Handmade Lace Sheoak box

[dusteater]

The price of the wood or the skill of the craftsman? , maybe a bit of both. Hand Made Heirloom Wooden Jewellery Box West Australian Lace Sheoak | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-made-Heirloom-Wooden-Jewellery-Box-West-Australian-Lace-Sheoak-/262025321438)

[mark david]

Nice looking timber,not very imaginative design or skilled construction and very over-priced.

[derekcohen]

The sides are butt jointed, glued and nailed.

Nice timber (one of my favourite).

Taking a chance with the price.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Nanigai]

Not to mention poor presentation,out of focus piccies!!

[Dengue]

Nice looking timber,not very imaginative design or skilled construction and very over-priced.
Hi Mark, what would you suggest to improve on the design?

Totally agree with you on the price

[Kuffy]

Check the blokes seller feedback. He is quite sucessful. Its a fantastic sales pitch he has on his ads.

[Luke Maddux]

The video is good. He obviously has some skill and interesting vision for design.

Agreed that the price is a bit unreasonable.

[ian]

the contact given is [email protected] is this the same not Yanni that posts here?

[ian]

The price of the wood or the skill of the craftsman? , maybe a bit of both. Hand Made Heirloom Wooden Jewellery Box West Australian Lace Sheoak | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-made-Heirloom-Wooden-Jewellery-Box-West-Australian-Lace-Sheoak-/262025321438)
Maybe a miss type or an experiement
the price is approximately 10x what his other boxes sell for

[John.G]

How long - start to finish - does it take to build a box like that?

(Me dumb sawmiller, value wood with glance but clueless about labour cost on jewellery box.)

Times wages... tradesmans rates + super+ comp + loading because yanno... im sick of the idea that some shiney assed public servant is worth more in extras then someone like a plumber or a electrician or a cabinetmaker who actually does things.

Plus materials.

And an allowance for tools because .... as we alll know you can tie a lot up in tools in a workshop real fast, and they all wear out.

PLus marketing costs. Because time is money and you spend three hours answering dumb questions and its three hours at tradesmans rates that you weren't doing your thing.

What is the real cost of building a box like that? Not because you like the work and got time on your hands but because you got a wife and kids to feed and this is the skillset you have to do it with.

Curious...

[ian]

depends on the tools you have and how the wood is supplied ...

let's assume he buys wood in 50mm thick planks and that he's going to prep the wood for a single box
so, say
10 mins to select a board from his wood pile
5 mins to dress one side and edge on the jointer
10 mins to resaw on the bandsaw to yield 1 x 20mm board, 1 x 30mm board which goes back into storage
15 mins to decide which pieces (top panel, front, back, sides, frame for top, bottom, pieces for the tray) will come from where on the 20mm board -- assume he uses templates to mark out the pieces.
45 mins to cut the pieces oversize and run them over the jointer and through the thicknesser and drum sander (add 15 mins if he uses an ROS)
15 mins to cut all the bits to finished size
20 mins to run the rebates to for the top panel

so, 2 hours in, the maker has a pile of components that just need to be glued together to form the box.

assume he uses a jig to keep everything square as he glues the box up
so glue up should take less than an hour

Then allow another 1 to 2 hours over several days for rounding the edges and polishing

all up 4 to 5 hours, 6 at the outside.

so if you're paying yourself $20 per hour, the finished box would have about $150 to $200 in it and you would look to sell it for say $400, eg. Hand Made Wooden Jewellery Box Australian RARE Myrtle Burl | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-made-Wooden-Jewellery-Box-Australian-Rare-Myrtle-Burl-/331246719351)

[Mobyturns]

Nice looking timber,not very imaginative design or skilled construction and very over-priced.

I certainly don't condemn Yanni for valuing his skills highly. If he can achieve sales in his market niche at those prices good on him. If it helps to raise the expectations or sets a market price point that consumers are willing or expect to pay it can only be good for other artisans. Even better if it assists another artisan who can produce a higher quality box with more advanced joinery to gain a market advantage on price or even better help them to achieve more realistic returns for their skills, knowledge & experience.

