Don't over look the motor controls. Vintage Switch Gear

[jgforsberg]

Often the machine switches are only given a cursory thought when we rehab our machines. In the vintage world of motors and controls very little is on the net. I will be starting this thread here on motor controls in the industrial world past and present. Hoping to start a thread on Vintage controls and how to use them today . I have a number of them from around the world. If you think that the knowledge on vintage machines is thin it is almost nonexistent in motor controls . Hope there is an interest as this is one of the few avenues this Hobby can takes us. My focus with be on design but there are many aspects to cover.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSYDjzEwL1g



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[Vann]

Hope there is an interest as this is one of the few avenues this Hobby can takes us.I'm interested. I've acquired a 1940s MEM isolating switch to retrofit to my 1945 Wadkin PK (the original Brookhurst contactor is still functioning), and I'm currently (no pun intended) refurbing the 1970s MEM isolating switch and Crabtree contactor on my Preston bandsaw. When I say refurbing - I've de-rusted and repainted both boxes, and cleaned everything I can - but I'd love to know what to do with the contacts.

I'd also be interested in ideas for remote "Stop" buttons in the circuits.

But I think you may be more into designing replacement electrical systems to replace munted control gear?

Cheers, Vann.

[jgforsberg]

post up what you got Vann. Contacts can be "silvered" so it not a good idea to file them. I have very early Brook PK switch gear that i can show

[Vann]

Contacts can be "silvered" so it not a good idea to file them.A neighbour is a retired electrian. When I asked him about the contacts, he said not to file them. He said both sides of each contact end up taking the same shape ('spooning") so if you take to them with anything that alters that shape, you risk making problems. However I think he may be from the "if it ain broke, don't fix it" school of thought. Somewhere else I read to clean the contacts and sand them flat.

I haven't touched them yet.

Cheers, Vann.

[swk]

... but I'd love to know what to do with the contacts...


Depending on the cost you are prepared to spend, the contacts can be remade. This mob do it in Australia
Repair, Refurbishing & Manufacture of Electrical Contacts | SBA Amalgamated (http://www.sbagroup.com.au/amal/sba-products/repair-refurbishing-of-electrical-contacts/)
If the MEM switch is common they might even have some remanufactered parts ready to go.

There is probably someone in New Zealand does a similar thing

Regards
SWK

[Vann]

Depending on the cost you are prepared to spend, the contacts can be remade.Thanks SWK. But that'll have to wait until I stuff them up first (or find some that are burnt out).

I have also heard that a fibreglass rubber (eraser) can be used to clean the contacts without damaging them (drat - I used to have one of those in the 1980s when I worked as a draughtman - it got ditched when we changed to CAD :~)

Cheers, Vann.

[jgforsberg]

Van I have about three or four of those identical . What you have there is not really motor control those are isolation / disconnect switches some of them with fuses . These are used in Advavce of the line load prior to motor control switches . Do you have motor control switches ?

[BobL]

I do like it that you guys are bothering with this and some looks in excellent condition but I do wonder about the safety of some old switch gear.

It's none of my business what you do in your own shed and you blokes sound like you know what you are doing, but it's beyond most newbies to know what is safe and what isn't.
Perhaps when you find it, some indication of what is not safe and what is not could be pointed out.
The ∆/Y switch of a 1926 thicknesser full of brittle crumbling cloth covered wire we received at the mens shed springs to mind.
At the mens shed we have 2 highly qualified sparkies and one is an elderly industrial sparky who has a good knowledge of old machinery but we still have a policy of replacing all old switch gear with new stuff.


And Yes, I'm very aware that the white fluffy stuff is almost certainly asbestos. I've carefully package up the larger bits and vacuumed up any remaining particals.

Unless your vacuum cleaner has a real HEPA filter, asbestos dust is so fine it will pass straight through most vacuum cleaner filters and will now have contaminated where ever it was you did the vacuuming.
Also now the vacuum cleaner is contaminated and will continue to emit these particles into whatever area it is used for the rest of its life time - even in a HEPA filtered unit the dust will be trapped and minced into finer dust and then emitted from the motor cooling loop etc. This is why vacuum cleaners like DC should be located or vented outside a shed.

