Wood to use for sash windows

[dean11]

Hi
I have to make quite a number of double hung sash windows for my 1888 house. What is the right wood to use?

One problem I foresee is the timber warping and finally cracking the glass. But perhaps the glass is strong enough to prevent less than perfectly seasoned wood from warping at all.

It has to be suitable for routing, too, of course. Meaning, routing by an amateur using basic equipment. So, VERY suitable for routing.

Some of the pulleys from the existing sashes can be re-used, but not all ... that's another issue.

Thanks
Cheers
Dean

[DaveTTC]

Cedar is tylically a good choice

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[chambezio]

The "usual" timber used was Oregon. But it was the top grade...No 1 Clear Oregon. The lesser grade was Merchant. This was usually timber with coarser grain which was used for house frames. No 1 Clear traditionally has a fine grain which made moulding it very good to use.

Just to add....when it comes time to paint the sashes use an oil based undercoat and paint ALL surfaces before you put them back into the window frames. With a descent undercoat all over the finishing coats (oil based paint again not acrylic) will last a long time against the ravages of the weather. Once you have undercoated the sashes they can be assembled back into the frames to get the top coats (2-3). If you do it this way they will last a long time.

[swk]

The "usual" timber used was Oregon. But it was the top grade...No 1 Clear Oregon. The lesser grade was Merchant. This was usually timber with coarser grain which was used for house frames. No 1 Clear traditionally has a fine grain which made moulding it very good to use.

Dean,
I have been helping out with the "more tricky" parts of my kids (1900ish) house. We have done extensive window work. I am not a carpenter by trade so dont have a "modern" (ie last 40 years) trade perspective. However I have been pottering around with wood for a good while and have reasonable hand skills, and some of the ways of doing things can be worked out from examination of what you work on. Interesting stuff can be found in old carpentry text books you can pick up cheaply in second hand shops too. That being said, I dont know what woods were actually available way back when. However, given all that...

In all the work I have done on the house, all the original window fittings, architraves and skirting looks (and smells!) to me to be oregon. I showed some parts of a sash window to a bloke at one of the well known timber merchants in Adelaide and he thought it was most probably oregon, although he said there was a small chance it could be "red pine". I don't know what he meant by red pine. If it was a local SA or more widespread name of something (almost certainly) imported around 1900?
As Chambezio said, the stuff used on the windows in the kids house is very straight/close grained. For replacement parts I bought a big chunk of offcut beam (about 40x250) and sawed that up to get straight grain pieces. This sounds a bit wasteful, but it has a couple of advantages. You can select the very best quality pieces and use them where appropriate and even the odd offcuts don't need to be wasted as they are useful for filling old hacks in the original woodwork. Pictures show upper sash with lower member replaced (but not yet quite fitted and then wedged). Third pic shows you can dodge the worst of the knots and get good close grain.

392150392151392152

[DaveTTC]

Red pine in Adelaide is something I came across regularly. Similar to cedar. Never got a satisfying answer as to what or where it came from

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[swk]

Red pine in Adelaide is something I came across regularly. Similar to cedar. Never got a satisfying answer as to what or where it came from.

OK. I am a sucker for a puzzle.

Quick look at newspapers on Trove selecting South Australia and 1910-1919 (as it had the most records) gave this on the first page:

"RECORD TIMBER CONSIGNMENT.
The large shipment of timber brought from Puget Sound by the steamer Tordens kjold on Sunday, comprising 3,547,567 ft.of Oregon and red pine, for Adelaide and Melbourne, was all consigned to Mr. Julius Rosenfeld, Hindmarsh-square, Adelaide, and Melbourne. It is considered to be a record shipment for an individual firm."

Also found an article from 1914 where Reid Brothers "stated that the European upheaval had practically crippled the timber trade between, the Baltic Sea and Australia..." but went on to say that they had plenty of the commonest woods used in SA, Oregon and Red pine, as they came from the US and another shipment of them was due in soon.

So, red pine is not oregon (I was suspicious it was the same timber with a different name) but it comes from the same place. Specifically Northwest US or Southwest Canada.





A quick google search on Puget sound timbers turns up:
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_rb096.pdf

which lists the main timber stocks (in 1982) as
Douglas Fir 5000 (Million cubic feet)
Western Hemlock 3800
Pacific Silver Fir 2300
Western Red Cedar 1200
Mountain Hemlock 500
And a few other types of much smaller quantities.

My bet is "red pine" is actually western red cedar.

