Handsaw technique

[shedbound]

Ok forgive me if this is old ground here, but does anyone else find with western style panel saws it is easier to is inverted ?(as per pic)
pushing the saw away rather than pulling it towards you. I tend to rock the last part of the stroke as I do so, I find I can cut twice as quick more accurate, less fatiguing and get less whip in the saw. Not trying to open a can of worms. Feel free to call me nutty:doh:....Any input appreciated.

I would like to have a play with an old saw. As in rehash it so to speak.
Trying to keep a similar hang angle, so the bottom horn doesn't dig into the palm of my hand, and the cheek of the handle doesnt hit the timber I'm cutting if I get a bit too excited with a stroke. Almost like inverting a handle, but to do that it would change the hang I think, Just a thought... Or maybe I thinking too much:U378579(i'm right handed by the way)

[Luke Maddux]

Would it be possible to have someone photograph you in the position you're describing being in while sawing?

I'm envisioning you on the right side of the saw in the photograph, with your right knee on the slab and your right arm reaching across your body to drive the saw. Am I on track with that visual?

If so, no, I've never seen anyone do it, and it seems like you would be working against yourself to do it, but if it works it works.

[IanW]

There is a school that uses a saw vertically for ripping, and that's what the thumb-hole handle is designed to assist. I've tried it and I don't get along with that technique as well as simply sawing along with my knee on the work-piece and the saw cutting at something approaching a 45 degree angle. Admittedly, the principal reason I do it that way is that that's how my old pot did it, & I just followed suit. In this position, the weight of the saw is applying about as much down-force as needed to cut nicely, and you are slicing out the wood smoothly. Yes, your arm describes an arc, coming & going, it's an inevitable consequence of our anatomy. "Breasting" is designed to allow for this and make it easier to keep the maximum number of teeth cutting as the stroke progresses, but with a little practice, it's not that hard to keep even a straight line of teeth cutting for the whole stroke.

Cutting at 90 degrees across the end-grain is harder work, the saw has a rougher action, and you have to apply pressure to keep the teeth engaged, all of which uses more energy, and adds up to a considerable number of extra calories expended on long cut, so I have never understood the rationale behind 'vertical' cutting. It may seem like you are progressing more rapidly, because you are cutting a 'thinner' board, but I doubt you are, in reality.

However, it was done by lots of people back in the day, so it must have some perceived or real advantages that I can't fathom from my simplistic analysis. From your pic, I would say you are making hard work even harder! If you are cutting in the direction it appears to be cutting, and you are right-handed, how are you steadying the board? Having to hold the saw up against the cut and apply cutting pressure like that, is adding considerably to the effort.

Don't think I'll be attempting your style any time soon, shedbound, but whatever works for you, works. If we are ever in they same place with a couple of sharp saws, maybe you can convince me your method is quicker & easier than mine. If so, I'll try to convert.... :U

Cheers,

[rob streeper]

I think that the saw may have a dangle-angle that doesn't fit you well. I like a more upright handle relative to the toothline in a panel/hand saw, perhaps such would work better for you.

Here is an Xcut saw with the angle I prefer, pretty much with the toothline parallel to my forearm in use.

378587

Here's how the toothline relates to the grip.

378588

For ripping I prefer this.

378590378591

On the rip saw the top of the grip that bears against the web of my hand is set back slightly further than is the top of the crosscut handle tending to cause the toothline to be pushed down slightly when held in my hand.

The handle on your saw seems to be made such that the angle made by the toothline relative to the long axis of your forearm is < 180o. May be the root of your issue.

Cheers,
Rob

[A Duke]

Hi,
Most of the Portuguese carpenters I have known cut away from them selves with a two handed grip.
It has always amazed me that most saw handles suit both types of grip.
Regards

[ian]

Would it be possible to have someone photograph you in the position you're describing being in while sawing?

I'm envisioning you on the right side of the saw in the photograph, with your right knee on the slab and your right arm reaching across your body to drive the saw. Am I on track with that visual?
one person's take on ripping
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/franco-prussian_IMG_7017-1.jpg
Sawing Franco-Prussian Style - Popular Woodworking Magazine (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/sawing-franco-prussian-style)

and on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfGpJOhkBtA

[Luke Maddux]

Still looks awkward, but obviously you're not the first, shedbound.

If the shoe fits, wear it... even if it's backwards.

