Saw Report 7

[pmcgee]

I'll open the batting with some info from the UK ...

"BadAxeToolWorks
La Crosse, WI, United States

Derek Jones, editor of Britain's Furniture & Cabinetmaking Magazine has released another article we penned for 'The Saw doctor Will See You Now' series, which is found on page 60 of the January 2016 issue.

This article underscores the importance of sharpening to joint, and the quality of hammer-set to achieve consistent set precision (trumps a plier-set every day of the week).

Next month's issue will delve into our method for clock-sharpening a saw, a simplified frame of reference when sharpening saws that constitutes the foundation of our saw sharpening seminars. Also look for Anne Briggs-Bohnett's excellent article on the importance of and techniques for squaring stock on page 68. thanks for your support, Derek and crew over at F&C!"

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I have noted in an old Spear & Jackson catalogue the claim that their hammer-set-by-hand was of a superior quality.

I imagine it could be fast when you have your eye in ... but I'm pretty damn sure I could make a fine mess of it. :)

Paul

[pmcgee]

I was forgetting I had some photos to share after a box landed here after xmas. A *half-empty* box I might add (lots of packing noodles :~).
Weird really - maybe there's some connection with the performance of our dollar? :rolleyes:

How do you manage to forget there is a semi-largish crosscut saw headed your way? :shrug:
(Very well freighted by the vendor.)

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Assembled ...

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and a leather saw-sheath with a pretty small Keen Kutter panel saw that fitted ...

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[rob streeper]

Does the article offer any data?

[pmcgee]

Does the article offer any data?
I haven't seen the article - just the "press release"

[Luke Maddux]

I can't read the article on my phone and I won't have computer access for a while, so forgive me if my question is redundant, but why is hammer setting supposedly better, according to the article? I mean the pliers are specifically designed to put consistent set on each tooth.

Im like you, Paul. I think that I would just be reaching the goal of ruining my saw teeth faster by attempting to set with a hammer.

[rob streeper]

I haven't seen the article - just the "press release"It'll be interesting if somebody posts a discussion of the article itself. News releases are too much fluff. A current example: Scientists struggle to stay grounded after possible gravitational wave signal | Science | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/12/gravitation-waves-signal-rumoured-science)

[DSEL74]

I'm speculating here but the pliers bend the teeth against the built-in anvil. Maybe this produces a fold like sharp crease where a hammer set bends and possibly moves some metal??

[pmcgee]

When they say 'hammer-set' it is "semi-automated" ... there are many old devices in this spirit ...

Bad Axe Seminars (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/bad-axe-seminars)

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as opposed to the freehand version ... 368322


Actually ... I can start to imagine the freehand version being fast and consistent.

[pmcgee]

A more rudimentary machine ...

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The Saw Set Collector's Resouce - Hammer Saw Set #4 (http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/saw%20set%20website/hammer4.htm)

[hiroller]

The saw sets used by Bad Axe look like Disston Star saw sets.
According to the patent they were designed to be foot operated!
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[IanW]

It's hard to see that there is any difference in principle of pliers vs the various 'hammer' methods shown above. In all cases, the tooth is being pushed against a solid surface that determines the final angle of the tooth. However, there would be a big difference in speed. I'm sure someone who did it daily could hammer set a row of teeth many times faster than I could do it with pliers. Over the course of a day, that would amount to many times more saws set! As to the superiority of one method over another, I very much doubt you'd pick any difference in use, provided both were done well. One thing I am sure of - like Luke, the thought of my attempting to set fine teeth by hitting them with a small hammer brings visions some very strange-looking saw teeth!

Pliers setting is certainly not foolproof, though. When I first started setting my saws, I had two problems. One was that I tended to grossly over-set. That was easy enough to fix once I realised that what I'd been told about the numbers on the rotating anvil corresponding to the tpi is rubbish! The other was more puzzling - I often found I ended up with a slight curve to the blade after setting a previously-straight saw. I figured eventually that there are at least two contributing factors: 1, not squeezing the set consistently (your hands start to tire on a long run of teeth!) and 2, not placing the 'hammer' in the same spot relative to the tooth on each side of the saw. Either or both can result in adding a touch more tension on one side than the other, & it doesn't take much difference over the length of the blade to introduce some curvature!

Takes a bit of practice to do anything 'properly', I guess....
Cheers,

[rob streeper]

I'm inspired to do some comparisons, I have several different types of saw set and it would be interesting to see what differences manifest in the products.

[hiroller]

I decided to purchase a copy of the article. As Ian has mentioned, some of the benefits of hammer setting covered basically:
1. Speed of hammer over slow bend of pliers gives a better bend. Less chance of breaking.
2. Ability to set all day with a hammer set without getting tired
3. Consistency of set - easier with hammer set
From someone who shapens and sets saws all day, I guess it comes with merit.
Bad Axe use the above Disston Star saw set and one other which I'll have to go back and look at.
There is more in the article, you can purchase a download version of the mag for about $5.