Regards
SWK

[DaveTTC]

It is very similar to cedar and I've often heard it called cedar particularly in orher states. It glistens in a way I dont think western red does. To me it has a different contrast between what I assume is summer growth and winter.

Happy to be corrected or told in wrong. Ita all about learning.

Somewhere along the way I had hears the red pine is Australian grown and hails from the east coast. Not at all surprised with the aboce information

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[FenceFurniture]

Google is your friend:
https://www.google.com.au/?client=firefox-b#q=red+pine&gfe_rd=cr

[swk]

Google is your friend:
https://www.google.com.au/?client=firefox-b#q=red+pine&gfe_rd=cr


Only friendly in that it shows that "red pine" as known today _can't_ be the "red pine" that was known in SA (and vic?) 100 years ago as it doesn't grow where the old red pine came from (that page was the first thing I checked after Trove).

Had a further look at the nominal uses of the woods listed in the US report and the hemlocks and the silver fir seem to be only used for smaller timbers and paper. Another piece of circumstantial evidence "red pine" = western red cedar.


Regards
SWK

[DaveTTC]

Now if someone sends me 'todays red pine' I can. Compare it to my stash and aee if indeed it seems the same

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[TermiMonster]

I knew it as California Red Pine, if that helps.

[DaveTTC]

Poor Dean. Hope we helped him too

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[swk]

I knew it as California Red Pine, if that helps.


Termi,
it does help a bit, I have been digging a bit more in Trove. Pre 1910 references do show up a lot of "California Red Pine" and later they seem to drop the description California.
I am becoming more convinced the original "red pine" wasn't western red cedar, but more likely to be California redwood (sequoia).

The natural ranges of both Douglas Fir (Oregon) and Californiaredwood are on the west coast of the US. While their ranges don't overlap they are only about 500km apart with redwood just south of the US state of Oregon and (amusingly) Douglas Fir being just north of it (not in). The west coast allows for direct ship transport to Australia in an age where ships were the bulk carriers and coastal transport the norm.


Regards
SWK

[swk]

Poor Dean. Hope we helped him too

Well, its long winded but the answer to Deans "What is the right wood to use?" seems to be ...


Oregon is definitely OK

California Redwood is probably OK

Western Red Cedar might be OK.

:-)

SWK

[Fuzzie]

They still make it. Perhaps one of these logs off a typical 1 or 2km long log hauling train in Oregon.... :U
392172392173

[DaveTTC]

They still make it. Perhaps one of these logs off a typical 1 or 2km long log hauling train in Oregon.... :U
392172392173
Can you orgsnise a few sample logs for me 😉

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Oregon is definitely OK

California Redwood is probably OK

Western Red Cedar might be OK.

They're all suitable for making sashes... and all have been and still are used for just that purpose.

Unless Dean's trying to match grain/colour for a stained finish or to meet some restoration standard?

[Rod Gilbert]

Here in Queensland a lot of Silky Oak was and is used for window sashes and final fit out.
Regards Rod.

[TermiMonster]

I have bought Cal Red pine from Lewis & Co In Ormond
A Lewis Timber Merchants & Moulding Producers (http://www.alewistimber.com.au/)
But not in the last 25 years, so I don't know if they still stock it.
TM

[TermiMonster]

Also, you can use pretty much any select grade hardwood for joinery, depending on exposure, etc. Even Tas Oak, Vic ash, or heaps of Qld and NSW hardwoods, just be a bit selective in your choice.
TM

[rustynail]

For durability Australian Red Cedar, Californian Red Wood and Western Red Cedar, in that order.

[dean11]

Thanks for all those replies and SWK thanks for the detective work. I will enquire locally (Newcastle) about No. 1 clear Oregon and western red cedar.

Oregon used to be the pine of choice, but now you hardly see it. This old house has gigantic Oregon bearers and rafters; also eaves. You can see its signature weakness - it splits !

I would still like to hear from someone who makes sashes as to what they use.

Thanks! Dean

[DaveTTC]

I worked in a joinery that specialised in timber doors and windows. Cedar was considered the premium product

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[TasSculptor]

How about Sashafrass.

[DaveTTC]

How about Sashafrass.
Yes please. Would love to build my windows out of some black heart

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I would still like to hear from someone who makes sashes as to what they use.

You already have. :D

If you don't specify materials, we'll normally build from Aust Cedar. But we specialise in custom work and also do a lot of heritage restoration... and have used almost every timber mentioned so far As well as PNG Rosewood, Turpentine, Ironwood and most eucys.

Although Oregon is pretty far down on our list. :shrug: