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Mobyturns
14th June 2016, 08:45 PM
Well, we don’t have a category for butt kicking.

Managing hazards and risk from the side effects of a cardiac condition and associated medications, plus an obstinate case of recurring vertigo finally caught up with me this morning before work.

Feeling good and confident that I was “fit” to use machinery I decided to true up about twenty 12” long linear lamination blanks on the jointer. I was using push sticks etc, and I had set up my work area to minimize rotation of my body / head to prevent a possible initiation of a vertigo episode. Pick up on right, through jointer, stack completed pieces on left side – straight workflow line.

I’m not completely sure what led to me having a minor altercation with my 6” jointer, however I managed have a wobble. I placed my hand on the operational guard forcing it slightly open then feeding two fingers between the guard and fence. Fortunately my reactions were quick enough to minimize a more serious injury, but not fast enough!

The result - I managed to inflict a bit more than superficial injuries to the top of my index and next finger on my left hand, an open wound to both fingers, no bone damage and only minor damage to the corner of the index fingernail. A lot of blood on my favourite holey work shirt (blood thinning meds) then a bit of first aid, off for a visit to our family doctor for some fancy needle work so now it is on the mend. The doctor decided to remove the index finger nail to affect a satisfactory repair, so it looks more dramatic than it really is.

Painful, both to the fingers and hip pocket nerve, however more embarrassing than anything given my advocacy for hazard and risk management for wood workers.

Only a matter of ten minutes or so before I was helping our near 8 yo grand daughter with a small project but she was on her way to school when this happened so did not witness the blood.

Its now time to review and reflect on my risk tolerance and what level of risk I am prepared to accept so that I can continue to enjoy my hobby.

Time for my medicine …….

Pagie
14th June 2016, 08:56 PM
Glad you are not hurt too much. It only takes an instant to do, but will take a few weeks to stop hurting. I work in operating theatres so I see a lot of injuries. It is usually the safe job the gets you. Get well soon.

dai sensei
14th June 2016, 08:56 PM
Oh crap :o

Hope it all mends up ok

Mobyturns
14th June 2016, 09:03 PM
Glad you are not hurt too much. It only takes an instant to do, but will take a few weeks to stop hurting. I work in operating theatres so I see a lot of injuries. It is usually the safe job the gets you. Get well soon.

Yep, fingers throb like a bar steward and are way more painful than the cut warrants. Our GP had a 5th year med student on placement so a good training exercise and a chance to show off. :rolleyes: The nerve ring block is not fun either.

smiife
14th June 2016, 09:04 PM
Hi Moby,
Don, t be hard on yourself , we all have a lapse of concentration
now and again , i did a similar thing awhile back and lost the top
of my finger to a parting tool and toolrest , ( never put your fingers past
toolrest , ! ) rule no. 1 i think , still have no feelings in the end of it.
Just count yourself lucky thats all you did , and will be O.K.
All the best and stay safe........or safer ! :o

Sawdust Maker
14th June 2016, 09:11 PM
ouch

lucky you didn't do more damage

I'd suggest you get a big book or two and read them cover to cover. War and Peace or some such

Pat
14th June 2016, 09:34 PM
Ouch!

Mobyturns
14th June 2016, 09:42 PM
ouch

lucky you didn't do more damage

I'd suggest you get a big book or two and read them cover to cover. War and Peace or some such

Nah! already been back out to see if there was any blood on the jointers surfaces, rusts quickly so I have been told.

justonething
14th June 2016, 10:27 PM
Very glad to know you can still count to 10.
Take care.

Nubsnstubs
15th June 2016, 12:19 AM
Very glad to know you can still count to 10.
Take care.


Ouch!!! I think that quote should hurt more than the injury........ hehhe

Moby, you're right about the pain. And even when it's all healed two to six months from now, you are going to really realize how many times a day you bump your fingers. I hate it when I hear about someone being injured. ........... Jerry (in Tucson)

ian
15th June 2016, 01:58 AM
Hi Moby

certainly puts a new perspective on your tag line.

all the best for a speedy recovery. The missing finger nail will probably take the longest.

perhaps it's time to install a Euro style full length guard on the jointer

Mobyturns
15th June 2016, 07:16 AM
Hi Moby

certainly puts a new perspective on your tag line.

all the best for a speedy recovery. The missing finger nail will probably take the longest.

perhaps it's time to install a Euro style full length guard on the jointer

Yeah the tag line, I learned that early on in life when I stood helplessly as a 7 yo watching a local school teacher bleed out after his Honda scooter and a Cortina had a side swipe! Nobody could have saved him in those days. That and after several amputations of digits, hands etc among extended family, friends, neighbours etc I always vowed I would never join them - came too close for comfort yesterday! Doesn't stop me enjoying life though, just like to put the odds in my favour as much as possible.

Good idea! The Carbatec 6" jointer that I have has the traditional pork chop style guard, which opened up when I placed my hand on it to stabilize myself. As soon as my hand contacted the guard my thoughts were - you idiot! The fingers went into full retract mode - but not fast enough!

Glenn.Visca
15th June 2016, 09:08 AM
Ouch ouch ouch !!! Good luck with recovery !

Fuzzie
15th June 2016, 09:24 AM
These threads always give me sphincter contractions. Glad to hear it wasn't worse. Get well soon!

Kidbee
15th June 2016, 01:20 PM
Wishing you a speedy recovery.

Vann
15th June 2016, 02:11 PM
Oww! Wishing you a complete recovery - or at least no ongoing discomfort. And probably as important, I hope you get the vertigo (that put you in that position in the first place) under control.