[SGBarnes]

I am sure everyone has visited the following Toolemera Press resource (the Tyzack "Servicing your Saws" Booklet information on saw tooth hammer setting is very good) - click on the images:

Library - Sharpening & Care of Tools (http://toolemera.com/Books%20%26%20Booklets/library-sharpeni.html)

[pmcgee]

A quick "throwback thursday" look to IanW's mango cabinet ... ummm saw cabinet ...

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/talk-116626-post1144796#post1144796

[pmcgee]

I updated IanW's saw measurements to thou's of an inch, which I can relate to ...

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135200&d=1271816356 369301

[IanW]

A quick "throwback thursday" look to IanW's mango cabinet ... ummm saw cabinet ...

Hmm, a few more saws have been squashed in there since that pic was taken, Paul! I wish I could make a bigger one, but there just isn't enough wall-space...
:U

[hiroller]

I found a copy of the Disston Hand-Book for Lumberman from 1902 online.
https://ia601400.us.archive.org/19/items/handbookforlumbe00diss/handbookforlumbe00diss.pdf
While it is mostly focussed on circular saws (quite a lot of detail on tensioning), there are sections on crosscut saws, band saws and hand saws.
This includes a dozen or so pages on filing and setting hand saws.
It lists its premium saw set as the Diston Star hammer set.
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[hiroller]

And here is an Instragram video of one in action at Badaxe:
https://www.instagram.com/p/4ZhSEhh4We/?taken-by=badaxe6

[hiroller]

Actually, I now think the video is the very similar Seymour Smith saw set.
The Saw Set Collector's Resource - Seymour Smith & Son (http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/saw%20set%20website/Seymour%20Smith.htm)

[pmcgee]

While I think of it ... a crosscut filing guide idea from Don Wilwol ...

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[planemaker]

I have the H. Aikens hammer saw set (fig. 10) shown in the top left of the following attachment. I purchased it over 12 months ago and still haven't trialed it.

The attachment also details other types of manufactured hammer sets.

Stewie;

http://members.acmenet.net/~con12a/saw%20set%20website/morgan2.pdf

[DSEL74]

Are these hammers sets common to find? I see heaps of the various plier types about.

[pmcgee]

I posted this pic quite a while back. It came from a Donnelly auction most likely.

I can see an advantage in the "spring-post" model ... this has a side-to-side sway of 10mm at the head ... needs shimming or other repair before it could be serviceable proposition.

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[DSEL74]

Are they part of your collection?

[pmcgee]

Are these hammers sets common to find? I see heaps of the various plier types about.
In the US maybe ... even england for more 'basic' rather than mechanical approaches - I'm guessing.


Are they part of your collection?
The foot-operated thing is. :)

[pmcgee]

Another good saw sharpening video (new to me) ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVcf6tEmkNs

[IanW]

Can't figure out why someone who sharpens saws regularly would persist with an under-sized saw vise!? Maybe you get used to it, but I hate having to stop & move the saw, I lose my rhythm.....

Cheers,

[Sawdust Maker]

... One thing I am sure of - like Luke, the thought of my attempting to set fine teeth by hitting them with a small hammer brings visions some very strange-looking saw teeth!

...

The latest in saw setup - the variable set saw! For those whom (insert appropriate user here)

[pmcgee]

Saw Sling. (not mine)

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[pmcgee]

Handsaw Quiver by Amy Harrington McAuley (http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-SawRead/z_contReading/ah-sawQuiver/ah-sawQuiver-01.asp)

[pmcgee]

Did someone already post this before?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsv0sT5HgR4

[hiroller]

Wow!

[Bushmiller]

I hope he won, 'cos I'd hate him to be a saw loser.

:rolleyes:

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Paul,
That's was bad.
Dave bad joke way.
Lol

[pmcgee]

I didn't get around to posting many details from the box that started this thread ... I think. :?
My cross-border saw-smuggling activities are much wound down now. There are more books incoming than tools.

But I can present these few ...

A Wheeler, Madden & Clemson saw. Handle shape (prominent 'beak') indicates a bit of age.
The saw bolts have 1869 patent date ... and Glover bolts began 1886/7
Ebay provided some pics that are likely the same as mine ...

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[pmcgee]

A Harvey Peace saw - or most of it :)

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CE Jennings "New York Saw Co" ... concave toothline ... Not sure what the second line says. I think I have another NYSC around.

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I guess this is a BMT-patent tooth ... see http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/bmt-patent-teeth-171851
but it's in a pretty ordinary setting compared to Daryl Weir's nice example.

I won't be sharpening it up any time soon. :)

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and a nice handle ... maybe 1850-ish ... maybe S&J or earlyish american ... fits the blade like a glove. :p

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[pmcgee]

Also arrived ... some reading ...


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a couple brass hinges ...

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two 8in throw braces and small twist drills for brace ...

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and a nice 604.

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[rob streeper]

Paul,

Are any of your 1850 era saws pictured above taper ground?

Thanks,
Rob

[Bushmiller]

Paul

Thanks for posting pix of that lot. It's amazing how much there is out there that we didn't realise we needed! I like those woodworking books and that S & J (?) handle looks a treat.

Regards
Paul

[pmcgee]

A S&J of the approximate type I hypothesised for the handle (at the top) ... and several other identified old examples ...

