed - Minter Ellison (http://www.minterellison.com/publications/safety-in-the-work-shed/)

[BobL]

Graeme,
The legislation may still vary across states even though there was a push to standardize the legislation. I must admit I have not fully kept up with research since 2008 and the advice I received then (for QLD) is that the ownership of plant (buildings, machinery) and the maintenance of it is the thing that will most likely attract WPH&S's attention. Your friend exists in most men’s sheds – there always seems to be a few of them.

Work cover may well be under staffed and not interested in “work place” inspections however they must investigate “notifiable incidents.” The decision to refer a “notifiable incident” to WPH&S most likely will be made by an attending Police officer in the event of a fatality or serious injury. That is not the time to find out that the “undertaking” you are involved with comes under their jurisdiction.

BobL you may find parts of this helpful, even though it is QLD specific advice for retirement villages. Note the “User Agreement” on page 34.

Safety in the Work Shed: A practical guide for retirement village operators in Queensland - Publications - Be Informed - Minter Ellison (http://www.minterellison.com/publications/safety-in-the-work-shed/)

Thanks for the link but unfortunately it doesn't apply all that well as retirement villages employ people and the they come under Worksafe.
We also have a similar User Agreement to the one in that document

We have no shortage of suitable User Agreements, documentation and guidelines, especially from AMSA - the issue is more about how do we get the members to take all this on board.

As you may know I have supervised/demonstrated WW at a retirement Village. Even though I was a volunteer, the OTs that helped and the Maintenance guys who's workshop we used were all paid so it was all covered by Worksafe. An even greater issue was he disability of some users that had to be taken into consideration. I also found working there stressful but not because of the safety angle but that is another story.

New Association Laws come into force in WA in July of this year. The changes are mostly around the permitted trading test - able to compete with private businesses etc but it looks like the liability of volunteers to not be sued has been more clearly spelled out - I will get our legal eagles onto for their opinion.

[Mobyturns]

the issue is more about how do we get the members to take all this on board.



Bob, I really don't think you can get them to "take it on board" as they simply want to socialize, do their own thing and let some one else worry about it for them.

It really is quite difficult to manage given the diverse range of members personalities, peer group dynamics, backgrounds, education, experience, skills, their advancing years, mobility, medical conditions etc. I don't think it is insurmountable by any means but it certainly requires a lot of time, dedication, energy and diplomacy, something many of us wish to avoid in our leisure pursuits.

More clarity about the liability of volunteers would be comforting but it seems the Civil Liabilities Act in QLD didn't have as great an impact as the pollies had hoped.

[Mobyturns]

I got curious about how Bob could improve things at the shed so I though about how others organizations mitigate their risk when sponsoring a men's shed. I use the term loosely to include all incorporated / unincorporated shed like environments, so it is definitely not specific to the Men's Shed movement or targeted at that movement.

So I performed a Google search last night for "men's shed Coordinator" and "men's shed coordinator position description" which found several vacancy ads and job descriptions. It seems that many sponsoring organizations are opting for a paid full / part time coordinator to control the sheds activities.

Most of these positions seem to be funded by grants for dementia support etc; sponsored by local government, or an organization like the Salvo's. This of course would significantly change the Workplace compliance issue and actually force the issue so that the Shed must comply with Workplace Health & Safety, machinery guarding, electrical compliance regulations etc.

Removes any argument about "we don't have to comply, because we aren't performing paid work" and gives the sponsoring organization control through their representative who happens to be a paid employee. :wink:

[BobL]

I got curious about how Bob could improve things at the shed so I though about how others organizations mitigate their risk when sponsoring a men's shed. I use the term loosely to include all incorporated / unincorporated shed like environments, so it is definitely not specific to the Men's Shed movement or targeted at that movement.

So I performed a Google search last night for "men's shed Coordinator" and "men's shed coordinator position description" which found several vacancy ads and job descriptions. It seems that many sponsoring organizations are opting for a paid full / part time coordinator to control the sheds activities.

That is correct, but there are many small sheds that are all volunteer based.


Most of these positions seem to be funded by grants for dementia support etc; sponsored by local government, or an organization like the Salvo's. This of course would significantly change the Workplace compliance issue and actually force the issue so that the Shed must comply with Workplace Health & Safety, machinery guarding, electrical compliance regulations etc.

Electrical compliance applies everywhere even in private/ domestic settings.
We are fortunate to have three members who are sparkies, 2 with current licences, to cover that.
The funding we have received has no obligation to operate according to Worksafe rules.
The main external driver is the insurance which refers to "best practice' but does not specify what that means.
The government funding we obtained only required we operate according to small association law which only refers to OHS in general terms and only requires Worksafe involvement where paid workers are concerned.

