Sherwood dust extractor/cyclone 1 or 2 HP? 10amp -15 amp circuit?

[Bodgy]

I need to put in a dust extractor. It seems that the most sensible choice is the Sherwood 2HP 'economy' unit from Timbecon @ $249. THis can relatively easily be converted to a cyclone. All the advice on cyclones says 650 CPM is minimum.

My problem is that if I run the 2HP (1500 watt) unit with any of the grunty tools (saw on Triton, compound mitre saw, big router) which are rated 1200 watts then I exceed the 10AMp circuit to the shed.

Check my calc 1500+1200=2700/240= 11.25 amps. I think this is correct?

Hence I need 15 amps to the shed or I get a 1 HP dust extractor which collective wisdom does not recommend.

Is going to a 15 amp circuit simply a matter of changing the 10amp circuit breaker to 15amp, or would the wiring need to be upgraded to something heavier? If so how do I tell what the current wiring is rated at?

For a small shed (2x3 metres) would a 1HP unit do? Maybe forget the cyclone addition?

The shed is 50 meters from the house fuse box and has a catenary type cable coming to it down in the valley. It would be very expensive to get the cable upgraded if required (or run another circuit in the flex conduit)

The dust extractor will sit in a smaller adjacent shed housing the garden tools, paint etc., so I dont really care if the non cyclone 1HP unit doesn't capture all the fine dust. So long as it gets it away from me and collects the chips and shavings, saving me from surrepticiously borrowing HI's flash, Scandinavian vacuum cleaner and preserving the current state of armed neutrality between us.

In the medium term I will have a much larger shed, so the 2HP makes more sense but I need something to save my lungs now.

Help/advice much appreciated before the 2HP Sherwood goes off 'special'

Bodgy
Even fools are right sometimes - WSC

[Stuart]

Check your saw/router ratings - my Triton stuff is rated 2400W.

Granted that is peak load, so if the saw or router is not at maximum capacity, then it doesn't draw anywhere near this much power. Starting current does peak a lot higher.

I'm not a greenie, so will let them reply to the techo stuff, but why not set the dust extractor to kick in a couple of secs after the saw or router are started? That way you get past the peak of the starting current for the tools before the extractor does its thing.

[Bodgy]

Check your saw/router ratings - my Triton stuff is rated 2400W.

Granted that is peak load, so if the saw or router is not at maximum capacity, then it doesn't draw anywhere near this much power. Starting current does peak a lot higher.
.
Stuart

Thanks for that, whilst the WC is genuine orange, I confess the saw is not, nor the router.

I don't quite understand the 'peak' load issue. Are you saying that a saw sold as 1200 watts (or whatever) only draws this 1200 watts on start up? Thence running at less? If so, I don't have a problem, as I intend to put a big push button type on/off swtch for the dust collector on the ceiling, centrally. Hence I can reach from anywhere in the shed with a max of one step - staggered starting is easily achieved. I understand these things are very noisy, so it goes off once the tool has done the job.

Also on examiniation the circuit breaker in the fuse box is stamped 20 amps. The sparky installed a double power point, so I guess if the DC and the tool in use are on different power points I should be OK.

Bodgy

[zenwood]

Bodgy,

Theres an extensive discussion of tablesaw/dust collector electrical issues here:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=19125

[Bodgy]

Having read thru the thread (thanks Zen) and slowly assimilated the detailed but cogent contributions, particularly by TO, all my questions are answered.

Combining this with the info from the Bill Penz site there seems no reason that the completed cyclone dust extractor won't both suck the chrome off a tow ball and exhale pristine air. All the while avoiding melting the wiring and blacking out the street. Nothing, of course, except my questionable ability to put it all into practice.

Thanks

Bodgy

[Schtoo]

Stu in Tokyo (I'll send a link to his site if you can't find it. ;) ) just fired up his new cyclone he made in the dungeon. He stuck through a bunch of chips, and at the end of it, he had enough dust in the filters/catch to make a finger dusty, that's it. Most of it got caught in the cyclone.

I would figure that sanding would prolly make more very fine dust, but for regular cutting and milling, most of it's going to get caught in the cyclone.

