Carron Solid Chisel Mortiser

[Vann]

I won a Carron solid chisel mortiser three weeks ago, and picked it up last weekend. It was located near Masterton in the Wairarapa, ~95km away. The journey includes crossing the Rimutaka Range.

371411 Loading at the sellers shed.

Our friend's trailer is a bit light for this duty - I should have hired something a little more solid.

371412 Stopped at the summit to admire the view - 555m ASL.

371413 At our place, just after removing the tie-downs.

371414 ...and in the garage. Who is that grumpy old bugger? You’d think he’d look happier now that he’s got his mortiser home.

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

According to Wikipedia, the Carron Company was an ironworks established in 1759 on the banks of the River Carron near Falkirk, Scotland. It became insolvent in 1982.

They seem to be best known for the carronade, a light but efficient cannon used in the days of sailing ships.

There seem to be conflicting reports about the high quality of their castings, and of loss of contracts due to poor quality. I guess that over a period of 223 years, they may well have traversed both ends of the quality scale.

The company logo was three crossed cannons above six cannonballs

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They appear to have made a few different models of solid chisel mortiser: the Carronette; Carrona; Carronade; Colonial; and I've seen reference to a No.38.

Mine is a Colonial

371415 Company emblem on the right-hand side of my machine.

And on Graces Guide I found a 1914 advertisement for the Colonial.

371418

In the bottom RH corner you can see 5 drills, 8 chisels, 2 'other things' and a spanner. Mine came with 7 chisels, and the 2 'other things' which look like maybe they're broaches of some sort?

371419 Before de-rusting.

The chisels are in very good condition with only light surface rust. The 7 chisels: 1/4”, 5/16”, 3/8”, 7/16”, 5/8”, 3/4”, and I think the one in the machine is 1/2”. And 2 flat end tools (left) that might be broaches?

I still need to figure out how to get them out of the machine. They're held in by a round taper.

371420 After de-rusting (powered brass wire brush, then 24 hours in citric acid)

Cheers, Vann.

[Boringgeoff]

Nice find Vann,
I wonder if putting a spanner on the shoulder of the chisel and giving it a twist will drop it out?
Cheers,
Geoff.

[NCArcher]

Lovely bit of gear Vann. I noted in the ad that it says the boring attachment can be changed for mortising in a few minutes. Do you have the boring attachment? Have to say I'm not 100% as to how this works.

[Matt Matt]

Vann, I like the old stuff and your passion. I love your posts. Keep them coming.

[DSEL74]

I think I've seen those pics someplace before lol

Can you explain the operation It looks like the little crank and plunge/return lever will interfere.

Is there a slot for a taper to fit to knock the bits out??(like a drill press) Or a way to wind the "quill" up until I releases the taper? (like a lathe til stock)

[DSEL74]

Used 1940 THOMAS MCPERSON Manual Mortiser in LILLIAN ROCK, NSW Price: $550 <255148> (http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/chain-mortiser/255148/)

Carronette - Relative of yours?

[DSEL74]

Have youeen this?

http://www.wikitoolia.nl/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=6&topic=68 (http://www.wikitoolia.nl/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=6&topic=68)

[Vann]

I think I've seen those pics someplace before lolYes, you got a preview (as requested in an earlier email).


Have youeen this?

http://www.wikitoolia.nl/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=6&topic=68 (http://www.wikitoolia.nl/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=6&topic=68)Yup. And interestingly, the OP, Bernhard, lives in New Zealand, not 50minutes away by car. I've contacted him. He's offered to show me how to work mine.


Nice find Vann,
I wonder if putting a spanner on the shoulder of the chisel and giving it a twist will drop it out?Thanks Geoff. I haven't had a chance today to try that. Maybe tomorrow?

The same Bernhard posted his Carronette on OWWM where he says "The chisel needed sharpening, but was a problem to get out. After looking at other mortisers on the Internet I found I could take it out with a ball joint separator." Bernhard tells me he's had to cull his collection and no longer has his mortiser.


Used 1940 THOMAS MCPERSON Manual Mortiser in LILLIAN ROCK, NSW Price: $550 <255148> (http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/chain-mortiser/255148/)

Carronette - Relative of yours?Yes, this is the same model as Bernhard's - but heavily modified. The motor and chain mortise are all a user mod. He's utilised the x, y & z motion of the table, and the vertical plunge set-up of the original. And I suppose the mass of the frame has also been a plus.

I won't be modifying mine :no:.

