Should a lathe have any vibration?

[Ian007]

I am only just learning this turning stuff so am truly a novice in this area other than pens.

I brought a new vs lathe at the adelaide wood show, its a carbatec MSL 3815. It was delivered on the Monday after the show.
when i turned it on the first time I noticed that it had a vibration in it without any timber in it at the 1500-1900 rev range, I didnt think this was all that good so after a bit of a discussion with the shop I got it changed over last week after a two week wait.
The new unit does the exact same thing so was wondering if there all the same?
I went in to the shop on saturday morning to talk to somebody about this vibration in the lathe, they had the unit that I returned on a bench in the shop with it open so we could have a good look at it.
Turned the unit on to show the bloke that this thing vibrates, then we removed the belt to see if it did the same thing which it did, so it seems that these units motors are not balanced.

I tried to get an answer to "whether a lathe should have any vibration in it?"
to which I couldnt get a straight answer. Rather funny considering that this bloke is a respected woodturner.

So any help in answering the vibration question would be great.

Many thanks Ian :)

[RETIRED]

Short and easy answer, No.

[RETIRED]

BUT, the long answer is that you will get a little vibration with anything that uses a belt drive. Imperceptible in most cases but still there. 'Tis the nature of things that rotate.

[Ian007]

so this vibration should it make the tools fall off the bench then?
or should it just me minor?

Cheers Ian :)

[RETIRED]

Tools shouldn't fall off the bench. They may buzz or hum" a bit. Sounds silly I know but it is about the only way to describe it.

The vibration should be no more than a well set up grinder.

[barryr]

is the lathe fixed to the bench and how heavy is the bench ? also , how level is it ?

Bazz

[Ian007]

is the lathe fixed to the bench and how heavy is the bench ? also , how level is it ?

Bazz

Yep lathe is fixed to the bench, while the bench is only pressed metal it has reasonable boards fitted top and bottom to stiffen it up also have a fair bit of weight in the bottom to help just in case,and its also level.

the one in the shop on Sat was sitting on a solid timber work bench and still vibrated

So what lathe would you suggest?

Cheers Ian :)

[fxst]

Ian as said tools shouldnt fall off. I have a symtec which is belt drive and I can leave tools on it while turning all except out of balance lumps.
I know its a lathe that some love to hate but it does the job I want it for. :D
Depending on outlay $$ the flash harry technatool? DVR lathe might be an option.
Just a thought but the bearing tight? or the pulleys out of balance ? was the chuck fitted ,it may be the culprit. :confused:
Just some things that might help reduce vibration to a normal level.
Pete

[Ian007]

Depending on outlay $$ the flash harry

Just a thought but the bearing tight? or the pulleys out of balance ? was the chuck fitted ,it may be the culprit. :confused:
Just some things that might help reduce vibration to a normal level.
Pete

Hear that Harry72 your now regarded as flash :D
bearing are ok on the first machine I put a dial test indicator on the pulleys and they all came up within 2-3 thousands of a mm other than a spacer which was about .5 mm out.
But as I said in the first post this vibration was still there when only the motor was running. Chuck made no difference whether there or not.

Thanks Ian :)

[Jim Carroll]

I agree with the others there should be no vibration, sometimes you may get a little resonance throught the motor and belts but not enough for the tools to fall of the bench.
As a demo we put a 50 cent peice on its end on the headstock to show how smooth the lathes run and these are generally lathes put together at the show and not bolted down.
There could be a number of reasons the one you got vibrated from the motor, belt, pulleys, bearings or it is just a lemon.

[Termite]

At the Newcastle wood show recently, one of the Sydney Woodturners group was on the Trend Timbers stand and he showed me a DVR lathe with a 10" bowl in it. He then stood a 50c piece on its end on top of the motor unit and then proceeded to run the lathe up to 3000rpm. The coin didn't moove and the lathe was just sitting, not bolted down, on a rather flimsy bench.

[ptc]

Get your Money back.
I own a Symtec.

[Fred in Tassie]

Hello Ian007

My son purchased a MSL-3815 from Timbecon, guess what it had a vibration. The unit was returned on 20 July 05, recived on 28 July 05. Timbecom advised him on 8 August that they had received the lathe and a technician woud look at it shortly and decide if they would repair or replace the head unit. To date he is still wainting on Timbecon.

It appears that there may be a problem with these lathes. The thing vibrated with no timber mounted. I do not believe that a new lathe just out of the box should operate in this manner.

The only way to fix the problem may be to request a refund.

I will llet you know how it progresses.

Cheers
Fred

[Phil Spencer]

But as I said in the first post this vibration was still there when only the motor was running.



I have a lot of involvement with motors, if the vibration is still there with the belt off then the motor has a problem, probably a balance weight missing of the rotor. Two options first get the rotor balanced, a good rewinder should be able to arrange this, Second get rid of the cheap motor that they fit to these things and buy your self a quality motor.

Regards

Phil

[Ian007]

I have a lot of involvement with motors, if the vibration is still there with the belt off then the motor has a problem, probably a balance weight missing of the rotor. Two options first get the rotor balanced, a good rewinder should be able to arrange this, Second get rid of the cheap motor that they fit to these things and buy your self a quality motor.

Regards

Phil

Phil so you think a bloke should go and spend a few hunded dollars more on a brand new machine just so it works the way its meant to :confused:
Not this little black duck. :cool:

Cheers Ian :)

[tonysa]

G'day Ian

Sorry to hear of your problems.

My 2nd hand Delta doesn't vibrate, solid as a rock at all revs, even when turning some pens this evening. She's bog standard floor standing with Delta supplied stand. Its the belt driven type.

They must have a dud batch if this is the second one you've had.

Sorry to say this but I reckon you need to call it quits and get ya money back and try elsewhere. Good thing you didn't buy from interstate !!!!!

Cheers
Tony

[Phil Spencer]

What I meant Ian is: Most likely your rotor is out of balance and probably the rest of the production run is also out of balance that is why the dealer can't fix it. If you disassemble the motor you will find pins in the end of the rotor they use these pins to fix balance weights usually a washer with the pin peened over, either your rotor has not been balanced or it has not been done properly (I have seen these weights come loose and embed themselves in the winding and bugger the motor).

My comment about buying a quality motor: Most motors and machines are made to a price these days with cost savings made where possible (we all want the cheapest price and the manufacture is willing to oblige) these savings are made in the production process using sub-standard parts and cheap labour that operate like trained monkeys not understanding what they really do.
<O:p
For the reasons mentioned above when I buy machinery (and I consider price also) I steer clear of equipment with integrated motors like your lathe so I can later retrofit better quality parts when I need to.
<O:p
Having been involved with Electric motors for 17 years designing for special applications dealing with factories in Europe and China I have learnt that there is more to a motor that the rotating shaft.
<O:p
In my Brook Crompton days I even sold motors to when he first set up at Tooradin.
<O:p
Regards
<O:p
Phil<O:p

[Ian007]

No longer a problem for me, it got returned today, I figured its only going to pee me off in the long run. so I will sit on the bucks for a bit and then either throw more money at it or not bother with a big lathe and get a big bandsaw instead :D :D

Thanks for the feedback guys

Cheers Ian :)

[gatiep]

<O:p
For the reasons mentioned above when I buy machinery (and I consider price also) I steer clear of equipment with integrated motors like your lathe so I can later retrofit better quality parts when I need to.
<O:p

<O:p
Phil<O:p

Phil,
Just a short note. The motor on the 3815 is not integral like on the DVR. It is a motor mounted in the headstock casing with a polybelt drive to the spindle. It is a high performance, high torque motor according to the manufacturers.
I'm positive that your diagnosis of unbalanced rotor is spot on.

[Ian007]

Phil this lathe motor ect looks like this

Cheers Ian :)

[Harry72]

Flash Harry here, I can see the problem from here... its that wicker basket stand you've got it sitting on in the last pic!

[Ian007]

Flash Harry :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :D :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[Retromill]

If the new motor also produced unacceptable vibration then I would say that the manufacture has not ballanced thier armatures after they have been wired.
There is a lot of lacquer , copper wire and such that can unbalace a perfectly machined bare amarture. I will bet London to a brick that the motor is of Chinese manufacture.
Place rubber pads between the motor and its connecting points .
Also replace the belts with " Fenner Powertwist belting " which is designed to reduce transmitted vibration.

[Tankstand]

G'day Retro,

This thread is 22 months old and alas Ian007 does not post here anymore.

I hope he pops in for a look once in a while (Hi Ian).

[ozwinner]

I hope he pops in for a look once in a while (Hi Ian).

Yeah me too. :(

Al :cool:

[Frank&Earnest]

Well, these "bumps" have some benefits. I learnt about the 50c trick and tried it on my new Jet 1442. Couldn't be happier. :)

[Harry72]

Yeah I aint seen the big fella for ages either.

[weisyboy]

i would say that the problem is that your bench is not heavy enough my lathe was doing the same thing so i simply hung 3 besa bricks on wire under it and it fixed the problem try placing somthing heavy on the bench and see if it helps.:U

[BANNED]

Hi all
Even tough this thread started 22 months ago, I wonder if the MSL-3815's are still doing the same (excessive motor vibration), as I'm looking for a new lathe to replace my GMC, and I was interested on this model for approx $1100. When I mention on this forum a few days back, that I was thinking about this model, and I requested some advice possibly from someone that had one, instead I was advised that this lathe could have some problems, and that someone did mention some time ago, that he returned his. I tent to believe, this was probably the original thread, so near 2 years passed, do these lathes have still the same problem? anyone, please...!!!
Cheers
GV

[joe greiner]

Ouch. For that much loot, I'd want NO vibration. Perhaps not quite a Swiss watch, but shouldn't shake the tools around.

