How to care for Li-ion batteries?

[DaveVman]

I have invested in the Hitachi 18v cordless system with the 6 Amphour batteries.
I have acquired a few tools over a few months. Everything is still under warranty.

All was well until the other week, when I found the batteries will not charge. One is now completely useless and the other will only hold a few minutes work worth of charge.
They have lost their "memory".

I am only using it for DIY stuff and some woodwork projects in the weekends, or briefly during the week. Although I have been rather busy lately so the tools have not sat idle for long either.
So basically light use for such tools - but not so infrequent as to be a problem.

The only instruction I saw was to quickly charge the batteries after draining them - which I did.
I keep the batteries in the shed but we haven't had the hot weather yet so there has been no extreme temperature to worry about.

The batteries are only a few months old. Almost new. I didn't count how many times I have charged them or used them in that time - but it has not been a great many times.

So I am perplexed as to what, if anything, I did wrong. :?

I did some research on the internet but they suggest things that I expect would invalidate the warranty and don't give me any insight it to why it might have happened in my case.

I want to return them under warranty but (a) did I do something wrong? (b) how to stop it happening again?

Could it be the charger?

Or are the new Hitachi 18V slide batteries known for QA problems?

[themage21]

In general, Li-ion is totally different to NiCd and NiMH that many older toolies would have been used to. If this has been an upgrade from a Ni based system that you've had for ages, there are some key differences.

In general with Li-ion, the rules are:
- Try not to discharge to absolutely dead. The days of putting a tie wire around the trigger and walking off until the drill finally stopped turning are over (and should be avoided)
- Try to keep them cool
- Don't leave them on charge indefinitely (they don't have the same self-discharge issues as the Nickel batteries, so that generally saves you)
- For the love of all that is holy, don't put them in the freezer
- In general, Li-ion batteries should be "good" for around 500 charges and will steadily decline after that. Performance will slowly decline and then normally suddenly drop off a cliff.
- They hate everything associated with power hand tools - dust, vibration, shocks and abuse, but are better than Ni batteries (no more 16 hour charges), so who cares?

I've found that an ace way to kill Li-ion batteries is to have them left on the charger - seems to kill them faster than anything else other than physical destruction.

It's my strong suspicion that the majority of power tools in the Hitachi-Milwaukee-Makita-DeWalt price point use batteries from the same provider, with very minor differences to the cases that make them incompatible. While you can always point the blame at not paying for different levels of QA in production, the highly similar price point across brands leads me to believe that if one was having a problem, they probably all would. That also said, 6Ah is a pretty high capacity battery. To fit it into the packaging so that it doesn't look silly may lead to shortcuts being made, particularly with airflow and heat control.

It's always possible that your charger has stuffed up - two batteries going bad is a fair indicator that it's a common cause, whether it be a batch issue, care/abuse problem or a charger that doesn't know the difference between 2.0 and 3.7V/cell.

Take them back to the shop if they're in warranty. You'll know pretty soon if it's the charger, because the new batteries will also fail to charge properly pretty quickly.

Also, for the record, Li-Ion batteries don't have the old "memory" effect like Ni-based batteries were reported to have. If you charge them from 90%, they should still give you the same 100 - 0% output, however what you might find is that every so often you do have to run the battery down a bit more so that the little bitty control chip on the inside of the battery can re-calibrate itself.

Hopefully that all helps.

[DaveVman]

Thank you for the quick and detailed response.




Also, for the record, Li-Ion batteries don't have the old "memory" effect like Ni-based batteries were reported to have.


- Yes I have read that so it only makes me more perplexed.

I don't want to go back to the stop and be spun a bunch of BS and be denied a replacement. So I'm trying to figure out if I could have done anything wrong but I don't see anything.

Which also could mean I get the same result with replacements.

You mentioned not leaving them on the charger for too long. I don't believe that I did but after a while I did sometimes start to leave them on the charger overnight. If that is an issue, doesn't the charger include circuitry to stop feeding a charge once it reaches capacity? I was originally an electronic engineer and even back in those ancient times we had such circuitry built into integrated circuits. I haven't touched a soldering iron for a very long time but, who would design something for trades people, that could not be left over a weekend unattended?
With the Hitachi the light changes and the cooling fan stops once it reaches charge. The battery and the charger are cold.

