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View Full Version : Smoked Oak, a timber review.



artful bodger
11th August 2016, 06:26 PM
I can understand why you would smoke an Atlantic salmon or a cod or even an eel but blimey!, whoever thought of smoking oak must have been smoking something.
I had turned a very small piece of this stuff some time ago however the order was here this week for 2 x 150mm dia and 3 x 200mm dia objects in smoked European oak.
The bloke who I was turning the job for said the timber was rather expensive. This is the regular European oak that you see commercially available in timber yards on the mainland (you don't really see it here in Tassie) that has been given some sort of extreme heat treatment in log form resulting in a darkening of the timber in a most uniform way. Tasmanian blackwood is about the darkest stuff I sometimes turn but this smoked oak is way darker.
Here is a picture of regular Euro oak next to a bit of the smoked stuff.
390365I have turned the regular Euro oak quite a lot and it is very much the same as the American oak both to look at and to turn. I get the feeling that this smoked stuff has almost taken on a different characteristic as far as turnability goes, perhaps due to the heating. It seems to cut cleaner and produce more of a shaving than a dust compared to the regular stuff and the finish after sanding (no other finish) is near a mirror finish. See next pic.....
390366It also seems to be lighter in weight, maybe cause it is bone dry. I'd be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this if anyone else has turned both sorts.
Here are a few more pictures for your perusal.
390369390368390367 Rather happy there are a few left over pieces from this job.

Bushmiller
11th August 2016, 07:02 PM
Artful Bodger

That has come up very well. I have not heard of this technique before.

I went looking and did come up with this, but no explanation of the technique.

Smoked Solid Timber | Eco-Core (http://www.ecocore.com.au/products/timber/smoked-solid-timber)

Regards
Paul

Simplicity
11th August 2016, 07:17 PM
The funny thing is,
Is smoked Tiber smoked with burning timber.
Or am I just weird lol.

smiife
11th August 2016, 07:53 PM
Hi Killjoy, oooppps AB.:U
Is this the process they call fuming?
I seem to remember reading in a mag.
But can, t think how it was done !
I am sure it involved vinegar ? But i could be wrong.....

Simplicity
11th August 2016, 08:59 PM
Hi Killjoy, oooppps AB.:U
Is this the process they call fuming?
I seem to remember reading in a mag.
But can, t think how it was done !
I am sure it involved vinegar ? But i could be wrong.....

From memory fuming is the process of placing a timber(finished piece)
In a air tight vessel(bag)with some ammonia in it.
For a period of time
I've only read of it never done it.
I think ??? Could be wrong or have some details wrong.

Cheers Matt

smiife
11th August 2016, 09:23 PM
From memory fuming is the process of placing a timber(finished piece)
In a air tight vessel(bag)with some ammonia in it.
For a period of time
I've only read of it never done it.
I think ??? Could be wrong or have some details wrong.

Cheers Matt

Hi matt, yeah, I think that was It , ammonia !
never done It myself , but I am sure someone has
and will tell us "how to ".......

artful bodger
11th August 2016, 09:40 PM
delete

smiife
12th August 2016, 09:29 PM
delete

:?:?

Phily
12th August 2016, 10:26 PM
Wikipedia describes smoking of oak using amonia fumes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming
It is the tannin within the wood that reacts to cause the darkening. I presume that pressure chambers are used to assist even penetration for commercial timbers. Any which way, its a great look. Might even try with some of my green oak blocks to see what happens (minus the pressure chamber).

David Mitchell
13th August 2016, 10:35 PM
Jex in. Vinegar will darken the oak
Regards
David

Paul39
14th August 2016, 02:16 PM
I find this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_fuming

Rustic Oak Crown Cut Aged - Natural Wood Veneers (http://www.channelveneers.com/rustic-oak-crown-cut-aged/)

Adler Fertigparkett: Smoked Oak (http://www.adlerparkett.com/english/woods-and-grades/hardwoods/smoked-oak/index.html)

It occurs to me that one could make a bowl or other turning, do everything but the final sanding, fume it, then do final sanding and finish.