When I did my apprenticeship, many a year ago, one of my fellow apprentices lost (from memory) the tip of one finger, and half the width of another (down to the first joint) when he put his hand into a 4-sider - before the heads had stopped spinning. As a result, the rest of us boys didn't get trained on the 4-sider.

Being young, he recovered just fine, but retained the scars.

Cheers, Vann.

turnerted
15th June 2016, 05:07 PM
That was a scary read . I hope you recover soon and didn't get too much blood on the wood.
Ted

Tahlee
15th June 2016, 10:04 PM
Hi Mobyturns

I can empathise with you entirely ... some nights as I am nodding off I get flashbacks on the day my bandsaw caught my shirt cuff, or how the slip of a finger took the edge of my nail on the router .. and the table saw kicked back a piece so violently that it punctured a 12mm ply wall board.

On EVERY occasion I was doing something wrong .. long sleeves, no push stick, cutting too thin... and yes I have had lucky escapes ... by the seat of my pants.

I take your unfortunate ""accident"" to be a reminder that you can be doing all things correct .. and yet come to harm.

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

Perhaps its time that swastop invented a jointer!!

Regards

Rob

Mobyturns
15th June 2016, 10:48 PM
Thank you for the well wishes, very much appreciated.

I guess all of life is about managing risk, wheter we do it consciously or not. Anything can get you at any time, just some hazards / threats are far more credible and probable risks than others. Even when you have all your ducks in a row it doesn't necessarily mean all will end well.

I have chosen to persue my hobby knowing that I face hazards and much higher risk factors due to my medical condition/s. I do it in a well managed environment and with the advice and guidance of medical professionals who do not necessarily agree that my choices fit general recommendations. One of those medical professionals rides a bicycle on public roads as I also do. He has experienced injury while doing so, and so far I have avoided injury while riding.

My opinion is that I face a much lower risk profile in my managed workshop environment than he & I both face in a quasi managed road environment. He agrees!

By managing my environment, and my medical conditions I reduce the severity of potential outcomes while still enjoying my hobby. This was a good wake up call to critically reassess what I choose to do, my management both worked and failed in some respects. Bit paradoxical as all hazard management is – zero harm really means doing zero.

Mobyturns
15th June 2016, 10:49 PM
Perhaps its time that swastop invented a jointer!!

Regards

Rob

Interesting thought!

Willy Nelson
15th June 2016, 11:01 PM
Crikeys!!!!!!!!!
I flinched as well as I was reading this.
Thank God no one has said ' No photos, didn't happen'. I am quite grateful that you decided not to add pictures.
Hope all gets better soon.

Sincerely
Willy
Jarrahland

Mobyturns
15th June 2016, 11:11 PM
Crikeys!!!!!!!!!
I flinched as well as I was reading this.
Thank God no one has said ' No photos, didn't happen'. I am quite grateful that you decided not to add pictures.
Hope all gets better soon.

Sincerely
Willy
Jarrahland

It sounds worse than it really is. I've seen nastier wounds from hand tools. Many years ago a good mate decided a box cutter knife was the best tool for trimming / shaving 3mm ply being used as temporary cladding. He slipped and with the force required to make the cut he took the tips of a couple of fingers. We can compare scars now. :rolleyes:

A Duke
16th June 2016, 12:47 PM
Hi,
"zero harm really means doing zero." And have a long lingering death dyeing of boredom.
Enjoy what you do with in your limits.
Speedy recovery.
Regards

Mobyturns
16th June 2016, 04:24 PM
I have reconstructed what I believe happened, hard to be 100% sure because it happened so fast, is that my left hand was already orientated to support the side of the custom "push stick" (not pretty - but effective) that I use. Left hand was basically palm outwards, fingers down. It appears that as I have stumbled I have extended my left arm forward to get support from the back fence but in doing so my fingers have opperated the pork chop guard in a relatively normal fashion as entering timber would. I definitely remember trying to curl my fingers up as they hit the guard, but couldn't because of my body weight forcing my fingers against the fence.

I also remember seeing a creas line on my palm about parallel to my left thumb while looking at the fingers to see how much damage I had done and where the damage was. The crease line could not have come from the "push stick", I think it was from the inwards top corner / edge of the jointer fence.

Non gory photos,

The patented push stick and one of the blanks I was squaring up,

383054

a mirror with my good hand of where my left hand ended up - note the fence height matches my thumb to finger tip length. I will be adding a capping block of about 35mm just in case for future.

383053

The damage.

383052

Just come back from my GP - all is looking good, plenty of feeling and good blood flow, just no career as a hand model in my future.

StevoWoodi
16th June 2016, 08:18 PM
Thanks so much for sharing this with the forum as many of us would not want to advertise our lapse and consequently not prompt so many woodworkers to reevaluate our risk assessments.

Good on you!

Steve

Big A
16th June 2016, 08:49 PM
I agree with Steve - post #25. Thanks for sharing this with us. Other people in your position could be reluctant to post a mea culpa, but as always, you are trying to teach us about safety. Also thanks for the teaching, and for not preaching. (I was going to comment on safety nazis, but that is better left unsaid. Suffice to say that I do not regard you in that category.)

Cheers,
Alister.

John.G
16th June 2016, 10:37 PM
Glad to hear you get to keep them mate, its a could have happened to any of us tale that we all can learn something from.

I dont know that a euro style guard would allow you to retain enough control given the short length of a lot of your workpieces. I'm wondering if we could run a track along the top of the fence to carry the push stick so you could work it from the off side of the machine. I can see how to do it in my head, I'll draw something up. That way if you have another turn and go down you'll fall away from the bitey part instead of on top of it.

Mobyturns
17th June 2016, 08:42 AM
Glad to hear you get to keep them mate, its a could have happened to any of us tale that we all can learn something from.

