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Hors
11th November 2016, 09:16 AM
Christmas is coming up (and Santa said I have been good)

Looking at Tormek T4 or 7/8

Will T4 do the job for a parttime turner just getting back into it, or should I push for a T7/8

Pat
11th November 2016, 10:03 AM
Hors, the T-7 has been superseded by the T-8

derekcohen
11th November 2016, 10:50 AM
Christmas is coming up (and Santa said I have been good)

Looking at Tormek T4 or 7/8

Will T4 do the job for a parttime turner just getting back into it, or should I push for a T7/8

I think that you would be better off with a dry bench grinder and CBN wheels. Probably cheaper as well. Add in the Tormek BGM-100 tool rest, and you have the best off all worlds.

Lathe chisels are usually HSS, and impervious to heat. The slow Tormek is helpful with bench chisels and handplane blades, but is less suited for lathe chisels.

Contact Jim Carroll for advice here. He stocks appropriate bench grinders and CBN wheels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

ian
12th November 2016, 05:31 PM
I'm with Derek, all you need is a dry grinder

But you're a turner. Your tools are high speed steel, so you don't need to us a CBN wheel and the associated expense

Pat
12th November 2016, 05:49 PM
I'll be the dissenting opinion.

I am a turner for 90% of my woodwrecking, and run cbn on a 6" Abbott & Ashby dry grinder and cbn on my T7. I have been down the White Alox, Light blue and Pink wheels and the Tormek lasted 4 years. I get consistent grinds, from a known flat surface. Yes the start up price is horrendous. That is your decision.

I use my A&A as a bevel setting and edge repair and the Torment to hone a fresh edge.

I do agree with Derek about ringing Jim and seeking his advice.

Hors
12th November 2016, 06:18 PM
Thanks all. Great info.

I am going to research cost of dry grinder, with CBN wheels and a good jig system

Mobyturns
15th November 2016, 03:26 PM
I'll be the dissenting opinion.

I am a turner for 90% of my woodwrecking, and run cbn on a 6" Abbott & Ashby dry grinder and cbn on my T7. I have been down the White Alox, Light blue and Pink wheels and the Tormek lasted 4 years. I get consistent grinds, from a known flat surface. Yes the start up price is horrendous. That is your decision.

I use my A&A as a bevel setting and edge repair and the Torment to hone a fresh edge.

I do agree with Derek about ringing Jim and seeking his advice.

I have an Abbott & Ashby 200mm (8") dry grinder set up with white / pink alox wheels and the Tormek BGM100 mount system plus a Tormek T7 with the Woodturners Kit and a few other jigs. Yes the start up price hits the hip pocket nerve but you end up with the best of both worlds. The BGM100 & Tormek jigs on the dry grinder permits rapid removal when shaping tools or changing grind profiles plus it's probably a good option for bowl turners who need to constantly resharpen but don't require a honed edge. The Tormek T7 permits sharpening and honing of spindle gouges and skews to very keen edges which makes fine spindle turning far easier. Slower but then again you don't have to visit the Tormek all that often if you are in the habit of producing a convex grind and using a honing plate etc.

One thing I would caution about going down the CBN wheel route is to consider the health risks from metallic dusts. The other things to consider are balancing and getting CBN wheels to run true on an existing grinder has proved to be troublesome for some turners, and guards have to be modified to accept the wider wheels. I'm not against & haven't used CBN wheels because I'm happy with what I have got.

Woodturnerjosh
15th November 2016, 04:17 PM
One thing I would caution about going down the CBN wheel route is to consider the health risks from metallic dusts. The other things to consider are balancing and getting CBN wheels to run true on an existing grinder has proved to be troublesome for some turners, and guards have to be modified to accept the wider wheels. I'm not against & haven't used CBN wheels because I'm happy with what I have got.

I would have thought the dust from dressing alox wheels would have been far for detrimental to your health?

