Help needed with a Stiletto

[Bushmiller]

It is very likely that the word "stiletto" conjures up a couple of images in the fertile imagination of the human mind.

One of them might be this:
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Although they do come in other colours:

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There again you might associate the stiletto with assassins or you simply like pointy things:


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But now I have your attention :wink:, have a gander at this:
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It is a handsaw apparently under the brand name of Stiletto. I put it to one side quite a while back, not knowing anything about it. Then just recently I saw a similar saw sold on Ebay:
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Similar but not the same by a big margin. It shares the name and there is a similarity in the logo in so far as there is a stiletto (but no shoes). In the second etch there is a reference to the Pacific Hardware and Tool/Steel Co (can't quite read the word), which I think was in San Francisco, but I can find no reference under the hardware stores in Erv Schaffer's book.

These two saws may not be connected at all.

My saw, which I should state at the onset is destined to be restored, sharpened and put up for sale, is quite interesting. I believe it to potentially be an extremely good saw. I only say potentially as it is not until it is sharpened and tested that I will be able to state that categorically.

However the eagle eyed amongst you may care to look closely at the handle. Note the wheat carving, hounds teeth top and bottom and particularly the shape of the lower guard.
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Is it reminiscent of these handles?
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The first one is a Disston No.12 (late version) and the other two are Simonds No. 4 1/2 and No.5. The Simonds handles in particular are very similar.

On my Stiletto saw there is an eagle style Warrented Superior medallion and nickel plated brass hardware, which was traditionally only reserved for the most expensive saws. In fact I don't believe Simonds ever used nickel plating so that tends to discount them as the manufacturer despite the similarity in the handle. Disston certainly did use nickel plating and Atkins too.

So any thoughts? On shoes, knives or hand saws: I don't really mind and quite happy to discuss them all. One more thing:​ The saw plate is nicely tapered from about .038" to .023": Another indication of quality.

I hope this thread works as the gremlins stuck again with the pix.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

I'm going to be really ignorant.
And ask why the wheat carving on saws
Is there some historical reason

[rob streeper]

I'm going to be really ignorant.
And ask why the wheat carving on saws
Is there some historical reason

Mr. Murray, one of my 7th-9th grade shop teachers, said they were for grip. He also said not to buy any saw without a carved handle as the newer saws were garbage. This would have been about 1975 or so.

[Simplicity]

I was thinking grip
Rob. but thought na that's too easy
So maybe MR MURRAY was
Right
Saws hundred years ago were used a hell of lot more then, than now.

[Bushmiller]

The odd thing about saw handles Matt is that they were not always carved. For example, if you look at the Disston brand, the early saws had no carving, but were all the same impressively elegant.

I think what happened was that the saw business was hugely competitive with an enormous amount of businesses producing hand saws. Success was all about marketing and making a point of difference. Disston was supreme at this. I am not exactly sure when the first carved handles appeared. I would have to research that one, but I would guess around the 1870s. Somebody might know off the top of their head.

I think realistically the wheat carving was like the nib and purely for decoration. Incidentally, some companies used carving other than "wheat." Atkins had a floral pattern, although I don't think it was applied by a carving process, and later on in the second half of the twentieth century Sandvik had their own style of decoration.

I think it is a big step of the imagination to think that the wheat carving offered any degree of grip. However, in a way, Rob's Mr. Murray was right in that any saw with carving was likely to be a better grade of saw. There was no point in adding production cost to rubbish.

It was one of my points with this Stiletto. All the trappings of an expensive saw are right there. Complex handle, nickle plated brass screws, wheat carving and tapered saw plate.

I don't think that tracking this one down will be easy, which is why I attempted to enlist the sleuths.

Regards
Paul

[D.W.]

This is just an opinion, and nothing more than that. I've got a lot of saws with wheat handles....but....I think wheat was a way to adorn handles in such a way that didn't involve the skill that it takes to actually make a crisp looking handle that doesn't have wheat on it. Take a mid-late spear and jackson handle or groves handle and compare it to a handle with wheat. The handle with wheat pattern can be done entirely with machines, but not the english handle.

I don't know functionally whether or not they have a purpose (grip, etc).

No clue on the makers of the saw, but the stiletto brand is not too uncommon around here in the states.....but, where it's common is axes and hatchets. I bought a low-priced double bit kelly axe head not too long ago (vintage, of course) to handle it, and under the crud, it has a stiletto stamp.

I've never seen a stiletto etched saw in person, but I think the branding of it has some appeal, as opposed to writing "Craftsman" on something, which definitely does not!!

[Bushmiller]

D.W.

I think you are quite right with the Stiletto name being quite common. There seems to be a range of goods around that reflect this. Much of it seems to be in the recent past and this is muddying the waters a little.

This is a link to the Stiletto Tool Co

https://stiletto.com/t-about.aspx

They started in 1849 and their current logo is the same as that on the saw sold on Ebay that I have highlighted above. It is possible that my saw is from that company, but from an earlier era, which would explain the difference in logo.

It also looks like the Bad Axe saw company has a saw bearing the name Stiletto but this is very modern. In fact it is their very latest model.

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I did try extensive searching through the net before posting here, but my limited abilities in the computing world did not produce results.