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

Used 1940 THOMAS MCPERSON Manual Mortiser in LILLIAN ROCK, NSW Price: $550 <255148> (http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/chain-mortiser/255148/)

Carronette - Relative of yours?Actually, this isn't the one I thought it was.

371586

That seems to be a common modification. This Carronette in Cooma has been similarly modified, but to a hollow chisel mortiser.

371587

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

:doh:
Lovely bit of gear Vann. I noted in the ad that it says the boring attachment can be changed for mortising in a few minutes. Do you have the boring attachment? Have to say I'm not 100% as to how this works.I don't think there's a boring attachment as such. I think drill bits fit into the same female taper as the chisels

371612

Looking at the illustration on the 1914 advert, it looks like the drill bit is fitted in the machine without any adaptor. Although detail is non-existant, the top ends of the drill bits laying at the foot of the machine, look the same as on the chisels.

To rotate the drill bit: rotate the crank handle on the RH side of the machine...

371613 371614

...then when drilling is complete, rotate the crank handle boss clockwise through 270 degrees to disengage.

Remove the drill bit (somehow), and insert the chisel bit. I guess the lining up the chisel bit relies of operator skill, but once aligned correctly, the bit can be turned 180 degrees to have the face of the chisel cut the left or right side of the mortise.

371615 Handle locked in RH position. Note the notch and the spring loaded locating pin.

371616 Handle locked in LH position. Note the crack from the notch to the top.

371617 Handle not quite engaged. Note the spring loaded locating pin in the depressed position.

I haven't yet figured out how to rotate the spindle beyond 180 degrees, without the pin engaging. I have to be careful, as I need to repair the crack in the casting before I end up with two castings :C.


Vann, I like the old stuff and your passion. I love your posts. Keep them coming.Thanks Matt. I'm sure my passion for old cast iron will be my downfall :no::doh:

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

I wonder if putting a spanner on the shoulder of the chisel and giving it a twist will drop it out?:2tsup: Nice one Geoff. That worked well. I can store it in the rack I made for all the chisels - once it comes out of the citric acid.

371651

Cheers, Vann.

[DSEL74]

Just a thought, are the ones on the left for doing the ends of the mortices of various widths, the odd two on the right for the sides in a long mortices in two passes front & back?

[Vann]

Just a thought, are the ones on the left for doing the ends of the mortices of various widths, the odd two on the right for the sides in a long mortices in two passes front & back?Hi DSEL.

I really don't know what those two "broaches" are for. The ends are square

374361

374360

374359

Usually when a heat treated tool comes out of the citric acid, the hardened portion comes out darker, but on the bigger "broach" at least, there's no darkening at all.

374358 OBM chisel left, showing darkened laminated steel - "broach" on right with no darkening.

This makes me think that maybe it supplied for the user to modify to a shape to suit some purpose (unknown) and then be hardened and tempered.
The Carron chisels don't appear to be laminated (as was common practice, way back when), and nor do the two "broaches" - so I guess any side or end could be turned into a cutting edge...

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

I've not done anything with my "Colonial" yet, but my regular searches of Trademe have revealed another solid chisel mortiser.

381837 381841 381838

This is listed as a Saracen. As far as I can determine it's made by Alex Mathieson & Sons (well known maker of hand tools such as chisels and infill woodplanes), who had a "Saracen" Tool Works in Glasgow (Scotland).

381840 Note the crescent and star under the 'Saracen' - Mathieson stamped many tools with that mark.

I found this picture showing the chisels that came with a Mathieson solid chisel mortiser.

381839 Picture from Powerhouse Museum collection in Sydney.

The tapered shanks on these look very similar to those supplied with my Carron 'Colonial'.

Just speculating, but I wonder if the two firms co-operated, with maybe one making the castings and the other the chisels.

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

:google2:is my friend.

On Hans Brunner's site I found the chisel mortiser, in the 1933 catalogue (9th edition) of Alex Mathieson & Sons Ltd, page 54, with chisels on page 55

http://www.hansbrunnertools.com/Mathiesoncat33plusreduced.pdf

So it's a No.52 "Saracen" pattern Improved Hand Mortising Machine.

And the 2 "other things" ("broaches") that came with my mortiser, appear to be "Blaze Drivers" (I'm still no wiser :no:).

Cheers, Vann.

[clear out]

I have one of these but it's a line shaft driven hollow chisel Mortiser.
The TTTG tool club has 3 of the thump ones.
They also have the cattle dog with at least 6 different Mathersons.
Raymond up north has a Matherson and another make.
Will try and post some pics tomorrow.
H.