Squeaking Floor Board help please!!!!

[Marion W]

I live in WA and have an older A frame home which has wooden floorboards upstairs covered over with carpet. The house is on the market but the Agent is saying that the biggest objection is the noise of the squeaking floor boards upstairs! I can't afford to have the carpet taken up and try and fix the noise that way and the only thing I have found that may help is produced in the USA - Squeaky Floor and a similar product.

Des anyone know if this is either available over here or if there is another product or even another solution that isn't going to cost an arm and a leg?

Any bright ideas or suggestions would be gratefully welcomed.

Thanks, in hope,

Marion

[artful bodger]

If you can see the joists the floor boards are attached to from underneath/downstairs you may be able to drive in small wedges where the floor boards have come loose from the joists. This is often what causes squeaking. The squeaky floor product smells a bit like snake oil.

[Marion W]

Thanks artful bodger,
No - don't think I can actually see the joists - all of the downstairs rooms have beams and there doesn't look to be an space where a wedge would fit in - thanks for the thought though.

[rwbuild]

If you can locate where the floor joists are, as previously posted are they visible from underneath, or, peal back the carpet in 1 corner about 600mm and you will see the rows of nails then measure from there 450 centres, just a question, is it sheet flooring or strip flooring. You can then either screw straight through the carpet or nail (galvanised, they grip better) at an angle about 10 deg from vertical. Also it can be fixed by using a nail gun (fitout, not framing) set the depth adjuster to maximum and shoot straight through the carpet into the floor and joist again at an angle off vertical.

Using wedges is an option BUT MUST BE GLUED and do not over drive them, just tight enough to stop the squeak. Cut the tail off flush with joist when glue is dry.

[artful bodger]

What is attached to the top side of the beams?

[Marion W]

If you can locate where the floor joists are, as previously posted are they visible from underneath, or, peal back the carpet in 1 corner about 600mm and you will see the rows of nails then measure from there 450 centres, just a question, is it sheet flooring or strip flooring. You can then either screw straight through the carpet or nail (galvanised, they grip better) at an angle about 10 deg from vertical. Also it can be fixed by using a nail gun (fitout, not framing) set the depth adjuster to maximum and shoot straight through the carpet into the floor and joist again at an angle off vertical.

Using wedges is an option BUT MUST BE GLUED and do not over drive them, just tight enough to stop the squeak. Cut the tail off flush with joist when glue is dry.

Thanks rwbuild,
I would not have a clue about the floor underneath and my huge learning curve has not got me into drills, joists and screws or nail guns! I am going to obviously have to find someone to do it for me I think but the people I have spoken to over here so far don't seem to have any idea apart from pulling the carpet up which is going to be a major expense that I can't really afford. Thank you for the ideas - had I been 20 years younger I might have tried to tackle this myself but have only just managed to work out reticulation problems!!!
Thank you anyway, I will keep that in case I find anyone who could tackle it
Cheers,
Marion

[Marion W]

Plasterboard - would that be right?

[artful bodger]

Plasterboard - would that be right?
I doubt it would be plasterboard if you can see the beams from underneath/downstairs. That would suggest there is plasterboard between the beams and the flooring above which does not make sense. Maybe the flooring is a sheet type flooring rather than floorboards and the underside has just been painted.?
If you were to get someone walk slowly around upstairs where you know it is creaky while you watch and listen carefully downstairs you should be able to see and hear where the creaking is coming from. If you can detect this annoying source of creaking then try packing a bit of suitable material on top of the beam and under whatever it is that sits on the beam to take up the slack. It is not rocket science and should be a pretty simple thing to do.

[Marion W]

I doubt it would be plasterboard if you can see the beams from underneath/downstairs. That would suggest there is plasterboard between the beams and the flooring above which does not make sense. Maybe the flooring is a sheet type flooring rather than floorboards and the underside has just been painted.?
If you were to get someone walk slowly around upstairs where you know it is creaky while you watch and listen carefully downstairs you should be able to see and hear where the creaking is coming from. If you can detect this annoying source of creaking then try packing a bit of suitable material on top of the beam and under whatever it is that sits on the beam to take up the slack. It is not rocket science and should be a pretty simple thing to do.