I dont know that a euro style guard would allow you to retain enough control given the short length of a lot of your workpieces. I'm wondering if we could run a track along the top of the fence to carry the push stick so you could work it from the off side of the machine. I can see how to do it in my head, I'll draw something up. That way if you have another turn and go down you'll fall away from the bitey part instead of on top of it.

John, note that I didn't get any blood on that beautiful Silver Ash :D

I was in between jointer operations when this occurred, I was actually turning to pick up the next piece after I had restacked the completed items on an outfeed side bench (actually the top of the thicknesser). As far as I can work out in reacting to stumbling I simply placed my hand in the wrong place and it has slid along the fence enough to open the pork chop guard. I think the damage to the second finger is from how I reacted to pulling my hand away from the cutter - because the second finger is longer than my index finger.

The jointer was set for only taking off a minimal cut perhaps 0.1 - 0.2mm each pass to remove excess glue / veneer for squaring the edges for the next operation of ripping on the table saw. Could also be a different tale if I was taking a 1.5 - 2mm cut as I was last weekend while tidying up some rough sawn QLD Maple bits.

I agree the Euro style guard has problems and the pork chop style guard doesn't prevent access to the cutter head from the front, only from the top and out feed side.

I appreciate you input as any ideas we share will help make tasks on the jointer safer. Any device to place the opperator on the outfeed side would certainly help me out with the work I do.

My vertigo seemed under control, I chose to make hay while the sun shines so I rolled the dice .... I lost!

Mobyturns
17th June 2016, 08:57 AM
I agree with Steve - post #25. Thanks for sharing this with us. Other people in your position could be reluctant to post a mea culpa, but as always, you are trying to teach us about safety. Also thanks for the teaching, and for not preaching. (I was going to comment on safety nazis, but that is better left unsaid. Suffice to say that I do not regard you in that category.)

Cheers,
Alister.

Yes I have certainly been called a safety nazi & worse. Unfortunately emotion gets in the way when we try to critically examine contributing factors to an injury. People get deffensive.

I'm certainly not infallible I just like to put my boy scout training to good use - be prepared. After all my spruking over the years I felt it would be cowardice to not fess up, some one would notice the scar eventually.

This event certainly had me checking my undies, big wake up call about managing my medical conditions.

BobL
17th June 2016, 10:00 AM
Looking at your photos it looks like the main cause is the type of push block used?

The normal way I would tackle a piece of small short stock is using a pair of 300 mm long push sticks.
One stick pushes on the top LH corner of the piece and the other pushes on the back corner.
It takes a bit of practice but after a while it becomes relatively easy.

I also have very effective style of push block for small short stock that looks like about a #5-6 hand plane.
Is made of orange plastic and has a black foam rubber lining to grip the wood and two handles like a handplade - I think it was a Timbecon product although I don't see it on their website now.
With the fingers of both hands firmly wrapped around the handles the chances of fingers making contact with planer blades is very much reduced.

I also have a one handed version but I prefer the two handed version - this is on the timbecon website

383147

Carbatech also have a safety kit on special for $18 that might also help
383152
Most folks worry too much about how effective these sorts of push blocks will be at pushing up against the fence which is why fingers end up on the sides.
Relatively little side pressure is needed to maintain the workpiece up against a fence and enough sideways pressure can usually be obtained even from on top by applying a bit of sideways pressure.

For longer thicker stock it is possible to use your hands but to never place your hands into an imaginary area 100 mm in front of - and behind the line of the cutters. Unfortunately this hand-over-hand method takes a fair bit of practice but once you get the hang it is probably the safest method.

John.G
17th June 2016, 10:34 AM
John, note that I didn't get any blood on that beautiful Silver Ash :D

I was in between jointer operations when this occurred, I was actually turning to pick up the next piece after I had restacked the completed items on an outfeed side bench (actually the top of the thicknesser). As far as I can work out in reacting to stumbling I simply placed my hand in the wrong place and it has slid along the fence enough to open the pork chop guard. I think the damage to the second finger is from how I reacted to pulling my hand away from the cutter - because the second finger is longer than my index finger.

The jointer was set for only taking off a minimal cut perhaps 0.1 - 0.2mm each pass to remove excess glue / veneer for squaring the edges for the next operation of ripping on the table saw. Could also be a different tale if I was taking a 1.5 - 2mm cut as I was last weekend while tidying up some rough sawn QLD Maple bits.

I agree the Euro style guard has problems and the pork chop style guard doesn't prevent access to the cutter head from the front, only from the top and out feed side.

I appreciate you input as any ideas we share will help make tasks on the jointer safer. Any device to place the opperator on the outfeed side would certainly help me out with the work I do.

My vertigo seemed under control, I chose to make hay while the sun shines so I rolled the dice .... I lost!


Yah, don't worry. I looked at the timber and wondered how you hadn't bled all over it.

I nutted out a track and carriage system running on v groove bearings that should work. Then I figured in fabrication costs - couple of hundred dollars in materials but a lot of finetuning installation time etc etc - inconvenience etc etc and thought on that for about 10 seconds and went looking. Mate, its a jointer, and in my handbook jointers are right up there with spindle moulders on the list of things in a workshop likely to take a lump out of you: particularly the way you use them with short, hard to get hold of workpieces. Longer pieces are different, theres room for hands well away from the cutterhead as we all know.

So anyway after my ten second pause for thought (and you know me, thats a lot more strain then my brain is used to) I decided that what you really need is a "safety device" specifically designed to handle fidgety little work pieces in a safe and efficient manner.