Or did you mean, if they are left on the charger for weeks? That might inadvertently slowly discharge them, so I can see that being an issue.
Having said that, I'm willing to try anything to prevent it happening again.

[BobL]

- In general, Li-ion batteries should be "good" for around 500 charges and will steadily decline after that. Performance will slowly decline and then normally suddenly drop off a cliff.

A well made Li-ion should last for ~1000 charges before slowing down significantly.
My G3 iPhone lasted for slightly over 6 years before I retired it due to being unable to upgrade OS/Apps. I estimate it has been charged over 1100 times and and only in the last few months have I noticed the battery life diminishing.
It still operates but not as a phone and I leave it in my shed for use as an MP3 player and calculator.

[QUOTE]I've found that an ace way to kill Li-ion batteries is to have them left on the charger - seems to kill them faster than anything else other than physical destruction.
This is related to the battery and charger not being able to control charging correctly.
A smart battery/charger should allow a battery to be left indefinitely on a charger.
see below.


It's my strong suspicion that the majority of power tools in the Hitachi-Milwaukee-Makita-DeWalt price point use batteries from the same provider, with very minor differences to the cases that make them incompatible. While you can always point the blame at not paying for different levels of QA in production, the highly similar price point across brands leads me to believe that if one was having a problem, they probably all would. .

There are significant differences in these batteries related to temperature/charging control.
Some chargers/batteries have much better temp/charging control built into them than others.
Someone posted a link to a discussion of the differences but I cannot find it. It's a very interesting read.

In directly if you want batteries to last a long time both between charges and overall try brushless power tools. They really do make a big difference.

[Pearo]

I've found that an ace way to kill Li-ion batteries is to have them left on the charger - seems to kill them faster than anything else other than physical destruction.



This should not be the case, as the chargers for Li-ion batteries are (or should be) capable of turning off once the battery is fully charged. Charging li-ion is not like older type batteries, it requires much more care due the chemistry. If this is the case, I would be looking at replacing the charger.

Also, FWIW the big killer is heat and over discharging. Also, never store them when discharged.


Even still, batteries should not die in the warranty period. I would take them and the charger back for repair/replacement.

[Yanis]

This should not be the case, as the chargers for Li-ion batteries are (or should be) capable of turning off once the battery is fully charged. Charging li-ion is not like older type batteries, it requires much more care due the chemistry. If this is the case, I would be looking at replacing the charger.

Also, FWIW the big killer is heat and over discharging. Also, never store them when discharged.


Even still, batteries should not die in the warranty period. I would take them and the charger back for repair/replacement.

Yes I agree completely. All Li Fe chargers should either switch off or move to a trickle change of a few mA.

[woodPixel]

Id warranty them ASAP.

A friend of mine is the Oz regional sales head of batteries for Sanyo, previously Panasonic (Eneloop). He is a battery nutcase. His advice is pretty simple:

-- Dont discharge them to dead or leave them that way
-- Charge them slowly
-- Keep them cool (esp during charge)
-- Dont fully charge them.

The last point was interesting. His advice was to 80% charge, but there is no charger for that. He advised just keeping an eye on them and pulling it off as it gets around that number.

To show it works, I'm still using my original Ipad and Iphone 3. Both of which are used daily and are 6 years old and showing no signs of diminishing. My Sony Alpha camera is the same.

He advised to do this regardless of battery type or make, even the Eneloops.

[BobL]

Yes I agree completely. All Li Fe chargers should either switch off or move to a trickle change of a few mA.

Just to be pedantic there's no such thing as a Li Fe battery.
The general term is LIB "Lithium ION batteries" but an Ion is a different thing altogether from Iron
The main types of LIBs include, LiCoO2, , LiFePO4, LiMn2O4, Li2MnO3, LiNiMnCoO2 , LiNiCoAlO2 and Li4Ti5O12 but there's no straight Li Fe battery.

[nrb]

I have just bought a 18 volt Milwaukee drill and impact drive,they say that leaving them in the charger all the time is OK,any comments please.

