How To Improve My Technique

[abrogard]

I seem to have a hopeless technique for cutting simple joints - for cutting anything.

I need some help, some guidance.

Here are five shelves 450mm I've made. The corners are cut out to take 40mm x 20mm timber routed out 10mm.

Very simple. Cut the shelves with my power saw using a guide.
Cut the corners out marking out carefully and then using a jigsaw. I don't have anything else for the job - except a hand saw. I don't have a table saw.

From these photos you can see I don't even have the shelves perfect. But they are not too bad.

But the cut outs are hopeless. They are all over the place. I don't even know how I can fix them. I can put a sander on them perhaps. Keep them together in a block like in the photo and sand till all equal. Or use a rasp across there. In the old days it would have had to have been a chisel job I guess. Perhaps I should go back to that.

I find it hard to see, bending over the jigsaw, my glasses slip down my nose, the shadows make seeing hard - but that's the only way to do it, isn't it? Can't use a guide, I've found that out.

The saw cut will wander if driven along a guide. Googled and found that's commonplace apparently with jigsaws. Though maybe not with such a small cut.

What would real woodworkers advise me to do about doing such jobs from scratch and fixing this job? And give up isn't an option. :)

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[chambezio]

At least you are having a go!! You can't get shot for trying!!!
Please don't think I am patronising you.
By the pics, I think you need to "get back to basics". My take on electric jig saws is that the have difficulty cutting square. I would put the power tools down and work with hand tools. To follow a line and be accurate with a power tool take a lot of practice!
If you can afford to make the shelves smaller I would "re-do" the cut outs with hand tools. Hand saw to start with then use a chisel to "clean up". In doing these joints again you can concentrate on hand and eye co-ordination. Don't be in a hurry and take your time to keep the tools on the right side of the line. Be critical with each part you are cutting and make the next cut out better than the last one you did. Put a joint together "dry" and have a good look at how it comes together and try to make each joint better as you go.

Yes its back to basics and slow progress but you will be learning. I have used this method with stick welding. Even now after 30 odd years of making things from steel, I still put a critical eye over each weld and endeavour to make the next weld better.

Power tools can make things quicker but at the same time they can make a joint very sloppy in a heartbeat. Just because you have a certain power tool capable of doing a task, its you the operator who determines whether or not that task is cut properly

[abrogard]

I will take your advice. The jigsaw (in my hands at least) is not the tool for this job. I could probably do a better job with a ripsaw and all the shelves clamped together as in the photo than I've done with the jigsaw.

Perhaps I should get a tenon saw? I see a man there using a coping saw - maybe I should do that? (Buyer's Guide to Handsaws for Woodworkers (4/13) | Wood and Shop (http://woodandshop.com/woodworking-hand-tool-buying-guide-handsaws/))

Cut the shelves out and then clamp them together and plane them down identical and square.

Crosscut or panel saw or something to cut the corners out and finish up with a chisel?

Something like that perhaps?

[Master Splinter]

Jigsaws are not the most accurate of saws for this purpose. If it was me, I'd use my:

Table saw,
Band saw, or
Make the first one to size, rough cut the rest, and use a bearing guided router bit to with the first one as a template and tidy up all but the inside corner and do that with a chisel.

But in reality, I'd dismiss all of those as 'too fiddly' and rework the design using a biscuit jointer, dowels or even pocket hole screws (in my dreams... so read this as 'nail gun and titebond'!), as using a rebate like that adds nothing to the strength of the join. (rebate the uprights if you want strength).

If I wanted a flush edge, I'd simply glue on an extra bit of timber matching the uprights to create it, which would also hide the edge of the MDF.

I've always found that MDF is one of the more problematic materials to work accurately with handheld tools (powered or not)....but since it's not appearance grade, there's no defect that can't be filled with sufficient application of epoxy!