I must admit his gallery presentation, website (Yanni Rigos – Wood Alchemy | Rare Australian wooden jewellery boxes and sculptures (http://woodalchemy.com/)), marketing and video are pretty good, and his location in the Dandenong Ranges is excellent. A lot to be learned from this guy - he knows his market & how to sell.

[Christos]

Personally I don't think this is over priced, it might be a tad high but really don't think it is over priced.

As wood workers be that professional or hobbyist we have some idea on how long a piece will take to complete. Of course time is a factor and does offer a guide on how to charge. I also believe that having these thoughts as a primary guild line for charging can distract from what is being presented.

This is a hand made piece as stated in the first two words of the title.

We as wood workers sometime undervalue the pieces that we create. We need to think from a slightly different perspective and look at what can be produced on a mass scale. Some of these pieces being produced are higher then the pieces that we create by our hands.

[artme]

Nice looking timber,not very imaginative design or skilled construction and very over-priced.

Spot on!!!

[P.W.H.]

Critique:
The wood is certainly attractive. I am not entirely convinced though that the brass (or bronze) nails are a 'feature'.
I noted that there's no lip, no rebate on lid or body - and in the third picture the lid clearly does not match the body of the box,
there seems to be a gap and I' suspicious of the lining-up.

Hmmm. I'd be dubious of putting it up for sale beyond 100-200, consider it to be a 'second'.

But:
Of course, if he's an 'artist', he can get away with charging a couple of thousand. (At least that's how some people reckon it
here in NZ at the moment).

Ultimately: if you can sell it at the price: good for you. There's that old "one man's meat is another man's poison". What some of
us see as imperfections may totally go below the radar for someone else. I've seen fashion-furniture sold in recent years that I would barely put
out in the garden because .. table tops out of recycled timber with gaps between boards that you can practically stick a bic pen into,
black rust stains, yet some folk pay 1000-2000 for a piece like that and it's the pride of their dining room. {shrug}

-P.

[John.G]

depends on the tools you have and how the wood is supplied ...

let's assume he buys wood in 50mm thick planks and that he's going to prep the wood for a single box
so, say
10 mins to select a board from his wood pile
5 mins to dress one side and edge on the jointer
10 mins to resaw on the bandsaw to yield 1 x 20mm board, 1 x 30mm board which goes back into storage
15 mins to decide which pieces (top panel, front, back, sides, frame for top, bottom, pieces for the tray) will come from where on the 20mm board -- assume he uses templates to mark out the pieces.
45 mins to cut the pieces oversize and run them over the jointer and through the thicknesser and drum sander (add 15 mins if he uses an ROS)
15 mins to cut all the bits to finished size
20 mins to run the rebates to for the top panel

so, 2 hours in, the maker has a pile of components that just need to be glued together to form the box.

assume he uses a jig to keep everything square as he glues the box up
so glue up should take less than an hour

Then allow another 1 to 2 hours over several days for rounding the edges and polishing

all up 4 to 5 hours, 6 at the outside.

so if you're paying yourself $20 per hour, the finished box would have about $150 to $200 in it and you would look to sell it for say $400, eg. Hand Made Wooden Jewellery Box Australian RARE Myrtle Burl | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-made-Wooden-Jewellery-Box-Australian-Rare-Myrtle-Burl-/331246719351)

So here's the next question, and more importantly it points directly at an issue that really irks me...

What makes the guys time worth only $20 an hour? No offense but for anyone with a skillset that's laughable, much less a person with a skillset, tools, and the overheads of self employment.

We face an issue in this country with high labour costs and high cost of living which makes it impossible to compete against international competition and it makes things tough for any manufacturing business, be it backyard boxmaker or steel refinery. $20 an hour isn't even median ages anymore.

[Big Shed]

When you look at most of his other boxes they sell for a lot less than this one.

On top of that he offers free International Shipping. As these are all listed on ebay.com, not ebay.com.au, this could potentially be very expensive.