[TermiMonster]

I've got deWalt gear. It says you should leave each battery in the charger for at least 8 hours, about once a week to:
"Equalises or balances the individual cells... allowing it to function at peak capacity." blah blah, evey 10 cycles or weekly, blah blah..
I've only done it by accident, a cple time in the past, say, five years, and all my Li batteries still work fine. (some younger)
TM

I should edit this post, as I realize that mine are not the latest gen, they are the older "post" type (not sure of chemistry, but the older Li Ion), so the remarks above are probably not relevant.
TM

[DaveVman]

Thanks for all the replies guys.
Unfortunately it just leaves me even more mystified why these batteries are no good.
As I say I haven't counted the number of times I've used or charged them but it would be less than 30 times.

[TermiMonster]

Could be a charger problem.
Do you know anyone with similar gear to try charging on his charger. (or else just take them back, Including charger).
TM

[Ubernoob]

You probably haven't done anything wrong, just bought a dud product and the warranty should cover you, if it doesn't the ACCC will probably make it happen.

A phone is a fair bit different to a drill, if you could run a phone flat in an hour and it lasted 6 years I'd be impressed but the slow discharge and charge rate would help it greatly. Lots of new phones have big batteries that will fully charge in an hour so if they aren't replaceable by the end user there could be phones that are only useable for a year or two.
My Li-Ion laptop has probably done 1000 cycles and it still seems to have 90+% capacity of new and my NiMh battery drill of the same vintage won't hold much charge at all and it wasn't used much and was kept charged, it has also started to skip gears so Panasonic won't be on the list for a replacement drill.

[BobL]

I have just bought a 18 volt Milwaukee drill and impact drive,they say that leaving them in the charger all the time is OK,any comments please.

Same with my new Makita gear. The new chargers completely turn off the charging circuit and will not apply any more charge until the battery is removed.

The Makita manual does say not to reinsert a battery that is fully charged back into the charger as this will restart the charging circuit and it will try to add a bit more charge

AT the other end of the scale the new Makita gear will not allow you to run a battery fully flat even if you hold the trigger down with a device.
It stops the tool and the battery has to go back into a charger before it will work again. This must apply to other gear as well.

[DaveVman]

Yes the Hitachi stops the tool as well. The battery wont start anything again until you charge it.

[Ratbag]

Just about all the top selling (and some less so) tools these days are using Sanyo/Panasonic or Samsung cells. It seems these 2 manufacturers have between them developed a stranglehold on OEM cell contracts.

That means everything from lowly priced Ryobi/AEG/Milwaukee/Ridgid to ludicrously overpriced Festo/Protool/Narex are using the same cells. The major differences being that some tool producers are doing it "on the cheap" by using much cheaper older generation cells rather than the cell manufacturer's latest models.

It's a much bigger market than is appears too, as the cells in your cordless whipper snipper are the exact same cells in the latest electric vehicles. To be specific, Tesla has announced it will be fitting the same Samsung cells in their next-gen sports car as Bosch will be using in their latest Eneracer tool batteries, which are similar if not the same as Metabo's latest Li-HD batteries. The same ones as in the Formula E GP racers and Isle of Man TT E-Bikes.

Two specific characteristics of these latest cells are important: firstly, using "enhanced" chemistry and heavier metallic busbars allows higher charge concentrations both in & out, and monitoring & regulation circuits within both batteries & tools allows for greater protection. This means that cells can stand higher rates of charge & discharge than previously, and that protective circuitry SHOULD provide longer cell life. Secondly, it also maintains essential backwards & (hopefully) forwards compatibility between tools, batteries & chargers.

Heat, cold & exhaustive discharge are the 3 key enemies of virtually all Lithium battery chemistries. Something as simple as storage in a hot car in summer is enough to permanently damage, if not kill outright, a battery, and allowing a "simple" tool like a torch to fully & exhaustively discharge a battery may also irretrievably damage it. Most quality power tools & batteries will monitor the battery's state.

Extensive heavy duty discharge will damage "lesser" batteries too. Makita's original cordless grinder had protective circuitry so sensitive that virtually any load at all on the grinder would trigger almost instantaneous shutdown! Their super-fast (22 min.) charger was I always felt a little too hard on the batteries too. The original Makita cells were also extremely sensitive to over-discharge, too with many colleagues' batteries suffering premature demise. Things have improved, or so I'm told. I've killed Bosch batteries a couple of times by leaving them in my Radio/Charger with the clock's display left on, with a slow, continuous long-term trickle of drain allowing for the deadly exhaustive discharge. Power tools, by contrast, usually shut down prior to damaging levels of discharge.