[Chris Parks]

Another thing that may help whichever method you use to cut MDF, make sure all the tools are very sharp as the board will fracture and break out if not. As pointed out earlier, accuracy using power tools is something that comes from long experience. I recently did a job with a chippy who could cut to any line free hand with an electric saw and think nothing of it. Following a marked line with either hand or machine tools is at first the hardest thing to do and deciding which of three options, leave the line in, leave it out, or follow it dead centre is something that needs to be practised. I like Paul Seller's method of creating a knife wall, look it up on you tube and practise. Blunt tools tend to follow the grain, sharp tools tend to follow the line.

[doug3030]

Its hard to tell from the photos for sure but I think the problem might have started out at the beginning of the project when the component parts were marked out and cut from the original sheet of MDF.

In photo 1, all the boards appear to be fairly square on the top end but the angles they present to each other may indicate that the bottom ends are not all cut parallel with the top ends. Either that or the surface they are resting on is not level?

If the component parts are not accurately laid out and cut square, you have no hope at all of making the joinery work, at least not if you want it to all match up and be square.

For even the most basic joinery to work you must follow the basics of preparing your stock and laying out the joint.

Pick an edge of your sheet of MDF and check that it is straight. NEVER assume, not even for a new sheet straight from Bunnings or wherever. Then check that the corner at at least one end of that edge is 90 degrees, then pick one square corner and make all measurements from the edges meeting at that corner.

When you can no longer work from that corner see if you can find another remaining corner that meets the criteria and use it, or cut yourself a new corner that you can use.

As I said at the start, I am not sure that this is where your problem started but the photos make me think it is possible.

Good luck with the project

Cheers

Doug

[Chris Parks]

Accurately marking out using good techniques is something that you need to get right before anything. A combination square can be set to a measurement and that measurement put on all the boards, set the next measurement and do the same without any changes to the square. Laying out each board in total is a recipe for variations and this is what you might have done?? Another trick is to use a steel rule as they tend to be more accurate than a tape and always use the same rule or tape, do not mix the measuring device if it can be avoided. For marking out long lengths on sheets or boards with a tape I lay the tape down and then leaving it there put a square across the top of the tape on the required dimension. This helps to minimise parallex error or tape movement as the tape is effectively clamped under the square.

[DaveTTC]

If i was going to do those cuts with one of the tools you mention it would be a circular saw. Ut i use one every day. Even then i would clean up with a hand saw an or chisel.

Jig saw. I only use it where one side does not matter and may score the front edge with a knife so as to keep a good dront edge. Then i use my saw upside down and watch the blade on the top of the board. In this case i dont care about the bottom. Might be scribing a bench top to a wall or cutting an insert for a sink etc

Great you are having a go.

Fixing could be done with a router and fence if that is an option available.

Hand saw is prob best as already said in orher posts

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Chris Parks]

For all the advice we give it really comes down to practise, get some off cuts and try marking and cutting with your chosen tool until you get two that are the same. Enjoy the learning, there is much enjoyment to be had from success.

[elanjacobs]

As others have said: jigsaws are far from accurate. You'd be better off marking and cutting by hand - it's a good basic skill to perfect

[abrogard]

Yep, it is just as said.. my basic marking out and cutting is at fault and it culminates in bad technique on the jigsaw which is the wrong tool anyway.

I haven't worked off one straight edge on the sheet of MDF from Bunnings - I've assumed the sheet was square and all sides parallel.

Then I've been sloppy putting my edge on the pencil lines - making perhaps a 2mm difference across the width of the board on the cut.

And then I haven't held the saw vertical and I've undercut sometimes. I'll post a pic showing the saw tooth effect I get now when I put those edges together.

I am now trying to figure out a jig to guide the router across the clamped bunch of shelves so's I can use it to cut the rebate. Or at least make a defining first cut at each end.

Maybe I should forget that and go straight for the hand saw. Which I might well do. And saw the rebates all in one across the clamped bunch.

But first I'll put the planer on the clamped bunch and get them all the same size and orientation by which I mean parallelogram or whatever they are if they're not square any more.

Planers are a hassle for me too. I keep taking off too much at one end. You've got to get the hang of lifting it off the end or clamping some waste wood on there or something, don't you? And you don't get any satisfactory shavings. And you don't get the sweet sound of a plane either. Grumble, grumble.

Might finish up reverting to the hand plane as I was taught in school all them yonks ago. But I like to try and get some little bit of mastery on all these modern machines. When you can use them you sure get something done quicktime.

I vaguely remember the tedium and sheer work of drilling lead holes by hand and then screwing screws down into them. We must have had strong wrists in them days.

I took a quick look at a bit of one of that guy's videos. The man with the knife fence. I'll
be looking at some more of them. He's easy to take.366985

[doug3030]

Yep, it is just as said.. my basic marking out and cutting is at fault and it culminates in bad technique on the jigsaw which is the wrong tool anyway.

I haven't worked off one straight edge on the sheet of MDF from Bunnings - I've assumed the sheet was square and all sides parallel.

Then I've been sloppy putting my edge on the pencil lines - making perhaps a 2mm difference across the width of the board on the cut.

Sheets of MDF or ply are generally straight and square, but sometimes not, so as I said earlier never assume.

Now take your narrowest board and straighten one edge, make the opposite edge parallel. use your square on the first edge you straightened to establish 90 degree corners. Make the remaining boards the same size as the first one by following the above procedure.

Now mark out your joinery but always reference from your original straight edge. If you reference from the opposite edge it will double any error in establishing the parallel edge.

I will tell you a little story about what happened to me several years ago. I was cutting a rectangle out of plywood on a tablesaw with a fence that I knew to be dead-on square. When I finished and checked it, the only square corner I had was at the start of the last cut. Due to inexperience and probably a bit of unclear thinking at the time, I proceeded to go around that piece of ply about three times to square it up but of course it just got worse.

The only thing I can think of that would have caused this is if there was something small like a piece of sawdust deflecting the fence a bit for the first three cuts.

Little things like that can be enough to ruin a project or cost you lots of time and, even worse, materials.

You will probably waste a bit of MDF sorting this one out but MDF is cheap and experience is valuable so you will finish up in front.

Good luck with the project

Doug

[Kuffy]

instead of trying to fix all the panels by clamping together and making the same size etc etc. just fix the smallest shelf to the point you are happy with. Then use that piece as a template for a flush trim bit in a router. just use clamps to hold the two pieces together and move the clamps as you go around or use double sided sticky tape to hold the two parts together temporarily. it will leave a internal radius in the corner of the checkouts which can be squared up with a chisel or even your jigsaw.

[Chris Parks]

Here is a video which shows how to make a guide to use with an electric handsaw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIeIZdrbz-Y
The guide you want is about 1 minute 20 secs in from the start. Check your sheet for square and use the guide to correct any problems. Be very careful as it is still easy to cut out of square using a guide, been there and done that and users of saw track systems use all sorts of tricks to get square sheets.

[chook]

If it is any comfort to you, you are not alone. Making beautiful things is very satisfying. It is also very difficult and can be very frustrating, especially when you compare the wonderful object in your imagination with the raggedy object on the work bench.

Three things have have helped me.

Firstly in keep constantly in mind the fact that I improve constantly.

Practice is invaluable. In 2015 I set my goal to cut perfect through and half blind dovetails. So I made heaps of them. Never got a perfect one but I got very close.

Lastly, I am in it for fun. I don't make any money out of it. If stuff does not work out then there is always next time. If anybody else does not like it to bad. In my shed I am answerable to no man. I am my own boss and it turns out I am a kind and forgiving boss.

[abrogard]

Well I'll keep going. Thanks all for the help. So much of power tool work seems to involve jigs. I already have a saw jig - or ' guide ' - like the one that guy shows on youtube but I still managed to cut at an angle.

Now I've been looking at jigs for the router, as I said. I like that adjustable dado jig (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmyGkW16EpI). I've already got a few jigs around the shed made up as I needed them. I need to take the time out to make an all-purpose thing like that.

I don't quite get the 'flush trim bit' in the router, kuffy. Is it something like the bearing guided router bit?

I'm not sure about them, either. I see the roller bearing can roll along a guide. So that would be the first shelf we're using as a template? How do we see to it that as we're plunging down we don't start routing wood out of that one? Before the bit gets down far enough to engage the bearing?