[Chesand]

BTW The greatest risks to health we face are not machinery related - last year we had two heart attacks and rapid loss of blood pressure event that required medical attention.
Some of us wanted to get a defibrillator kit but others were reticent about this - last thing I heard is we are getting one.
BTW we had 23 members attend a First Aid short course last year and we have 5 members with Full First Aid certs.
AT the first aid short course I had a fainting spell and had to sit outside for a half an hour before going home - it turned out I had the beginnings of a bad flu.

If you get a defibrillator, it is essential that as many of your people as possible have the training. Some time ago, I was involved with a Community Bank that gave about 20 to local groups (mostly sporting groups) and we insisted on them attending training. It was "no training, no defibrillator". Our hope was that they were never needed.
I have since been into several places where they have defibrillators and when I ask staff if they have had training, the answer is usually 'no because the first aid officer knows.' I am not sure what happens if he/she is not on duty or at lunch.
They are not hard to use and certainly everyone in such a group as Bob's should know.

[Sawdust Maker]

My mens shed has a defibrillator
training was provided but it is essentially fool proof as the machine itself takes you through the process



we wanted to try it out on one of the members but were told that it was pointless as he was heartless!

[Chesand]

My mens shed has a defibrillator
training was provided but it is essentially fool proof as the machine itself takes you through the process



we wanted to try it out on one of the members but were told that it was pointless as he was heartless!

You are right, Nick, they are pretty much foolproof but everyone needs to be shown that.

At one of our training sessions, one guy was worried about exposing or touching a woman's breast to use it. The reply was that we felt she would not mind if he had saved her life.

[AndrewOC]

I got curious about how Bob could improve things at the shed so I though about how others organizations mitigate their risk ...... a paid full / part time coordinator to control the sheds activities.

Removes any argument about "we don't have to comply, because we aren't performing paid work" and gives the sponsoring organization control through their representative who happens to be a paid employee. :wink:
Interesting idea. It probably would work at many organisations.
However...
In the past I helped out at a volunteer based workshop centered organisation that had a paid Workshop Manager since about 2001. To this day they still have the problem of the 'old fogies' (read ever present, retiree members) that insist that new-fangled safety is not for them. The Manager always has too much to do to monitor safe practice every minute of the day- there is an expectation his priority is for him to solve projects with his (impressive) technical experience.
This is a fascinating topic, keep up the good discussion everyone!
regs
Andrew

[BobL]

My mens shed has a defibrillator
training was provided but it is essentially fool proof as the machine itself takes you through the process

23 of our members attended a First aid short (3 hours) course last year run by a St John's.
(We also have 5 members with full first aid certificates)
The short course included a 10 minute demo of one of the latest defibrillators.
The St Johns trainer running the course reckoned that is all the training needed.
She also said that a short training video is also sufficient e.g. eg https://youtu.be/7LRP1zbsdO0
If you look at that video you will see it is straight forward and far from rocket science.
The defibrillator talks to you and tells you what to do.
It has an impressive sensing capability that will not shock the patient's heart unless all the sensors report correctly.

[Handyjack]

The good thing about doing a first aid course, is that the skills can be used anywhere. It is hoped that they are never needed, but sooner or later they might be needed. I myself regularly do a first aid course (paid for by a place where I volunteer), yet I have been called upon as a first aider where I am employed full time (in a medical facility). Thank fully it has yet to be a critical situation. The most important thing about a defibrillator is knowing where it is (usually signed) and that it is charged.

[Mobyturns]

My mens shed has a defibrillator training was provided but it is essentially fool proof as the machine itself takes you through the process

I certainly hope they are foolproof as I would not like to see the procrastination I have seen occur in the shed environment when a group of retirees start deciding how do do something. :oo:

I'm OK I will BYO :D as I've been battery operated for a month shy of nine years now.

I hope most people in a shed or on this forum do a first aid course and a refresher every few years.

[ian]

23 of our members attended a First aid short (3 hours) course last year run by a St John's.
(We also have 5 members with full first aid certificates)"
The short course included a 10 minute demo of one of the latest defibrillators.
The St Johns trainer running the course reckoned that is all the training needed.
She also said that a short training video is also sufficient e.g. eg https://youtu.be/7LRP1zbsdO0
If you look at that video you will see it is straight forward and far from rocket science.
The defibrillator talks to you and tells you what to do.
It has an impressive sensing capability that will not shock the patient's heart unless all the sensors report correctly.BUT ...

