Stanley No. 78 Rabbet Plane - should I get it new or second hand

[justonething]

I'm in need of a Rabbet Plane, particularly the Stanley No 78. but I'm unsure if I should buy it 2nd hand from ebay online (unseen) or brand new from Amazon. For example, This item (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-Stanley-No-78-Rabbet-Plane-circa-1910-Rebate-Plane-repaired-Very-Old-/131737633664?nma=true&si=MGSzIruW0XPxidTyELQKfimWyw4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557) was recently sold for 46 dollars + postage. While Amazon is selling a similar model (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009OYFU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) for $52 US + postage. Postage is the same in either case interestingly.

The advantage of buying it 2nd hand is that I'm buying a vintage plane, is likely to have been tuned and used at some point. The dis-advantage is that it is difficult to gauge the quality and trueness of the plane by looking at the photos or indeed if the item is complete. The advantage of buying it new is that return is possible, the item is always complete based on the description but the disadvantage is that the workmanship may not be as good as the 2nd hand equipment.

Would you have an opinion if I should buy it new or 2nd hand? and if 2nd hand, would a price similar to that sold as on the link a reasonable amount to pay?

[Luke Maddux]

I would never buy a new Stanley. Anything made in the last several decades is notorious for being of a low quality standard, particularly anything which is still being manufactured and sold in stores today.

That said, buying a used 78 has the significant disadvantage that, in my experience, the fence is almost always missing, at least when you find them in antique stores or at garage sales.

Someone else will know more about it than I do though.

Best of luck,
Luke

[jmk89]

I would look about for the equivalent plane made by WS or Woden in Birmingham. Here is a link (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-WS-Birmingham-No-A78-Duplex-Rabbet-Plane-Carpenters-Tools-/161899725454?hash=item25b1f9c28e:g:g2wAAOSwv-NWWGv2)to one on sale on eBay at present. When Hamptons (the Record company) acquired The Steel Nut & Joseph Hampton Ltd in the late 1950's, they kept their 078 with no front knob and a single fence rod but the WS/Woden W78 became the Record 778, so look for that as well (although the Record version doesn't have a front knob, so it's not quite as good :doh:.

I suffered with a Stanley #78 and then a Carter C78 knock-off for years before I got a WS W78 on fleabay.

The extra handle at the front helps a lot in keeping the beast straight and level and the dual fence rods make it much easier to keep the fence in place against the edge (I would replace the screws that someone has added with knurled screws - you should not have to use a screwdriver. I would also put a deep piece of wood on the fence so that it is easier to keep flat to the edge of the piece being rebated).

I like the knob at the front of the WS/Woden version of the #78 because it makes it easier to hold the front of the plane with a grip that encourages the plane to travel vertical, flat on the board and hard against the vertical face - you don't grip the knob with your little finger at the bottom and your palm towards the knob You slip the knob between your lift thumb and forefinger with the back of your hand facing up and then you arrange your left fingers onto the outside of the fence so they push the fence up against the work while the thumb and forefinger keep the knob vertical and the front of the plane in contact with the surface being planed. The point of this is that, like a golf grip, the left hand concentrates on keeping the plane (club) straight, square and in line, while the right hand provides the oomph.

By contrast, I have never found a satisfactory equivalent grip with a #78 (Record, Marples, Stanley or Carter) that has not front knob and only has a single fence rod - with only one rod the fence keeps pivoting about like a demented ballet dancer and putting your left thumb down the right side of the plane with the fingers on the fence has never felt as stable to me. Others who have better dexterity may differ on this, but that's my 2c worth.

[orraloon]

A good old one would be better if you can find one with all the parts. I would suggest you look at record or one of the other brands that used 2 arms to hold the fence. I have an old WS 78 and it is a very handy tool.
Regards
John

[orraloon]

Jeremy,
You just beet me to the post. I dont think you could do better that the WS or Woden. The front handle is a great feature but are pretty rare to find these days. That said anyone could make one without too much bother and attach it to any brand of 78.
Regards
John

[Luke Maddux]

FWIW the Veritas Skew Rabbet plane is often mentioned as the best available on the market today. I have one and absolutely love it. I can imagine you're trying to spend less than that, but it may be worth doing a cost/benefit analysis. It really is in a class all its own.