You lock it down there before beginning the cut? And then unlock, go deeper, lock again and cut more?

Is that the plan?

Everyone seems agreed that i should work each shelf one by one rather than clamp them together and try to work the stack. Right?

[DaveTTC]

Im having a wood working gtg near Horsham over the Australia Day weekend.

If you can make it there will be a number coming. You can bring a project or just chew the fat. Either way great opportunity to talk technique and have a demo's or the like.

If you were going ro work the stack i would likely do this with a belt sander for the long edges

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[doug3030]

Everyone seems agreed that i should work each shelf one by one rather than clamp them together and try to work the stack. Right?

Yes! you now have five pieces of timber that are all different when you want them all to be the same.

As I said before, make the smallest one the shape you want it and then use whatever method you like. All I gave you was broad directions so that you can experiment and learn as you go. You will learn a lot more about the basic skills if you fix up the layout of the first one then use proper layout techniques to make the other four the same than if you make one right and use template routing to fix the others up.

Cheers

Doug

[Kuffy]

I don't quite get the 'flush trim bit' in the router, kuffy. Is it something like the bearing guided router bit?

I'm not sure about them, either. I see the roller bearing can roll along a guide. So that would be the first shelf we're using as a template? How do we see to it that as we're plunging down we don't start routing wood out of that one? Before the bit gets down far enough to engage the bearing?



Yes, a bearing guided straight router bit. The bearing can be on the top of the bit or at the bottom, doesnt make much difference in this case. You make one shelf to the exact size any way you like including the corner checkouts. Then you clamp/stickytape that piece to the next shelf blank which will be 'close' to final dimension but slightly bigger, say 3mm longer and wider. Using the flush trim bearing guided bit, you can rout the edge of the new shelf blank in one pass to match the template/first shelf. its just MDF and you are only taking a small amount off. You dont need to plunge through material, you have clear access to the side of the panel. You just set the cutting depth to be ~26mm deep before you even turn the router on.

using flush trim bits are not 100% perfect. They are very very close but not 100%. So make sure you always use the same piece as the template so that you don't get compounding minor inaccuracy's from the difference in bearing diameter and cutting diameter on the router bit.

[abrogard]

Yes! you now have five pieces of timber that are all different when you want them all to be the same.
Doug

But if I have them clamped together as in the photo then if I work on the whole block then everything is identical. Not five different ones but five the same. Unless you mean five of them the same but all wrong. Is that what you mean?

p.s. I got one of those bearing guided flush routers. The only one I could find in the whole town. It has the bearing at the end. Meaning I'll have to put the template piece on the bottom if I understand what's doing correctly.

Cost me $30 or more. Then I see some on ebay as cheap as $5. Do those cheapies work? Should I get some of them in or are they just complete rubbish, not worth getting?

I can believe it if they are. Got some taps and dies cheap from ebay one time, more than one time, like more than one attempt, and they wouldn't work at all, total rubbish. Thought it might be my fault. bad technique, etc. Got a good set at Aussie prices (ouch) but then was able to do the job no trouble at all, again and again. Yep. So I know there's pure rubbish out there.

[Christos]

But if I have them clamped together as in the photo then if I work on the whole block then everything is identical. Not five different ones but five the same. Unless you mean five of them the same but all wrong. Is that what you mean?.....

By what I am reading Doug is suggesting that you get one done to be correct and use that one piece as the template for the other four pieces. The second part of your question is sort of answered by yourself or at least considered by what you have said, as it can be very frustrating if you do make a mistake as that mistake will be on all five pieces.



..... Then I see some on ebay as cheap as $5. Do those cheapies work? Should I get some of them in or are they just complete rubbish, not worth getting?

I can believe it if they are. Got some taps and dies cheap from ebay one time, more than one time, like more than one attempt, and they wouldn't work at all, total rubbish. Thought it might be my fault. bad technique, etc. Got a good set at Aussie prices (ouch) but then was able to do the job no trouble at all, again and again. Yep. So I know there's pure rubbish out there.