Regards
Paul

[ian]

I fond this link https://stiletto.com/

can't copy and paste the company logo, but it looks remarkable similar to


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also https://www.survivalmonkey.com/threads/very-very-very-good-stiletto-edo-me-hand-saws.51990/
https://d3axvdqkyu09xk.cloudfront.net/attachments/dscf7619-jpg.35224/

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Ian for that link. It does in fact take me to the same place I linked earlier despite the different address. I copied the "About Us" page so that is why it was not immediately obvious.

I did see the saw above when I went to google images and my guess is that it is very modern judging by the handle shape and hole in the toe (why the hell do they do that? Did nobody point out the huge hole in the handle?) The interesting thing about that example is the logo is identical to the saw sold on Ebay by Jerry Oosting (one of the better sellers by the way).

Regards
Paul

[ian]

Hi Paul

"my bad" as today's kids say. I took far too long to compose my response and you posted while I was still writing.

The hole in the toe -- note that it's elongated -- is so you can hang it on a single nail. hanging by the generally requires two nails :rolleyes:


I also found these
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/UuUAAMXQVERS8P~n/s-l1600.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ZwkAAOxyOMdS8P~2/s-l1600.jpg

[Picko]

[QUOTE=Bushmiller;1944922]It is very likely that the word "stiletto" conjures up a couple of images in the fertile imagination of the human mind.

My first thought was one of these because I learnt to ski behind one. A Swiftcraft Stiletto - great little boat.

[Bushmiller]

Thanks Picko

Your imagination and mine are not exactly the same, but if I had had that information I would have used it too. :)

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Ian

I know what you mean about the posts and having the glory removed while typing, but don't fret, that is a truly magnificent find.

On the second page the S8H looks like an exact replica of my saw: The only exception is the etch, which depicts the more modern version. As we know from other manufacturers the etches frequently evolved at least and sometimes changed completely.

Something that is very telling is the wheat carving on the flat of the handle: I have been cleaning up the handle this morning and I realised that the sprigs, if that is the right name, are two distinct pieces. Most times they are joined if you have a look at the three other handles I posted. Your advertisement replicates the two separate sprigs the same as my saw.

It also shows the same saw nut pattern and identifies nickel plated screws. The only question, to my mind, now is where these saws fit into the timeline.

Do you have the date of this advertisement? Their saws are clearly aimed at similarly numbered saws of the other manufacturers. So we have No.12s and No.8s for example.

I would guess from the prices that this was prior to America's entry into WW1.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

While the sleuths were at work I cleaned up the saw plate and started work on the handle, but I have had to stop operations as a rainstorm has come through. Pix later hopefully.

I also sent an email through to the Pacific Hardware Co before I saw the advertisement to ask if they can supply any further information.

Things are a lot more hopeful now than when I first got up this morning.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

The sawplate cleaned up quite nicely with no major issues. There is just a small amount of pitting at the toe:

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With the handle off there was an interesting mark at the top of the plate. A "4." It was quite common for various marks to be placed under the handle as that would identify the intended use for the saw as it was transferred around the workshop or in the case of Disston around the different sheds. Their No.12, for example, always has an "X" (it stood for Extra refined) stamped on the plate in the same position as this mark on the Stiletto.

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What did the "4" signify? Don't know. Four sawnuts? Several of their saws had four sawnuts so that would not have been enough to distinguish the model.

The 8ppi on the heel is also more visible now.

The tooth line needs some work:

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The handle was clamped in the vice and became a rain soaked casualty of the violent storm that came through so I am now waiting for it to dry out. I suppose one day I will get a shed with four walls instead of three :rolleyes: .

Regards
Paul

[RayG]

Nice find Paul, Looks like it will get another hundred years of life. :2tsup:

I'm curious about the pictures of the two new stiletto saws that Ian posted. It says on the etch, Japanese style teeth? I'm pretty sure it's not a pull saw, maybe it's japanese filed backwards?

Ray

[ian]

Sorry Paul

I'm not with it tonight leaving out the reference.

I found the pages on Ebay, described as 1917 AD Stiletto Hand Saws Rip Panel Skew Back Straight Back
Seller information: gdawg (http://www.ebay.com/usr/gdawg?_trksid=p2047675.l2559) (11169 (http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=gdawg&iid=310866721637&ssPageName=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2560) )

and hoped that the information might be useful.

[Bushmiller]

It's no matter Ian. You came up trumps and can rest on your laurels!

I looked up that seller, which I have seen before but not paid much in the way of attention, and just searching on his listings for "saw" produced well over 400 results!

What those results showed is that the Pacific Hardware and Steel Company were, and may still be, a force to be reckoned with. They obviously have had a huge range of products. I hope they reply to my email as it could be most informative and potentially may fill in the gaps.

My hesitation is that their contact email had no facility to send them pictures and it may at a glance look too complicated. I live in hope.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Nice find Paul, Looks like it will get another hundred years of life. :2tsup:

I'm curious about the pictures of the two new stiletto saws that Ian posted. It says on the etch, Japanese style teeth? I'm pretty sure it's not a pull saw, maybe it's japanese filed backwards?

Ray

Thanks Ray.