Nevertheless, I've had both tool & battery becoming too hot to handle from holesawing steel girders without the protection cutting in, and Bosch cordless grinders only seem to shut down automatically following a jam: they can otherwise be "leaned on" almost to the point of stalling! I'm sure the heat generated is not particularly good for either battery or tool. These days quality tools & batteries are air cooled, with in my Bosch's case heatsink finning, fans etc. But they still get hot when worked hard! Just like me.

The 80% charge figure suggested above seems to make sense for the ultimate battery longevity. Bosch 18 & 36v batteries & chargers always claimed the 80% charge capacity level from 50% charge time, meaning ultimate capacity diminishes over time. When lawn mowing heavy spring growth I often cycle batteries over the chargers faster than they can be fully charged, so far without any noticeable diminution of battery life or capacity. I still get my regulation 10 mins. wet or 20 mins. dry cutting per charge, despite them being used for several years semi-professionally in a variety of tools.

[DaveVman]

Just to update everyone. I took the batteries and the charger back to Trade Tools. They said it will take 3 weeks.
I was disappointed because I wanted to use them to put up some blinds and a few other small tasks.
The guy told me not to worry. They always tell people it will take 3 weeks so that just in case it does take 3 weeks, people will not be frustrated.

About 2 or 3 days later I get a text to say the items are ready to be picked up.
They gave me 2 new 6Ah batteries and returned the charger.

I have been using them with some light use so far. I have decided to keep them fully charged all the time now, in case it makes a difference. Figures crossed these ones will last a long time.
I am going to keep them in the workshop. I suppose the heat of a QLD summer is not idea for these batteries but I can't see my wife letting me keep them under the bed. Just how sensitive to heat are they?
It's not like I'm in Western Queensland or the desert or something.

[Pearo]

I suppose the heat of a QLD summer is not idea for these batteries but I can't see my wife letting me keep them under the bed. Just how sensitive to heat are they?
It's not like I'm in Western Queensland or the desert or something.

They should be fine in queensland summer. Just dont leave them out in the sun. Even when I am working outdoors I try and keep the battery tools in a shady spot

[Stewie D]

BobL, I think this may be the post I made that you may be referring to. From the guy that works for Schmidts Power Tools.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/guide-comparing-18v-power-tool-batteries-205693

Stewie

[BobL]

BobL, I think this may be the post I made that you may be referring to. From the guy that works for Schmidts Power Tools.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/guide-comparing-18v-power-tool-batteries-205693

Stewie

That's it.

Just beware that info is now 3 years old, which is a long time in battery technology. However it still has some useful info.

For those folks worried about temperature, Makita advises not storing Li-Ion batteries above 50ºC for any sort of extended period.
My guess is than many Aussie shed get hotter than this and is probably the cause of some premature battery failures.

[DaveVman]

I don't think that my shed is more than this. All 3 windows have holes in them and even the old door is not what you would call watertight!!! So there is plenty of ventilation in there if I want it or not!
Plus it has 2 trees overhanging it (much to my annoyance).

[Stewie D]

Just beware that info is now 3 years old, which is a long time in battery technology. However it still has some useful info.
True. I should send him an email asking him to update that article.


For those folks worried about temperature, Makita advises not storing Li-Ion batteries above 50ºC for any sort of extended period.
My guess is than many Aussie shed get hotter than this and is probably the cause of some premature battery failures.
You'd be right, given our climate and therefore sheds or workshops but I'd suggest that the temps most tradies would experience with where they store their tools in a locked or closed toolbox on the back of a ute may be even hotter.

Stewie

[Ubernoob]

Does anyone know what sort of protection Hitachi use?
I was on the hunt for a hedge trimmer for mum and the Hitachi came out on top as it was the lightest by quite a margin and was pretty cheap. She had a Japanese Makita that used to have a belt clip mounted 12V SLA battery which ended up lasting for near 15 years, the battery was replaced with a solar panel and a capacitor, hahaha! I had a look at the Makitas and was pretty unimpressed, the Ryobi units had better fit and finish but I refuse to buy power tools from Bunnies.