At the very least, before further use of that VC I would empty the VC, dispose of any bag/filter, and clean the Vacuum cleaner (all done outside wearing a P3 face mask).
Perhaps a better way to deal with this is to use an old vacuum cleaner and then dispose of the whole vacuum cleaner.

[jgforsberg]

Bob I use the old gear with VFDs . 10vts and milliamp controls . Most of the old gear is still perfectly fine certainly the disconnects which are just knife switches . Some of the very very old would need wiring replaced something you wouldn't want to have to pay your sparky to do .

[Vann]

What you have there is not really motor control those are isolation / disconnect switches some of them with fuses . These are used in Advavce of the line load prior to motor control switches . Do you have motor control switches ?Yebut, without turning on the isolating switch, you don't have power to run your control gear :U.

I don't know what the rules are in Aus, nor Canada, but over here you must have an isolating switch on or next to the machine, if it's permanently wired. My machines now have cords with plugs, and as such the isolating switches are remnants of their past. Maybe one day they'll be permanently wired again.

The next few posts were going to be the control gear (and still will be). I thought long and hard before posting about the isolating switches here - I've now moved them to my "MEM Switch" thread.

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

Unless your vacuum cleaner has a real HEPA filter, asbestos dust is so fine it will pass straight through most vacuum cleaner filters and will now have contaminated where ever it was you did the vacuuming.I am aware of the dangers of asbestos. I did my apprenticeship in an environment that had been exposed to asbestos contamination for over 40 years (railway workshops) and I've worked with asbestos myself. I've been tested for asbestosis on two occasions (so far nothing).

The vacuuming was done with a vacuum system that exhausts outside of the house - still not ideal, but the amounts vacuumed were almost insignificant as most was collected and bagged, and most of the remainder wetted and washed away. The vacuuming was mostly to capture any disturbed particles in the air.


At the mens shed we have 2 highly qualified sparkies and one is an elderly industrial sparky who has a good knowledge of old machinery but we still have a policy of replacing all old switch gear with new stuff. Like the machines themselves, most old electrical gear was very robustly made, and unlike things made in this throw away world (of limited resources), made to be serviced and/or repaired.

To me, old switchgear is part of the picture. An old steam engine pulling the Australind, just wouldn't look quite right historically. Old machines, with modern switchgear, isn't where I want to go. Menz sheds have different aims.

Cheers, Vann.

[jgforsberg]

Yebut, without turning on the isolating switch, you don't have power to run your control gear :U.

I don't know what the rules are in Aus, nor Canada, but over here you must have an isolating switch on or next to the machine, if it's permanently wired. My machines now have cords with plugs, and as such the isolating switches are remnants of their past. Maybe one day they'll be permanently wired again.

The next few posts were going to be the control gear (and still will be). I thought long and hard before posting about the isolating switches here - I've now moved them to my "MEM Switch" thread.

Cheers, Vann.
No they're appropriate for switchgear but there really considered in Canada building wiring . As you've noted a cord and plug become your physical disconnect . Those are generally copper bars and you can just clean those with scotch brighter sandpaper . I wouldn't worry too much about the broken piece of insulator that's not serious . The contacts I was talking about cleaning are more like points and actually get silver plating that you have to be careful cleaning . if someone's cleaned them too much you'll see the copper under the plating and it's time to replace . This is not because they won't work it's because the silver reduces the arcing compound left each time the machinist switched and allows the contacts to work over A longer period of time between maintenance

[Vann]

post up what you got Vann.Okay. So the Preston saw came with a Crabtree contactor,

379107 Assuming this was installed at the same time as the isolating switch (a reasonable assumption, I feel) this would date from late 1960s to late 1980s.

the Wadkin RTA lathe with it's original 1951 MEM contactor;

379105

and the Wadkin PK saw with it's original 1945 Brookhurst contactor.

379106


I've also obtained a second Crabtree contactor,

379108

and a Startex err... non-contactor.

379109

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

The Crabtree contactor appears to be a model B15

379110

The pressed steel box had rust and other signs of age, so I wanted to smarten it up. The two pushbuttons were so 'weathered' it wasn't obvious which was "Off" and which was "On" (and for safety reasons I wanted to be able to find the "Off" in a hurry). I decided to refurbish the box of the second Crabtree contactor, and use parts from both (the second was missing a pushbutton).