[Bushmiller]

I think we need to return to the first principle of hand sawing and it is that the weight of the saw does the work. If the saw is not sharp this won't happen and if you are "undercutting" or even vertical cutting this won't happen.

Not only does the weight of the saw not work for you, but you are supporting it's weight too. I go along with the comments of others that fine if it works for you. However, I suspect that if you were performing long periods of cutting you would tire very quickly.

I note that have found the horns dig into your hands. I am not really surprised about that. Perhaps that in itself is telling us something.

The old publications published by the major saw manufacturers repeatedly refer to the "hang" angle (of the saw) and I think Rob Streeper highlighted that this could be contributing to any issues you might have. It is one of the reasons the old saws are preferred and why the boutique saw makers often follow those saws of yesteryear.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Paul

[shedbound]

Thanks for your replies and interesting views, I have for some reason always reverted to this method,
I start in the traditional manner but find I tire faster, so walk around the piece grab the saw and keep going, I just find it much more ergonomic and would love to demonstrate it if and when we catch up, (which I would have liked to be able able to attend Matt's recent Ballarat do, next time maybe).
I haven't yet watched the video you posted the link to but I will.
Whether it be my physical size? you should know that, Dave TTC was looking down at me when I last spoke to him, from memory:qHi Dave.
I totally agree that its not conventional, and I don't use it (now Ian mentions it) for crosscutting. Its something I have just done never really put a lot of thought into until last night.
.378703This is roughly the manner in which I use it I should have got a clearer pic of my grip Etc, but now, looking at it from a different perspective I maybe use more of a body action in conjunction with an arm action, it looks to keeps the elbow lower, and I dont have to reach, I do know I don't feel as though I am having to lift the saw up into the timber, I will pay more attention to how I am doing it rather than just doing.
I look a little relaxed in the pic I think my left leg is usually further forward.
As for the hang angle, I have nothing to compare to, this is a spear and Jackson 6ppi sharpened rip maybe 1960's and the only sharp saw I have on hand and up to the task I needed it for.
As a carpenter I had in my kit Disston d-8's? mid 50-60's era and use them the same way. I don't know how they compare angle wise to this saw.
Again thanks for the replies.

[D.W.]

I often sit sawing, but always sawing toward me and not away. Two hands on the saw and when the saw is getting close to me, I stand up an inch or two and slide the board forward.

I do that mostly to preserve my arms so that I can work an indefinite period when dimensioning. It's probably better for our shoulders, anyway. (on short rips, I can rip faster just standing and working one-handed, but I can't rip a 7 foot 8/4 hardwood board one handed without a break - sitting it's no big deal at all).

[planemaker]

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/franco-prussian_IMG_7017-1.jpg

This demonstration by Schwarz is just for the camera's. Off camera, he would have have used a power saw to rip that board in half. That's the intelligent approach.

Tour of Chris Schwarz workshop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3LkC8JpO1g

[rob streeper]

I ripped an 10' long 2"x12" end to end once, and only once with a handsaw.

[D.W.]

I can't imagine getting any kind of back injury from hand sawing. I did almost get my fingers in a table saw early on and took a nasty bit of kickback. I still use tablesaws, but I have to admit that it's lacking in satisfaction compared to ripping by hand (which is good for your body, your brain, technique development...and I guess ultimately for planing skill).

I've never noticed Chris Schwarz to be particularly skillful with hand tools, but he's not a beginner either. I've noticed if there is any measurable amount of rough work, he often says he gave up in the middle and finished with powertools.

[D.W.]

I ripped an 10' long 2"x12" end to end once, and only once with a handsaw.

If you're talking about wet pine, I'd agree with that. Wouldn't be a big deal if it was cherry, though, or something like that.

[rob streeper]

It was a piece of Wolmanized pine, very wet.

[shedbound]

I am not familiar with his work, just the name, as it seems to get a bit of a mention on these forums.

[planemaker]

David. Why you did not choose the easier option of using the bandsaw you have in your workshop (11.14 into video) over ripping that wide board down by hand makes no sense to me at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1GHQwYoux0

[code4pay]

David. Why you did not choose the easier option of using the bandsaw you have in your workshop (11.14 into video) over ripping that wide board down by hand makes no sense to me at all. Lets hope your choice of technique would be different if not done in front of the camera.



Probably the same reason I jump on my push bike to ride to the shops when I have a perfectly good car.