Ah - well - I will have to wait until I get a visitor for the walking around. I managed to get on a small step ladder and tried to put a piece of paper between the beam and the ?board but there doesn't seem to be any gap. I will have to try and take a photo of the downstairs ceiling to see if that gives you a better idea - sorry - I am def not a handyman!!!

[Marion W]

Not the best of photos - do these help though?

[aldav]

A long way from your usual home ground rwbuild and the photo's could be clearer, but could that be caneite between the ceiling joists? It would seem likely that those ceiling joists are also the joists for the upstairs floor in which case your suggestion for a remedy sounds like a cracker to me. :2tsup:

Isn't it interesting that potential buyers of this property are put off by such an inconsequential problem? I wonder about people sometimes, they are perhaps concerned about the squeak being an indication of a more serious structural problem, but REALLY! And then they'll go and buy a place infested with termites. :U

Cheers,
David

[Davo888]

If it is a timber strip floor, sometimes talcum powder spread over the floor and between the boards can stop squeaky floors.... of course you need to get yo the boards... Cheers

[artful bodger]

Hard to tell from the pics exactly what is going on. However I reckon if you do get someone to walk around on the squeaky areas upstairs while you observe closely from below you may get more of an idea of where that wascally creaking is coming from.
Wait till you get an obliging visitor.
Don't give up and good luck.

[Marion W]

A long way from your usual home ground rwbuild and the photo's could be clearer, but could that be caneite between the ceiling joists? It would seem likely that those ceiling joists are also the joists for the upstairs floor in which case your suggestion for a remedy sounds like a cracker to me. :2tsup:

Isn't it interesting that potential buyers of this property are put off by such an inconsequential problem? I wonder about people sometimes, they are perhaps concerned about the squeak being an indication of a more serious structural problem, but REALLY! And then they'll go and buy a place infested with termites. :U

Cheers,
David

David - I so totally agree with you about the potential buyers - this is a hardiplank? home with a tin roof - it is quirky and full of character - as afar as I am concerned the house "talks to me" - I am sorry if I sound so ignorant but my lovely husband used to deal with all of these things and was knowledgeable about everything about the home (plus many other things). I have tried so hard to learn many things in a short period of time - including how much it will cost to replace the cowl on the chimney which my husband easily replaced 10 years ago!!! I hate having to ask people for help or information but I am trying hard!! If you need better photos I can take them tomorrow with a different camera - just let me know if it will help. Thank you to everyone so far for your help - it is appreciated I promise you.

[artful bodger]

Marion W. If you have had potential buyer who has tried to haggle on price because of squeaky flooring or chimney cowling etc. You could just ignore them, tell em to look elsewhere. Neither problem is diabolical or un-fixable and as you said the house talks to you. So you must have liked living there. Next punter will find some thing else to pick at.
Patience. Some one will just love it and have to buy it eventually.

[rwbuild]

Particle sheet board flooring directly on to joists and painted, there are sheet joins every 900mm.

Typical problem from sheet flooring from about 15+years ago when it was standard practice to nail down with either 75 x 3.75 bullet head nails or flat head gun nails. Liquid nails of that vintage only had an effective life of about 10 yrs after which time normal climatic changes and normal house hold traffic also contributed to fracturing of the glue because it became very brittle. In this instance, was liqued nails even used and if so, was it applied correctly. Another possible cause relates to how long was the laid floor exposed to the elements before it was weather proof. Also, carpenters who had little experience and correct training usually didn't nail in a dovetail pattern which increased the mechanical advantage by at least 3 times the amount of a vertical nail. In addition, nails of that vintage were not ring shanked and the sheet flooring would eventually slip on the nails.

The current BCA standard calls for all sheet flooring to be screwed.

A competent carpenter should be able to measure from a datum the floor joist layout relative to up stairs and be able to fix the floor down as I have suggested.

[Marion W]

Particle sheet board flooring directly on to joists and painted, there are sheet joins every 900mm.