[orraloon]

Ebay WS 78 be quick.
Vintage W S Tools Birmingham Rebate Plane A78 Duplex Plane Good Condition | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-W-S-TOOLS-BIRMINGHAM-REBATE-PLANE-A78-DUPLEX-PLANE-GOOD-CONDITION-/371563849815?hash=item5682ee6857:g:8ugAAMXQpPhTkz9u)

Missing the nicker spur but should scrub up fine.
Regards
John

[jmk89]

If you search under Woden there is another on Fleabay at present


Screwing up in new ways every day :)

[orraloon]

If you search under Woden there is another on Fleabay at present


Screwing up in new ways every day :)

Better still. Costs less and has all the bits:2tsup:

Regards
John

[justonething]

Is this (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Woden-Rebate-Plane-/272152707571?hash=item3f5d90c1f3:g:ZscAAOSwWTRW1fXL) the one?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/ZscAAOSwWTRW1fXL/$_57.JPG

[Sawdust Maker]

that front handle wouldn't be too hard to make

[Chief Tiff]

I have a Record 778 and highly recommend it. I was fortunate enough to find a late 70's one unused and still in its original packaging in the UK about a month before my nephew flew over for a visit, so shipping was very reasonable! The single fence on the Stanley has a habit of unscrewing itself unless you really tighten up on it. Another major plus is the depth adjustment, the lever type on the Stanley is just annoying because it is in the way of my fingers. The lever on the Woden is cranked up out of the way and the Record of course has a screw adjustment. But don't get too hung up on this; rebate planes are designed for pretty heavy cuts with a rank set on the iron.

If you really like the Woden, Anant make a copy including the wooden knob on the front. Click here (http://www.anant-tools.com/duplex_rabbet_a78.html):

[jmk89]

Is this (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Woden-Rebate-Plane-/272152707571?hash=item3f5d90c1f3:g:ZscAAOSwWTRW1fXL) the one?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/ZscAAOSwWTRW1fXL/$_57.JPG

That's the one I meant


Screwing up in new ways every day :)

[justonething]

I emailed the seller to confirm postage, which is about 23 pounds. It's a very nice plane. I want it now :)

Chief Tiff, where do you get Anant planes?

[rob streeper]

FWIW the Veritas Skew Rabbet plane is often mentioned as the best available on the market today. I have one and absolutely love it. I can imagine you're trying to spend less than that, but it may be worth doing a cost/benefit analysis. It really is in a class all its own.

Second that. Great little planes.

[Chief Tiff]

I emailed the seller to confirm postage, which is about 23 pounds. It's a very nice plane. I want it now :)

Chief Tiff, where do you get Anant planes?

23 squid equates to about $50, providing you don't mind waiting a couple of months surface mail can be half that.

Anant don't have an Australian dealer so you'd have to contact the company directly. I have Indian friends who were happy to buy and ship from India; I think I paid $120 all up including shipping for a number 7, the Stanley 78 copy, the bullnose rebate plane and a 60 1/2 a couple of years ago.

These are NOT high end planes. Way too much paint or plating tries to hide the lack of decent finishing and some bits like spurs or nickers are just appallingly badly made. The irons though are of good quality steel that holds an edge well. I regard them as being equivalent to an old shed find where the owner rode them hard and put them away wet; ie they need some work to fettle them BUT they're very cheap and have all the bits.

[justonething]

Is there still sea mail?

[Vann]

Normally I would never suggest a new Stanley bench plane over an old one - but at nearly the same price for a complete new one, versus an incomplete old one, I'd maybe waver...


I would look about for the equivalent plane made by WS or Woden in Birmingham. Here is a link (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-WS-Birmingham-No-A78-Duplex-Rabbet-Plane-Carpenters-Tools-/161899725454?hash=item25b1f9c28e:g:g2wAAOSwv-NWWGv2)to one on sale on eBay at present. When Hamptons (the Record company) acquired The Steel Nut & Joseph Hampton Ltd in the late 1950's, they kept their 078 with no front knob and a single fence rod but the WS/Woden W78 became the Record 778, so look for that as well I agree, the two arm A78, W78 or 778 is a better design - but I disagree with the history.