Like this one: 3 Axis CNC Router Engraver Engraving 3040T Carving Milling Cutting High Level | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-AXIS-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-3040T-CARVING-MILLING-CUTTING-HIGH-LEVEL-/331878695719)

I'd have recommended the YAS Torque work center or similar but you dont need much more then that 300 x 600 table anyway, bigger pieces can still go over the jointer, and $800 is a reasonable trade for a couple of fingers and can be got past the finance committee as a "safety enhancement that lets me continue to do what I love and saves everyone the worry I might fall over and chop fingers off. If I stop woodworking I'll be underfoot in the house and drive everyone crazy" (Never forget the vague threat of being stuck in the house like a bear in a cage at the finish)

(easy to see I got the lingo down pat huh? I just bought 5 truck loads of gear off Peninsula Timbers in Cairns (they closed up shop) as a "productivity enhancement and we don't want xyz​ to have that capacity"... Never use the words "more and bigger toys" ... :D:D:D)

If you want to see a big three axis router in action I got to deliver into a guy out past your way next week... runs a two apprentice shop doing mostly kitchens with a tablesaw, docking saw, and about $150 k worth of CNC machine that does everything else... if you want to have a look you can jump in and bounce around in the old Acco for a couple hours.

woodPixel
17th June 2016, 02:29 PM
Visions of Steven King, a deli machine and a rotational spray of blood to the roof.

You were a very lucky chap. My mind reels at the prospects.

Ive the same jointer as you. It's a great little machine. My only thoughts of upgrade was to carbide knives or a nifty after market spiral head.

Its a tool that has always made me worry. The table saw used to, but much use has made me aware of the dangers and a near automatic avoidance of danger is now muscle-memory.... But the jointers use and the difficult nature of using the pork-chop means it's never a fluid confidence inspiring process.

One thing that's useful is I use the Grrrippers for both hands. It keeps my hands well away. I made a heel that sits on the back of one to help force the wood over the surface (it seems to stick occasionally).

Im glad you are safe.

ian
17th June 2016, 03:32 PM
I agree the Euro style guard has problems and the pork chop style guard doesn't prevent access to the cutter head from the front, only from the top and out feed side.
at the risk of offending you I'm going to go hard in favour of Euro style guards. Replacing your "pork chop" guard with a Euro style guard would make your jointer much less dangerous.

If you are face jointing, a Euro style guard should completely cover the cutter head and be just high enough above the table that the board can pass underneath. Used this way, your hand can can not contact the cutter head unless you put it under the guard. On higher level machines, like Martin, the guard rises to allow a board to pass underneath and drops behind the board.

if you're edge jointing, the Euro style guard would be located just above the cutter head with the gap between the guard and the fence being just wide enough to allow the board to pass. Again on higher level machines, the guard moves to allow the board to pass and closes behind the board.

have a look at the first minute or so of the video at this link Experience perfection with MARTIN: T54 (http://www.martin.info/cms/_main/planing/t54.html)
You would have to be very unfortunate to fall onto a Martin guard and contact the cutter head.

BTW
I like your push stick. Depending on how short your stock is, you might extend the push stick completely cover the piece you're working on.

Mobyturns
18th June 2016, 09:20 AM
Looking at your photos it looks like the main cause is the type of push block used?



Bob, When I am passing items over the cutter head I use techniques similar to what you describe.

However, I was not actually performing a task on the jointer / surface planer when this occurred. My fingers were not on the side of a work piece.

I was rotating my body back to the infeed side to pick up the next item and the push stick, when I lost my balance. Because I had restacked the items on the outfeed side I did not have anything in either hand. I'm pretty confident that my variety of disposable push sticks are suitable for the tasks and I'm not in the habit of passing my fingers over the cutter head. Your suggestions & input are greatly appreciated though.

This one I have to put in the subjective hazard category - I was competent in my assessment of my medical conditions and suitability to opperate the machine on that day.

Mobyturns
18th June 2016, 09:28 AM
"safety enhancement that lets me continue to do what I love and saves everyone the worry I might fall over and chop fingers off. If I stop woodworking I'll be underfoot in the house and drive everyone crazy"

I just bought 5 truck loads of gear off Peninsula Timbers in Cairns (they closed up shop)

A man after my own heart, I suggested that perhaps I should give it away - and got the stare! From that I inferred that I was not to be "underfoot in the house and drive everyone crazy."

Another one gone! Mr Richardson has a lot to answer for!

Mobyturns
18th June 2016, 09:55 AM
at the risk of offending you I'm going to go hard in favour of Euro style guards. Replacing your "pork chop" guard with a Euro style guard would make your jointer much less dangerous.

If you are face jointing, a Euro style guard should completely cover the cutter head and be just high enough above the table that the board can pass underneath. Used this way, your hand can can not contact the cutter head unless you put it under the guard. On higher level machines, like Martin, the guard rises to allow a board to pass underneath and drops behind the board.

if you're edge jointing, the Euro style guard would be located just above the cutter head with the gap between the guard and the fence being just wide enough to allow the board to pass. Again on higher level machines, the guard moves to allow the board to pass and closes behind the board.

have a look at the first minute or so of the video at this link Experience perfection with MARTIN: T54 (http://www.martin.info/cms/_main/planing/t54.html)
You would have to be very unfortunate to fall onto a Martin guard and contact the cutter head.

BTW
I like your push stick. Depending on how short your stock is, you might extend the push stick completely cover the piece you're working on.


Ian, certainly no offence taken & I value any constructive input.

One thing I want to make very clear I was not actually performing a task on the jointer / surface planer when this occurred, I have over balanced and placed my hand into harms way. Yes I was performing a series of jointing operations but not actually passing a work piece over the cutter head or even had a work piece on the machine at the time.

The jointer was set up for edge jointing, I had been using the push block shown previously with the standard red plastic push stick supplied with many machines as a hand held feather board forcing the workpiece against the fence.

