Incra CleanSweep

[Dazm]

Just about to put together my router table and was trying to decided whether or not to get one of the Incra CleanSweeps. Does anyone have one?

I nearly bought one tonight but then I thought I could probably just build a wooden box with a port at the bottom to cover the router and do the same thing, the CleanSweep is nearly $200.

Thoughts?

[barri]

It just looks like a box with a dust port on the bottom and a sliding door on the side. I don't think $200 is worth it when one could be made out of scraps. What insert plate have you got Daz? It looks like to create the downdraft you need your inset rings to have holes, like the incras or one large hole to allow air flow.

The concept does look interesting.

EDIT ... Just noticed on Incra's site they actually have plans to build your own downdraft box. Sounds ironic doesn't it?

[Dazm]

Yeah I spoke to PWS and they said as long as the insert rings have a 5mm gap the down draught will work.
ill have to check out their plans and make my own.

[Dazm]

It just looks like a box with a dust port on the bottom and a sliding door on the side. I don't think $200 is worth it when one could be made out of scraps. What insert plate have you got Daz? It looks like to create the downdraft you need your inset rings to have holes, like the incras or one large hole to allow air flow.

The concept does look interesting.

EDIT ... Just noticed on Incra's site they actually have plans to build your own downdraft box. Sounds ironic doesn't it?

i have the Woodpeckers insert.

[barri]

Here's the link Daz http://incra.com/info/pivot_door_cabinet.pdf

[Lappa]

Can you use the Triton extraction hose on the router as well as the CleanSweep? If not, I'm not sure that I would be confining my router in such a small space and pulling ALL the dust down over the router and out the bottom.
Just a thought.

[barri]

You would have to cut a hole Lappa but I agree with you about dust over the router. I remember talking to the carbatec boys and they said most of the repairs on tritons were caused by dust inside the body of the router. They said I should vacuum the vents regularly particularly after a big project. So having dust heading in the "wrong" direction would worry me greatly. I'll stick with a fence dust port but I will also have a port aimed at the bottom shelf of my router cavity in my cabinet. This shelf will be angled so dust will fall towards the port. When doing a dado I'll have a loose dust hose in line with dust flow from the cut. Better than having the Triton overheat in a small area

[woodPixel]

Ive a basic home made box under the table attached to a standard 2hp dusty and 100mm pipe.

The cabinet is scrubbed clean. The TRA001 is whistle clean.

The box needed a few extra 30mm holes drilled in a few places to let more air in. This helped both suck the dust from up top, but scavenge the box.

It works very well indeed.

[Dazm]

Ive a basic home made box under the table attached to a standard 2hp dusty and 100mm pipe.

The cabinet is scrubbed clean. The TRA001 is whistle clean.

The box needed a few extra 30mm holes drilled in a few places to let more air in. This helped both suck the dust from up top, but scavenge the box.

It works very well indeed.

Got any pics :-)

[Lappa]

Air flow AKA 30mm holes would be the a key feature

[MandJ]

IMHO placing a dust extraction port at the bottom of the router cabinet is a flawed design. This idea appeared to come about years ago when only vacuum cleaners or very small dust extractors were being used. The correct location for a real dust extraction port (minimum 2HP dust extractor and a minimum 4" - 100mm port) is near the top of router extraction cabinet, and as a starting point, a wide air intake vent should be placed at the top of the cabinet door - opposite the extraction port.

Depending on the router and its own fan exit vent location / design, you may need a small deflector or guide panel to ensure maximum flow across the bottom of the insert plate - between the router body and the insert plate. The correct design will pull air over the collet and the underside of the router bit and plate, this should remove all dust from the cabinet and router. However it's only a starting point for real dust extraction from a router table as a whole. Issues like zero clearance insert ring size and type of routing work being carried out will change the balance of extraction requirements with respect too through the fence verses through the insert ring (below table) extraction.