Maybe it is just a clever ploy on his part to sell his cheaper boxes, having one or 2 very high priced ones amongst them it makes the cheaper boxes look very cheap and people might more readily buy one of them and think they are getting a real bargain.

I admire his sales pitch which is all too often lacking from people that are very good at designing/making art/craft items.

[Kuffy]

What makes the guys time worth only $20 an hour? No offense but for anyone with a skillset that's laughable, much less a person with a skillset, tools, and the overheads of self employment.



hmm, the most I ever got paid was $21/hour full time +super. Thats working as a qualified wood machinist, and of course i quit because of crap job, crap pay, but mostly no future growth prospects within the job which went out of biz shortly after I left. Now that i work for myself, i wish I was getting paid 20bux an hour :(

[P.W.H.]

So here's the next question, and more importantly it points directly at an issue that really irks me...

What makes the guys time worth only $20 an hour? No offense but for anyone with a skillset that's laughable, much less a person with a skillset, tools, and the overheads of self employment.


$20 an hour is barely above labour rate, I don't know about Australia, but the total minimum wage for a farm labourer here is in the vicinity of 13-15 dollars. That's digging holes for fence posts and shoveling manure.
My local mechanic charges $70 an hour for changing a tyre on a quad bike trailer. Our local electrician used to charge more ... I just built a couple of beds for a friend (more like sleeping platforms) and I was vacillating between charging $25 and $50, and in the end I decided to simply donate my time instead :)

Seriously, $20/h is nothing unless you're a wage-slave at the bottom of the totem pole. I.M.O.

[Enfield Guy]

On top of that he offers free International Shipping. As these are all listed on ebay.com, not ebay.com.au, this could potentially be very expensive.




I send a stool that I make OS on a regular basis. I use INTERPARCEL, they use various companies to ship product. I can send 5kg, about a metre long, 400 wide and about 50 deep pretty much anywhere in the world for about $85.00 and get it to where it needs to go in 4 - 5 working days. A box like that would cost about $50.00 max I reckon to anywhere, so, not that expensive in the scheme of things.

Cheers
Bevan

[Big Shed]

On top of that he offers free International Shipping. As these are all listed on ebay.com, not ebay.com.au (http://ebay.com.au/), this could potentially be very expensive.


I send a stool that I make OS on a regular basis. I use INTERPARCEL, they use various companies to ship product. I can send 5kg, about a metre long, 400 wide and about 50 deep pretty much anywhere in the world for about $85.00 and get it to where it needs to go in 4 - 5 working days. A box like that would cost about $50.00 max I reckon to anywhere, so, not that expensive in the scheme of things.

Cheers
Bevan

Some of his boxes sell for $135, so Ebay takes 10%, Paypal takes 2%, that leaves $118.80, $50 freight, that leaves him $68.80.

Might be OK for his $1195 box, but not as good for the $135 box.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

I am not an economist but as far as I know their philosophy is that something is worth what you can get for it. Yanni clearly invests time and money in finding some superb pieces of wood and in design and marketing.

Sometimes putting a low price on something makes it harder to sell. i once had some left over sandstone blocks from a building restoration project in Hobart. I advertised them for what they had cost me (I had 2 truckloads for $1,000 so offered the remainder for $500) and had no interest from buyers apart from a few people who wanted one block each for $10. So I re-advertised the left over pile for $1,500. I was overwhelmed with takers including from interstate.

I am only an amateur woodworker and do not usually sell my work, but I also like to use the most special "spiffy" timbers I can find. It takes a lot of time and money to accumulate a supply of such timbers - so, for a commercial supplier - that needs to be paid for as does the design and marketing effort. So, it is not just the time spent, machinery costs depreciation, electricity etc. etc. overheads that have to be taken into account.

As others have said, if Yanni can lift the appreciation of our fine timbers by putting a "high" price on his work then good on him. At the least it is a clever marketing technique and we should not knock it. Even if many of the rest of us do not sell our products it may make the recipients of our gifts more appreciative!

