How do I eliminate persistant brush marks in Wattyl water based Estapol ?

[harry wall]

I'm using the Wattyl water based Xtra Clear Estapol to finish a table top. The undercoat is Wattyl Sanding Sealer. I'm complying with the data sheet guidelines re temperature, etc and I've never had a problem with painting or varnishing until now.
After sanding off my first attempt because of brush marks in the finish, I purchased new supposedly good quality brushes re applied the estapol and find the same problem with brush marks. I thought I was applying a generous amount to ensure it had time to set and level but still a problem.
Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong?

[Arron]

To prevent brush and lap marks I use Penetrol. Works very well.

Check compatibility, of course.

Cheers
Arron

[Arron]

Sorry, just reread your post and realised you are using water based product. Penetrol is no good for that. You could check out its companion product Flowtrol which is intended for water based finishes, but I haven't used it so can't recommend it.

[aldav]

Your experience with water based polyurethanes is exactly the same as mine. I believe they simply dry too quickly to give the finish a chance to 'level out'. They might be smelly and evil but oil based poly's give a much better finish.

[Chris Parks]

I had the same problem with oil base polys and and resorted to a spray gun. Perhaps heat the poly by sitting the can in boiling or very hot water long enough to raise the its temperature.

[nrb]

As mentioned some of these finishers do dry quickly,I use a small foam roller to get a generous coat on quickly

[Big Shed]

One of the persistent problems with most waterbased finishes is that they don't flow as well as most solvent based. This problem is excarbated in warmer weather.

Most paint manufacturers sell a Hot Weather Thinner, basically a glycol based product, that when added to a waterbased finish keeps the film open for longer and aids in flow.

Dulux have one

Product Detail (http://www.dulux.co.nz/products/dulux-interior-products/specialist/product-detail?product=14680)

and Solver (now owned by Wattyl) make one as well.

[harry wall]

Thanks guys. It appears the consensus is the quick drying time may be the problem so I'll buy a product as you mentioned BigShed. I'll also use it when it's cooler - though I thought 20 degrees C would have been cool enough.
I'll post results here.

[Chris Parks]

To look at it another way and what I was alluding to in my post, if the poly is too cold it won't level, being warmer it becomes less viscous and will spread better. It can't hurt to try a test piece using that method.

[Big Shed]

Chris, whilst what you say is true to a certain extent, it is a double edged sword.

Warming up the waterbased poly will bring the viscosity down, although not as much as with a solvent based poly, but it will also set off the drying quicker thereby hampering the flow more.

The addition of the Hot Weather thinner (usually about 50ml per ltr) will also lower the viscosity, but more importantly it will keep the film open because it is very slow evaporating solvent allowing the finish to flow out for longer.

[Christos]

Perhaps a different approach could be considered. When I apply a finish I generally tap the brush dry and apply a very thin coat and it might need more coats to give the same protection. Generally most of my finishing via a brush is water based.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

I'm using the Wattyl water based Xtra Clear Estapol to finish a table top. The undercoat is Wattyl Sanding Sealer. I'm complying with the data sheet guidelines re temperature, etc and I've never had a problem with painting or varnishing until now.
After sanding off my first attempt because of brush marks in the finish, I purchased new supposedly good quality brushes re applied the estapol and find the same problem with brush marks. I thought I was applying a generous amount to ensure it had time to set and level but still a problem.
Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong?

Hi Harry,

Many on here are much more experienced than I am and I suspect that Big Shed and Christos's comments are right on the money.

My main contribution is to reassure you that success is achievable as I have used the same water-based Estapol (low sheen) with absolutely no problems at all. I would not have thought 20 degrees would be hot enough for fast drying to leave brush marks, but it may depend where you are in this large country of ours. If the humidity is very low it will suck the water out of the Estapol and may leave you brush marks. I was using it in Brisbane so reasonably humid - no problems at all.

I applied the Estapol fairly thinly, not generously as you would do for an oil-based gloss paint, so there wasn't much opportunity for brush marks. I also (as christos above) used a fairly dry brush and brushed it out as thin film.

Good luck

David

[harry wall]

Update....
I purchased an acrylic paint conditioner (at the recommendation of the local paint supplier). I think it's called Floetrol.
Tried that but no improvement so I bought yet another brush - a 63mm synthetic bristle Monarch Razorback Oval Cutter for $24.
That seems to have produced a good result but I had to use a new can of Estapol so there is still a possibility the problem was the previous can of Estapol.
I'll try the new brush but with the previous can of Estapol tomorrow and that will identify the problem once and for all.
So far it looks like the brushes I was using were simply too stiff.

[harry wall]

Update, again.
No luck (or maybe no skill !)
Still get brush marks. Some parts of the table top were good and others bad so I, yet again, attacked it with the sander with 240 grit to get back to a smooth finish. The next step is to try the "dry" technique already mentioned. I'll apply a thin coat. (The technical data sheet says to apply "generous coats" so that's why I started that way).
Just tried to telephone Wattyl (now Valspar) but they are closed for the day.
This product is really annoying me. I've painted all sorts of things from houses and yachts to furniture over the past 30 years and never had this problem.
There has to be an answer. I don't want anyone else to go through this crap and waste the time I have.
To be continued...

[Chris Parks]

I had exactly the same problem with a Cabots oil based poly and against Cabot's technical dept advice I finished up spraying it, I wasn't concerned with the cost as someone else was paying the bills for the job.

[harry wall]

Update, again, again.
I tried three different techniques and all with the same 25mm synthetic bristle brush and all with the same Estapol which had about 5% Floetrol in it. Humidity about 65%, temperature 21 degrees Celsius.
One: two coats, light sand after first, very thin coats.
Two: two coats, light sand after first, thick as possible coats
Three: two coats, light sand after first, thick coats but with the Estapol thinned with about 30% water.
Result: all had brush marks. Very fine brush marks were on the piece with very thin coats of Estapol. Wide shallow brush marks on the test piece with "thick as possible coats".
The best result, but still with the odd brush mark, was the test piece with 30% water thinning the Estapol. (The technical data sheet says to thin the product with up to 5% water.) It seems the product is trying to set flat because a lot of the brush marks even out but it's just not perfect. And I think it should be. Every other paint/varnish I have ever used ends up with a perfect result.
Conclusion? I have no idea. Maybe I'll try thinning with 30% water and then add 20% Floetrol.
Does anyone else have some bright suggestions ? .... apart from throwing this product in the bin!

[Chris Parks]

Get onto Wattyl and ask for a rep to call on you if possible.

[harry wall]

Yes, I spoke with a Wattyl technical guy today. It appears I'm doing everything correctly. He didn't comment on the Floetrol though but I can't see that making a difference - only an improvement since I had similar brush marks without the Floetrol.

[nrb]

Please try a roller,it was the way I overcome this problem

[harry wall]

Yes thanks for the reminder NRB. I'll try a foam roller although it must be challenging to ensure you don't get any bubbles.
Which brand do you use that works?

[Christos]

Oh my. I can feel your frustration in your previous post.

[nrb]

You need to apply a generous coat then any bubles smooth out,once you have applied it don't work over too much
I Got the rollers from bunnies,don't know the brand
good luck, this method worked for me time and again
if you have any brush marks afterwards they were there before you used the roller

[derekcohen]

I shall be using a water-based poly in the near future, something new to me, and so have been researching methods of application.

Brushing tends to have a poor result.

Recommended is a foam brush. This is, incidentally, the finish I shall be using ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUp_x4fDzqk

Even so, here is a negative report. In criticism, the presenter did not heed the instruction to stir the paint, but shook the can ..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zbZ1cXNyZk

I've not heard about rolling it on. I shall give it a try. What type of roller?