someone has to have the gumption to go and get the bloody thing. Plus the box is typically alarmed so the ambos are automatically called if the box is opened. I'm not confident that my work colleagues wouldn't see the "this box is alarmed" sign and not go "maybe I should wait ..."
In my day job work place, if a person suffered a heart attack, I estimate around 50% of the employees would ignore it -- "not my business", and most of the rest would stand around looking at each other going "should we send for the first aid person?" / "who is the First Aid person" / "how do you contact the first aid person?"
4 years ago I accidentally slashed the back of my hand (luckily missing a major blood vessel or a nerve) -- the gash needed 4 or 5 stitches -- the response from my work colleagues was ...
"you're bleeding"
me: "I know. I need to wash the wound and apply a pressure bandage."
"You're bleeding badly. You should wait and contact the first aid officer."
me: "Please turn on the tap and give me some paper towel."
"You should wait and get a proper bandage from first aid."
me: "Wrap some packaging tape around my hand so I can apply pressure to the wound."
"No. You can't do that, you should wait till first aid gets here"
me (after wrapping a coupe of turns of tape around my hand one handed): "Get me a Cabcharge voucher."
"OK"

I recon I was in the cab on the way to casualty within 5 minutes of the injury and well before the employer's "first aide person" would have been contacted.

[BobL]

Creating a culture of everyone looking out for each other is what it's all about. That's why leaving medical things to a first aid officer and safety to a Safety officer is not as effective.


In my day job work place, if a person suffered a heart attack, I estimate around 50% of the employees would ignore it -- "not my business", .

The reaction of members at our shed appears to be the opposite of this.
As I wrote above, last year 2 members suffered heart attacks and one a rapid blood pressure loss rewiring medical attention. I was not present at any of these but apparently the other members stepped in quickly to help and call for assistance. In the case of the rapid blood pressure loss the fellow had fainted while sitting down falling onto the table in the crib room. Our crib room has large windows that look out into the main shed, one of the members noticed he didn't look right and went to take a look and then called for assistance. Members do look out for one another not just for medical issue but on others as well. From that point of view this is a good shed - somehow we need to ;ever off this in the safety area.

[munruben]

Well what a can of worms this thread has opened up. Firstly let me say I am a shed leader in my area and we are a member of the AMSA and I was very concerned about my liability should something happen in our shed. I wrote to the AMSA and asked if insurance covered me in the event that a shed member was injured in the shed while using a machine and using a technique I had instructed him to use which in my mind is the safest way I know how to use that machine for a particular cut; my letter was forwarded to the insurance company who I guess AMSA use for its members and I received a reply from the actual insurance company advising that I am covered if such an incident occurred. My shed is funded by a not for profit organisation and the shed is completely run by unpaid,, volunteer members.

As someone mentioned in an earlier post, there are now well over 900 sheds in Australia and with all the legal assumptions made here in this thread, not one post quotes evidence of a shed committee member or supervisor in a shed, being sued and losing all his assets. The Men sheds have been going for quite some time now and as far as I can see, not one person has come forward with concrete evidence of someone losing everything they own due to their being taken to court over the matters mentioned here. Most of these posts are based on supposition and even lawyers apparently don't know the full ramifications involved. Lets face it, if we concerned ourselves with every time we can be held responsible for something we do when we go out of our home; we probably wouldn't leave the safety of our home. We can justify most things using scare tactics and legal jargon of bush lawyers but in reality not one person has cited a legal case that involved a men shed or a men shed supervisor or member. I agree from experience in my local men shed, it is very difficult to make someone do what they dont want to do and that is the real issue so as to prevent them injuring themselves or others in the shed. I think this is the bigger issue here and is something that can be addressed rather than making assumptions and wild claims of what may or may not happen if we are taken to court.

I think it was stated in post 73 that one should never remove a riving knife for instance from a table saw. (I am paraphrasing) This is not always possible in some instances such as some trench cutting or using a dado blade and in these examples it is quite necessary to remove the riving knife..

In reality a court would also take into account the age of the person injured and most shed members are old and in their late 60s and some much older; I doubt there would be pay-outs of hundreds of thousands of dollars for us oldies. Am I really worth that much? hope it doesn't give someone ideas.

[munruben]

While i'm at it, our shed has installed a Defribrilator and about 20 of our members attended an instruction course on how to use it. It is quite true the machine tells you what to do but it is also necessary to administer CPR so not much use knowing how to use the machine if you dont know how to do CPR.

[GraemeCook]

23 of our members attended a First aid short (3 hours) course last year run by a St John's.
(We also have 5 members with full first aid certificates)



The good thing about doing a first aid course, is that the skills can be used anywhere. It is hoped that they are never needed, but sooner or later they might be needed. I myself regularly do a first aid course (paid for by a place where I volunteer), yet I have been called upon as a first aider where I am employed full time (in a medical facility).

Great advice.

I have had first aid qualifications for almost 30 years and so far have never been involved in a serious case. I hope it remains so. But.......

Everyone should be encouraged to undertake basic training. You never know when it might be needed.

Fair Winds

Graeme

[Mobyturns]

Great advice.