In this event the injury would still have occurred with the gap between the Euro / Bridge style guard and the fence, in fact it may have been worse. Even though the "pork chop" style guard opened to let my fingers contact the cutter head, I believe the resistance from the spring and the guard prevented my fingers going deeper into the cutter head. With the Euro style guard there would have been a gap there & no resistance from the spring & guard at all.

Perhaps if the spring was stronger my fingers would not have made contact, then it would be difficult to operate in a normal fashion.

The ideal would be an automated bridge style guard that senses wood contact, opens to permit the work piece through then closes automatically with flesh detection technology i.e. will only open for wood & not flesh.

Thank you for the Martin T54 link. Very nice machine but well out of hobbyists budgets. In recent time I have seriously considered a small power feeder and the Euro/Bridge style guard, both have practical issues and as a hobbyist I simply don't have the volume of work or budget to justify their purchase.

This is one of those events that fits into the plausible but unlikely category but has serious enough outcomes (i.e. digit amputation) to warrant attention. I thought I had covered those hazards / risks, and made the judgement that at the time I was medically fit & competent to operate the machine. I rolled the dice - it went pear shaped.

John.G
18th June 2016, 10:47 AM
One thing I want to make very clear I was not actually performing a task on the jointer / surface planer when this occurred, I have over balanced and placed my hand into harms way. Yes I was performing a series of jointing operations but not actually passing a work piece over the cutter head

Perhaps if the spring was stronger my fingers would not have made contact, then it would be difficult to operate in a normal fashion.

The ideal would be an automated bridge style guard that senses wood contact, opens to permit the work piece through then closes automatically with flesh detection technology i.e. will only open for wood & not flesh.

This is one of those events that fits into the plausible but unlikely category but has serious enough outcomes (i.e. digit amputation) to warrant attention. I thought I had covered those hazards / risks, and made the judgement that at the time I was medically fit & competent to operate the machine. I rolled the dice - it went pear shaped.

From a purely safety perspective my worry is that you're going to have another turn like this around the machine and - regardless of whether it's engaged or not - next time its going to be more then a fingernail and a bit of skin and hair. And I agree - there are risks everywhere and hey.. somebody else can have something go wrong driving down the road and run into you and you're dead, or a meteorite can belt into your head when you're mowing the lawn or...

Its about realistic appraisal of risk because we all of us are going to die someday and somehow. I've had more close shaves then I care to admit courtesy of a life not spent wrapped in cotton wool, and had two "near misses requiring stitches" and a whole heap more of "plain dumb luck kept me alive" incidents in the industry, at least one of which was a million to one chance of it ever happening thing and theres no way I could have foreseen it occurring. I aint staying home because of them.

I reckon it would be easy to put a heavier spring onto the guard. Then put a little pneumatic ram onto it to override the spring tension, said ram operated by a foot operated pressure switch on the floor. The foot switch will be "loose" ie its on a line that allows you to shift it somewhat so you can start differing workpiece sizes with your foot on the switch . You put your foot on the button to operate the ram and the guard opens, take your foot off and the piece is held against the fence by spring tension and the spring closes behind it as it passes through, maybe even a roller or three on the workpiece side of the guard to reduce friction - just like an air control on a feed hob basicly.

All up cost would probably be around $300 if you've already got a compressor in the shed, and its not rocket science engineering so long as you get the ram stroke and positioning right to allow it to open to the full width of the cutterblock.

But I'd still be investigating them mini CNC routers... theres nothing like the frustration of learning to master a new toy.

Mr Richardson didnt have much to do with this closure(Peninsula) ... my understanding is they got an offer for the land&buildings too good to refuse.

BobL
18th June 2016, 03:54 PM
From a purely safety perspective my worry is that you're going to have another turn like this around the machine and - regardless of whether it's engaged or not - next time its going to be more then a fingernail and a bit of skin and hair. And I agree - there are risks everywhere and hey.. somebody else can have something go wrong driving down the road and run into you and you're dead, or a meteorite can belt into your head when you're mowing the lawn or...

Its about realistic appraisal of risk because we all of us are going to die someday and somehow. I've had more close shaves then I care to admit courtesy of a life not spent wrapped in cotton wool, and had two "near misses requiring stitches" and a whole heap more of "plain dumb luck kept me alive" incidents in the industry, at least one of which was a million to one chance of it ever happening thing and theres no way I could have foreseen it occurring. I aint staying home because of them.

I reckon it would be easy to put a heavier spring onto the guard. Then put a little pneumatic ram onto it to override the spring tension, said ram operated by a foot operated pressure switch on the floor. The foot switch will be "loose" ie its on a line that allows you to shift it somewhat so you can start differing workpiece sizes with your foot on the switch . You put your foot on the button to operate the ram and the guard opens, take your foot off and the piece is held against the fence by spring tension and the spring closes behind it as it passes through, maybe even a roller or three on the workpiece side of the guard to reduce friction - just like an air control on a feed hob basicly.

All up cost would probably be around $300 if you've already got a compressor in the shed, and its not rocket science engineering so long as you get the ram stroke and positioning right to allow it to open to the full width of the cutterblock.

But I'd still be investigating them mini CNC routers... theres nothing like the frustration of learning to master a new toy.

Mr Richardson didnt have much to do with this closure(Peninsula) ... my understanding is they got an offer for the land&buildings too good to refuse.

The spring loaded pork chop on the 16" pointer at the tree loppers yard has been replaced with a larger, HD, all Al, chop utilising a HD door closer mechanism.
I don't have a photo of it on the machine but here it is held in my bench vice with the old one alongside.
The closer spring is much stiffer than the usual pork chop spring, which suits the HD nature of the planing operations it is used for.
I also like the idea of a pneumatically operated ram of some kind.