[ch!ppy]

I think we need to return to the first principle of hand sawing and it is that the weight of the saw does the work". If the saw is not sharp this won't happen and if you are "undercutting" or even vertical cutting this won't happen.

Not only does the weight of the saw not work for you, but you are supporting it's weight too. I go along with the comments of others that fine if it works for you. However, I suspect that if you were performing long periods of cutting you would tire very quickly.

I note that have found the horns dig into your hands. I am not really surprised about that. Perhaps that in itself is telling us something.

The old publications published by the major saw manufacturers repeatedly refer to the "hang" angle (of the saw) and I think Rob Streeper highlighted that this could be contributing to any issues you might have. It is one of the reasons the old saws are preferred and why the boutique saw makers often follow those saws of yesteryear.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Paul


i think the common saying is "let the saw do the work", not so much (or at all) "the first principle is, the weight of the saw does the work. though that is often mentioned as a factor with back saws. but i guess thats semantics and i get roughly what your getting at. while its true that sayings like 'let the saw do the work' ,'you paid for it, so use all the whole length' and of course your right that the teeth should be sharp to let the saw actually be able to do the work. there is more to it than that. Rob mentions the hang angle, and i guess we could debate which hang angle is best for a particular purpose.

however for a saw to work well enough it really is more than just the weight of the saw, in fact in some ways the handsaw being lighter, or more pointedly well balanced is more important. but first of all, is the basic geometry of the saw (thrust angles etc) should be functional and matched. i don't mean to appear to pick on shedbound, if that is the style he likes then thats what he likes, but i hope he doesn't mind me picking on the saw. IMO it is dreadful (even if it is sharp) and i am not at all surprised that he gets fatigued using it in a conventional manner, the handle is way high on the blade, the hang doesn't suit it, not taper ground, don't know what angle the teeth are at, typical i guess but that doesn't cure it.

some of my first saws were sanvicks just like those and some later models (wasn't a lot of other new choices in shops at that time), they were god awful to use, some of the later ones improved slightly (70's 80's i think) but after i had had learnt more i found i had to do a lot of work to them to make the better, breast them and change the teeth to get them to work half well (and that was on higher quality top of range sanvicks that the handle was placed better than shedbound's example). then I found older saws worked better but even when sanvicks (and other makers) started making hardened tooth saws that while not tapered, crappy steel, they were compact panel size with very steep hang angle, even those worked better. even though they were aggressive hang and one has to compensate somewhat with sawing action, they were quick, fairly comfy if not a little rough finish. but for first fix or docking, not joinery (though you can still cut to exact line) the steep hang angle is great. the handle set very low in the blade.

the pic of CS and the vid of him sawing is kinda amusing isn't it? at least it was to me! it looked like he was trying to convince himself it was a good style and not even close at succeeding. the vid, which must of been edited, and one would assume to show the good bits and cut out the worst out. well he hardly managed to make a decent stroke, certainly didn't use the whole blade even though it was only a short saw (you can see the sawdust on the few teeth that did get used). so we know that some people, mainly europeans sometimes use this method, why i don't know, but each to their own. sometimes i wonder if because it kinda imitates how people used to rip with pit saws (up and down) or with some frame saw technics.

even with the thumb hole two handed grips (pre-war D-8's etc) i use the the the conventional way, it simply spreads the work to both arms instead of one when doing a lot of work or if your arm isn't used to it ,it helps fatigue. i be interested to see any vids of anyone actually using a a 26 (easy) or 28" + rip saw saw correctly (i haven't as yet), I've been shown some DVD's by some what i assume are experienced prominent people (in the US)and much content was good but even their rip demonstrations seem to be lacking. often it usually comes down to the size of the saw to suit the size of the person, then they typically use a saw horse which is too short, or they use a saw horse that is fairly typical in size, sometimes even suited to the size of the person height. (say to the knees, which is usually advised and comfy) but then if the height is around say 20-22" it doesn't leave them much room to use the whole saw without the risk of hitting the ground, so they alter their saw action to compensate which leads to restricting a good full smooth saw action, then more fatigue etc.

still, even though it might come across as picky, i have no problem with someone using a saw in a manner that works for them. even though i use them in the conventional way (which i believe they where designed for) at times i use them backwards, sideways and upside-down , whatever is necessary :)

cheers
chippy

[ch!ppy]

I ripped an 10' long 2"x12" end to end once, and only once with a handsaw.


i can't resist asking :); did you rip the 2" inch or 12" thickness?

cheers
chippy