It did take me a while to get my CBN to run true and I actually ended up using teflon tape between the wheel and the adaptor (which is where the run out is more than likely coming from) and then I used Locktite to keep the adaptor in place...it's been running fine for a year now.

Josh

artful bodger
15th November 2016, 06:19 PM
For the sake of the uneducated (me), what is a CBN wheel and is it any better than one of the white (coloured) type ones?.

derekcohen
15th November 2016, 08:36 PM
CBN is Cubic Boron Nitride, which is similar to diamond, and only a tad softer. Imagine a grinding wheel made of diamond grit - nothing to wear and always sharp. In reality, diamond grit does actually wears out on steel, but CBN does not. CBN just goes on and on, ever sharp ...

The advantage of a CBN wheel in not wearing is that it does not require dressing, never loses its shape, and this means that one never has to adjust settings.

White, pink, blue and grey wheels are wear. They have to in order that fresh, sharp grit is released to do the cutting. And so the wheels are ground smaller, out of shape and out of square, release lots of extra dust ... wear out.

Importantly, CBN wheels are made from steel and act as a heat sink. They run cool, and blades do not heat up much. Coloured wheels heat up and burn steel. You can safely grind to the edge of a blade with CBN in a way that you cannot with a coloured wheel.

My grinder with dual CBN wheels (180 grit and 80 grit) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp_html_5c5d41f4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Jim Carroll
15th November 2016, 08:40 PM
Lets go right back to the start, you have a couple of options and all depends on what you have to begin with.

A spark grinder with alox wheels 60g and 120g set up with the tormek jigs is a great way to shape and sharpen your tools.

The next step is to add those jigs to a Vicmarc slow speed bench grinder, most bench grinders run at 2800rpm so using the 1475rpm slow speed grinder is a great way to sharpen your tools.

The Vicamrc slow speed bench grinder comes with the 60g and 120g Alox wheels as standard so use these and wear them out then upgrade to the CBN wheels CUBIC BORON NITRIDE.

After this there is the Tormek T8 slow speed wetstone grinder the ultimate sharpening system.

At each step there is a larger expense but there is saving when sharpening as you only need a light hand to sharpen the tools, there can be a lot of wasted material when sharpening freehand .

The tormek system is the most user freindly system available, there is no second guessing have I got it right or do I need to adjust again, The tormek system allows for the wear and tear on the wheels

derekcohen
15th November 2016, 09:05 PM
Hi Jim

I used a Tormek for several years before adding CBN wheels to my half speed dry grinder. The dry grinder set up has effectively replaced the Tormek (which I still have and occasionally use).

The advantage of the Tormek was twofold: firstly, it grinds cool (and I would emphasise "grind" since it is not a sharpening system in my workshop - perhaps for a turner, but even there I think that it has been overtaken by the speed of CBN). Secondly, the Tormek has precision tool rests that take the effort out of handskills. However, these same tool rests are available for the dry grinder (which is what I have done).

The Tormek is slow as a cart horse and really has lost any advantage over a CBN set up dry grinder.

I would not advise anyone to work through their grey/white/pink wheels and then get a CBN wheel - a big selling point of the CBN wheels is that they are a complete game changer. Why wait until later?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Colin62
15th November 2016, 10:07 PM
I would not advise anyone to work through their grey/white/pink wheels and then get a CBN wheel - a big selling point of the CBN wheels is that they are a complete game changer. Why wait until later?

Speaking for myself, I'm waiting until later because I'm too tight fisted to throw away perfectly good grinding wheels. :B

Additionally the wheels that came stock with my new grinder are already so much better than what I was battling along with before that I'm still happy to use them.

For the record, my grinder is a slow speed Creusen. http://www.creusen.nl/metalworking_catalogus.php?cid=5&s=1

Mobyturns
15th November 2016, 11:32 PM
I would have thought the dust from dressing alox wheels would have been far for detrimental to your health?

That's why I prefer the Tormek system - no dusts of any sort, no sparks, no possibility of friction burns or wheels exploding. I very rarely use the dry grinder, more a legacy tool now that I have everything as I like it.