Now, about the electrical to the shed. What do you really have out there? Is there a circuit dedicated to the shed, or it is running other stuff too? If you run the saw and the dusty at the same time, you 'should' be ok. Simple fact being, that each outlet is good for 10A, not just the circuit, that means every point you can plug into should be able to support 10A. But it also depends on what kind of fuse/circuit breaker you have on that circuit and what else is running on it. Lights, other things like radio or whatever.

At startup, shouldn't be too much of a problem as long you you don't hit them both at the exact same time. Also, figuring that the dusty uses an induction motor, start it first, then fire up the other tool that uses brushes in it, ie: saw, router, etc. You might also hit some problems if you use a safety switch, but worry about that if it happens, chances are it wont. If it does, more than likely a sensitive switch. Don't worry about it now.

Anyway, details details details! I can'[t foresee a big problem, and any that pop up can usually be circumvented anyway. ;)

[Bodgy]

Now, about the electrical to the shed. What do you really have out there? Is there a circuit dedicated to the shed, or it is running other stuff too? If you run the saw and the dusty at the same time, you 'should' be ok. Simple fact being, that each outlet is good for 10A, not just the circuit, that means every point you can plug into should be able to support 10A. But it also depends on what kind of fuse/circuit breaker you have on that circuit and what else is running on it. Lights, other things like radio or whatever.

;)
Schtoo

I crawled around last night checking all this. From the house fuse box (earth leakage circuit breaker) I have a 20 Amp dedicated circuit to the shed, which goes about 50 metres in a flexible conduit catenary. In the shed I have a double, outdoor type power point. Off each outlet I have 2 x 5 plug power boards, connected in series.

I routinely run a fluoro overhead and usually one of three halogen spots (100 watts I think tho could be wrong, pretty bright anyway). I only ever have one spotty on at a time, over the bench/machine I'm using. I cannot forsee any circumstance where I'm running more than one power tool at a time, plus the Dusty/Cyclone, with the possible exception of a soldering iron or hot glue gun. There is no radio nor heater, tho I'll put in a radio if only for the cricket.

Hence as long as I balance the load between the two primary outlets and stagger the start up, I should be OK??? Yes?

Ooops, forgot the compressor. Possibly once in a blue moon (or a Pommy win in an Ashes test) this may kick in when the saws going.

Each of the 5 plug powerboards has an overload botton. I know this works cause when arc welding if the electrode sticks then the button jumps out and power fails.

I guess this is another safeguard.

Look forward to the photos of the amazing, if a little anal retentive, Stu's working cyclone. I'm jealous really, wish I had the patience and application to do something so fine.

Bodgy

[Schtoo]

50m huh? Take a look at the cable itself, how big is it? If it's wide and plastic covered, about 15mm wide and 6mm thick, then I do not recommend that you use both dusty and saw at the same time. Waay too much voltage drop, because that outer sheath size means 2.5mm2 cable, and it's not really big enough to send 20A that far. If it's bigger, then I suspect you should be ok, but as I don't have my reg books here, I can't say 100% for sure. Plus I haven't been running any cable for a while, so... ;)

If the cable is up to it, then I can't see any serious problems, aside from ditching them power boards. The overload is a thermal cutout, and it doesn't do much more than be a right PITA most of the time. If you can swing it, get a hold of a good multi outlet box and use that, or put in some more GPOs.

When running either the dusty or anything else, do you need the compressor for anything? No? Then turn it off. Real nice to have the saw stop when you are ripping something large and hard, and have the saw bite just enough to fling it back at you. Just unplug it.

Still concerned about the length of that cable run though. Should be ok, but still, if the cables not big enough, it's going to be a headache, and not just because you keep burning up motors.

Take a peek, see how big it is. I'm hoping it's closer to 20mm wide and 8-10mm thick.

[Bodgy]

Schtoo

Really appreciate the time taken to help me out and would like to reciprocate, however unless you have burning issues with Medieval British History, Ocean Sailing or boring business stuff I'm pretty much useless.

I'll get up in the roof and check the cable size. The catenary etc was professionally installed and is well weatherproofed so I hesitate to fiddle with it.

Assuming it is the smaller cable you mention, one last question. If I go with the 1HP Dusty, all will be well? Compressor off, of course.

This is the worst option, very short term. Although adequate for now, I hope to expand to a decent sized shed in the medium term. I'll also investigate the cost for a sparky to run a higher capacity cable. Thats gonna be problematic (read expensive) as pulling new cable thru 50m of conduit may be impossible.

Re ditching the powerboards, I will, but not for GPO's. I have the boards attached to house bricks, each brick backed with rubber sheeting (ex car mats). These are very practical, being portable yet heavy enough to unplug with one hand. I'll check out the other option.

Bodgy

[Schtoo]

Nope, no need with that kinda history, although it is interesting. I hate having water above my neck and business stuff, well, actually... No, not enough of that to need help with. :D

Ok then, if it was done properly, then the cable should be sized right to carry full load all the way. Check it, and if it's not big enough, then start asking questions, but not here. ;) Should be ok, but there are some cowboys out there. If you do need new cable, then it's not a big problem pulling through 50m of conduit, as long as the conduit is in good condition. Longest run I have done was over 300m, and that was with cables that were about as big of your conduit, 4 of them. No problems really, so don't worry about it if it needs doing.

I wouldn't go with the smaller dusty, otherwise you will prolly have to end up ditching it later for the bigger unit. Better to buy the right size now to run the cyclone because if I understand correctly, running a cyclone with only 1hp is next to useless.

The portable outlets aren't just extra GPOs, they are typically a box with 2 double GPOs on either side, an ELCB on one end and a nice handle on top. Tough, but can be pricy. Much better option that those cheapo strips, believe me. Especially when I've seen more than a few looking like black rats after the fact. ;)

Seriously, grab the big dusty now. Shouldn't be a serious problem, provided the compressor isn't going to kick in when the dusty and anything are running. If it is, then make a small investment in you new shed now by running much bigger cable at least, just the cable though, and run your GPO's on the big cable. Then when your shed grows, you can stick in a sub board in the shed and be done with electrical problems like this for good. :)

[TrevorOwen]

Bodgy

As you gave me a mention I couldn't help but come in on your question.

As I understand your situation you have-

20A rated circuit from the switchboard of your house.
50 metre circuit length.
The circuit connecting to a double (weatherproof) power outlet only.
Each power outlet (of the double) rated at 10A.
2 - 2 x 5 outlet power boards connected in series with a single connection to each of the power outlets (weatherproof type).
Don't worry about the 50 metres of cable from the house to the shed unless it was installed by a dodgy electrician. If installed correctly then the cable should have been sized to minimise voltage drop over the 50 metre run in accordance with the SAA Wiring Rules. The 20A fuse or CB has been installed to protect the cable which must therefore at least be that rating (20A) or higher.

Each outlet of the double power outlet is rated at 10A and must not be exceeded. Because of your circuit configuration, this means that by connecting loads up to 2400W to each outlet you are at capacity of the outlets and the 20A circuit. By exceeding those ratings you risk tripping of the circuit protection or at worst fire.

Your configuration of power boards is risky to say the least. Remember that they are only rated at 10A total. They are not designed for heavy load environments but for bedrooms and the like where you are connecting bed lamps, digital clocks etc. That is, very low load devices.

Getting back to your real question about a 2HP dust extractor. I would connect it directly to one of the power outlets (of the weatherproof double) and connect your other tool and light to a power board (connected to the other power outlet) if you have to but watch that you don't exceed 10A or 2400W.

I hope this helps.

Regards from Adelaide
Trevor

[Bodgy]

Thank you Trevor

You have accurately summed up the situation, however on exactly measuring the catenary length it is probably closer to 40 metres allowing for curvature hence I guess a bit less voltage drop.

I will gradually replace the el cheapo power boards with the better quality devices you and others recommend. I have always ensured that there were never two hungry tools on the same GPO.

I install the 2HP Dusty next week and will report if it all goes pear shaped, assuming I dont get fried or cremated in the process.

Bodgy