There's no doubt that WS's A78 morphed into Woden's W78. But I believe Record brought out their 778 in direct competition with the W78 maybe 5 years before they took over Woden's plane lines. Apart from having two arms - and the general Stanley duplex shape - in detail the 778 has nothing in common with the W78 (different arm spacing; different method of fixing the arms; different style of nicker; different method of depth adjustment, etc). But I'm off topic :B


Is there still sea mail?I've had tools shipped from UK and USA in the past decade by surface mail. In NZ they ditched sea mail maybe 15 years ago (and have recently ditch the cheapest airmail as well - sods!). And I have a feeling UK may have ditched it two years ago (but I'm not sure - just couldn't find it on the Royal Mail website).

Cheers, Vann.

[justonething]

Been on a lookout for a Woden but hadn't been successful. Got a couple of stanley's though from the local tool sale.
This morning finally lady luck turned and picked up this beauty (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-W-S-Tools-Birmingham-Rebate-Plane-A78-Duplex-Brass-/401104568492?nma=true&si=ZudsrB9%252B3afeudBJ8YA7oxiiMGo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557). GBP 6.50 for the plane but 30 squid for postage. I think postage is a bit steep but overall I'm happy.

[wood hacker]

:2tsup:Nice score.

[Ubernoob]

Wow, that is still a good price after postage.

I bought two a couple of weeks back this one is very sad looking, neither came with fences which is a bummer as they aren't cheap!
377257

[goodvibes]

I emailed the seller to confirm postage, which is about 23 pounds. It's a very nice plane. I want it now :)

Chief Tiff, where do you get Anant planes?

India.

I've not had one in my hand, but have heard sufficient cautionary tales that I probably don't want to have one in my hand.

[justonething]

I've never bought from ebay uk before. It's a little different.
Firstly, Everything was converted to AUD, and there is no option that I could pay directly with GBP. (exchange rate is less favorable at 1.91 vs 1.84 from a normal Fx conversion).
Secondly, It appears that the seller is getting 5.99 for handling and shipping to Pitney Bowes that handles the global shipping on behalf of ebay, and Pitney Bowes gets 23.45 for international shipping.

I emailed the seller to confirm postage, which is about 23 pounds. It's a very nice plane. I want it now :)

Now I understand why it was GBP 23 postage for the last Woden that I was interested and is 30 quid for this one. The difference is how much this seller wanted for handling and packaging the parcel.

[62woollybugger]

I picked this one up at the TTTG sale this year, for more than double the price shown on the original price tag that was still on the box, $21.95. At a guess I'd say it was from the late 60's - early 70's. I don't think it was ever used & has all the original Stanley waxed paper wrapping.

377428

[justonething]

I picked this one up at the TTTG sale this year, for more than double the price shown on the original price tag that was still on the box, $21.95. At a guess I'd say it was from the late 60's - early 70's. I don't think it was ever used & has all the original Stanley waxed paper wrapping.

377428
Nice work!

[IanW]

Thanks to this thread, my old 78 now sports a front knob: 385594

I was using it today to trim some tenon cheeks and the flaking Jappaning around the front was irritating my hand. Then I remembered this thread, and the pics of the Woden with its wooden knob screwed into the front blade bed. So I decided to investigate how difficult it would be to cobble up something a little more hand-friendly. First, I checked the screw and found it is as near as dammit to 3/16" Whitworth. Got lots of 3/16" bolts, so I went ahead and made a knob. I was going to just screw it on with a round-headed bolt, but decided to go the whole hog & make a brass stud and nut, just for fun.