This one is a little bit harder to suggest as I have never purchased any router bits from ebay. I was once given a router as a gift and what was included in the box were router bits. On one occasion I had installed one of these bits in a table mounted router. I switched on the router along with the dust extraction and while I was watching this I saw the top of the bit disappear. It had broken off even before I even came close to ever using it. If I did not have the dust extraction on where would this have gone? Every single one of those bits got tossed in the bin.

Before I tossed the rubbish out I found that I was only using a couple of profiles. I basically purchase when I needed them, and if it cost $30 then I have to bear it(pun intended :U ).

[ian]

I seem to have a hopeless technique for cutting simple joints - for cutting anything.

I need some help, some guidance.

Here are five shelves 450mm I've made. The corners are cut out to take 40mm x 20mm timber routed out 10mm.

Very simple. Cut the shelves with my power saw using a guide.
Cut the corners out marking out carefully and then using a jigsaw. I don't have anything else for the job - except a hand saw. I don't have a table saw.

From these photos you can see I don't even have the shelves perfect. But they are not too bad.

But the cut outs are hopeless. They are all over the place. I don't even know how I can fix them. I can put a sander on them perhaps. Keep them together in a block like in the photo and sand till all equal. Or use a rasp across there. In the old days it would have had to have been a chisel job I guess. Perhaps I should go back to that.

I find it hard to see, bending over the jigsaw, my glasses slip down my nose, the shadows make seeing hard - but that's the only way to do it, isn't it? Can't use a guide, I've found that out.

The saw cut will wander if driven along a guide. Googled and found that's commonplace apparently with jigsaws. Though maybe not with such a small cut.

What would real woodworkers advise me to do about doing such jobs from scratch and fixing this job? And give up isn't an option. :)
if I correctly understand your design, your corner cut outs are OK.
Yes they are all a bit off square, but that will all be hidden within the 10mm slot you're cutting into the uprights.

If I were doing what you're doing, I'd also use a jig saw -- but probably not a $49 "special" with a $1 general purpose blade. I typically expect to paying between $3 and $5 for a decent jig saw blade. I find that with this quality of blade, my cuts are generally straight and true.

also an extra light helps :)


I see others have responded in respect to getting the shelves all the same size with parallel sides.

[abrogard]

Now my router has given up. Bad switch. So it is all on hold for a while.

Did slow down yesterday and actually sit down on the job with a chisel and a rasp and looked at one corner. Now that's a change of technique. Sitting down with the job at eye height. Slowing down that much. Giving up the power tools and looking at it with simple hand tools.

Found it quite pleasant and effective. Got one corner just about exactly right: 10mm x 40mm right on.

Reminds of what one poster said ' I do it for love not for money..' to paraphrase.

I do it all for love. And to save money on the home. But I've been in the habit of going at it like I'm doing it for the boss and a boss who wants it done pronto with every mistake a major hassle.

Like I'm doing it for love but I've left the love out. Bit silly.

So I'm thinking I better slow down a bit and enjoy it more, take my time over things. Like that long cut with the power saw taking off a 450mm strip along the side of a 1200mm piece of mdf. Going at it hell for leather I finish up with a cut that isn't square. And trying to do too much. Because I have to hold the strip as it comes off at the same time as pushing the saw I lose careful control.

So I need to slow down and put some kind of prop there to help me catch the strip as it comes off.

And get a better jigsaw blade as suggested.

And use this bearing flush router bit (when I get another router).

And use 'knife hedge' and marks instead of rough and ready pencil marks. My marking out is rough. The pencil point itself may throw me out. Because I expect it to mark here but it marks there instead. Something to do with how it is sharpened, the shape of it.

And then lining up with this side of the mark or that side or right on it - would you believe I still don't have a settled down method of working for myself?

I'll get there. The situation isn't as bad as I make it sound, I guess. I get things made and they look alright and they're sturdy. I just got terribly thrown off when I saw what the stack looked like when I put them all together and looked at them: no two surfaces matching, either on the long edges or on the corner cut outs. Amazing. And one over a little and another under a little making a total difference of maybe up to 3mm. Shocking.

But not the end of the world. Just a summary lesson to me.

Thanks for all the advice. It is well appreciated.

:)