I bought test pots of red and green paint, and painted the pushbuttons, then applied a clear coat. I don't know how that will last.

It's gone from this... to this.

379114 379113 Yeah, I didn't quite get the colour right - but the difference isn't half as much as it seems in the photos.

379112 379111

The plaque on the side says:
O/L RATING: 5 - 10 A
COIL VOLTS: 380/420
FREQUENCY: 50

Here are the two contactors, side by side.

379145 The LH unit is the spare, and in much worse condition. It's only rated 1-2 Amps.

379146 A closer view of the 'spare' with the L2-B1 contacts exposed.

379147 The 'good' unit showing that the contactor overload is set at 8.5 Amps.

I wonder how the correct overload setting is determined? Set it low and see if it trips?

Cheers, Vann.

[jgforsberg]

Vann i have the same mag switch as the PK and i can go through it this week end. I also have the lathe switch. What is the voltage in your shop and do you have 3 phase or single phase power.

Here are a few videos i did on basic for those following along. Its main is VFDs but it may be helpful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bszrQirBnwI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtOOdIIhTIw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plZ-dwoJkEE

[Vann]

What is the voltage in your shop and do you have 3 phase or single phase power.

Here are a few videos i did on basic for those following along. Its main is VFDs but it may be helpful.Dagnabbit, I'm at work again and can't see the videos until I get home tonight.

I have one lonely 3phase outlet in my garage (the legacy of the PO who ran a small business out of the garage), hence the need to put plugs on my machines. It's nominally 400v. And there's 230v single phase as well of course, for normal appliances. All 50 Hz.

Cheers, Vann.

[Vann]

Here are a few videos i did on basic for those following along. Its main is VFDs but it may be helpful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtOOdIIhTIwHi Jack. Thanks for the videos.

At present I have no intention of adding a VFD to any of my machines (I believe they're still horribly expensive over here). But I've been mulling over this video (the "2-wire control" video) as that's probably what I would need for a remote switch using ye olde electro-mechanical contactors.

I note that you wired your remote switches in parallel. Can I suggest it would be safer to wire them in series - that way any switch activated in an emergency would switch off the power, rather than having to find the one you used to switch it on.

I can imagine SWMBO answering yells to find me entangled in a machine (actually I prefer not to imagine that) and having to try all the switches before finding the right one :C.

And not that I can imagine it in a small workshop, but consider an apprentice having a joke by switching on the other switch while you're using the machine. Then when you switch it off, it keeps running because it's still receiving a "run" command from the second switch. Dangerous I know, but I remember when I was an apprentice in the early 1970s - we (the other apprentices and I) used to get up to some dumb pranks :no::B.

Cheers, Vann.

[camoz]

Here's a nice stop switch that was on Gumtree (brought up by amrjon).

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/948D189D-14E5-48A0-B186-C9F740F7968B_zpstavw5x2f.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/948D189D-14E5-48A0-B186-C9F740F7968B_zpstavw5x2f.jpg.html)

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/586CA101-BD77-41AB-B793-B7F1ED42840B_zpsyulypbyv.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/586CA101-BD77-41AB-B793-B7F1ED42840B_zpsyulypbyv.jpg.html)

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/043007E1-930D-4FA5-BA2A-0F367F7EF23E_zpsgtylzjke.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/043007E1-930D-4FA5-BA2A-0F367F7EF23E_zpsgtylzjke.jpg.html)

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/E83A1D12-810B-4926-AD1D-06C77EC4EB73_zps6hdnxq7x.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/E83A1D12-810B-4926-AD1D-06C77EC4EB73_zps6hdnxq7x.jpg.html)

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/85A3B764-88F7-4623-91D8-0C4F7216CC98_zps6enmn35y.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/85A3B764-88F7-4623-91D8-0C4F7216CC98_zps6enmn35y.jpg.html)

The can gives an idea of scale, it's a nice substantial stop switch, cast aluminium body and turned brass mushroom button. Opening it up, I was happy to find some nice original switch gear, in what looks to be perfect condition. It has a nice lockout feature (where it can be pushed in, and twisted to lock down, a brass screw allows it to be locked in place).

It came with some labels etc from a Wadkin EKA tenoner, so I am guessing it was a stop switch mounted on the sliding table (assuming it was also from the EKA

Cheers,

Camo