WOODbTURNER
15th November 2016, 11:32 PM
Woodturnerjosh, Look up Ken Rizza of woodturnerswonders.com. in the USA. Ken sells cbn wheels and also sets of spherical washers which help align wheels on grinder shafts. If you go to his site the washers are under the cbn wheels heading at the top. He also has a video on how they work. Ken is a good bloke to talk to too.

pommyphil
16th November 2016, 12:26 PM
I have a couple of magnets in a plastic bag behind my CBN wheel, that takes care of steel dust The CBN does not seem to wear so no dust from there.

The dust off Alox is scary and Tormek slow as a wet week. No contest. Phil.

WOODbTURNER
16th November 2016, 01:01 PM
I have a couple of magnets in a plastic bag behind my CBN wheel, that takes care of steel dust The CBN does not seem to wear so no dust from there.

The dust off Alox is scary and Tormek slow as a wet week. No contest. Phil.

A fellow woodturner up here has a T7 and said it was the antz pantz but like you said, he got sick of the slow speed. He now wishes he got his cbn wheels earlier and saved himself a small fortune. I think I might be buying a cheap T7 soon! As for alox wheels, yes, no more dusty crap everywhere.

artful bodger
16th November 2016, 06:13 PM
The CBN wheels sound interesting. Seems folk like them to sharpen their chisels with, how do they go when you want to grind rough lumps of metal in an agricultural manner? or is that a bad idea.

WOODbTURNER
16th November 2016, 09:07 PM
The CBN wheels sound interesting. Seems folk like them to sharpen their chisels with, how do they go when you want to grind rough lumps of metal in an agricultural manner? or is that a bad idea.

I have a blue wheel for rough stuff

Oddy
16th November 2016, 10:40 PM
At the risk of hijacking this thread... what (new) grinder brands have people had luck with for their CBN wheels? I have recently purchased a CBN wheel but found that the runout on my Metabo bench grinder is terrible, so the wheel does not run true. This wasn't really an issue with standard wheels as they can be dressed so that the face runs true.
I cannot find a single grinder brand here in Australia that is selling new grinders not manufactured in China. I'm keeping my eye out for an old, quality bench grinder that was made in Australia / USA / or Europe, but might have a long wait on my hands.

WOODbTURNER
16th November 2016, 11:48 PM
[QUOTE=Oddy;1989612]At the risk of hijacking this thread... what (new) grinder brands have people had luck with for their CBN wheels? I have recently purchased a CBN wheel but found that the runout on my Metabo bench grinder is terrible, so the wheel does not run true. This wasn't really an issue with standard wheels as they can be dressed so that the face runs true.
I cannot find a single grinder brand here in Australia that is selling new grinders not manufactured in China. I'm keeping my eye out for an old, quality bench grinder that was made in Australia / USA / or Europe, but might have a long wait on my hands.[/QUOT

I have two GMF and an Abbott & Ashby 8"x5/8" which run true with my cbn's.

Paul39
17th November 2016, 04:00 AM
Oddy,

See post # 15 above. That might help you. A shim or shims made from beer can stock might center the wheel on the shaft close enough.

Mobyturns
17th November 2016, 07:56 AM
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp_html_5c5d41f4.jpg



This is not a personal slight against Derek, however it is a great opportunity to highlight some of the commonly made oversights we all make with respect to our personal safety. While this may be an ideal setup for the CBN enthusiast with the two CBN wheels and the Tormek jig system, it is far from ideal from a safety and hazard elimination viewpoint.

Two unguarded wheels, and an overly long extension cord left coiled loosely behind the grinder is simply asking for trouble. Not only is it an entanglement hazard but an electrical safety issue as well.

Regardless of the almost negligible risk of a CBN wheel loosing fragments of the wheel as friable wheels have been known for, all exposed rotating parts must be guarded except for the working portion of the grinding wheel.

Please don't get lulled into a false sense of security with CBN wheels as the metallic dusts, contact and entanglement hazards still remain.

Oddy
17th November 2016, 08:20 AM
I have two GMF and an Abbott & Ashby 8"x5/8" which run true with my cbn's.
@WOODbTURNER - are your A&A and GMF grinders the older made in Australia models or newer Chinese ones?

@Paul39, the runout in my grinder shafts is visible with the naked eye and obvious if I put an engineer square on the bench with the blade up against the shaft and rotate the shaft-the square will move. The Vicmarc CBN wheel has a 32mm arbor and a large bushing to reduce that down to my 17mm shaft. The fit of the bushing against the wheel and the shaft is too precise to allow for any shimming I think. I have looked at those spherical washers but I don't think they would help. Maybe shimming or spherical washers could help if I enlarged the arbor of the bushing to make it a sloppier fit, but this sounds like a tedious path. I'd still like to get hold of a grinder with decent quality control to try. I guess this is an argument for the Tormek over CBN wheel on a cheap bench grinder.

WOODbTURNER
17th November 2016, 11:17 AM
@WOODbTURNER - are your A&A and GMF grinders the older made in Australia models or newer Chinese ones?

@Paul39, the runout in my grinder shafts is visible with the naked eye and obvious if I put an engineer square on the bench with the blade up against the shaft and rotate the shaft-the square will move. The Vicmarc CBN wheel has a 32mm arbor and a large bushing to reduce that down to my 17mm shaft. The fit of the bushing against the wheel and the shaft is too precise to allow for any shimming I think. I have looked at those spherical washers but I don't think they would help. Maybe shimming or spherical washers could help if I enlarged the arbor of the bushing to make it a sloppier fit, but this sounds like a tedious path. I'd still like to get hold of a grinder with decent quality control to try. I guess this is an argument for the Tormek over CBN wheel on a cheap bench grinder.

Oddy, The "newer" one was made by Brook Crompton & Betts in Australia and the older one's tag is a bit faded and scratched but I guess it would of been made here too. I inherited it from my dad well over 30 years ago. The cbn's definitely run as true as on them. The A&A is pretty old too and hasn't got any tag that I can see. By the way, I purchased my 200mm cbn's from the US which have 5/8" bores to suit my grinders.

artful bodger
17th November 2016, 05:53 PM
A while ago I was looking at various new grinders in a shop that usually sells quality stuff. They had a few different brands and I was rather disappointed with the amount of runout most of them had BRAND NEW. You could easily see it just by spinning the wheels quickly by hand. The pick of the bunch was an Aussie one (Abbott and Ashby, I think).
Seems remarkable that some manufacturers can try and sell such wobbly rubbish.

pommyphil
17th November 2016, 06:26 PM
I have a 10year old 200mm Carbatec grinder that runs dead true, maybe just lucky.

Anyone tried the Vicmarc lowspeed grinder for runout? Phil

artful bodger
17th November 2016, 06:46 PM
In fairness, Carbatec was not one of the brands on display in the shop where I was looking.

Colin62
17th November 2016, 07:18 PM
Seems remarkable that some manufacturers can try and sell such wobbly rubbish.

I bought a generic Chinese made grinder a while back and when I started it up to test it out at home, I had to clamp it to the table to stop it walking away. I left it running for about twenty minutes and came back to see a room full of smoke. I let it cool down, packed it up and got a refund.

derekcohen
17th November 2016, 09:19 PM
This is not a personal slight against Derek, however it is a great opportunity to highlight some of the commonly made oversights we all make with respect to our personal safety. While this may be an ideal setup for the CBN enthusiast with the two CBN wheels and the Tormek jig system, it is far from ideal from a safety and hazard elimination viewpoint.

Two unguarded wheels, and an overly long extension cord left coiled loosely behind the grinder is simply asking for trouble. Not only is it an entanglement hazard but an electrical safety issue as well.