[double.d]

I'm glad this topic of price has been bought up because i would like in the near future to start selling some more of mine. While i am new to box making i feel that my still practicing stage is nearly over and i can feel at ease with taking money from people. I was invited to a dinner party recently and was asked to bring some boxes, so i bought all i had along and sold four of them and got orders for two more and have since got orders for another two.

I can finish a box in 10-12 hours starting from rough sawn timber, complete with hinges and an insert tray. If i'm making timber hinges and a timber handle than it's another 2-3 hours. Because it is not my sole income and because i love doing it i put a rate of $10 per hour on them along with whatever the strap hinges cost and a few dollars each for timber and incidentals.I have a large stock of timber on hand that i got for cheap so the cost of the timber content is nominal, however If i had to source a particular timber then the full price of the timber plus a suitable mark up would be applied.

So for the basic designs i am making i think $150 for a well made detailed box is a good buy and people are telling me that this is around the price they want to pay.

I did some searching recently and found a shop in a major city that were selling boxes, some of which i thought were nowhere as good as what i can produce for between $400-$800. I realise there is a hefty markup for retail but even at 100% the producer if like me is still making good money but if it is his sole income then he would not fare well until he changes his designs and construction methods.

Yanni is a tradesman and artist and has a business to run and going by his website makes quality products so if he has a ready market for his asking prices then good on him but unless the timber is the last plank left in the existence there is no way that box is worth the asking price.

[Enfield Guy]

It seems he is only offering free shipping on the more expensive boxes. The cheaper ones calculated shipping to the States is $56.00 ish.

After doing my own calculation I reckon I could ship the same item to the states for $40.00, but I would prolly still charge $56 to cover packing and handling.

Cheers
Bevan

[derekcohen]

If the design and construction of the box pleases you, and the price appears reasonable, then go ahead an buy it. That is the public view.

My private view is as a woodworker who values craftsmanship, and this box lacks it in specific areas - the boards are butt jointed instead of mitred or dovetailed. Dovetails would be too busy here, but mitres would show an effort to create a harmonious whole. Butt joints scream out to me "quick and dirty". He finishes the boxes well and there is reasonable aesthetic. The top and bottom are ill-matched. He shows off the wood. It is this that will attract the public's attention.

What is the price of craftsmanship? Are you buying this or the wood? If this box had mitred corners would it be worth what is asked? If the public set the number what they are prepared to pay, then does that limit the time and craftsmanship that will be expended? $20/hour is hardly good business if you plan to support yourself, never mind a family. The thing is, poor craftsmanship does not mean I should pay less. I'd rather not have it at all. On the other hand, a well crafted box at the price quoted ($1XXX) is justifiable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[GraemeCook]

So here's the next question, and more importantly it points directly at an issue that really irks me...

What makes the guys time worth only $20 an hour? No offense but for anyone with a skillset that's laughable, much less a person with a skillset, tools, and the overheads of self employment.



That is a really good question, John. It also raises a series of subsidiary questions.

[I have worked as both an accountant and an economist and what I say below is some very broad brush rules of thumb. It cannot be precise; companies vary, industries vary, economic times vary.]

What does it cost the employer to actually employ someone who is paid $20 per hour? The employer must add the costs of superannuation, recreation and sick leave, rent of the workshop space utilised, costs of electricity, rates, water, depreciation on tools & equipment, general overheads, ad finitum. A rough rule of thumb is to double the hourly rate - that is, to $40 per hour. Now the second question:-

What hourly rate should the employer charge to client? To the above we add the employers salary/profit, finance costs, marketing costs, provision for down time, R&D time, etc, and the rough rule of thumb is to triple the wage rate to $60 per hour.

To test this assertion, if your servo charges $75 per hour to do your car, then ask the employed mechanic what is his base wage and see how close to $25 it is. Ditto, for employed sparkies, plumbers, etc.

Is the base wage rate of $20 per hour appropriate for the skill set and market conditions? It does seem quite low for the skills demonstrated, but the employment market is often most unfair. When the automobile was invented, many highly skilled buggy whip manufacturers found the market for their skills non-existant.