Typical problem from sheet flooring from about 15+years ago when it was standard practice to nail down with either 75 x 3.75 bullet head nails or flat head gun nails. Liquid nails of that vintage only had an effective life of about 10 yrs after which time normal climatic changes and normal house hold traffic also contributed to fracturing of the glue because it became very brittle. In this instance, was liqued nails even used and if so, was it applied correctly. Another possible cause relates to how long was the laid floor exposed to the elements before it was weather proof. Also, carpenters who had little experience and correct training usually didn't nail in a dovetail pattern which increased the mechanical advantage by at least 3 times the amount of a vertical nail. In addition, nails of that vintage were not ring shanked and the sheet flooring would eventually slip on the nails.

The current BCA standard calls for all sheet flooring to be screwed.

A competent carpenter should be able to measure from a datum the floor joist layout relative to up stairs and be able to fix the floor down as I have suggested.

We were the third owners of the home so have no idea about the build. It was originally a Brian Burke home (not the renowned ex Premier but another man of the same name) who was a well known builder of these types of homes. You are now going into areas that are not just foreign but alien to me!!! Finding a carpenter in this area who knows about this problem is harder then hen's teeth and needles and haystacks!! I feel I am just going to have to tell the Agent that if they don't like talking floorboards then I shan't be moving. Thanks again for your interest and help.

[Glennet]

We were the third owners of the home so have no idea about the build. It was originally a Brian Burke home (not the renowned ex Premier but another man of the same name) who was a well known builder of these types of homes. You are now going into areas that are not just foreign but alien to me!!! Finding a carpenter in this area who knows about this problem is harder then hen's teeth and needles and haystacks!! I feel I am just going to have to tell the Agent that if they don't like talking floorboards then I shan't be moving. Thanks again for your interest and help.


When we were selling our house the agents picked on things like that, and as soon as we fixed one they found something else. It may be just about softening you up to accept a lower price.

[ian]

it can be fixed by using a nail gun (fitout, not framing) set the depth adjuster to maximum and shoot straight through the carpet into the floor and joist again at an angle off vertical.


A competent carpenter should be able to measure from a datum the floor joist layout relative to up stairs and be able to fix the floor down as I have suggested.
Hi Marion

Does the entire upstairs floor squeak, or is it just in a few places?

as rwbuild has suggested, a competent carpenter should be able to fix the squeak in not very long at all WITHOUT lifting the carpet. From rwbuild's advice, it will take longer to set out where the joists are than it will to drive enough new nails to stop the squeak.


Perhaps the best way to find a competent carpenter is to find out which of your local real estate agents has the largest portfolio of rental houses.
That agent will have one or two "competent" handymen / carpenters who do the maintenance work for them.
When the maintenance person volunteers a fix as described by rwbuild, you should have a competent one.

[rwbuild]

Ian, the intent is to measure where the floor joists are where it squeaks, this needs to be done so when it is fixed no nails or screws will be seen underneath. The sheet flooring acts as a ceiling for the downstairs rooms.

[justonething]

Marion
I'm a little bit confused about what kind of flooring is underneath the carpet. Are they floor boards or are they particle boards? If they are wooden floor boards, then this product (http://www.amazon.com/OBERRY-ENTERPRISES-3233-SQUEEEEEK-REPAIR/dp/B0006IK8YE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1452720228&sr=1-1&keywords=squeak+no+more) from the amazon would work. Wherever the floor squeaks, using the jig supplied, you screw down the fastener directly through the carpet, the floor boards and onto the joists below and then snap off the heads at their predetermined "spots". If the flooring is made of particle boards, then they only tend to work while you put it in and but the particle boards around where the screws are applied tend to crumble in a short while and they no longer work again so they are not the right solution. And we have to find some other ways. Finding out exactly where the joists are would be a bit of a challenge, but by first detecting them from underneath using a stud sensor and then work back to the corresponding location from above should do the trick, plus you have the squeaks to guide you.

[Marion W]

When we were selling our house the agents picked on things like that, and as soon as we fixed one they found something else. It may be just about softening you up to accept a lower price.