Regardless of the almost negligible risk of a CBN wheel loosing fragments of the wheel as friable wheels have been known for, all exposed rotating parts must be guarded except for the working portion of the grinding wheel.

Please don't get lulled into a false sense of security with CBN wheels as the metallic dusts, contact and entanglement hazards still remain.

Just to emphasise - because it does need to be stated - only CBN wheels do not require guards. ALL other wheels MUST HAVE guards.

The reason for a guard is not to protect eyes from grit - that is the province of eye protection (goggles and specs). The reason for a guard to to protect one if a wheel explodes. This is not going to occur with a CBN wheel since they are metal.

Oh, and the coiled cords (no longer there) are far away from the wheels and were lying loosely and not connected to anything - their closeness is just a distortion from a photo. However the thought behind the warning is correct. Keep anything away from spinning wheels that may be a hazard.

Regards from Perth

Derek

bueller
17th November 2016, 09:22 PM
I have a 10year old 200mm Carbatec grinder that runs dead true, maybe just lucky.

Anyone tried the Vicmarc lowspeed grinder for runout? Phil
Knowing Vicmarc's reputation for quality I wouldn't anticipate any problems.

Kuffy
17th November 2016, 09:38 PM
Keep anything away from spinning wheels that may be a hazard.



I am not a safety cop, I am probably one of the biggest safety criminals. However...Keep anything away from spinning wheels that may be a hazard.....with a guard.

derekcohen
17th November 2016, 09:40 PM
I have a 10year old 200mm Carbatec grinder that runs dead true, maybe just lucky.

Anyone tried the Vicmarc lowspeed grinder for runout? Phil

Mine is the same, albeit a half-speed model.

Regards from Perth

Derek

WOODbTURNER
17th November 2016, 11:43 PM
Knowing Vicmarc's reputation for quality I wouldn't anticipate any problems.

Vicmarc grinders are Asian made to their spec. Stand corrected if not. Mate up here bought one and it runs fine by him.

nosnow
18th November 2016, 08:02 AM
Vicmarc grinders are Asian made to their spec. Stand corrected if not. Mate up here bought one and it runs fine by him.

True
Then they are stripped and checked rebuilted & balanced i was at the factory talking to Marco as they were going through the process early this year
Cheers Rod

Mobyturns
18th November 2016, 08:57 AM
Just to emphasise - because it does need to be stated - only CBN wheels do not require guards. ALL other wheels MUST HAVE guards.

Derek, in all sincerity, I don't like your chances of convincing a WH&S inspector on that count, if that set up was discovered in a work place. I agree there is a reduced hazard profile however the entanglement, friction burns and contact hazards still remain, so all wheels must be guarded.

Most of us are hobby wood workers or turners and don't generally fall into the definitions of a "work place" however we should be concerned about our own safety and that of friends who may also use our equipment. So we should observe recommended "best practices" in our own sheds / shops. In your own shed you may make you own choices but please don't advocate the removal of machine guarding.

Have a look at http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/atoms/files/safeguarding_of_machinery_and_plant.pdf

Oddy
18th November 2016, 09:41 AM
True
Then they are stripped and checked rebuilted & balanced i was at the factory talking to Marco as they were going through the process early this year
Cheers Rod

That sounds encouraging. I'll definitely check out the Vicmarc grinder. Anyone interested in buying a used Metabo? :U

bueller
18th November 2016, 11:39 AM
True
Then they are stripped and checked rebuilted & balanced i was at the factory talking to Marco as they were going through the process early this year
Cheers Rod
That is good to know. The slow speed grinder seems very reasonably priced considering the work involved.

Chris Parks
18th November 2016, 01:16 PM
I watched a video the other day and the lathe operator was wearing a tie which struck me as asking for trouble.

bueller
18th November 2016, 01:33 PM
I watched a video the other day and the lathe operator was wearing a tie which struck me as asking for trouble.
Oh yeah, that seems like a quick and easy way to get yourself killed.