383252

woodPixel
18th June 2016, 03:58 PM
is there an after-market euro guard available?

Mobyturns
18th June 2016, 08:40 PM
Good news. The second lot of dressings have been removed, the stiches have held and all is coming along nicely. My first aid helped preserve the skin etc as viable for reattachment. It will even look like a normal finger!

Mobyturns
19th June 2016, 08:37 AM
is there an after-market euro guard available?

I haven't seen any after market Euro / bridge guards specifically for the Carbatec jointers / surface planers. I have noticed that most jointers supplied to the hobbyist in Australia have a "pork chop" style guard fitted whereas the combination machines (jointer / thicknesser) tend to have Euro style guards. I have been informed that "pork chop" style guards are not permitted in NZ.

If a wood worker uses the rebate facility on most jointers they have to remove the "pork chop" style guards. For thick work pieces a Euro guard is typically elevated for "under the bridge" jointer operations which imo presents a much higher risk profile than "pork chop" style guards. Even a 19mm opening onder a bridge guard presents significant risk to fingers.

I'm not convinced that a Euro style guard would have prevented my injury, quite the opposite actually. If I had a Euro guard fitted & correctly set up for the task I was performing that portion of the cutter head would not have been covered at all, only while a work piece was over the cutter head. At least the "pork chop" style if correctly maintained returns to cover the whole of the cutter head after each pass.

Neither style of guard offer total protection, each has some sort of short comming, which is where good training in safe use and a diligent operator is valuable.

Jeff Leslie
24th June 2016, 04:50 PM
Geoff, sorry to hear of your mishap today (particularly after I learnt that JM had won Best of Show again).

In time, I think Sawstop technology will be applied to ALL woodworking machines. I do however suspect I will be long gone by then....

regards Jeff

Pagie
24th June 2016, 05:53 PM
You can't put a saw stop on carving knives or draw knives etc. Next you will want to put seatbelts in cars.

woodPixel
24th June 2016, 07:48 PM
It had me thinking about the sarcastic responses to "sawstop on this and that".... there is another thread where a new drill press has some smarts built into it. It stops drilling if the user's hand gets too close.

Jointers, router tables, thicknessers, bandsaws and tablesaws are pretty "dumb" devices and lack anything that I'd call technological improvement.

They sure look fancier, but the underlying tech could have been implemented in 1950 for all the change. Of course, the argument of "its proven and it's cheap", or "why bugger with something that works".... but looking at this thread.... hmmmm. I'd like the *option* of buying one at least.

A jointer with a touch sensitive instant-stop would have saved an en-manglement.

It doesn't strike me as *especially hard* to implement touch sensitive instant-off in a great number of tools. It doesn't need to be as dramatic as a SawStop (BBBOOOOMMMM!!!!!).... but an electric/magnetic/physical/friction brake seems entirely do-able.

How many people have slipped when using a router table? A router that has a cartridge brake that slams into a special area of the shaft to cease rotation is trivial.

Amazing that this isnt an option on a great many stationary tools, considering SawStop have been flogging their products since ~2002.

John.G
24th June 2016, 08:04 PM
I cant see that (compulsory sawstop type technology, or at least the tech. as it currently stands) working perfectly under every conceivable situation because some woods can conduct electricity better then others due to (a) variations in cell structure and density (this is why different timbers have correction factors over MM guage readings) (b) moisture content - wet wood is still a conductor (c) trace elements in the wood and (d) the different extractives and oleoresin compounds that the timber might carry, maybe even (e) treatment/paint/coating that the timber might have had applied. So while sawstop might be a really great idea, I suspect its actual application is not as flawless as the manufacturing blurb suggests.

Not that the fact that it doesnt necessarily work ever stop government from regulating something as compulsory *eyeroll*

Then factor in Fred Woodworker whos fitted with a pacemaker... is an electrically charged blade more or less risk to him? I guess the question is do you want to find him dead on the floor from a heart attack or bled out but... its a question Id be asking if I had a pacemaker and was looking at one of these.

Don't get me wrong, I think its great technology and if it saves someone serious injury then its a good thing. But I also worry that it might teach a wee bit of complacency into the next generation, which is harmless so long as they never use anything but "guarded" machines. Problem is not every machine can be guarded, some machinery and operations are inherently riskier then others, and practicing safety is a habit that is easier to forget then to instill.

woodPixel
24th June 2016, 09:57 PM
JohnG, I totally agree with every point you make.

My number one concern with any safety device is it introduces complacency and an expectation of complete safety. One only needs to read the local newspaper here, it is replete with examples daily of hapless, lazy, moronic public servants litterally doing fantastically stupid things and blaming others. It's part of the culture. It's a lottery payout daily for deliberate acts of ignorance (some defy every conceivable form of self preservation).

Here there is an OH&S culture of the most over zealous nature it is almost unfathomable how a single thing gets done..... But, I still believe the most simple things work better than over done sophistication.

Mobyturns' post is from a dude who (I think) makes safety a prime consideration (as per his catch line). It shows even a conscientious user can be caught afoul. If we could use tech to improve a thing, we should at least give it a go..... To stop an accident, not an act of stupidity or profound ignorance.

There will always be Darwin Award contenders in every industry... and some people simple deserve to be erased, but it would be nice to save my finger just in case an act of nature/health/trip made a maiming avoidable :D

John.G
24th June 2016, 10:25 PM
I'll tell you something weird here right... but not weird when you stop and think about it, just typical human behaviour really.

If I've got visitors/customers/whoever and I need to turn the 2 bench on to resaw something who do you think are the most dangerous assistants?

Cabinetmakers and woodworkers, thats who.