It wasn't quite as straightforward as I planned. I started with a bit of wood about 30 x 30mm, so I could turn a knob of reasonable size. To set it on the blade bed so that it doesn't hang over the edge & get in the way, I had to offset it a bit by cutting away the left right hand side (depends on which way you are looking at it!) to allow it to snug up to the arch that supports the toe: 385595

So what should have taken about 1/2 hour took about 3 times that, but I'm pleased with the result, and it's certainly more comfortable to use for planing tenon cheeks now! :U

Cheers,

[Simplicity]

I'm actually going to be a bit not nice Ian sorry.
I'm not a big fan of it.
It just sort of looks a bit out of place.
But that is just my opinion and yes I know I can be a bit out there ,with that kind of stuff.[emoji3]
But then as I think ,we both agree on if it works and works for you it works.
So I give you two [emoji106][emoji106]for that

Cheers Matt

[IanW]

Matt, no worries, I'll be the first to agree it's not the prettiest solution to a problem. :U
My reaction when I saw the pic of the Woden knob back however many posts was the same - I thought it was downright fugly. I thought I could improve on their pretty crude turning, & I think I did, a little, but it still looks like an afterthought, and of course, it is. However, it does give me something a bit more comfortable to hang onto when guiding the plane, so it stays until I either figure out how to fit something more attractive, or more functional, or re-japan it..... :D

Cheers,

[orraloon]

I would go comfortable to use before looks on a hand plane. I was lucky enough to get a plane with the original knob. I had not seen a front handle on a 78 before that but I was really impressed first time I used it. The front handle makes you feel more in control of the plane. If I can get away with it I often use the 78 instead of the shoulder plane as it is nicer to hold. Makes you wonder why the makers (Record and Stanley) let them go.
Regards
John

[planemaker]

The Stanley #78 is still an excellent plane to use despite its early vintage; the one I have is the Duplex model with the built in depth adjuster. Mine doesn't have the depth stop, but I don't find that a real issue. More importantly, the iron and knicker that's in service need to be sharp; the adjustable fence is set to match the required width of the rebate; and that you always work the depth of rebate with the grain.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/_DSC0161_zpsbf9m7onr.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/_DSC0161_zpsbf9m7onr.jpg.html)

[Fuzzie]

Stewie, Did some come as original with the two blades or is yours a marriage?

Cheers, Franklin

[planemaker]

Franklin; as far as I am aware the Stanley Duplex #78 was only supplied with the 1 lever cap and cutting iron. Stanley No. 78 instructions (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~flip/wood/planes/stanley-078.html)

Stewie;

[planemaker]

Incidentally; the rear cutting iron has the slots on the back to accommodate the depth adjuster; while the front cutting iron is non slotted.

The depth adjustment lever on the Stanley#78 was introduced in 1925.

Stewie;

[Vann]

The Stanley #78 is still an excellent plane to use despite its early vintage; the one I have is the Duplex model...

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/_DSC0161_zpsbf9m7onr.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/_DSC0161_zpsbf9m7onr.jpg.html)Hi Stewie.

All Stanley No.78 planes were known as "duplex", because of the two positions for the iron. I don't know if Record, Woden and WS Tools called theirs 'duplex' as well, or if it was a Stanley marketing strategy. One of the irons and lever caps on yours will be a 'ring-in'.

It would be interesting to see how well it works with the two irons :U.

Cheers, Vann.

[derekcohen]

A few cents worth of my experiences with rebate planes.

I have owned a Stanley #78, replaced it with a Record #778 (still have it), also have a ECE moving filletster, but typically use a Veritas Skew Rabbet Plane. The Woden is the forerunner of the Record (Record bought out Woden).

The first matter to take care of with the rebate plane is add a sub-fence. This has purposes ...

1. For planing rebates the sub-fence adds accuracy. I will align the edge if the workpiece with the edge of my bench (which is square to the top). The (wider and deeper) fence rides against this, ensuring a vertical orientation.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Woodworking/Jacobsobsession4.jpg

2. The other reason for the sub-fence is to protect your fingers!! I cannot recall the number of times I would nick a finger tip on the inside of the plane because the blade was uncovered ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_74de2f80.jpg

Ironically, the double arm on the #778 makes it more vulnerable than the single-armed #78.

The #778 ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Woodworking/Jacobsobsession1.jpg

The #78 ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/UsingRebatePlanes_html_m19f3949c.jpg

A thick fence will offer some protection ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Woodworking/Jacobsobsession3.jpg

Now to the matter of a front knob. In my book this is a definite no-no.