It would be interesting to see how deep the smoke effect would be, and would you sand through. I also wonder if the turning would warp from the moisture of the fuming.

Sturdee
14th August 2016, 05:40 PM
About 5 years ago I collected a small bucket of burned timber off cuts from a local stair maker. I was told that it was especially imported from the USA for a client who wanted the floors and stairs made from it.

Whilst I don't know the specie it looks very similar to yours. Very dark and smelled of burned timber. I turned a few items from it and it stank in the workshop for a few days. Even now the rest of the off cuts, having been stored in an open aired shed, still smells a little bit.

At the time I was advised that it is a very common practice to use this kind of timber to line the outside of hunting cabins as it can stand up to the summer heat and winter snow without further maintenance.

It is burned in a kiln, similar process to making charcoal, and somehow changes the timber to make it so very durable.

Can bring a sample to the next Melbourne get together if there is interest in handling this.

Peter.

artful bodger
15th August 2016, 09:52 AM
The stuff I used did not have a noticeable smell. I had heard though that it was a heat treatment rather than a chemical/ammonia process, although I have no definitive proof of that.

Paul39
15th August 2016, 11:02 AM
Here are a couple more processes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=395coGRLFn0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CLvXUcOM-U

I think the way it is done is heating at a high enough temperature to get the timber to darken, but not high enough to char, and keeping it at that temperature long enough to go all the way through. I suspect as long as there is a demand for smoked timber and the premium price holds, the temperature and time are a closely guarded secret.

I have an annealing oven used in metal working that is able to hold close temperature, but have so much going on in my life that I need to do other stuff before trying to darken wood.

I have inadvertently darkened and charred the edges of roughed out bowls in a microwave. One might get an old ugly microwave that had several defrost settings and play with cooking wood samples.

NathanaelBC
15th August 2016, 11:20 AM
Some of this "smoked" timber sounds more just like kiln-dried but with the kiln cranked way up to just below deflagration ... so not as hot as making charcoal which is what the smelly smokey timber is likely more like.

NathanaelBC
15th August 2016, 11:21 AM
I have inadvertently darkened and charred the edges of roughed out bowls in a microwave.


That's a novel use for a microwave. I just use our microwave for sanitising and drying out teatowels.

artful bodger
19th August 2016, 07:34 PM
Well yesterday I spoke to the architect that supplied the smoked oak for the job and asked him what he knew about it. His answer was a bit surprising. It went like this, "the timber is heated with heat and a chemical is also used". I think he said ammonia, I can't be 100% sure because of what came next. "The smoked oak look was developed to match the look of oak beams that have been in English barns for centuries and have been stained dark by constant contact with horses urine".
There you go, who would've thought there was a market for such timber?.
Unless someone is taking the "piece". I don't know for sure but that really is what I was told.

Bushmiller
19th August 2016, 08:02 PM
At least we can rule out horse s**t.

Regards
Paul

Paul39
20th August 2016, 02:47 AM
Well yesterday I spoke to the architect that supplied the smoked oak for the job and asked him what he knew about it. His answer was a bit surprising. It went like this, "the timber is heated with heat and a chemical is also used". I think he said ammonia, I can't be 100% sure because of what came next. "The smoked oak look was developed to match the look of oak beams that have been in English barns for centuries and have been stained dark by constant contact with horses urine".
There you go, who would've thought there was a market for such timber?.
Unless someone is taking the "piece". I don't know for sure but that really is what I was told.

This goes along with everything I found. I don't think the upper beams would be in contact with horse urine, but if the stall is not mucked out regularly there is a definite strong ammonia odor. I have an indoor only cat. If I let it go too long without dumping out and rinsing the litter box, there will be an ammonia odor, exactly the same as bottled ammonia used for cleaning.