Yes, when I was researching before posting the thread I spotted that too and found it most confusing. In fact I don't quite know what to make of it. I didn't pursue it at the time as it was not in my focus.

Regards
Paul

[ch!ppy]

so many old saws (brands etc), its intriguing and interesting to find the stories behind them.

how, who and why did they come up with that name 'stiletto' . my guess is that it came from its origin of meaning in some languages meaning dagger or sharp points. but more specifically it came from a German company that used that exact same logo.

and though the brand name "stiletto' is still used today and is linked to that page ( https://stiletto.com/t-about.aspx ) that says it goes back to 1849 Baker and Hamilton. but even on that page it is missing some large gaps in its own history as far as i can see, certainly to do with its origin of name.

from what i've been able to find , baker & hamilton went to San Fran like many others in the hopes of getting rich the quick way, following everyone else for the gold rush. they didn't succeed in finding gold so opened up a hardware store, selling to the miners became very successful, grew much bigger and also sold farming equipment, purchased from wholesalers nearby and far away. they grew very very big and basically had a modern day equivalent of a bunnings or a department store, perhaps even more so! they sold bicycles, carriages, firearms, huge amount of farming equipment large and small. i would assume they either had children that continued on the business or it was a public shared company. because as far as i can tell one died in 1892 and the other in 1893 (i read their obits in an old news paper). imo they were simply merchants that sold other peoples wares, but were large enough to have things made for them with their name on it (Baker & Hamiton. Later on Baker, Hamiton & Pacific Co). it would appear they had a close relationship (both in business and location) to Pacific Hardware and Tool company, that did use and advertise the saws using the 'stiletto' brand and logo as above (and just about everything else they could stamp it on to. P.H&T using the logo and brand Stiletto are listed in early saw catalogues/advertisements c1907 (that i have seen and others) alongside diston and other brands, with buck saw, crosscut saws etc, look virtually identical to diston saws one might even assume some are the same with just different logo, or tiny differences made after the initial blank.

Pacific Company had their own rolling steel plant but i don't know whether they made their own steel, i don't get that impression they did, or if they did didn't put it to a lot of use. it may be that they purchased steel ingots and reformed to make other things, largey farming equipment is what they were known for apart from being wholesale merchants of a variety of things them selfs , (same as Baker & Hamilton but sold retail). the saw with the older logo certainly might suggest this, as it says english steel, even then it is quite possible someone else made it (say Simonds) and depending on the year either Pacific Co or Baker and Hamilton Pacific put the finishing touches on it, including the Stiletto logo, but quite likely done for them. Pacific company (even prior to merging with B&H) used the stiletto logo so i would say the claims of the stiletto brand going back to 1849 in their company are probably incorrect or misleading as stated on that Stiletto website that sell hammers and pry bars.

Pacific compony used that logo on things they didn't make them selfs, as i have seen a number of things, such as padlocks and safes made by famous big companies in other locations of the US but having the stiletto logo on it, sold from their San Fran wholesale warehouse to others, such as B&H. considering they imported/sourced and sold everything from cutlery to safes with that brand it might be a stretch to say if they made actual saws themselves or if they just made some farming equipment.

afaik Pacific Company first opened in 1903 (one source says P.H. &Co first opened a warehouse in 1903 but another shows it was doing business in 1896-if so it must of been from a small premise) and in 1918 Pacific Company sold off their building, including the rolling steel mill to , Fuller & Co, whom made paint and the property was transformed to make paint, not steel implements. it appears at the same time Pacific Company merged with Baker & Hamilton ,post 1918 up till around the late 1930's (maybe 1942) advertising saws under the name Baker, Hamilton & Pacific Co name using the Stiletto brand and Logo. Baker & Hamilton sold everything imaginable, from homewares to vehicles, but only some things they put Stiletto on, usually things that Pacific had brought with them.

The exact brand name and logo comes from a German maker of cut throat razors Miller, Sloss & Scott (1891-1901). this company (or at least the Stiletto portion of it) was absorbed by Pacific Hardware & Steel about 1901 but afaik the razors were still made in Germany after (?). no doubt this gave the Pacific Hardware company rights to use the Logo and they put it on everything they could as far as can tell.

if you look at the razor end on it certainly resembles a stiletto point.


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at a stretch i can see how the word Stiletto is apt for a saw (has teeth to a fine point). but how that word relates to hammers is beyond me. then again i always thought Keystone was a strange thing for Disston to use on his saws. to me it relates more to masonry .

cheers
chippy

[Bushmiller]

Chippy

Thanks for your input.

I think the Stiletto brand may have been an early example of "home brand." It was very common for the larger purchasers of hand saws to ask for their own logo to be added to that of the original manufacturer.

Disston had a complete range dedicated to just that. It did not compromise the integrity of their own saws and those large hardware stores (some of them chains) had enough credibility to sell under their own name.

The thing that surprises me now is that with the sheer size of the Pacific Hardware and Steel Co., it does not feature under the hardware stores section in Erv Schaffers "Handsaw Makers of North America", which until now I had regarded as reasonably comprehensive. I have found omissions in the past, but nothing quite as significant as this. That may be a little harsh as I am continually finding new information myself.