The problem with using a knob is that one runs the risk of tilting the plane off the vertical. It is easy to rock the body side-to-side.

A better way if holding the plane is to push it from the side of the fence ...

Here is an old picture, taken on an old bench, shortly after I received the planes from Lee Valley for testing.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Rebates%20with%20Veritas%20Skew/UsingRebatePlanes_html_m333f5356_zpsrzxmtgve.jpg

Since then I have added the sub-fence PLUS I have removed the front knob. This is where I rest my thumb - the palm pushes against the fence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MovingForward_html_34fc2827.jpg

Lastly, after all the talk of the fence, you can use the plane without one. In fact it is a skill that is important to learn since there are situations where a fence cannot be used. For example, below is a curved rebate for a drawer bottom that fits a curved drawer front (Yes, it is a shoulder plane - an excellent plane for this task).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Rebate-with-Shoulder-Plane_zpsxfolmzu0.jpg

Score the cut line deeply. Undercut with a chisel to create a wall. Then begin planing against the wall at a steep angle. As you go deeper and the wall is exposed, you can level the plane until you are planing square against the wall.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

Derek, I guess I never use the fence on my 78, so at least my fingers are safe from that angle. :U

And the way I use my 78, the knob is a godsend, so I'm not giving it up now, no way.. :q

I've had a 78 for a very long time, but it's only recently that I found a fence with its arm, and a depth-stop to boot, in a boxful of junk, when cleaning out FIL's shed a few years ago (had I not been there & recognised them, they would now be sitting under a few tons of earth at the local tip!). I made up a little box to keep plane, fence & depth-stop together, in the hope they might stay that way when my offspring are cleaning out my shed, & not suffer the involuntary separation so many 78 fences have experienced over the years. But so far, I have not used either fence or depth-stop in a real situation. I simply don't plane rebates, life is far too short and there are much more efficient ways of producing them, imo. What my 78 does for me is refine tenon cheeks, a task which it performs well, but in my view it's next to useless for much else. If there is precision work to be done, my shoulder plane has no peer in my toolbox.... :;

We all have our little idiosyncrasies.... :D
Cheers,



Cheers,

[derekcohen]

it's only recently that I found a fence with its arm, and a depth-stop to boot

Ian, that's probably the reason you use the #78 in such an unorthodox manner! :)


What my 78 does for me is refine tenon cheeks, a task which it performs well, but in my view it's next to useless for much else. If there is precision work to be done, my shoulder plane has no peer in my toolbox.... http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/mf_wink.gif

mmmmm ... I find this unusual, to say the least! :U (about using it for cheeks, that is).

It is a long time back when I last used a #78, but I don't think it was much different from the Record #778 in use - other than the blade adjuster, which is better in the Record. My #778 also sports a LN blade, from the days that they made blades for other planes. It is a little thicker than the Record or Stanley.

Still, these are "coarse" planes, designed to take thick shavings. As a result, the mouths are large, and this makes it difficult to set the plane up for fine work/ fine shavings. The shoulder plane, on the other hand, is generally designed with a very small mouth. The advantage of the Veritas, Stanley, Record and Lie Nielsen models is that the mouth can be adjusted, and opened for coarse work.


We all have our little idiosyncrasies.... http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/standard/biggrin.gif

I've known that for years! :U

Regards from Perth

Derek

[planemaker]

Derek, I guess I never use the fence on my 78, so at least my fingers are safe from that angle. :U

And the way I use my 78, the knob is a godsend, so I'm not giving it up now, no way.. :q

I've had a 78 for a very long time, but it's only recently that I found a fence with its arm, and a depth-stop to boot, in a boxful of junk, when cleaning out FIL's shed a few years ago (had I not been there & recognised them, they would now be sitting under a few tons of earth at the local tip!). I made up a little box to keep plane, fence & depth-stop together, in the hope they might stay that way when my offspring are cleaning out my shed, & not suffer the involuntary separation so many 78 fences have experienced over the years. But so far, I have not used either fence or depth-stop in a real situation. I simply don't plane rebates, life is far too short and there are much more efficient ways of producing them, imo. What my 78 does for me is refine tenon cheeks, a task which it performs well, but in my view it's next to useless for much else. If there is precision work to be done, my shoulder plane has no peer in my toolbox.... :;