Long story short(ish), Sydney tool had the Hitachi skin for $149 and 4x18V 2.5AH batteries and charger for $189 so it was a bargain. I will say it is slower than Metabo, Husky etc etc and it cuts on the top on one side of the blade and the bottom on the other side but I think that reduces the weight an amount and should reduce friction helping run time........maybe.

[DaveVman]

Does anyone know what sort of protection Hitachi use?
I was on the hunt for a hedge trimmer for mum and the Hitachi came out on top as it was the lightest by quite a margin and was pretty cheap. She had a Japanese Makita that used to have a belt clip mounted 12V SLA battery which ended up lasting for near 15 years, the battery was replaced with a solar panel and a capacitor, hahaha! I had a look at the Makitas and was pretty unimpressed, the Ryobi units had better fit and finish but I refuse to buy power tools from Bunnies.

Long story short(ish), Sydney tool had the Hitachi skin for $149 and 4x18V 2.5AH batteries and charger for $189 so it was a bargain. I will say it is slower than Metabo, Husky etc etc and it cuts on the top on one side of the blade and the bottom on the other side but I think that reduces the weight an amount and should reduce friction helping run time........maybe.
Protection from what?
They honour their warranty as I wrote above.
I don't believe that you can do much harm by leaving them in the charger. The charger switches off once they are charged. I tested this and the charger stays cool. If you left it in the charger for weeks or months you might slowly drain it perhaps so I wouldn't recommend trying that.

I have the 6ah batteries from Hitachi.
Sometimes it would be nice to have a couple of the smaller batteries for quick jobs. Especially if I'm holding the tool above my head.

Protection from electrical shock? That would be difficult, since it is a cordless device. Plus it would need a return path to the battery not earth. However 18v at 2.5Amps is 45Watts. Maybe less than ideal if you have a pace maker but its difficult to see anyone getting hurt by that. Might make you drop the tool though. Not sure how you would get shocked through the plastic and rubber body of the tool. Even the battery terminals are designed in such a way that it would be extremely difficult to short them out by accident. Unless your mother is in the habit of licking batteries...

Did you mean protection from rain?

Being dropped? They can take a fair bit of that by the look and feel of my tools.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Cliff Rogers]

One thing I have noticed is that the modern 'smart' chargers can be a trap.

If the battery is too flat the charger refuses to charge them.

I have gotten out of this a couple of times by using brute force, I used a 'non-smart' charger to get the flat battery started for a couple of minutes & then it will charge on the 'smart' charger.

[Ubernoob]

Protection from what?
They honour their warranty as I wrote above.
I don't believe that you can do much harm by leaving them in the charger. The charger switches off once they are charged. I tested this and the charger stays cool. If you left it in the charger for weeks or months you might slowly drain it perhaps so I wouldn't recommend trying that.

I have the 6ah batteries from Hitachi.
Sometimes it would be nice to have a couple of the smaller batteries for quick jobs. Especially if I'm holding the tool above my head.

Protection from electrical shock? That would be difficult, since it is a cordless device. Plus it would need a return path to the battery not earth. However 18v at 2.5Amps is 45Watts. Maybe less than ideal if you have a pace maker but its difficult to see anyone getting hurt by that. Might make you drop the tool though. Not sure how you would get shocked through the plastic and rubber body of the tool. Even the battery terminals are designed in such a way that it would be extremely difficult to short them out by accident. Unless your mother is in the habit of licking batteries...

Did you mean protection from rain?

Being dropped? They can take a fair bit of that by the look and feel of my tools.



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Sorry, I don't really know much about them I guess they have low voltage cutout and with all the terminals on the battery I'd assume the balancing is done by the charger. Is over current normally in the tool or the battery?

The manual for the batteries or hedge trimmer said not to leave the battery on charge for more than two hours.
The only Hitachi tool I own is a grinder so I'll be interested to see how well everything lasts, having four batteries should make it last a while if they are stored charged.

[DaveVman]

Sorry, I don't really know much about them I guess they have low voltage cutout and with all the terminals on the battery I'd assume the balancing is done by the charger. Is over current normally in the tool or the battery?