Once I had the handle off the saw plate today I gave it a tap and it had a beautiful tone to it. I quickly dug up a Disston no.12 which is awaiting a handle and compared. The Stiletto was superior! This actually surprises me as from the advertisment that Ian found the No.8 was only a mid range saw.

Regards
Paul

[Luke Maddux]

Paul,

It's definitely an interesting story which appears to be unfolding here. It's cool to see everyone chipping in on the detective work.

I'm excited to see what it looks like when you've resuscitated it. Given its condition and its resemblance to a No. 12 I expect it will be a beaut.

Cheers,
Luke

[ch!ppy]

Chippy

Thanks for your input.

I think the Stiletto brand may have been an early example of "home brand." It was very common for the larger purchasers of hand saws to ask for their own logo to be added to that of the original manufacturer.

Disston had a complete range dedicated to just that. It did not compromise the integrity of their own saws and those large hardware stores (some of them chains) had enough credibility to sell under their own name.

The thing that surprises me now is that with the sheer size of the Pacific Hardware and Steel Co., it does not feature under the hardware stores section in Erv Schaffers "Handsaw Makers of North America", which until now I had regarded as reasonably comprehensive. I have found omissions in the past, but nothing quite as significant as this. That may be a little harsh as I am continually finding new information myself.

Once I had the handle off the saw plate today I gave it a tap and it had a beautiful tone to it. I quickly dug up a Disston no.12 which is awaiting a handle and compared. The Stiletto was superior! This actually surprises me as from the advertisment that Ian found the No.8 was only a mid range saw.

Regards
Paul


yeah, a type of home brand was what i was getting at. and indeed the big name saw makers sold them 'rebadged' , like some cars etc are now.

interesting about the comparison you find between the #12 and the old stiletto #8. i guess with just the two to compare there are some cohorts that may effect a definitive answer to whether the stiletto steel/saw is overall generally better than the #12. some tension might be lost on the #12, age, other things etc etc.

i saw those ads posted earlier, on eBay as well (but were put up before i finished writing my post), you might notice the #8 are heavier than the higher models despite being skew backed which is designed to save some weight (amazing they put that detail in actually!). one would expect the gauge on the (disston) #12 if made equal length and tooth as the stiletto #8 to weigh less, so the ring will be different anyway, more baritone on the stiletto than soprano.

it would be interesting to know the date on yours as well. by the looks of things Pacific Hardware altered the Logo, obviously. with the later logo being set inside the double ended arrow, yours is like the original logo taken from the german stiletto company. i haven't nailed it down yet but somewhere between 1912 and 1917 they changed. your number 8 is older than the earlier pictured advert from 1917. yours is more like this one , this picture happens to be from 1908, but how long they kept this same saw with same logo going i don't know, so there is no assurance yours is from 1908 as of yet.

also the older saws (by number) are often ,not always, higher on the totem pole, as the years go by they introduce 'better' models. it might be that your #8 was closer to the top of the range (if in fact it is from ten years earlier) than the 1917 advert shows.

its also interesting in the 1917 advert that they still say the #8 etc are hand filed and such. with simonds , disston etc the lower down the price range usually means less hand work done. its demonstrated clearly in some simonds adverts about how the top most models get more refined work done and hand sharpened whereas the lesser models are machine sharpened. i wonder if the Stiletto advert is accurate in this respect. the higher end models in the 1917 advert weigh less, thereby assuming thinner gauge, more taper and work gone into them perhaps.

with you ring test, it could also just come down to top class english steel was just better than Disstons lol. that would not make some people happy :no: :)

cheers
chippy

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[ch!ppy]

just found a couple more pics that might be interesting, especially the tool box; note the wooden case uses the new logo whereas the saws in particular listed as #S17P. 20 &24 inches panel saws (that wold be found in the earlier post) are illustrated to look like the old etching and logo used.

the catalogue as a whole has many other brands in it, including Stanly bedrock planes and all manner of other stanley tools and makes as well


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on the strength of those pictures (which is a little thin for sure) if thats a reasonable footing; then my guess might be that Pacific H. & Steel used the original logo up until 1916 (so possibly Paul your saw may be as old as 1916-17)...or there abouts before changing completely, or rather just selling off old stock that may of still had the old logo in 1917 but have made the formal transition to the new Logo already as shown on letter heads and most tools

i've looked at a number of 1917 catalogues (and 1912 but can't find anything after-1912 that definitively show the older logo ), all the letter heads on the pages show the new logo, and most, or rather the great majority of tools seem to have pictured the new stiletto dagger logo within the two ended arrow outline.

however a couple of exceptions on a couple of pages might be of interest. they show the tool with the old logo still. (is it an error with the illustrator, perhaps, or perhaps they are some transitional old stock that is illustrated with the older logo still. which i guess means the logo may have been changed around late 1916 or early 1917

[Bushmiller]

Chippy

You too have come up trumps along with Ian when I just folded!

You an Ian can expect a pedestal in the post anytime soon :D .

Actually you make a very good point in the case for error. All along the way there is the possibility of mistakes being made. The illustrator worked from samples and the wrong sample may have been picked. So I don't think that possibility should be discounted.

I too have some good news. I have received an email from Josh at Pacific Hardware and he requested that I send him the pictures. It turns out that he collects the vintage Stilletto goods. He said he would see what he could do to identify the saw. I mentioned that where we have drawn a complete blank is the manufacturer of the saw, which we don't believe was Pacific Hardware.

I only sent this about an hour ago so I am looking forward to a reply.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Paul,

It's definitely an interesting story which appears to be unfolding here. It's cool to see everyone chipping in on the detective work.

I'm excited to see what it looks like when you've resuscitated it. Given its condition and its resemblance to a No. 12 I expect it will be a beaut.

Cheers,
Luke

Yes Luke

It has come together better than I could possibly have imagined. We have in our midst super sleuths!

I am going to do some more work on the handle today and have started sharpening the saw plate. The teeth were really bad and in places had to be jointed down to smooth metal.

Chippy made a good point in relation to the sound the plate makes when struck. Although this one sounds really good, the No.12 to which I compared it may have lost a little tension. I have read that even within the same model number there can big variations in sound and it does not neccessarily mean that one saw is better than another. I think a crisp and resonant tone is a good indicator.

Another revelation for me was from Ian's advertisements, which showed that, in 1917 at least, the No.8 was only a mid range saw. A mid range saw with nickel plated brass hardware (and a WS medallion) I found unusual and surprising. I would be interested to know whether this range of saws was successful.

Regards
Paul

[DSEL74]

Nice saw and a really interesting read. You guys have put in some e cel lent research.

One thing to keep in mind when trying to date from catalog images is that these images were etchings an cost money to have done so often I have found the product changed but future catalogs still retained out dated images. This is certainly the case with our local McPhersons who seemed to never update their product images.

[Bushmiller]

One thing to keep in mind when trying to date from catalog images is that these images were etchings an cost money to have done so often I have found the product changed but future catalogs still retained out dated images. This is certainly the case with our local McPhersons who seemed to never update their product images.

That is a very good point. My early working life was in publishing and it was just at the end of the letterpress era, which involved making a steel plate for every picture . It was a costly process so I can quite see where a manufacturer may chose not to update.

Unfortunately that is an aspect we can't really allow for other than acknowledging it as a possibility. Thank you for alerting us.

Something I have found with trying to date saws is that you can really only work to the catalogs and at best that just gives a range of years that a saw might be made. I find myself frequently using the phrase was first seen in **** catalogue but did not appear in ****catalogue. Catalogues, quite understandably, were not produced every year.

Using Simonds for example, because I am most familiar with that manufacturer, during their years of hand saw production they produced catalogs in 1903,1907,1910,1912,1916,1919 and 1923. I think much of that would be to do with the introduction of new models or changes in price structure. After all, if nothing has changed, why go to additional expense. In the case of Simonds (also Disston and Atkins) the catalogues were not just for handsaws, but included a huge range of associated products. We are only considering one aspect of their business


Regards
Paul

[DSEL74]

I think you can do more than just acknowledge. In so much as you say "first seen in, but did not appear in" in so much as you know that the first seen in is the earliest known date, and any older images of saws superceeded are probably due to lack of updating old plates. But yes it adds little to the quest.

[ch!ppy]

indeed, i had that in the back of my mind but didn't write it. that is, that they are etchings and costly and would be reused in many circumstances. still i found it interesting that in the tool box picture it showed both logo's . which kinda raised the question for me why change one and not the other. possibly just a simple fix to change one part and not the other i guess. so i figured (guessing) that the Logo change must be closer to 1917 than to 1912.

also the stiletto razors i have noticed that some, obviously later made models also have made in the US written on them, while others have made in Germany. both while under the ownership of Pacific Hardware afaik.

I look forward to what the chap from Pacific says about whom made the saws, assuming he knows. the mind boggles if they made them themselves when one considers the huge array of steel products they sold, i think i read somewhere it was either the catalogue pages or items numbered somewhere around 3500 different steel items. its mind boggling the amount of square footage the factories would of had to have been, say when compared to Atkins, Simonds, Disston or even across the water it makes me think to compare it to BSA, that made quite few things but their factory at one point was around 26 acres in later years but still huge in the early years and just made a few things. the bigger US saw makers buildings were quite enormous but they just made saws and associated things and usually had a seperate building/factory just for the timber to make the handles.

i find the price on the tool box intriguing as well (they also sold empty chests very much like the one made popular by swartz when selling his "A" book, his reference then was comparing to the Ben Seaton tool chest, obviously in reality he didn't need to go that far back to find such a chest, just few years and few miles from where he was (they had pretty much same design and some inlay work as well), but that doesn't sell books without the drama. now i believe he is onto dutch type chests as a revelation he has found anew and making a book about that, but again that design was quite common, even here in adelaide not that long ago) .

anyway the Stiletto tool chest pictured with some 90 tools sold with it. i love the picture/etching, the tools are just casually placed around, one can hardly imagine how the door closes or how all those tools would fit in the cabinet. then the price US$85, a pretty sum indeed in those days. using an online calculator they estimate it to be worth equal to US$1733 in todays money, which is probably not too bad when one calculates it.