The best results appear to come from spraying, which is what I planned to do. I don't have spray equipment, but have purchased refillable spray cans (I once painted a car using them!).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Parks]

A lot of years ago I had this problem with a Wattyl product for pine, it was a one coat water based poly which supposedly prevented yellowing, yeah right.....it doesn't prevent it and I have the evidence. I had panelled a room with pine, painted the poly on and it looked a million dollars because the brush marks did not happen on the panelling but Mrs P wanted a wide window sill which also was going to be a shelf and when I applied the same stuff I had brush marks. After a few attempts and no success I rubbed it down and put down a very thick coat and let it dry then hit it with about 600 wet and dry, rinse and repeat and I had a perfect finish that looked like glass. That sort of finish is not what most people want but it suited the use the window sill was going to be put too. I recently did a big torsion box 3 metres by 600mm in mdf and used a woollen roller(oil based poly) no marks can be seen so it might be a combination of material and pixie dust that is the answer. BTW you can now buy microfibre rollers which might be worth looking at, me I would want a technical rep to show me what I am doing wrong. It is their product that when applied to their recommendations does not give the finish they say it does. Besides that we all want to know the answer!

[harry wall]

Besides that we all want to know the answer!
Well the answer is the two small rollers I just bought and tried were a failure. I tired to load the rollers fully, carefully and without bubbles. The foam one laid down more bubbles than I've ever seen, the short nap roller had less, but still lots of, bubbles. I gabbed my 25mm synthetic bristle brush, slapped on plenty of Estapol and brushed out both test pieces. They are looking pretty good but I won't know until they are fully dried.
The brush had been sitting in water overnight so maybe, just maybe that has helped.

[Chris Parks]

One thing I did with the torsion box was I poured the poly onto the surface because it was such a big area.

[harry wall]

Update. Progress has been made.
At 21 degrees C, 62% humidity, synthetic bristle brush soaked in water overnight, unthinned Estapol, about 5% Floetrol added (I'm still experimenting with the leftovers on this can), applying a very thick coat on a 80mm wide x 700mm long piece within 45 seconds AND apply to horizontal surface only gives the required (flat, no brush marks) finish.
Ahhhhh.... finally.
So I'm doing the table legs and table apron horizontal surface by horizontal surface only and all is good to date.

I see the big challenge in getting the 1m x 2m tabletop done quickly. It appears to me that maintaining a wet edge is a matter of seconds rather than minutes so I'll wait until the ambient temperature is less than 17 degrees C and add a higher % of Floetrol to the Estapol before attempting the table top.

Anyone got some bright ideas as to how I can apply a thick coat of this Estapol to a 1m x 2m surface AND have it brushed out in less than 60 seconds ??

[ian]

I see the big challenge in getting the 1m x 2m tabletop done quickly.

Anyone got some bright ideas as to how I can apply a thick coat of this Estapol to a 1m x 2m surface AND have it brushed out in less than 60 seconds ??

a soft bristle floor broom -- tongue firmly planted in cheek :D

[derekcohen]

Harry, think of me in the coming month when I plan to finish the kitchen doors I have been building, working in the early morning, trying to beat the summer heat of Perth, but expecting it will be about 25 degrees by 8:00 a.m. I am planning on spraying the finish. Will this work? I hope so, otherwise I shall have to reconsider the finish for water-based to oil-based, or wait 4 or 5 months.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Arron]

Anyone got some bright ideas as to how I can apply a thick coat of this Estapol to a 1m x 2m surface AND have it brushed out in less than 60 seconds ??

Shouldn't be a problem. Put it on with a roller then have 3 or so people 'tipping it off' at once. While at Uni I worked in a painting gang. Semi-gloss enamels were the problem at the time, and to keep an edge from drying it was common to have up to 5 painters at once working down a wall. Everyone still had to work flat out.

Seriously, though, if someone else hasn't said it already, you are having problems because you are trying to get something out of a product it was never made to give. The finish you are using is a DIY level product - it's made to be sold through hardware stores to users who probably don't even know what a brush mark is and are happy to get any type of result. If you want a quality job then may I suggest that you learn to spray an industrial lacquer, a 2 part lacquer, or maybe just French polish.

[Arron]

Harry, think of me in the coming month when I plan to finish the kitchen doors I have been building, working in the early morning, trying to beat the summer heat of Perth, but expecting it will be about 25 degrees by 8:00 a.m. I am planning on spraying the finish. Will this work? I hope so, otherwise I shall have to reconsider the finish for water-based to oil-based, or wait 4 or 5 months.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Spraying a water based product over those surfaces in Perth summer - will it work? Depends on your definition of 'work' - but really don't expect much. You could swap to oil but the long drying time will attract every bit of dust and flying insect.