The manual for the batteries or hedge trimmer said not to leave the battery on charge for more than two hours.
The only Hitachi tool I own is a grinder so I'll be interested to see how well everything lasts, having four batteries should make it last a while if they are stored charged.
Yes the Hitachi ones have a low voltage cut out. The tool will seem to just stop and refuse to start. In fact its in the battery.

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[DaveVman]

One thing I have noticed is that the modern 'smart' chargers can be a trap.

If the battery is too flat the charger refuses to charge them.

I have gotten out of this a couple of times by using brute force, I used a 'non-smart' charger to get the flat battery started for a couple of minutes & then it will charge on the 'smart' charger.
I've read about this numerous times on the web except they say it's the smarts in the battery. They force the battery to accept a charge but I'm sure that would void the warranty.

If it's the charger then how do I get a non smart charger?

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[DaveVman]

Sorry, I don't really know much about them I guess they have low voltage cutout and with all the terminals on the battery I'd assume the balancing is done by the charger. Is over current normally in the tool or the battery?

The manual for the batteries or hedge trimmer said not to leave the battery on charge for more than two hours.
The only Hitachi tool I own is a grinder so I'll be interested to see how well everything lasts, having four batteries should make it last a while if they are stored charged.
I didn't see or didn't notice anything in the instructions about not leaving them on the charger but that would agree with advice given here by someone else.

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[Cliff Rogers]

....

If it's the charger then how do I get a non smart charger?....
Can't recommend anything off the shelf.
I'm an electronics tech, I had a 2nd charger so I opened it & 'dumbed' it down. :D
Now that I know not to let them get too flat I haven't had the problem again.

[Ausworkshop]

I have a very old Panasonic cordless drill that I got for my 21st in 1996, I have only just this year started using my second battery. It's an old Nicad 12V and the drill has worked fine for all these years, it was only recently that the original battery stopped holding a charge and was getting worse compared to the newer battery replacement I bought off Ebay. It was the latest technology at the time and the charger is a 15min quick charge (they called it a coffee break charge). These old Panasonic drills are in my opinion the best they ever made. Does anyone else know of a cordless drill battery lasting this long? I used to be an electronic tech manager at a battery manufacturer here in Vic, (mainly work for Bosch in Clayton). My boss used to swear by the old Ni-cad technology providing the batteries are treated right. I think batteries and charging circuits for power tools have gone backwards in recent years, it's all marketing crap and trying to cut manufacturing costs. Probably influenced by mobile phone technologies. Our phones have the latest so they assume we want the same tech for our cordless tools. Personally I think we'd all be better off with the old Nicad technology for drills, it worked well, why change it and over-complicate things? There's enough of that in all other areas of life already. One of the reasons I left electronics and became a full time woodworker was because I don't like things changing all the time, quite often it's for the worst, especially 'upgrades' to software. Drives me nuts. If something works well why change it.
I'm just glad there are still manufacturers making these old replacement Ni-cad packs, they work well and at this rate my drill will probably out last me.

[TermiMonster]

My original cordless drills were Makita from about 1990. The NiCads lasted a good 10+ years, with daily abuse.
Nothing I've had since comes close for longevity, but we use them for much more now, rotary hammers, grinders, saws, planers, etc. So the new batteries are much more powerful and do heaps more work.
I suppose we can't have our cake and eat it, too.:)

[Ubernoob]

Nicad batteries were rubbish and I am glad they are gone, as a kid I had a few RC cars and the difference between the Ni-Mh and a Ni-Cd was night and day, the later batteries would output a constant current for 80% of the run time, Ni-Cd was good for two minutes then performance dropped slowly. With the Ni-Mh batteries I was drawing an average of about 50amps and they lasted a couple of years with frequent use.

My Panasonic drill is near four years old and the Ni-Mh batteries are dying but the gearbox is too so it's not a great concern, when I see a Metabo at a good price I will buy one, they still feel nice and solid and have a three year battery warranty like Milwaukee sadly they don't have a five year warranty on the tools like Milwaukee.

EDIT- Running matched cells made quite a bit of difference for the old RC car stuff too, I guess that doesn't matter now as(I think) each cell has it's voltage monitored so you don't have to worry about cells going reverse polarity.