I agree Glennet - although this is one item she picked up before listing - she mentioned that it had been an issue with a couple of other homes that she knew about but she is under no illusion about the price - the bottom margin is literally rock bottom - any lower and I can't afford to move so it was listed at a realistic price (under what I would have liked but I have to be realistic as well). The noise cold be considered as a potential problem if people have not experienced the "talking floorboards" before!

[Marion W]

Marion
I'm a little bit confused about what kind of flooring is underneath the carpet. Are they floor boards or are they particle boards? If they are wooden floor boards, then this product (http://www.amazon.com/OBERRY-ENTERPRISES-3233-SQUEEEEEK-REPAIR/dp/B0006IK8YE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1452720228&sr=1-1&keywords=squeak+no+more) from the amazon would work. Wherever the floor squeaks, using the jig supplied, you screw down the fastener directly through the carpet, the floor boards and onto the joists below and then snap off the heads at their predetermined "spots". If the flooring is made of particle boards, then they only tend to work while you put it in and but the particle boards around where the screws are applied tend to crumble in a short while and they no longer work again so they are not the right solution. And we have to find some other ways. Finding out exactly where the joists are would be a bit of a challenge, but by first detecting them from underneath using a stud sensor and then work back to the corresponding location from above should do the trick, plus you have the squeaks to guide you.

OK - I have done some firkling around trying to find a piece of carpet that is loose - managed to find a bit at the stair edge and from what I can see it is not floor boards but some kind of particle board - (should I take a photo?). Can you buy stud sensors? That product is the one I was looking at but it is in the USA as far as I can see - if you think it might work (even only temporarily!!!) I might have to invest in it and wait for it to arrive then find someone with a drill (think I sold all of my husbands as I am not a dab hand at drilling!)

Thank you for that help - we may be progressing!

[Marion W]

Hi Marion

Does the entire upstairs floor squeak, or is it just in a few places?

as rwbuild has suggested, a competent carpenter should be able to fix the squeak in not very long at all WITHOUT lifting the carpet. From rwbuild's advice, it will take longer to set out where the joists are than it will to drive enough new nails to stop the squeak.


Perhaps the best way to find a competent carpenter is to find out which of your local real estate agents has the largest portfolio of rental houses.
That agent will have one or two "competent" handymen / carpenters who do the maintenance work for them.
When the maintenance person volunteers a fix as described by rwbuild, you should have a competent one.

Hi Ian,

The floor squeaks in a few places but one or two are worse - it would be nice to get those done at last! Competent carpenter and Mandurah don't fit into the same sentence it seems - I have contacted two or three and they have suggested lifting the carpet!

[rustynail]

Particle board flooring usually squeaks along the plastic tongue. The manufacturers now recommend gluing in the tongue groove and along the joist tops. In the early days of this type of flooring only joist gluing was recommended. If it does seem to be in the joint between sheets and these joints are open enough to allow flooring adhesive to be squirted in, this may be your best approach. Failing that and the joints are too tight, a liberal sprinkling of talc powder and a thorough sweep in would be the next option.
I cant imagine any of the above being possible without lifting the carpet unfortunately.

[ian]

If I've understood Marion correctly, she is seeking a solution that
1. will last long enough that the squeak doesn't return till after the new owners move in.
2. doesn't require the carpet to be replaced, or completely lifted and relaid
3. allows her to achieve a quick sale at a price which will allow her to move on with her life.

rwbuild has suggested that the particle board flooring can be re-nailed or screwed through the carpet -- which sounds like a winner to me.

[nrb]

If you can get under the floor in the problem areas a fix can be done as suggested by others before.
If not and you have to work from the top that is another challenge,you can locate the joists by lifting the edge of the carpet,previous answers have addressed how to
I have the same issue and did not want to lift the carpet,screw then have the carpet relayed
I bought from the USA a system called SQEEEEK NO MORE---did it fix it NO waste of money
I feel that in the states a lot of flooring is ply while here most of ours are chipboard
I contacted the people I bought from but am still waiting for reply

[rwbuild]

If the squek can be narrowed down to the jpon between the sheets with plastic tongue as Rustynail has said, a counter sunk head screw from underneath IN THE Join will lock the sheets relative to each other and a dab of ceiling paint will hide the screw after the slot in the screw has been filled

[Marion W]

If I've understood Marion correctly, she is seeking a solution that
1. will last long enough that the squeak doesn't return till after the new owners move in.
2. doesn't require the carpet to be replaced, or completely lifted and relaid
3. allows her to achieve a quick sale at a price which will allow her to move on with her life.

rwbuild has suggested that the particle board flooring can be re-nailed or screwed through the carpet -- which sounds like a winner to me.