I know I always come back to it, but spraying a precatalysed lacquer product would be you best choice. Polyurethanes probably the worst.

[harry wall]

Update....
I finally tried the tabletop (1mx2m). Started at 0645 hrs, humidity 65%, 17 degrees C, added about 20% Floetrol, added about 5% water, managed to get the whole top done in 12 minutes and in three separate sections (trying to maintain a wet edge). The longest time between joining one wet edge to another was probably about 4 minutes.
Result?????
Disaster! Brush marks and overlap marks.
So I've had enough of this crappy product.
I'll use the rest of the can but only on small pieces - never a tabletop again.
I've left the tabletop as is and I'll use it to test how rugged (or not) the water based Estapol is on a dining table. I guess the end result is that I'll sand it off and use a different product.
I might also try one of the home made brews (turps, linseed oil, polyurethane) as a wipe on. Lots of research required unfortunately.
Hmmmm, unless someone simply has THE answer.
I'm looking for a clear (not yellowing), tough finish for table and bench tops that protects and preserves the natural colour of the timber it's coating. Oh, and something that can be applied by brush or roller rather than spraying.

[Chris Parks]

Update....
I'm looking for a clear (not yellowing), tough finish for table and bench tops

Not trying to be a spoil sport but I don't think it exists, the manufacturers might say it and promise it but I have yet to see it. The room I did the pine panelling on is basically underground with only two windows and anything I tried there eventually went yellow.

[derekcohen]

Harry, have you tried spraying the finish?

I am about to use one of these units below. They are cheap, but I have obtained a decent finish in the past with car paint. I've yet to see how it goes with a water-based poly (I will be using General Finishes - just waiting on delivery of the spray unit).

Product Details - Preval Portable Spray Unit (http://www.plastidip.net.au/product/preval-portable-spray-unit-168)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[derekcohen]

Not trying to be a spoil sport but I don't think it exists, the manufacturers might say it and promise it but I have yet to see it. The room I did the pine panelling on is basically underground with only two windows and anything I tried there eventually went yellow.

What about Ubeaut White Shellac? I have used it on drawer sides and it remained colourless. But how durable will it be when liquids are spilled over it or wiped with detergent?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Arron]

Hmmmm, unless someone simply has THE answer.
I'm looking for a clear (not yellowing), tough finish for table and bench tops that protects and preserves the natural colour of the timber it's coating. Oh, and something that can be applied by brush or roller rather than spraying.

Wattyl 7008 is, from my experience, as close as you will get if you won't spray.

Cheers
Arron

[Chris Parks]

Drawer sides are hidden, tables are exposed to UV. The way I understand it and it was explained to me the UV causes the colour change and you basically need a sunscreen for timber to prevent that. Ideas might have changed as that was about 20 years ago when I was talking to paint technicians about the problem.

[harry wall]

Harry, have you tried spraying the finish?
Product Details - Preval Portable Spray Unit (http://www.plastidip.net.au/product/preval-portable-spray-unit-168)

No I haven't tried spraying but that Preval product looks so handy it might be worth a try Derek.

[derekcohen]

Mine has just arrived in the post. I shall test it this weekend and report back.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[fubar]

sorry to come in late to this but in regards to brushes I purchase from these people direct from the uk https://www.handover.co.uk I buy their mops sizes 8 through to 14 to apply lacquer, oil and water based finishes. They're made with squirrel hair or something similar hold an absolute sh.tload of finish and allow it to flow beautifully. carbatec sell them under the liberon name at an astronomical price so for the cost of one brush I can get 4or more ( depending on size)from the uk delivered.
i haven't tried their other ranges only the mops as they suit the current work I'm doing.

[Dareen]

Having had the same challenge previously, without finding a satisfactory solution, I have followed this thread with interest.
Then today I stumbled on this as a possible solution to your problem.

Ensuring a level finish (http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/varnish_scrape.html)

This chap has some really good ideas.