if one was to buy those tools new today i would expect it to total considerably more than that if buying from LV, which i consider fairly modest lower end tools with some high quality amongst them (after doing some quick adding up i.e. a large steel roofing square from LV can cost over $110 but as little as $6 on amazon), if buying some of the tools from the various popular boutique tool choices people often refer to on the forums or the gentleman's brass and pretty wood affairs, it would be way way over, not even close to $1700, not even double that. if buying just from amazon, say. then it can be under or just over depending on choices of keeping the tools to a reasonable but not extravagant quality

but looking at official government docs on earnings, cost of living and any cash surplus or deficit families (in the US) had in 1917 at years end. that can be complicated to write here and now because they were hundreds of pages long and covered different locations (cities etc) and obviously not everyone earned the same amount. In brief, the lowest income families were in the red at the end of year by $40-50 while a small percentage was ahead by $350 at years end. but the majority of average people ranged from about $80-to over $200. so that tool chest with all the tools was aimed at picking the pockets of the larger amount of a families disposable cash at years end i would assume.


cheers
chippy

[Bushmiller]

Chippy

My reasoning for the saws being outsourced was that the humble handsaw is ironically a very carefully made bit of gear and quite complex. I don't think it would have been worthwhile for a company to set up in opposition to the existing makers. All they had to do was place a sizeable order with the likes of Disston and Disston would etch whatever they wanted.

Only Simonds entered the market fresh around 1900 to 1903 and they were set up for it as they already made circular saws, bandsaws and logging saws. It was a logical step. Remember too that by the turn of of the century Disston had bought out nearly twenty other sawmakers.

Of course I may be entirely wrong. We'll see.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I got stuck in to the saw today. I felt that with all the effort put into the research and with the level of interest I really should do my bit too. As I said the teeth required a bit of dentistry. The first pic shows teeth partly shaped leading up to the fully jointed teeth:

376705376706376707

The handle got cleaned up, but still needs a crack glued up. It has had a single coat of BLO so far. I think I will just varnish now otherwise it will be too dark:

376708

Assmbled:

376710376711

And the teeth looking better:

376709

Used up one file completely during the sharpening and started on a second file.

Regards
Paul

[ch!ppy]

Chippy

My reasoning for the saws being outsourced was that the humble handsaw is ironically a very carefully made bit of gear and quite complex. I don't think it would have been worthwhile for a company to set up in opposition to the existing makers. All they had to do was place a sizeable order with the likes of Disston and Disston would etch whatever they wanted.

Only Simonds entered the market fresh around 1900 to 1903 and they were set up for it as they already made circular saws, bandsaws and logging saws. It was a logical step. Remember too that by the turn of of the century Disston had bought out nearly twenty other sawmakers.

Of course I may be entirely wrong. We'll see.

Regards
Paul

i agree entirely and much of the work is complicated, with tempering, grinding and smithing. although i somehow doubt, even though the Stiletto has so much similarities with the disston old #12 that it came from Disston, since the Stiletto has English steel etched onto it. obviously disston had their own steel in that period and i could not imagine him etching "english steel" on his own steel, i think he would turn in his grave someone suggesting it lol.

atkins and simons i believe used english steel (simonds after a time made their own as well i believe) . and of course the old tale goes that akins began with a tiny poorly built furnace for tempering that collapsed after one use, he gradually got better and made better furnaces, got more experienced and was somewhat driven to produce the very best saws possible in his mind. using the best steel possible, also the best tooth configuration on felling saws which were used not just to get 'lumber' but to clear forests for the railways. so much so that he heard of a couple of experienced loggers far away that had adapted a saw to their own tooth pattern that worked exceptionally well. after hearing this he went and found them, employed them and patented their tooth shape. after gaining much hands on experience he later went to england to source the best steel he could, from his side of the tale he asked sheffield for the very best steel they could make but they said what he was asking for was reserved for higher end implements such as steel used in cut-throat razors and overkill for hand saws. but that is what he is said to have gotten or imported which is why he called it silver steel. not containing any actual silver of course-but i assume the shinny silver brightness of a cut-throat razor may have given him the idea of what to call it.

cheers
chippy

[Bushmiller]

Chippy

This is all conjecture of course and perhaps we will get some insight from Pacific Hardware, but I agree with you that Disston is unlikely as the manufacturer because of the English steel depicted on the etch. I think Simonds is ruled out because none of their saws had nickel plated saw screws, but Atkins used nickel plated saw screws on their No.400 and No.401 and they made a big thing of their imported English steel from Sheffield.

My understanding was that Elias Atkins was a metallurgist and went to the UK, as you said, with his own specification for steel. So much of it fits and it may have been a little quirk of marketing irony that he imitated the handles of Disston and Simonds top flight models. It is also interesting to note that his flagship saws had completely plain handles, albeit in Brazilian Rosewood. There was no conflict of interest.

Talking of the saw screws, the nickel plated types are easy to clean but the plating is thin and starts to wear showing the brass through. The pix make them look worse than they are:

376713376714

The pix make them look all brass, but they are predominantly nickel with a little brass showing through. I think the silver was picking up reflection. You can see the eagle now on the medallion.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I received an email from Joel at Pacific hardware and it turns out that he has exactly the same saw:

376769376770

He made reference to the 1917 catalogue that Ian turned up, but I believe we have gone one step further with Chippy's advertisement, which clearly shows an identical saw pre dating the 1917 catalogue.