And the why is both scary and obvious... it looks like a big table saw, so we know what we're doing/ not doing to be safe around this thing. So unlike people who are clueless we stand closer or jump on the back side and tail out to help, because we know what we're doing because its just like our tablesaw that we use every day, but bigger.

And it is, sorta. But sort of not too, and while its not hard to make the jump to working safely around one because they have the basics behind them, that immediate "its safe to do this/stand here/ walk there" reflex is hard to overcome.

People who've always worn chaps stand behind chainsaws when crosscutting, people who grew up without them stand beside them. Ever noticed that - same thing.

Mobyturns
25th June 2016, 09:04 AM
Then factor in Fred Woodworker whos fitted with a pacemaker... is an electrically charged blade more or less risk to him?

I fit that bill however I have the added hazard that my device is also a defibrillator – and it kicks – like a draft horse on steroids! I have had an “inappropriate activation” in a controlled environment and under medical supervision – the cardiac rehab exercise gym. It hurts and it is very disorientating when it occurs.


My number one concern with any safety device is it introduces complacency and an expectation of complete safety.

Mobyturns' post is from a dude who (I think) makes safety a prime consideration (as per his catch line). It shows even a contentious user can be caught afoul.


Contentious user ?? not me - conscencious user perhaps.

I fully understand the hazards and associated risks of continuing my hobby with my medical condition and have managed it very well for almost ten years.

My family and my GP support my decision to continue to enjoy life. I still drive, rode a motorcycle (untill recently), mountain bike etc all risks that are managed and I comply with “Jets Law.” 'Jet's Law' and your requirement to report medical conditions - Far North (http://mypolice.qld.gov.au/farnorth/2012/10/09/jets-law-and-your-requirement-to-report-medical-conditions/) I see my annual drivers medical assessment also as my ticket to operate wood working machinery.

I put in place control measures that limit risk – but like all things in life we never quite know when we will encounter an unplanned event! My family & GP all realize that a residual risk due to my medical condition remains no matter how dilligent I am.

Yes I have compliant machinery, in good working order, I observe the recommended operating proceedures however my medical condition created the initial hazard. The machinery guard operated as it is intended to – but I’m not supposed to fall forward into the “pork chop” style guard.

Its been a timely let off, a very firm reminder that I have to be very conscencious in apraising my physical / medical condition when opperating machinery.


If I've got visitors/customers/whoever and I need to turn the 2 bench on to resaw something who do you think are the most dangerous assistants?

Cabinetmakers and woodworkers, thats who.

And it is, sorta. But sort of not too, and while its not hard to make the jump to working safely around one because they have the basics behind them, that immediate "its safe to do this/stand here/ walk there" reflex is hard to overcome.

Complacency and familiarity are hazards that we also must manage. The fall into the “subjective hazard” category – our ability to perceive that what we are doing is a hazard or our ability to perceive the actual risk associated with what we are doing.

Table saws injure far more wood workers than any wood worker would acknowledge.

Yes I have strong views on safety, guarding of machinery etc, and about wood workers / turners understanding the hazards they face and the associated risk.

In my event a good understanding of the above limited the damage. I know I could have totally prevented the event by not operating machinery or persueing my hobby BUT I’m not quite ready for tartan slippers and a shawl over my knees just yet.

ian
25th June 2016, 03:22 PM
Firstly I need to apologise for not responding sooner to these earlier posts ...

One thing I want to make very clear I was not actually performing a task on the jointer / surface planer when this occurred, I have over balanced and placed my hand into harms way. Yes I was performing a series of jointing operations but not actually passing a work piece over the cutter head or even had a work piece on the machine at the time.


I was not actually performing a task on the jointer / surface planer when this occurred. My fingers were not on the side of a work piece.

I was rotating my body back to the infeed side to pick up the next item and the push stick, when I lost my balance. Because I had restacked the items on the outfeed side I did not have anything in either hand. I'm pretty confident that my variety of disposable push sticks are suitable for the tasks and I'm not in the habit of passing my fingers over the cutter head. Your suggestions & input are greatly appreciated though.
however I feel obligated to "correct" you ...
regardless of where a piece of wood may or may not have been in relation to the cutter head, the cutter head of your machine was in motion and you were standing close enough to touch the machine. It follows that you were using the jointer when the incident occurred.

Now I'm not suggesting that you should have turned the machine off while you stacked the piece you had just milled on the outfeed table, more that in terms of critically examining what went wrong as a path to understanding how to prevent a reoccurrence, to say "I was not actually performing a task on the jointer" is to deny a key causative factor associated with your injury -- the cutter head was in motion when your fingers came into contact with it.

Whilst a "normal" Euro style guard would be adjusted so as to leave a gap between the guard and the fence when edge jointing, the fence could also be moved sideways to have that gap closer or further from the front of the machine so that in the event of a "dizzy spell" your balancing hand would land well in front of or well behind the fence and hence clear of the cutter head. (I hope that description is sufficiently illustrative.)

The reason I linked to the Martin T54 jointer was not to suggest that you should buy such a machine but to give an example of how a spring loaded Euro style guard covers the entire cutter head except when a piece is being moved over the cutter in a controlled manner. Whilst hindsight is always 20/20, if your machine was fitted with a guard similar to that on the Martin your fingers would have most likely landed on the guard pushing it down onto the table without exposing the cutter head. If you look again at how the Martin guard operates, exposing the cutter head requires that the work piece slides along the angle between the fence and the table in order to contact the wedge which will force the guard to open. Based on your reconstruction of the event, your body was only ever angled for that sort of motion when you were using a push stick to convey a piece over the cutter -- at which time the cutter was covered by the work piece and push stick.