We all have our little idiosyncrasies.... :D
Cheers,

Cheers,

Ian; I have read your comments 3 times to make sure I hadn't missed something; if your not prepared to use the #78 as it was designed to be used then dont blame the tool.

regards Stewie;

[IanW]

Ian; I have read your comments 3 times to make sure I hadn't missed something; if your not prepared to use the #78 as it was designed to be used then dont blame the tool.

regards Stewie;

Stewie, I am not 'blaming' the tool at all! It's plenty good enough for the job it was designed to do, which is to cut rebates. Most rebates in cabinet work don't need to be particularly tidy, as they almost always end up out of sight, so as Derek rightly says, this is not a refined tool, & it doesn't need to be. Mainly because I don't like spending many minutes sweating over a job that can be done in two quick passes (and often more neatly), on a tablesaw, I just don't use the 78 for its ''intended" purpose, hence it is 'useless' to me in that role.

Derek, I think you misunderstood me - I use my 78 for refining the cheeks of tenons, not the shoulders, which is most certainly a job for the shoulder plane. While I can confidently saw dovetails to the line, my accuracy on the longer, wider cuts of tenon cheeks isn't nearly as reliable, particularly since my eyesight lost its acuity. So I saw with a fairly generous margin, which means I don't have to constantly check the back of the cut, or switch it around, then use the 78 to clean up to the scribe lines. Planing across the grain is an easy way to remove wood, so it usually only takes a few swipes to get them nice and flat & parallel.

I first tried using a 10 1/2 for the same job, but at least in my hands, it's nowhere near as good as the 78. The 'coarse-ness' of the 78 gives it the advantage here, because basically, I'm using it as a "scrub plane" which can cut up to a shoulder. Perhaps my use of the plane is 'unorthodox', but it sure is a quick & easy way to get tightly-fitting tenons..:U

As it happens, I've got a bunch of good-sized tenons to fit this very day, on a bench I'm currently making for the newly-renovated garage (so the better half can do her messier craft work in comfort). I'll be sharpening up the 78 very shortly...... :D

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Hi Ian

I did get that you were planing the tenon cheeks, not the shoulders. Personally, I do not like using a plane for this task, with the exception of a router plane. I'd rather use a chisel or a rasp (if a smidgeon needs to come off). I find a plane difficult to judge how much, and where, it is taking off waste.

The router plane is like a jigged chisel. What it does is (as you are aware) remove waste so that the cheek is parallel to the stretcher. With a chisel I pare to the line.

I put more trust in my hands with a chisel than a plane or a machine. The worst planes for cheeks are those that are narrow hand high - leave you with less visibility and less balance (easy to tip). Even the low planes, such as a skew block plane or a rabbet block plane, are too wide (and difficult to see where you are working), except for really large cheeks (which are not typical of furniture making).

Ironically, I have several shoulder planes, and these tend to be used for rebates more than for shoulders. Who named these tools? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[justonething]

Derek, I guess I never use the fence on my 78, so at least my fingers are safe from that angle. :U

And the way I use my 78, the knob is a godsend, so I'm not giving it up now, no way.. :q

I've had a 78 for a very long time, but it's only recently that I found a fence with its arm, and a depth-stop to boot, in a boxful of junk, when cleaning out FIL's shed a few years ago (had I not been there & recognised them, they would now be sitting under a few tons of earth at the local tip!). I made up a little box to keep plane, fence & depth-stop together, in the hope they might stay that way when my offspring are cleaning out my shed, & not suffer the involuntary separation so many 78 fences have experienced over the years. But so far, I have not used either fence or depth-stop in a real situation. I simply don't plane rebates, life is far too short and there are much more efficient ways of producing them, imo. What my 78 does for me is refine tenon cheeks, a task which it performs well, but in my view it's next to useless for much else. If there is precision work to be done, my shoulder plane has no peer in my toolbox.... :;

We all have our little idiosyncrasies.... :D
Cheers,



Cheers,


That is one use I haven't thought of :)

[IanW]

.....Ironically, I have several shoulder planes, and these tend to be used for rebates more than for shoulders. Who named these tools? :) ....

The dogmatists! :U

There can't be too many tools that don't see uses that the maker never envisaged, and I'm talking about more than using a chisel to open paint cans or clean finger-nails. I guess most of us amateurs started out with a limited tool chest, & with no-one to tell us what we 'ought' to use for any specific task, we just used whatever tools we had that might do the job. After a while, it seems so natural to do it that way, you don't think of it as a 'non traditional' use of the tool. I just happened early-on, to try using the 78 for cleaning wider tenon cheeks, which worked well for me, and soon became a habit. I don't have trouble getting the plane to take even shavings, and in fact find it easier to make an accurate, parallel tenon with a plane than with a paring chisel, especially on tenons wider than 50mm or so. True, most furniture tenons are not very wide, and in fact I do try to fit narrower ones 'off saw', but there are enough wider ones that need attention, like table aprons, for e.g.

I do use chisels quite a bit, but mostly on narrow tenons. In fact the way I was taught at school all those years ago was to saw both shoulders & cheeks a little proud of the scribe lines, then clean up both with a wide chisel. So I'm more or less happy with both techniques, but the 78 gets the guernsey on anything wide.

Using a router plane to clean up tenon cheeks would feel strange to me, and I'd be bound to make a right mess of it. I never got on with those gadgets until you inspired me to make a little woodie like yours, & I've taken to it like the proverbial duck to water, when it comes to cleaning trenches or anything where it's supported on both sides. But while I can see you could keep it level for a relatively short tenon, how on earth do you keep it accurately registered when cantilevered over a tenon that's 50mm or more long? We've apparently learnt different skill-sets!
:U
Cheers,

[derekcohen]

Hi Ian

2" should not be too difficult. The one below is about 1 1/2" ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_244d698.jpg

Some simply place a second stretcher under the other end of the router plane and balance it on the two ends.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

Derek, as I said, it's just a different skill-set - you're muscles have obviously learnt to keep plenty of pressure on the supported side to counteract the drag of the cutter. There would still be a learning-curve to be able to do it accurately & efficiently, but perhaps not as high or as steep as with my method, which relies solely on hand-eye co-ordination, & we all know how that can let us down on a bad day! I readily accept the advantage of having a fixed cutter to automatically restrict the depth relative to the face of the board. (But what if your boards aren't all precisely thicknessed, or your tenon is offset, eh? Then you have to fiddle about re-setting the cutter depth stop. Meanwhile, I've just fliped my board & planed to the scribe lines and am on to he next. :D )

If I were starting over or advising a newbie, I would certainly recommend starting with the router plane technique rather than mine.

I notice you have already cut the second shoulder or haunch in your demo pic. If I'm doing 4-shoulderd tenons or a haunch, I remove the wide cheeks first, then clean up my tenons to the scribe lines while they're still there. I then scribe & make the secondary cuts. Leaving the lines gives a wider surface to register the plane on, plus something to work to.

We are hijacking this thread a bit - we should start a new thread on "multiple ways to make tenons".... :U

Cheers,

[orraloon]

With a router plane you can use another bit of wood same thickness to support the other side. I only started using a router plane a few years ago and also found it hard to do one sided. It is a tool that is growing on me and I find I am using it more as time goes by. As you say Ian this thread is going off at a tangent so I'll finish by saying I still really like my 78 with it's front handle.
Regards
John

[IanW]

...... I still really like my 78 with it's front handle....

Yeah, John I used my 78 quite a bit over the last coupe of days and the new front knob has been a big improvement to comfort on the job I was using it for. It stays. But on the rare occasion that I actually use it for its intended purpose, I would naturally put my left hand on the fence to help keep the plane square & snugged up to the edge of the board, as I also do when using a plough plane. So if you're buying a 78 solely for rebating, I wouldn't think you'd need to bother about a front knob..... :U

Cheers,