Saws: Restoring, Collecting, Using – My 7 Month Journey - by summerfi @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community (http://lumberjocks.com/summerfi/blog/41126)

... although actually, that handle:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/vs-lumberjocks.com/n5obpwo.jpg vs http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=395076&d=1474691166&thumb=1

doesn't have the foetus- or squashed-egg-shaped inner-grip void. This (above left) is more of a fullish oval.

I tend to associate the "foetus grip" with american saws mid 1800s, but I have a suspicion I have seen S&Js too in that shape.

Paul

[pmcgee]

Atkins 'Universal' ... probably won't be rushing out to buy :no:

Premium Quality Sharp Antique Atkins NO 93 Universal SAW Vintage OLD Tool 224 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PREMIUM-Quality-SHARP-Antique-ATKINS-No-93-Universal-SAW-Vintage-Old-Tool-224-/201675587987?hash=item2ef4cd4193)

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[rob streeper]

Is the engraving pressed or carved into these handles? I've seen a number for sale and almost all are heavily cracked.

[pmcgee]

Is the engraving pressed or carved into these handles? I've seen a number for sale and almost all are heavily cracked.
The floral pattern was pressed I've been told. At first I figured more elaborate = more work = earlier, but no.

[pmcgee]

A few more ...

A hack saw

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"Liberty Bell" warranted superior ... from the Supplee-Biddle hardware company.
Difficult to capture with just a small light with a tissue over it :)

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a bare Henry Disston #7

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an' the ol' Chipaway No 90 :)

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[pmcgee]

I kinda feel like I could have posted this already ... ?? :youcrazy:

The Renaisance Woodworker ,,, for 2 hours ... on saws ...

intro level ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTB4Ghxwwvk

[hiroller]

So Paul, did you watch it all?

[pmcgee]

Yes, in a few chunks. Some of it was listening while driving.
I realised I had thought of posting it, but left off until I heard it all.

It's ok - it's a talk at WIA, probably to power-tool folks - so there's a certain 'presentation' flavour to it.
And some opinion-subject-to-question maybe :)
But good enough to add to the listen sometime list of someone who is interested in the topic.

Cheers,
Paul

[planemaker]

Bad news with the video Paul. I only lasted 45 sec before I felt the need to turn it off.

He sounds too much like a yank motivational speaker.

[hiroller]

Stewie, I don't think there is much you could learn from a video like this.
You could be presenting it.

[pmcgee]

Paul Sellers ... setting xcut saws. Only about 10min but I haven't watched it yet.

I think it requires registering to the site.

https://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/2016/12/saw-sharpening-crosscut-setting/

[pmcgee]

Bad news with the video Paul. I only lasted 45 sec before I felt the need to turn it off.
He sounds too much like a yank motivational speaker.
I don't think that's it ... more nervousness at giving a talk, IMO.
He has experience on YouTube, but I felt this was different for him.

The actual sawing demo part starts about 1:30:00 and is alright, I think.
He makes a good demo of all the directions that your arm can move unhelpfully.
And he has "listen out for the rattle" in his bullet-points, which is a good pointer.

I meant to reply earlier - I can't now remember if he talks about how subtle movements and rotations of your hand can help and hinder the way the blade runs through the kerf and the cut.

Cheers,
Paul

[pmcgee]

Saw set & jointer ;)

Vintage Speed Jointer And Saw Set With File & Instructions Made In USA | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Speed-Jointer-And-Saw-Set-With-File-amp-Instructions-Made-In-USA-/282531211360?)

Paul

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[rob streeper]

Is there much use of steel toothed circular blades these days?

[Bushmiller]

Actually Rob I snap them up whenever I can get them for free.

To my mind they are the best method of cutting corrugated (or other roofing) iron.

Make very certain you remember to reverse the blade so the back of the tooth is doing all the cutting and wear ear plugs and ear muffs (and safety eye protection of course). It is a prerequisite that you don' mind noise. These blades will outlast a fibre cutting disc twenty or thirty times over.

Paul's link is to quite nice device and very well presented, although the jointer looks more the type used for hand saws. Not quite sure how that would work on a circular saw.

Regards
Paul

[IanW]

..... the jointer looks more the type used for hand saws. Not quite sure how that would work on a circular saw....

Me too neither. Best way I know to joint a circular saw is to run the blade (again, backwards ), against a stone for a few seconds or however long it takes to get a bright spot on each tooth. Haven't done that for more than 30 years, it's been at least that long since I switched exclusively to TCT blades. I do remember how sweetly a freshly-sharpened steel blade cut, though. For about a couple of metres, after which you could feel it dulling rapidly!

Cheers,

[pmcgee]

the jointer looks more the type used for hand saws. Not quite sure how that would work on a circular saw.
Paul

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[pmcgee]

Those Donnelly dudes again ... just one lot ... :~

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:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Paul

[Bushmiller]

OK Paul

What's in there? Details. Details

:D

Regards
Paul

[pmcgee]

OK Paul
What's in there? Details. Details
:D
Regards
Paul
Hahaha ... no, not mine ... just a pic posted online showing one entry in an imminent auction.
Work & family have capped the unholy urges ... for now ... :)
Cheers,
Paul