Optimal router table extraction actually requires a rethink of the router plate and insert ring design, and possibly the type of router used. However, since most of us use a plunge router I am in the process of building a table and router mount / plate to accomplish this. I started out by building a table with a low cost insert plate and making what is considered a standard router top and fence, I felt it was the only way to work out exactly what I really needed and then work through the pros and cons of such a system.

I've made the router table and dust cabinet as I described above and I've been hacking the test router top and fence testing various extraction ideas along with fence design and adjusting methods. There are so many posts of people building router tables that I felt it would be of no interest to anyone if I added yet another thread on this. However I was planning to post a few pictures and findings / thoughts in the dust extraction forum, I could post a few pictures of the updated dust cabinet and air guide plate in a thread if anyone is interested. BTW Merry Xmas to all.

[Big Shed]

Sounds like I had similar ideas quite some time ago.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f70/router-table-incra-ls-47602#post616416

[woodPixel]

There is nothing fancy about this setup. Its simply a box attached to the underside with a 100mm hose plugged in the side.

The extra holes were drilled to reduce heat and increase scavenging by creating a swirling action. Heat when first made was a problem as the air flow was low (even with the biggest locking ring). The holes are not scientific!... I kept drilling until the internal action seemed right.

If I were to do it again, Id use thicker MDF to reduce the noise, put the collection pipe at the rear, add a new 50mm pipe to the rear to add to the WonderFence and place only two or three larger holes in various places (probably in the very bottom corner of each side). When using the WonderFence a bit of crud builds in the extrusions, but it's quite minor and never a real problem (obviously fixed if the 50mm pipe were added!) :)

My setup is very basic, but it sure does get used a lot.

The hassles I've had with the router so far are minor....

-- the chromed lifter pipes need the odd oiling every few months
-- the winder likes to get a bit sticky and get jammed periodically
-- some dust accumulated in the (empty=springless) spring lifter spring cap (cap since completely removed)
-- dust in the switching compartment (since blocked with tape and the plastic "safety" cover removed)

Mostly I just lift the router out (plate and all) and give it a blast of compressed air to flush it out... into the running DC pipe of course!!!

Overall I'm pretty happy with it, but will soon be replaced with a more accurate Incra lifter and a 240v motor from Gregories Machinery :)

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[MandJ]

Sounds like I had similar ideas quite some time ago.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f70/router-table-incra-ls-47602#post616416

Firstly, I just can't go past not complementing you on that beautiful cabinet and the craftsmanship and thought you must have put into it.

Your dust pickup modification is certainly a big improvement over the original design.

I tested my triton using its base plate extraction and the triton setup does works very well, however I decided to built my cabinet initially in a simple fashion so that parts could be removed and modified as needed, my primary goal (due to sinus sensitivity to all sawdust) was / is dust extraction (above and below table) first, safety features second and the rest a distant third, so I soon realised I would have to make a big change in design for through table extraction.

I also noticed you got asked about not placing the port at the bottom :2tsup:

I'm running a 150mm extraction port and 3HP extractor, the one thing that the past few years of testing has absolutely proven to me is this : 3HP and 150mm ducting is in reality the minimum requirement for any real (health wise) dust extraction for most machines. Thanks again for the link to your post and the great pictures - so many pictures are missing from the older threads now - it's a real shame.

[barri]

I could post a few pictures of the updated dust cabinet and air guide plate in a thread if anyone is interested

Yes, I'm very interested.

I haven't completely sorted out dust collection on my router table yet. I have made the traditional port on the fence using my DC and a 4" hose but inside the cabinet I keep changing my mind. One person suggested an angled floor of the router chamber and a hose connected to the lower end where most of the inside dust would accumulate or using the dust port of the triton, just below the collet as you have suggested and also connecting this hose to my DC using a "Y" type adapter. I'm certainly not comfortable with the incra cleansweep type cabinet particularly when you read all the warnings about using it.