Literature about cat care cautions against using ammonia for cleaning, as the cat mistakes the odor as a place to pee.

One of the ways I cure roughed out green bowls is to put in a slow cooker over night and then let the surface dry, then wrap in several layers of newspaper and let sit 3 - 6 months.

I might get a piece of white oak and cook overnight in an ammonia solution, then microwave to quickly dry it. It won't matter if it cracks, checks, or splits, as it will only be a test.

Christos
21st August 2016, 06:25 PM
......I might get a piece of white oak and cook overnight in an ammonia solution, then microwave to quickly dry it. ......


I don't think this is a good idea. Microwaving produces a lot of steam which could be ammonia based. Not good for the skin, lungs, eyes etc.

Paul39
24th August 2016, 03:16 AM
I don't think this is a good idea. Microwaving produces a lot of steam which could be ammonia based. Not good for the skin, lungs, eyes etc.


I agree that agricultural ammonia is deadly, the household kind that you buy in the in the grocery store not so much.

I got an off cut from my lumber supplier that I thought was white oak, he thought it was red oak. It was much lighter than the red I am used to so went with that. I put some ammonia in a plastic container and stuck the cut end of the oak in it. In a few minutes it turned dark gray. I added some more, put a plastic bag over it and microwaved for about 4 minutes. When I think about it I stick the container in the MW for about 4 minutes which gets it nice and warm to the touch. I do get a faint odor of ammonia, but have an exhaust fan running. After two days the overall color is dark gray.

I am using my kitchen MW, but as I live only with a cat, as long as there is food and I throw a fake mouse for him to retrieve a dozen times a day, he does not much care what I do.

I'll keep doing this for a week, then dry the test piece and cut it in half to see how much the color change has penetrated. I'll make photos side by side with the untreated piece and post here.

Bushmiller
24th August 2016, 07:03 AM
Paul

I will be interested to see the results, but go carefully. I don't want to read about an unfortunate incident in the feline obituaries!

We use ammonium at work, but it is nasty stuff so it is treated carefully and face masks are used when in close proximity.

Regards
Paul

joe greiner
24th August 2016, 04:58 PM
Very recently, I saw an item on another forum with wood (Ash ironically) darkened by baking, up to 400F.

Some prowling on Google found this: Heat-Treating Makes Wood Dark All the Way Through - Fine Woodworking Article (http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/article/heat-treating-makes-wood-dark-all-the-way-through.aspx)

Another term of art is "Torrified wood." It seems to have originated in Finland, and/or was used by Vikings.

It occurs to me that darkened wood could substitute for some exotic/endangered species, possibly to different levels of darkness - ideal for segmented turning using all the same species, but different colors. That would be bizarre.

Cheers,
Joe

Paul39
25th August 2016, 02:13 AM
Thanks Joe,

Heat is much less messy than heat and ammonia. 400F is within the range of household ovens. I don't know that I would do that in my kitchen though.

I did a search on Torrified wood

Dana Bourgeois on Torrefaction for AG | Bourgeois Guitars (http://bourgeoisguitars.net/our-news/dana-bourgeois-on-torrefaction-for-acoustic-guitar/)

https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=Torrified+wood&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

NeilS
27th August 2016, 02:48 PM
Iron stains oak.

Paul39
29th August 2016, 11:25 AM
392346392347
My lumber dealer thought this was red oak, I didn't feel like digging through a 4 foot deep bin to find white oak.

After a week of setting in household ammonia, only partly covered, and warmed in a microwave several times a day, with two additions of ammonia, I get the above.

In the three part, end grain, first is untreated, second is inside of test piece, cut in half after partially dry, third is outside end grain of test piece.

In the two part, side view, untreated on bottom, treated on top. Timber is about 30mm thick.

The color is not particularly interesting to me. A good black can be gotten faster with vinegar and steel wool.

The photos were made under blue skylight, sun was behind a hill, so the color of the samples is a bit cool.