(Had a look at your pics, GV. My first thought on that thread was "It's a poor mechanic that blames his tools." BUT what a POS that contraption is! Miracle your results were as good as shown.)

Joe

[soundman]

Oh well as long as we are in the land of the walking dead. (resurected posts)

It this time looking at the new BIGGER jet mini lathe is certainly worth a go.

I have to original.... I saw the new one at the show & I want one.:~

cheers

[Jim Carroll]

Any lathe you buy no matter the brand should not vibrate.

You should be able to put it together whether on your bench or one supplied with the lathe and turn it on and have no vibration at any speed.

If there is any vibration check that all parts are secure and check the belts as these seem to be the one area that causes most problems.

You should not have to weigh down a lathe to get rid of the vibration.

I was told of a demonstrator years ago who was doing a demonstration on a Nova lathe and he complained that he never liked the Nova lathes because they were noisy, turned out he had left the knock out bar in the headstock.:-

Always check everything before starting up the lathe.

If it vibrates after all checks send it back it is not a sander.:2tsup:

[rsser]

Always check everything before starting up the lathe.

Showing the Stubby off the other day ... vibrated like the clappers with a modest blank btwn centres. :oo: ?? 150kg steel stand anchored into concrete ...

Turned out I hadn't cinched up the quill :-

[Studley 2436]

I read through this again thinking that Ian had come back on. I still have a set of his chisels for a lathe I have to give back to him.

Studley

[Jim Carroll]

So easily missed Ern.:rolleyes:

And you stand there looking at and thinking I am sure everything is Ok:doh:

[rsser]

.. yep, especially good in front of an audience ;-}

.

[Frank&Earnest]

I just realised that the 50c test is just for suckers - the flat edge would require a really unacceptable amount of vibration for it to fall - so I tried again with a 20c piece. Still happy. It failed with a 10c piece, but it is not a Swiss watch, as Joe said... Would that still count as "turn it on and have no vibration at any speed", Jim? IMO it is the starting torque that makes the coin fall, so we can't really tell about the vibration unless we position the coin while the lathe is running. Has anybody tried this?

[Jim Carroll]

Usually the coin is left there all the time so you can see it standing there at start up, running and stopping.

There is lathes that will definitly make the 50c fall during all three stages.

Why the 50c well it is the easiest to stand up, no one wants to stand there waiting for you to try and get the thing to balance.

If the starting torque is that strong then what is it doing to the peice of wood in your chuck.

[Frank&Earnest]

If the starting torque is that strong then what is it doing to the peice of wood in your chuck.

Now you got me worried... are you telling me that once up even the 10c coin should stay up, otherwise the starting torque is going to be seriously damaging the wood? (I tried at 2300 rpm without load, with an unbalanced big blank, even at 250 rpm it would be worse, I guess).)

[rsser]

F&E, stop figuring how many angels can dance on the head of a pin .... Jesuitical niceties!

Hear about the old widower in a nursing home? Having two affairs with widows there. Drops one ... she confronts him: what does SHE have that I don't??

Well, he says, she has Parkinsons .. (heh heh) .. and I don't have to do a thing.

[Frank&Earnest]

F&E, stop figuring how many angels can dance on the head of a pin .... Jesuitical niceties!

Hear about the old widower in a nursing home? Having two affairs with widows there. Drops one ... she confronts him: what does SHE have that I don't??

Well, he says, she has Parkinsons .. (heh heh) .. and I don't have to do a thing.

Well, you started it... and I do not have an affair with the lathe, I don't want it to vibrate at all!:U I have heard about big hairy blokes having a tango with theirs, though...:p

[BANNED]

Ouch...!, I'm not going there, the last time I did, I end-up dancing with a broomstick.
What I can say is, with all my experience with wood machinery, only a few I ever experience without any vibration at all. I've notice, that most of those specially calibrated machines, were heavy in its construction (frame), and you will know when you're working with one of those.
As far as wood lathes are concern, I believe the same principal should apply, not that I have much experience with a wood lathe as a tool, so far I know how too much vibration on a wood lathe feels, and I will know when I have a calibrated lathe, the day that I have the chance to put my hands one of them.

In the mean time, the 50c coin is glued with silicone by it's edge on the top of the GMC headstock, so that I don't feel so bad about it...!, yeah!.

All for now, take care
Cheers
GV

[Frank&Earnest]

In the mean time, the 50c coin is glued with silicone by it's edge


Aha! That's how you do it, Jim? :D

[Jim Carroll]

Buggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr secrets out.:oo:

Just as well you cant see the double sided tape.:D