Please understand that my motivation here is to assist you find a way to continue to enjoy wood working without your family living in fear that "pop" will have a "turn" and entangle himself in the jointer or another machine.
To that end I'm strongly of the view that the "pork chop" style guard is nowhere near as safe as a Euro style guard when used properly.


While it's quite some time since I last studied the Aust/NZ risk standard, I agree with your assessment that
This is one of those events that fits into the plausible but unlikely category but has serious enough outcomes (i.e. digit amputation) to warrant attention.I think, given your medical issues, you should upgrade "unlikely" to "possible". That is unless you can associate the probability of "taking a turn" with the time of day, or the time since you last took your medications.

ian
25th June 2016, 03:29 PM
Moby

I should have prefaced my post above by wishing you well with your continued recovery, and thanking you for sharing your experience and being open to constructive comment.

Please accept my apology for not so doing.

Mobyturns
26th June 2016, 10:47 AM
Ian,

I agree with everything you have said in the two posts above.

With my comment "I was not actually performing a task on the jointer" I was attempting to make it clear that I was not actually pasing a work piece over the cutter head, I don't deny that yes I was using the jointer, and yes it should be turned off when you change tasks or leave the machine. I did neither, as the "restacking" was nothing more than bumping the stack back into alignment, a few seconds at best.

I am critically examining how I can make the machine "safer." Thank you for the links to the Martin T54. Your comment "your fingers would have most likely landed on the guard pushing it down" highlights the issue that most safety features, guards etc are not entirely fool proof - there may be a certain combination of events / factors that will render them ineffective (or a smarter idiot!).

With my cardiac condition I have always assessed my risk factor as high and possible, hence my apparent obsession with safety. (ps the plausible but unlikely assessment was for a typical "healthy" person.)

Thank you for your unemotive and critical assessment of the event and for your suggestions, I truly appreciate your comments. I have to find a better and safer method.

ian
4th July 2016, 12:06 PM
Moby

I've been travelling a bit lately and have had some time to think about your predicament ...
For what it's worth, I think your best course is to re-examine your whole workshop procedure.

On the assumption that you WILL have another dizzy spell, I'm of the view that when one occurs you need to be protected from any rotating machinery. Push sticks and guards will go so far, but the rest will depend on changes to your methods of work.

In the case of the jointer, I think a properly used euro-style guard and push stick will provide adequate protection while you're passing a piece over the machine, but you need to rethink what you do once the piece is wholly on the outfeed table. I think you need to
1. consciously move past the cutter with the piece being machined
2. place the piece just machined somewhere stable
3. step away from the machine
4. and only then return to the infeed side of the machine, choosing a path that keeps any stabilising hand away from the jointer's tables.

yes, machining will take longer and yes, you will get more exercise in the shed, but by confining your movement to pre-planned paths, a stumble should not result in you contacting the cutter head.


hope this helps in some way

Mobyturns
4th July 2016, 01:13 PM
Ian, thank you for your advice and thoughts on this matter. I'm already pretty much doing what you have described above. I'm pretty pedantic about keeping a trip free work space and like to have a reasonably clear work zone but like many other wood workers I don't have the luxury of a dedicated work shop / shed. The process I had going on the day was a straight work flow, which was very effective but obviously not fool proof.

I have been very conscious of the fact that I can experience an episode at any time no matter how stable I have been in the period before I operate machinery. I fully realize that it is somewhat of a lottery when I choose to enjoy my hobby and use machines. This has been discussed at length with my GP and my cardiac specialist, both agree that I or any other able bodied / "healthy" person probably faces more significant risk in a vehicle on my way to work ( have you seen how aggressive Townsville drivers are these days).

After managing my cardiac condition for almost ten years, I just have a little advantage in that I know I have the condition, what the "odds" are, and what are the "triggers" so I can prepare for it, by making the process and machines as safe as I can make them. I fear for the guys who carry on blissfully with "it won't happen to me" attitude - we are all ageing and more prone to these medical conditions.

After watching the video clip (and others) on the other jointer thread I'm not overly convinced that the bridge guard is any safer than a pork chop guard for me. As you say I have to concentrate on process and habit now and continually reassess what I am doing if I wish to continue with my hobby.

The guard designs are such that an operator can bypass some or all of the safety features, by not setting them up correctly or deliberately jamming them open OR can operate them in an unintended manner i.e. open a pork chop guard from the front. One thing I have done since is change my body positioning relative to the cutter head - I now stand closer to the out feed side with smaller stock (~300mm). A power feed is probably a better option though.

dr4g0nfly
12th July 2016, 05:07 AM
I have to sympathise, over the weekend I was using my largest roughing out gouge on too tight a curve, it jammed, causing the toolrest to drop. My hand went between the rest & the rotating wood - tore the sige of my hand open, now nursing several stitches.

Lesson Learnt.

Mobyturns
12th July 2016, 08:54 AM
I have to sympathise, over the weekend I was using my largest roughing out gouge on too tight a curve, it jammed, causing the toolrest to drop. My hand went between the rest & the rotating wood - tore the sige of my hand open, now nursing several stitches.

Lesson Learnt.

Hope you heal fast! "Causing the tool rest to drop" sounds a little strange - at least it didn't break like in some of the reports I have heard of.

I think there are a lot more of your type of injury than we hear about as most turners just go off the grid for a while until the injury heals, rather than be embarrased by their mates. It is so easy to injure oneself around machinery, a simple act like yours - just push the limits a little to far and whamo its over in less than a second.

As Woodpixels says above I am very safety conscious but not over zealously so (but I guess that depends upon your risk tolerance.) - I plan my work tasks so that I do not take unnecessary risks or perform tasks that present quite high risk or present unacceptable consequences. No prizes for being a dead hero.