[Ausworkshop]

I'm happy with Nicad rubbish if it lasts 20 years and does everything I need. I think half the problem is the way they are treated and the charging circuit. Also the Panasonics from 4 years ago are completely different than the ones from 20 years ago, just like almost every other tool. As I said, sometimes I think they take a backward step and over complicate things when the original design was actually better. I still say that Nicads if treated correctly and charged at the proper rate with cut off circuitry etc they will out last any other battery. Sure you can get better performance from a brand new Nimh but in terms of bang for buck over a 20 year period I have the evidence to prove it. I would have upgraded to the Nimh if I had a correct charger for them but my old one just handles the Nicads and does a great job, especially at 15min charge time. I'm always reluctant to 'upgrade' anything, I always get burned if I do, maybe it's just me, I like old stuff. If it ain't broke don't fix it :2tsup:

[Ubernoob]

Yeah I used some Mexican made Panasonic drills 15yrs ago and decided that I'd buy one when I needed a new drill, my Chinese mad one looked very similar but it is garbage in comparison. I had a Makita Ni-Cd drill for about a year and a half and both batteries died, it was a great little drill, I should have re-packed the batteris with Ni-Mhs and just used my RC car charger, it was 12-240V which would have been handy.

I am impressed your batteries lasted so long with a 15min charge, you usually have to leave them on trickle after something that brutal to get any sort of performance out of them.

Nicad batteries may well last the longest but I find the tradeoffs just aren't worth it for me, I am hard on my gear which is why I try to always buy trade grade gear, if one part fails it makes economic sense to repair it, I usually seperate my tools/bike parts so they can be recycled more easily.

[Pearo]

Over the years on the tools I cant complain about NiCad. Only one I can complain about is the old makita stuff about 25 years ago! I have used all sorts of gear over the years on a daily basis and I have killed most gear. Off the tools now, but Panasonic was the best of the crop, only ever managed to kill one of their devices which is pretty impressive if you put it in my hands. Bosch is next but I killed one of their drills about 2 years in. Makita would be my new choice but that is purely based on the number of tools that have that run on batteries now. I digress, NiCad as a tradie you always run them dead, then charge. Maybe thats how we made them last longer. Lithium is defiantly better though, but I have just killed one of them too.

[Daniel80]

Hi,

I also had been faced with a similar problem with my Makita liion batteries. I have two batterie packs. The first was indicated as defective by my makita charger just after one year without any extensive use. Maybe about 30 charge cycles. The second one gave up 3 month ago, means about 3 years after purchase.
As electronics engineer I decided to solve this annoying issue for ever by using my own balanced rc charger from my kids. All to be done was to solder a standard balancer cable to each cell of the pack. Now with the rc charger connected I have full control of my packs. I can use any program like long term storage, fast charge,...
Both packs are healthy and charge to their full capacity without any problem.
For Makita packs I found that they have problems with their electronic circuits in the packs. Sometimes the temperature sensor fails or a misdesigned fuse causes to set a error entry.
I also have read that the charger blocks a pack permanently if it fails loading 3 times.

I lately made a video about this, maybe it helps...

https://youtu.be/vuGIkkYFt5g

I recommend this only if you are known to liion batteries and if your warranty has already gone.
In general I always charge my batteries in a fire proof metal bowl.

Greets
Daniel

[Ubernoob]

Well, it would seem that I didn't need to worry about the longevity of the batteries, the hedge trimmer lasted about half an hour and it's dead, hahaha!

I started using my little Li-Ion Bosch sander again a couple of weeks ago and it has been quite badly abused, left in the sun, charged in the sun and stored flat for probably a year. It still seems to go as well as it did when it was new, I do have to pull it apart to lube a bearing every few uses as I couldn't remove it.

[DaveVman]

So far my replacement batteries have been fine. This time I have charged them after every little use. Also I have not left them on the charger overnight. I'm not sure if any of that has made a difference but at least I'm trying something. We'll see what happens over the next few months.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[edh]

Good for you getting them replaced. I have set up my charging station with a timer. My shop is also in my garage so I have put my chargers in a spot where they are quite visible when I am in there for the car. So if I notice a battery was forgotten in the charger I just take it out as I pass by. The timer works great and I intend to get another...seems like there is quite a shift over to battery powered tools for everything including garden tools.
I live in Canada so I will move the charge station inside the house for the winter.