Thanks for all the inputs and comment. I will post a final pic when the saw is finished.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Actually Joel's saw is slightly different in that it is a 6ppi rip while mine is an 8ppi crosscut, but I expect you know what I meant. Although his saw is unrestored, I did note that the handle looks very good without any damage at all.

Regards
Paul

[ch!ppy]

Joel's saw certainly doesn't look like it was put to much use, even your though marked from age is not very worn(well i guest is, considering you had to retooth it)

i was meaning to ask, did your saw have an owner scratch on it, it aways interests me for some reason. you know, like many old saws the owner carved or cut his initials into it (usually on the opposite side of the wheat carving (which was mentioned above, certainly isn't about grip imo, if it was for grip with a right handed person the wheat carving would be on the other side), many didn't have initials which is often on a saw that didn't get a lot of use and statched away somewhere (lucky for us cos we can get a good saw then). some have a X mark cut into in the top of handle, which is too show its a cross cut , i often put a sticky dot on the top with a couple of things written just so i can see without taking out of the rack or box.

i was just having glass of water looking out the window and on my wall where i have a few saws hanging about, usually ones that need something doing to them or just some cheaper ones i don't use, occasionally from one i used and was too lazy to put away yet or expected to use it again soon. they have to go somewhere so hang from fencing wire hooks i have along the wall or roof with a bunch of other 'cool junk'. anyway from the distance i noticed one of them had nickel nuts that were shinning in the light. as i thought when i went to have a closer look it was an early disston D-115. nice rosewood handle so i guess even disston nickel plated a few.

on a different note, the post card i showed you of the 1908 Stiletto No.8 saw with the older logo has me quite intrigued. first i could assume that the store didn't have them in stock if he visited in person, which raises the question of how long did it take to order such a saw?. if he wired the money or ordered by post (not sure how that would be done?) it may account for the need for post card, although i suspect given the card was placed in the post on the 20 Nov 1908 and on the front it says "you can expect me about Saturday 28th" which would have only been a week later in nov. so i assume it must have been a close destination or proxcimitry to the San Fran store. (so perhaps a notification it was ready then)

the post card never got delivered, from insufficient address details (had a red stamp on it from the post office saying so). it was addressed to a S. Morris Esq (can't make out the writing or what the first name is-any ideas?) at Chinese Camp Cal. so i wonder if he ever actually got his saw and i have tried to look up Chinese Camp and came up with a number of possibilities, which is probably why the post office had trouble as well, not to mention back in those days a location of a Chinese Camp would not of been a place a white person would have liked to go to. extreme racism in those days against the chinese in those parts. although if the name is Morris would suggest he was from the UK. Esq in later years in the US was predominately used for lawyers but in those days could of been simply a polite way to address a customer in writing, or he was a pompous pom that referred to himself as Esq, perhaps someone of standing, even an officer on ship and there were thousand of ships left abounded in the 49 gold ruch, by officer and all. then raises the question of why a white guy is living at a chinese camp, perhaps a railway boss, perhaps a homeless refugee from the San Fran earth quake (that is said to still be one of the largest in the US) the topped many buildings (not the Pacific Hardware building which still stands today) and what didn't fall over set alight from burst gas mains and they had a huge fire and many thousands left homeless for a while. the city was quickly rebuilt (and apparently chinatown was very damaged) which would have been great business for Pacific Hardware and put a lot of their tools to work including saws such as these Stiletto's.

then in a seperate issue of the Sac Times newspaper the few months prior to Nov (august) a Chinese camp (more like a town but referred to as a camp) in sacramento burnt down, so the saw could have put to use there (not too far south of San Fran). there was also another few camps nearer San Fran but one place that is still officially called Chinese Camp Cal, as it was then too. that still stands but is a ghost town now but still going in 1908, however it was quite some miles east of San Fran, i would think by the time he got the postcard the saw wouldn't be far behind. not sure if they had a railway to that destination

anyway quite few things that are puzzles which i find interesting. wouldn't be something! if you saw had S.M. carved in side :D

one thing to come out of this is the firm selling Stiletto now really need to revise their heritage as Baker and Hamilton came to the SF as one of the many people known as the 49ers but were likely deceased before the brand actually got started in Germany and it was Pacific Hardware & Steel whom acquired the brand in later years

hers a pic of the back of the postcard if anyone can make out the name. i've tried searching for the fellow (S. Morris) but haven't come up with him yet

cheers
chippy

376867

[DSEL74]

Saul?

[hiroller]

Speaking of Stilletos, who knew that Turner made shoes as well as planes???
377510
No - they are not my shoes!

[Bushmiller]

So you say. Nice heel. :wink:

BTW I have finished the Stiletto (saw). I will assemble it tomorrow and post a pic.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Pix of the finished Stiletto No.8 as promised (threatened :rolleyes: )

377637377638377639377640377641377642377643

Interesting how the reflection of light can alter the colour of the handle so dramatically. Fortunately the camera cannot lie.