I have had first aid qualifications for almost 30 years and so far have never been involved in a serious case. I hope it remains so. But.......

Everyone should be encouraged to undertake basic training. You never know when it might be needed.

Fair Winds

Graeme

I would recommend that anyone involved in management of a Men's Shed obtain a First Aid qualification.

It seems natural to me to have one as I completed my first senior first aid course while in grade 10. Our physical education teacher was a fitness fanatic and encouraged many of the class to do first aid with an emphasis on sports injury. Then gaining a "first aid certificate" was a mandatory requirement of a surveying tertiary course, no certificate no graduation! My employer ensures staff complete a basic first aid and resuscitation training refresher course at least every two years and some staff have to do a full course every year to maintain various registrations or to meet entry requirements to many work & mine sites. My wife has also regularly done refresher courses.

Over the years purely by chance we have been first responders to some quite serious road accidents and have used our training assisting casualties with some pretty nasty injuries. Knowing you are applying appropriate and current first aid techniques is very reassuring and gives you a sense of control & confidence in what can be a pretty graphic and traumatic situation. It is even more reassuring to have an "ambo" lean over your shoulder and say "keep doing what you are doing while I triage the others." Even better when they say "job well done."

ps One thing I would add - put the hard word on your mates to do a first aid course. You being the only one to have a first aid qualification in not much use if you are the casualty.

[BobL]

First day back at the shed for me as the Friday Coordinator after the Xmas and New Year break.
It was a hot day which is probably why only 10 members turned up but I signed up two new members and we had a visitor from another shed.
No safety issues all day.

.

[KBs PensNmore]

Glad to hear that Bob :2tsup:

[Chesand]

No safety issues all day.

.

Perhaps they have been reading this thread and had the c##p scared out of them.

[GraemeCook]

I would recommend that anyone involved in management of a Men's Shed obtain a First Aid qualification.



Hi Mobyturns

Why limit the first aid training to those involved in management? I think everyone should be encouraged to acquire first aid skills. Whjat happens if management is not there or is the victim?

Even in enterprises where OHAS specifies that a minimum of 10 or 20% shall be first aid trained, it is very difficult for Personnel to ensure that every shift in every section is adequately covered, and complicated by RDO's and leave.

Idealistic, but in my view the target should be 100% first aid trained.


Cheers

Graeme

[Handyjack]

First aid can be required any where, from the home to recreation, the shops, to work. Even the basic stuff can effect the long term outcome.
I work in a medical facility, lots of qualified nurses and a few doctors, but incidents from falls, fainting and other incidents might mean any (non medical) staff member might be there first. I have come a cross member of public who had fallen, while not urgent, they need attention. Yes, the doctors came but the first few minutes just to get them to sit down was hard. (I herd latter the doctors thought they had a broken nose to go with broken glasses.)
The more that have some training the better for all.

[Mobyturns]

Hi Mobyturns

Why limit the first aid training to those involved in management? I think everyone should be encouraged to acquire first aid skills. Whjat happens if management is not there or is the victim?

Even in enterprises where OHAS specifies that a minimum of 10 or 20% shall be first aid trained, it is very difficult for Personnel to ensure that every shift in every section is adequately covered, and complicated by RDO's and leave.

Idealistic, but in my view the target should be 100% first aid trained.


Cheers

Graeme

Yes, I agree more the merrier in my book. My only reason to say "involved in management" was because the OP started about supervisors & safety frustration.

One of the many reasons I left the local club was because a member put three fingers into a band saw causing a near amputation of the fingers. No one on duty that session, which included a few committee members and the club president, had a first aid qualification or knew what to do. They did not refer to the large poster in the club house giving directions to contact 000 and decided to take the casualty directly to the ambulance station which was only 500m or so away. There was a clear direction not to do this, on the poster and in the safe operating procedures which every member had to read and sign off on in an application for an "authority to operate workshop machinery." The direction existed because there is no "casualty" rooms on site at the ambo station and the building is secured, with no public access. Purely by chance an ambo was outside the building and called an ambulance to the station for them. As secretary I found out about this many weeks after the event.

[wheelinround]

Over the years since Incorporation was introduced here in NSW I have been involved in a number of organisations the first as P&C Vice President then President at my kids primary school back in the 70's. Been through drawn out meetings with even a lawyer present at one to fully inform the group or legal ramifications. I found this and it may quell or inflame this thread I hope it shines some light to those who wish to clarify.
I have seen groups walk away from incorporation and just become a group of people that meet to avoid the hassles.

https://www.communitydirectors.com.au/icda/tools/?articleId=4435
(https://www.communitydirectors.com.au/icda/tools/?articleId=4435)
One reason for groups or individuals who have gone through legal matters of this nature do not come to light is one of disclosure of such although people do talk.