Fair Winds

Graeme

[ian]

$20 an hour is barely above labour rate, I don't know about Australia, but the total minimum wage for a farm labourer here is in the vicinity of 13-15 dollars. That's digging holes for fence posts and shoveling manure.
My local mechanic charges $70 an hour for changing a tyre on a quad bike trailer. Our local electrician used to charge more ... I just built a couple of beds for a friend (more like sleeping platforms) and I was vacillating between charging $25 and $50, and in the end I decided to simply donate my time instead :)

Seriously, $20/h is nothing unless you're a wage-slave at the bottom of the totem pole. I.M.O.
your local mechanic is probably paying himself less than $30 per hour.

$20 per hour in the maker's pocket, would translate to between $60 and $80 per hour AFTER overheads, and perhaps significantly more than $100 per hour if marketing the box (photos, video, web site updating) takes longer than building it.

[aldav]

Good luck to him if he can get it. The fact that he is listing these on ebay.com means that he is targeting the North American market. He has had sales of around A$10,000 to $12,000 in his store over the past 5 months (excluding any one-off specialist boxes) so he's not exactly making a killing out of it. The fees for an Australian to sell on ebay.com and receive payments via Paypal are higher too.

That being said a lot of his boxes are fairly simply and quickly made and because he appears to have multiples of the one box available economies of scale come in to the making as well. If he's managing to make a living out of the work that he loves I say well done, because it's not easy. :no:

As a matter of interest derekcohen what would you have to charge for your lingerie chest once it's finished if your woodwork was your only source of income? And I'm not for a moment suggesting that it wouldn't be worth whatever that figure is. Most of us would be below the poverty line. Ask Evanism how much stuff he has to crank out to make a quid.

Cheers,
David

[derekcohen]

As a matter of interest derekcohen what would you have to charge for your lingerie chest once it's finished if your woodwork was your only source of income?

David, I would starve as a pro woodworker ... even if I changed my handtool methods, which I most certainly have to re-think!

Before I started on the drawers ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/LCAStageCompleted_html_m560a5a19.jpg



What I think a high end piece is worth, and what it needs to sell for to make a profit .. are two different matters.

Let's say that I could complete it to the level I hope, a piece like that, by a high end furniture maker could command $25k. Would that realise a profit?

How many weeks/months does one expect to take for a substantial build? What is your expected income over that time PLUS all expenses incurred while building (materials, tools, rental, electricity, water, etc)?

The Hans Wegner chair (on the left) I build last year took me 6 months of weekends .. so about 50 or so full days. The wood was about $350. I do not put a value on my time for myself. The factory build the chair (on the right) in about 6 hours. They charge $7000. How much of this is profit?

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/WeavingSeatCompletingTheChair_html_m1a3cedf0.jpg

These high prices are all well and good. However, what is the size of the market for such pieces in Australia? How many woodworkers can sell enough to build pieces like this on a full time basis. Most move down market, and/or supplement their income elsewhere.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

while we're talking pricing ...

I find Bungendore Woodworks a good source of what is value -- I don't know the selling model, but believe that the larger pieces are sold on commission and that the retail margin on small items is in the order of 100%, i.e. the maker gets about 50% of the selling price.

Some of the most beautiful boxes there are these by Chris Wilford and Judy Wilford

http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/products/Wilford-Box-DesertGlowing-04.jpg?itok=9B6mnWQD http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/products/Wilford-Box-DesertGlowing-01.jpg?itok=-pNx9LKB

when I last saw a Wilford box in the flesh, I recall the price was several hundred dollars above what I was prepared to pay to purchase it as a gift for the one member of my family who would most appreciate it, but well under $1000.

but as a potential customer, a box like that is well worth the asking price.