Cheers, Fred

[derekcohen]

I gave the Preval a test on the weekend spraying General Finishes water-based poly on very light Hard Maple (from the USA). The reason for the water-based poly was to keep the Maple as white as possible. The reason for General Finishes (and having to import it!) was because it was the only finish that was reviewed highly.

Reviews, however, were not good when the finish was brushed, regardless of the type of brush. Consequently I decided to spray, and the Preval (a refillable spray can) was really the cheapest way I could test this out.

No photos - it is too hard to see differences. I compared wiping an oil (like a danish oil) against the sprayed GF. The oil darkened the wood and it went from white to tan. The water-based GF stayed very light, just a touch darker than the original white.

The sprayed GF settled on the wood and left a motley finish - sort of dimply. However, 30 minutes later it had become flat and look quite matte. There were (obviously) no brush marks. The grain was raised slightly. This was dealt with by a quick rub of a grey 3M pad (very fine), and a second coat applied after an hour.

I plan to use three, possibly four coats on the kitchen doors. The test ended at 2 coats. I can see the potential. The result is flat and the surface is hard. Even at this stage I could not lift the surface with a fingernail.

Now I might look into better spray equipment for the future. Any recommendations for an inexpensive but reliable set up?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Enfield Guy]

Wagner do some good gear in turbine spray guns. Good for general purpose stuff, stains, lacquers, acrylic paint. If you want to use Nitro and the like you will need to spend money on a good gun like an Iwata. Earls do an airless, at least I think it is airless, some like them, I've no experience with them though. Carbatech used to sell them, may still do.

Cheers
Bevan

[ian]

I gave the Preval a test on the weekend spraying General Finishes water-based poly on very light Hard Maple (from the USA). The reason for the water-based poly was to keep the Maple as white as possible. The reason for General Finishes (and having to import it!) was because it was the only finish that was reviewed highly.

I plan to use three, possibly four coats on the kitchen doors. The test ended at 2 coats. I can see the potential. The result is flat and the surface is hard. Even at this stage I could not lift the surface with a fingernail.

Now I might look into better spray equipment for the future. Any recommendations for an inexpensive but reliable set up?

Regards from Perth

DerekHi Derek

a review of posts on the forum suggests that "inexpensive" and "reliable" generally do not go together when in comes to spraying a finish.

General finishes has some advice on their site https://generalfinishes.com/professional-products/application-techniques/how-spray-water-based-finishes

My copy of Jeff Jewitt's Wood Finishes book is getting a little old, but in it he recommends a three-stage turbine for a HVLP system, and cautions that a inexpensive systems "are incapable of delivering a fine, smooth finish with clear varnishes and lacquers, particularly water-based ones."

[Arron]

Derek, your choices are an airless turbine type unit, or a conversion gun.

An airless system is like Graco or Earlex (sorry, spelling ?). I think that, the truth is, without spending a lot of money, they are awful. OK for general painting and mediocre clear finishes as might be required perhaps in trim carpentry, but not for a very fine finish as you might put on high-end furniture.

Don't go near a Wagner - I have 5 (bought 2, given 3), they are all awful.

High end airless units might be excellent, but as no vendor will demo them before purchase then I guess I'll never know.

A conversion gun is basically an hvlp gun attached to an air compressor. That's the way all professional spray outfits and auto refinishers work, which tells you something.

I assume you already have an air compressor. If its 3hp or over then you will be OK for that job. Hiring is an option.

Then you need a gun. I regard the Star guns as the sensible bottom end. Maybe $300 for a good one. There is nothing a Devilbliss or Iwata gun will do that my Stars wont (and yes, I have both). There may be some differences in longevity and perhaps working speed which don't mean anything to me.

Then you need a water filter. A filter is essential but before buying an expensive one try one of those $20 jobs you get in Bunnings. It may be sufficient, it is for me and always has been.

And a regulator, preferred but not essential. One may come with the gun.

So all up that's $350.

Then the next important thing is practice.

I did a post a while back on clear finishing a kitchen with an underpowered compressor and a cheap hvlp gun from Supercheap auto : http://www.woodworkforums.com/f9/compressor-size-spray-painting-186151 . Proves its possible, even if not ideal.