Regards
Paul

[AJOE123]

Dear All
Just came across this thread and was alerted to the word Stiletto.
I have two of the No 8 saws in large and small sizes;later versions than Bushies.
I too have wondered as to the origins of these saws as they compare very well to Disston 115; but the English steel had me thinking of a source other than Disston.
Baker and Hamilton had their Stiletto chisels made in Sweden by Jernbolaget so they liked quality.(see Galootopia Swedish Chisels)
I should get off my backside and post something on the Lumberjocks Saw site and see if they know anything.
I am at work at present so no photos till later on.
Cheers
Tony

[AJOE123]

So here are some Stiletto No8 pics
We have a 26inch 5pointer and a 22inch 8pointer.
Handle quality equals Disston #112.
Cheers
Tony377700377701377702377703377704377705377707377708

[Bushmiller]

Thanks for those pix AJOE and good to hear from you. I think these Stilettos are something of an enigma. The irony is that if you look at the advertisements posted earlier in the thread you will see that the No.8 was only middle of the range and in that respect mirrored the Disston No.8.

However, in some ways I think the No.8 punched above it's weight in regard to styling in particular and would have been good value. The mystery remains as to who manufactured it. Our initial thoughts were EC Atkins, but that is only a guess.

Until I started researching this saw with the help of other Forum members I thought a stiletto was a shoe or a knife, a bit like my first two frivolous pix in the first post.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Pix of the finished Stiletto No.8 as promised (threatened :rolleyes: )

377637377638377639377640377641377642377643

Interesting how the reflection of light can alter the colour of the handle so dramatically. Fortunately the camera cannot lie.

Regards
Paul

Wow Paul,
That looks sensational I've never seen a saw with such a high plate.
Yes I know I'm showing my ignorance here O well.
It just looks huge in the pics

Matt

[Bushmiller]

Matt

The saw had lost very little of it's original depth and it was an older style full depth saw in the first place. It was strange that the teeth were so poor. I suspect it had been used for a wrong purpose. The lightweight/shipspoint/narrow saws did not find favour until around the late teens and early 1920s

Regards
Paul

[ch!ppy]

Paul,

i just happened to be looking through a simonds catalogue and noticed they sold nuts, screws and also available with eagle medallions which appear to be just the same (dare i say exact) as on your stiletto, in brass. but the nickel plating perhaps a special order or done by pacific hardware or someone else. simonds also sold the handles separately as well, in apple, with or without wheat carving or in beech, no screw holes drilled.


cheers
chippy

[Bushmiller]

Time flies as it was three years ago I researched the Stiletto brand. However a chance conversation with Michael Merlo by email brought up this subject again. He has for sale a Lakeside No.112

465614465615

Michael maintained that this saw was probably made by Geo. H. Bishop & Co. In the course of our emails I put forward the Stiletto and he commented that he believed it was also made by Bishop.

The first saw is a Bishop No.12. The second saw is The Lakeside No.112 and the third my Stiletto No.8

465616 465617 465618

Suspiciously similar? My saw replicates the Bishop even more than the Lakeside saw, which was the brand of Montgomery Ward. For some reason, when researching the Stiletto I had concentrated on the big 3 saw manufacturers. However, Bishop was not far behind. It also explains the use of nickel plated saw screws as they appear on the Bishop saw too. I had had trouble reconciling that with the other saw makers.

Regards
Paul

[andrew.n]

Really late reply. I recently found a stiletto pacific hardware and steel co saw with an Atkins. Medallion on it. The saw is a crosscut 8ppi it has a full nib and a reasonably nice etching. I can’t quite make out the number though. The handle has its horns cut off and and part of the upper part over the plate was cut. All hardware is nickel plated including the medallion. I’m not sure if it was re-handled but from the wear marks it looks original but modified for some reason.

[Picko]

When I saw the title of this old thread my sick mind went straight to one of these. Thanks for thee memories. :D

[Bushmiller]

Picko

I think water skiing played a large part for you in years gone by. Se post #11.

:)

Regards
Paul

[Picko]

:- Yes, and it has also effected my memory, :doh: or maybe that's from the beer consumed. :rolleyes:

[Bushmiller]

Really late reply. I recently found a stiletto pacific hardware and steel co saw with an Atkins. Medallion on it. The saw is a crosscut 8ppi it has a full nib and a reasonably nice etching. I can’t quite make out the number though. The handle has its horns cut off and and part of the upper part over the plate was cut. All hardware is nickel plated including the medallion. I’m not sure if it was re-handled but from the wear marks it looks original but modified for some reason.

Thanks andrew.n and welcome to the Forums.

I think you have a different model and this is because you have mentioned a "nib," which was only found on straight back saws. My No.8 was a skewback. I would be interested to see some pix, but as a first time poster you may not have that privilege yet. When you are able, please put up a pic.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

This advertisement from 1917 may be useful in identifying Stiletto saws:

535254

It is interesting to note that the No.5 model is bottom of the range and the handle is made from Beech. That style in other brands such as Disston, Simonds, Atkins & Bishop would have been at or near the top. There is quite a bit of information there including original depths of blade, weights and graduation (progressive tooth line)

Regards
Paul