For comparison, these Scarab boxes are priced at $175.
http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/e-sale-products/Scarab-TreasureBox-04.jpg?itok=8wllXTJp http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/e-sale-products/Scarab-TreasureBox-02.jpg?itok=TXVf5MF-

as a critique, these boxes are significantly more complex in their construction than the one we are discussing, but still relatively simple in their construction.


and these playing card boxes are priced at $250

http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/e-sale-products/Burger-Card-Boxes-_0001_Group%202.jpg?itok=wduq-jHS http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/e-sale-products/Burger-Card-Boxes-_0000_Group%201.jpg?itok=ccaQtala


IMO, all the above are better designed and more complex to make than the box we are discussing.


but if the maker of the Heirloom, Hand Made, Western Australian Lace Sheoak Jewelry box can get $1100 for it, then it just goes to show again how marketing can establish a "value" that is very much greater than an item's true worth.

[ian]

As a matter of interest derekcohen what would you have to charge for your lingerie chest once it's finished if your woodwork was your only source of income?


David, I would starve as a pro woodworker ... even if I changed my handtool methods, which I most certainly have to re-think!

What I think a high end piece is worth, and what it needs to sell for to make a profit .. are two different matters.

Let's say that I could complete it to the level I hope, a piece like that, by a high end furniture maker could command $25k. Would that realise a profit?
Bungendore Gallery lists these two Tall Boys (730W x 500D x 1380H) by Philip Gould at:
Blackwood $5,250 -- Drawers Kauri, Jarrah, Silky Oak, Camphor Laurel bases
Redgum and Silky Oak $4,500 -- Drawers Kauri, Jarrah, Silky Oak, Camphor Laurel bases

http://www.bungendorewoodworks.com.au/sites/default/files/styles/8c_square/public/field/products/Next-ws12.jpg?itok=7IGyJRfI

I prefer the one on the right

[derekcohen]

Ian, those chests are very nice. $5K seems about right to me. But their design is not complex, and the time to build them is not great.

I was asked a price and gave a hypothetical one. If one built a piece such as the chest I am making, it may take 10x as long to build as those chests you posted. That ups the cost of making considerably, and flows through to the price.

Why do I state 10x? Because that is the figure I was quoted by a professional furniture maker on the UK forum when I complained that the drawers were taking forever to build. I can usually build a dovetailed drawer with slips and solid wood bottom and fit it in about 4 - 5 hours. That is for a rectangular drawer. The drawers I am making are curved at the front and sides to fit inside a curved carcase. Each one takes me 3 full days to make.

This is the problem with a picture - can one say what the craftsmanship is like on the inside? Is there a cost factor in traditional joinery vs biscuits or machine-cut dovetails? Are there little details such as flush and beaded slips vs drawer bottoms that are held by grooved thick drawer sides?

Pricing furniture outside of Ikea requires a trained eye.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

Derek

please don't take the following as criticism of your work, which I think is first class, or of your work methods -- my intent is to contribute constructive comment in the context of this particular thread -- however, your lingerie chest is a particularly complex build that in part reflects on your experience as a maker and the extent of planning prior to commencing construction.

My training as a cabinet maker stressed the importance of resolving construction issues -- such as the need to extend the side panel styles to accommodate the sliding dovetail drawer runners -- before any wood was cut.
If you were making a living as a cabinet maker, turning 60-70% of the wood in a drawer side into shavings, or sending the same amount up the dust extractor, would be valued in terms of the time saved compared to building slanted sides that will need to be scribed to fit the carcass. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with using Lynndy's lingerie chest as a means of acquiring the skill to build "bombe" drawers, but as a commercial maker you would have to have justify -- to the client -- the decision to use them on something other than a Bombe chest. And the same would apply to planted vs traditional drawer fronts. In defense of planted fronts, they could be glued onto a through dovetailed box, creating the impression of a half blind dovetail.

In terms of drawer slips versus grooved sides, and solid bottoms vs plywood, the difference in material costs is trivial, and the time difference -- in terms of a $5000 item -- not much. We're not talking about stapled and screwed together construction pine -- e.g. the squeaking Forty Winks bed -- we're talking solid wood and proper joints, even if some of those joints are machine made.



A bit longer in the end than I intended

[derekcohen]

Hi Ian

No criticism taken. These are all just examples to understand where costs come from and how complicated pricing can become.