Ian,
You have nailed it perfectly thank you (oh - sorry pun not intended).
I am quite sure it is not a major problem it has been there for years but we were just used to it. I truly cannot remember if it was the same when we bought it but I am positive it is not a structural problem otherwise he would have been on to it long ago!

Thank you for the suggestions - will work on the product on Amazon.

Marion

[Marion W]

If you can get under the floor in the problem areas a fix can be done as suggested by others before.
If not and you have to work from the top that is another challenge,you can locate the joists by lifting the edge of the carpet,previous answers have addressed how to
I have the same issue and did not want to lift the carpet,screw then have the carpet relayed
I bought from the USA a system called SQEEEEK NO MORE---did it fix it NO waste of money
I feel that in the states a lot of flooring is ply while here most of ours are chipboard
I contacted the people I bought from but am still waiting for reply

Thank you - yes I have the link for that product so it might be worth a try - only minimum outlay compared to several hundred $ Thank you for the info - appreciated.

[Simplicity]

Just a quick note .
Lots and lots and lots of great advice .
Just one very important note be careful of .
If you screw through carpet ,be very ,very very ,and very again( ask me how I know)
That the screw shank does not cause a carpet thread to pull and run .
It can happen very quickly .
If you must screw through Carpet, I suggest a very tiny cut first ,with a very sharp knife.
Cheers Matt

[nrb]

I posted about the product from Amazon because it didn't work for me
After I screwed about 300 screws about 100mm apart as recommended all looked good but after about 3 days the floor squeaked just as much so good luck let us know how you go

As been posted normal screws can very easily pull a thread or catch on the underlay ,the ones in the kit are coated not to catch
I considered nailing by hand but was worried that the ceiling plaster would crack on the first story ceiling,my framing nail gun left holes in the carpet(tested in the wardrobe) I didn't try my bradder as I felt they were not heavy enough

[rwbuild]

Use an off cut of a drinking straw and screw down inside that, no carpet threads to get caught

[Simplicity]

Well there you go
I new tip for me
Thank you

[aldav]

Marion, I don't think you can go better then rwbuilds advice here. He's been there and done that. Just go with it! You can determine the exact location of the joists by measuring the locations of the joists from the ceiling below at both ends; mark on the carpet using chalk, using the nails/screws where you've pulled the the carpet up upstairs as your initial guide. I reckon you may be able to do it yourself, but if you're not feeling that confident get a local handyman. If he doesn't understand what you're talking about pretty immediately get another one as the first is obviously an idiot!

Cheers,
David

[Marion W]

[QUOTE=Simplicity;1923052]Just a quick note .
Lots and lots and lots of great advice .
Just one very important note be careful of .
If you screw through carpet ,be very ,very very ,and very again( ask me how I know)
That the screw shank does not cause a carpet thread to pull and run .
It can happen very quickly .
If you must screw through Carpet, I suggest a very tiny cut first ,with a very sharp knife.
Cheers Matt[/QUOTE

Hi Matt,
I almost dread to ask but I am going to anyway - what disaster happened!!
I so wish my father was still around - he was a carpenter. furniture maker and carpet layer! I obviously didn't inherit his talents!!
Thank you for the tip - another thing to remember.
Marion

[Marion W]

Marion, I don't think you can go better then rwbuilds advice here. He's been there and done that. Just go with it! You can determine the exact location of the joists by measuring the locations of the joists from the ceiling below at both ends; mark on the carpet using chalk, using the nails/screws where you've pulled the the carpet up upstairs as your initial guide. I reckon you may be able to do it yourself, but if you're not feeling that confident get a local handyman. If he doesn't understand what you're talking about pretty immediately get another one as the first is obviously an idiot!