At the end of the day I do not see the material costs to be particularly important. Bombe drawers in many of the pieces I viewed before my build were literally carved out of 1" thick sides. That may be a waste of wood, but not costly in wood, per se. That method is a choice one makes in construction. By contrast, I used thin sides and angled them to avoid having to carve thick sides to shape. However that made dovetailing and slips more complicated owing to the compound joinery. Which method would you choose ... as the builder, and as the client paying for the extra time taken to achieve a finer style?

I do think it is the time taken in building that is where the cost lies. Building a line of similar pieces will reduce costs as you just cut the piece more than once. Making a one-off is costly since you cannot amortise the time to plan and measure over other pieces.

You may have to justify costs to a single client who has commissioned you to build a custom piece. On the other hand, if you are building a line of pieces that end up in a catalogue, then you need to determine what price will obtain a profit. I imagine that the only person you justify this to is yourself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[AlexS]

Ask Evanism how much stuff he has to crank out to make a quid.
You can crank out as much as you like - you still have to sell it.

[John.G]

what a lot of you guys aren't figuring in is the impact of globalisation.

The thing is that the vicious circle of high cost of living -> high wages -> high level services -> high taxation is sending this country towards a crash. Because things cycle, and behind every big boom is a big crash, and the biggest boom of them all is just about over....

Things I can say for a fact. Year or so ago I looked over a dining setting made in Burma. Solid teak, table and 8 or 10 chairs, with a level of fit and finish that I would consider to be very high end commercial verging on the craftsman point. Not mass produced crap but I could see some guy with a couple apprentices had put the time in to do it right. Price? Wouldn't have built the table here for that, much less 10 chairs. Think those guys couldn't build Dereks lingerie cabinet? (Exquisite BTW) Sure they can - they can build anything they like, and do it all for $2.50 AUD an hour and think they're making an absolute killing doing it, and ship it into Australia, and watch it sell like hot cakes.

Car manufacturing - say no more. Let me help ya here... you think it costs $50k to build a poor quality mid level family car in India? Car prices here wont shift much but you watch them rake in the cash because those Indian made Fords - after shipping, and with the tariffs gone because there is no longer an economically unsustainable domestic car manufacturing industry to protect - cost about 1/3 the cost of a domestic manufactured one.

White collar jobs? The only group in Australia that tells horror stories about poor dentistry jobs done in Bali or the Philippines are dentists. The holiday with a new set of teeth thrown in is becoming entrenched in our society, and its going to get more and more prevalent. My business partner is an expat - needs to do USA corporate and personal taxation returns - last year the internationally based accountancy firm that does it put on an Australian tax expert. They can now do our Australian tax returns at a fraction of the price of using an accountant based in Australia. Same level of service, same professional job - fraction of the price. The day of $25 online filing, personal tax returns from a firm based in Delhi or Singapore or Shanghai is just around the corner. Their people will make wages sufficient to live comfortably and inline with what should be paid a tertiary trained professional. It just wouldn't be enough to live on here!



My point with all this is simple: the issue of "how much do I charge an hour for my time" has to take into account that you need to make enough to eat. Eating in this country is expensive. You also need to be cheap enough to compete - not with the guy down the road, but with the guy in a shop in Sarawak, plus his shipping costs, plus the importers margin. He can eat, and eat well, on $5.00 a day.

What I've seen in this thread has been unsuprising to me. Heres a guy whos gone out and is trying to make a living doing something he loves. And a whole heap of you have piled on and said "I can do better then that and do it cheaper!!!"

Okay then... do it! Have a go, quit ya jobs or refuse your pension - live on what you can make with the skill of your hands for a year or three. See how long you make it.

[Ironwood]

The only way I could consider becoming a full time woodworker, is if I win the Lotto first.http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/standard/rolleyes.gif

[ian]

My point with all this is simple: the issue of "how much do I charge an hour for my time" has to take into account that you need to make enough to eat. Eating in this country is expensive. You also need to be cheap enough to compete - not with the guy down the road, but with the guy in a shop in Sarawak, plus his shipping costs, plus the importers margin. He can eat, and eat well, on $5.00 a day.

What I've seen in this thread has been unsuprising to me. Heres a guy whos gone out and is trying to make a living doing something he loves. And a whole heap of you have piled on and said "I can do better then that and do it cheaper!!!"Hi John

I don't think anyone is begrudging this guy's attempt to feed himself and his family, but the questions were:

is the box in question worth the asking price -- to which the common answer is NO.
how much time would a competent maker invest in making such a box -- to which the general answer is not much.

BUT beyond the "cost" of the box, is the marketing side of this guy's business, an area at which he seems to excel.

If he can sell a $100 box for $1150, he's got himself into the league of global marketing giants like Coca Cola who can sell 0.02 cents of water and a bit of added colour and flavour for $3.50.

In reality he is a lesson for all makers.

[Dengue]

Is this video (https://www.facebook.com/MakeSomethingTV/videos/822803947845383/) of any use in this debate? Found it on FaceBook, so you might need to use your missus' FB account to view it :)

[GraemeCook]

If he can sell a $100 box for $1150, he's got himself into the league of global marketing giants like Coca Cola who can sell 0.02 cents of water and a bit of added colour and flavour for $3.50.


Good Morning Ian

You may recall that back in the seventies there was a form of price control. I then worked in a prices office for two years.

In the case of soft drinks - all brands - the major cost components, in order, are:

marketing, including advertising,
the container, bottle or can,
sugar, and
machinery costs.

The flavouring component is a very minor cost component.

Just look at the sugar component on the label, then see if you can get that much sugar to dissolve in a bottle of water!

[derekcohen]

Is this video (https://www.facebook.com/MakeSomethingTV/videos/822803947845383/) of any use in this debate? Found it on FaceBook, so you might need to use your missus' FB account to view it :)

Dengy, that is essentially what I was saying.

Further, the difference between a successful and unsuccessful Maker may very well come down to salesmanship (such as the video that went with the eBay auction) - simply because the public are largely uneducated about the finer points of what constitutes quality. Witness successful companies such as Ikea - they sell at a price that most can afford, and then sell their products as value-for-money. Did they convince you to buy their furniture? Or did you, as an educated and discriminating woodworker, decide they you could build it better?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

Hi Graeme

I think that just reinforces the point, the overwhelmingly major component of "value" for the box being discussed is the guy's marketing of it
rare
heirloom
environmentally responsible
etc

If it works, good on him

[Mobyturns]

There a few other points that makers should consider about pricing their work when stepping up from "hobbyist" to a "pro." Working from a dedicated "commercial" work shop and owning a dedicated gallery one has to cost in the time spent and costs associated with,



workplace health & safety compliance
insurances - product & public liability as well as building & contents
marketing
accounts
returns, product defects, unsatisfied customers,
capital costs associated with stock inventory, both raw materials & finished product
seasonal income
taxation, depreciation, replacement,
maintenance, cleaning
etc...


$20/hr is a sure way to go broke fast - $50/hr may deliver a livable wage.

[ian]

Moby

The $20 per hour figure, was suggested as a "wage" after all the other costs of the business, like those you itemized, had been met.

The $20 is the maker's personal income -- think food, beer, clothing -- and is not intended to represent or recover any of the business's costs.

IMPORTANTLY, the "wage" should not be confused with the maker's "charge-out" rate, which to make enough return to pay the $20 "wage", might well be in the order of $100 per hour. Unfortunately, many small businesses equate the "charge-out" rate with "personal income"

[Mobyturns]

When you look at average weekly incomes of around $1200 per week that figure should be more like $30/hr after all expenses etc.

[Christos]

The only way I could consider becoming a full time woodworker, is if I win the Lotto first.http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/standard/rolleyes.gif


Even that would be a bit of a stretch for me as I could not produce the same thing more than twice. I find that it would become very tiresome very quickly.

In reality I believe this person is elevating the craft to a higher level. I am not referring to the quality of an item but in giving the general public an idea of what these hand crafted individual pieces are worth.