Cheers,
David

Thanks David for the vote of confidence -I have made a note of all of the suggestions and ideas so with luck and a lot of help from all of you I may overcome the squeaks!!! Well versed in idiots I must admit - ten a penny!
Cheers,
Marion

[Simplicity]

A screw court a thread and ran for about a metre across the carpet [emoji20]

[Marion W]

A screw court a thread and ran for about a metre across the carpet [emoji20]

Eek - nasty - thank you for that - might use the tip about the straw in that case!!!!

[justonething]

OK - I have done some firkling around trying to find a piece of carpet that is loose - managed to find a bit at the stair edge and from what I can see it is not floor boards but some kind of particle board - (should I take a photo?). Can you buy stud sensors? That product is the one I was looking at but it is in the USA as far as I can see - if you think it might work (even only temporarily!!!) I might have to invest in it and wait for it to arrive then find someone with a drill (think I sold all of my husbands as I am not a dab hand at drilling!)

Hi Marion, Now we are certain that the floor consists of particle board flooring, those screws from Amazon may not be working all that well. It is still an option but if you can find better ways, you should attempt that first. I do another suggestion, but that would depend if I, and many others, have interpreted the picture you attempted correctly. From the pictures, it appears that what we see is the underside of the particle board flooring painted white. If you could confirm that examine the white ceiling closely and may be have someone upstairs walking and see if you could feel the vibration from below. If what we see is instead the underside of the particle floor board, then the adjacent "beams" are the floor joists. With this exposed floor joists arrangement, you could use pocket hole screws from underneath. with a jig, you can drill into the joist vertically up from the side, these screws would go through the joist and pull the floor board down and stop the squeak. The advantage is that there is no need disturb anything from the top.

One of the forumers currently have a full jig, called the Kreg pocket hole jig, on sale in the market place - http://www.woodworkforums.com/f275/kreg-k4-master-system-extras-201727.

[Treecycle]

One of the forumers currently have a full jig, called the Kreg pocket hole jig, on sale in the market place - http://www.woodworkforums.com/f275/kreg-k4-master-system-extras-201727.

Not any more

[rrich]

There is a product that, at best, looks like a double headed screw. You just screw through the carpet into a floor joist. If the second head doesn't break off as part of the installation process a tap with a hammer will knock the top head off.

BTW - Use a metal center punch to drive a starting hole through the carpet. This should prevent the screw from snagging on the carpet and causing a run.

Sorry but I can't remember the name of the double head screw product. It has been around for decades.

[Marion W]

Hi Marion, Now we are certain that the floor consists of particle board flooring, those screws from Amazon may not be working all that well. It is still an option but if you can find better ways, you should attempt that first. I do another suggestion, but that would depend if I, and many others, have interpreted the picture you attempted correctly. From the pictures, it appears that what we see is the underside of the particle board flooring painted white. If you could confirm that examine the white ceiling closely and may be have someone upstairs walking and see if you could feel the vibration from below. If what we see is instead the underside of the particle floor board, then the adjacent "beams" are the floor joists. With this exposed floor joists arrangement, you could use pocket hole screws from underneath. with a jig, you can drill into the joist vertically up from the side, these screws would go through the joist and pull the floor board down and stop the squeak. The advantage is that there is no need disturb anything from the top.

One of the forumers currently have a full jig, called the Kreg pocket hole jig, on sale in the market place - http://www.woodworkforums.com/f275/kreg-k4-master-system-extras-201727.

Thank you - I have visitors coming today so I will get one of them to walk whilst I try to inspect from downstairs.

Thank you also for the mention of a jig although we are straying into the realms of fantasy here! The highest I can go on a step ladder is one rung - usually with a phone nearby and holding on to something with one hand. The thought of using a tool as described is sadly in my fantasy land - leave me with ground levels things that I have learnt about - reticulation, pond filters, chicken sheds and box top sets! The thought was appreciated though.

Cheers,

Marion