[Chris Parks]

I have never understood the fascination with putting the router in a sealed box, all it does is increase the possibility of it sucking in dust and then having to repair it. The air entry via the insert ring is a bit of a furphy as well because it largely becomes covered when pushing timber across it and the air flow is reduced as a consequence.

Some years a ago a bloke placed a barrier under the table that was cut to shape to surround the router or lift fairly closely. From memory it created about a 50mm space under the table and was sealed all round. The air entry was through the opening under the router which he had deliberately not made too tight and he attached the extractor to one side of it. As the air entered the cavity at the base of the router it grabbed the chips and dust and they were then extracted and the router ran in clean air. Combine that with a hollow fence and I think it would be a fairly good set up and it leaves the router readily accessible and out of the dust path. It also adds the possibility of not needing a cabinet at all just the top which could be clamped to a bench for use if space is tight then stored somewhere when not in use.

[MandJ]

When you talk about the fascination of a sealed box and pulling dust through the router and air entry through the insert rings, you of course are talking about the traditional incorrectly designed systems - this is not the system I am in the process of designing - and in that case I agree with those observations and will add another problem to the old design, using a more powerful extractor creates the very real problem of starving the router motor of air and overheating it.

A combination of fence and below table extraction is required but the exact configuration needs to be implemented in a way that allows it to be quickly and simply changed for various routing situations, each of us have our own goals with a router table, I am also well aware of the limitations and safety issues, some jobs need to done in plunge mode, but a lot of what I do is carried out on a router table, dust removal is my number one goal for this table and through the fence extraction will NOT work with a zero clearance fence, just as extraction through the insert rings will NOT work in a lot of routing situations. There is no fascination here - just a logical approach to completely redesigning the way router table dust extraction is implemented on my table.


Any design that requires a sloping bottom and a port located there in order to remove chips and dust is the result of incorrectly designed extraction, OR a DE with insufficient capacity for correct dust capture - no dust should reach the bottom of the cabinet or the router intake.

[MandJ]

Some years a ago a bloke placed a barrier under the table that was cut to shape to surround the router or lift fairly closely. From memory it created about a 50mm space under the table and was sealed all round. The air entry was through the opening under the router which he had deliberately not made too tight and he attached the extractor to one side of it. As the air entered the cavity at the base of the router it grabbed the chips and dust and they were then extracted and the router ran in clean air. Combine that with a hollow fence and I think it would be a fairly good set up and it leaves the router readily accessible and out of the dust path. It also adds the possibility of not needing a cabinet at all just the top which could be clamped to a bench for use if space is tight then stored somewhere when not in use.

Now this is closer to my below table design, however I still have a cabinet, but it is used in a different way and not just for DE. I also have a number of jigs and router accessories that I want to store in a full moveable router table with draws, so in my case a standalone table/cabinet is the best option for my situation. Through the fence extraction and everything from the insert plate and above / below construction is being redesigned.

[Chris Parks]

Take this for what it is worth as I have not done it and I am only guessing it might work. The need for air entry in a hollow fence can be accommodated by the extraction port being at one end and the air entry being at the other end. The bits come off the router bit, flung into the fence cavity and the passing air will pick them up. The internal fence dimensions will have to be sized to the extractor of course. This may sound weird but a flat fence backed by and attached to a piece of PVC with an entry into the pipe behind the rout bit would be perfect but it might not be very photogenic.

[MandJ]

Hi Chris, I've seen a couple of fence designs along those lines, I think Incra have at least part of that in a design, but they may not be using the passing air stream to create a negative pressure at the fence opening (which I have found can be seriously beneficial as I use this with my Band saw extraction and Router below table testing), I think Incra may be using only one end of the fence as a port though.

It's also very hard to describe the DE I've decided come up with for the table without actually building or sketching something, however I did eventually find a guy who had built something similar, but he had not really taken it any further for various routing situations - but it really worked as I have proved to myself in testing. Unfortunately time is not on my side at the moment but hopefully I'll get something at least drawn up in the near future - the current butchered test table top is just to much of a mess with test holes, slots and modified fence layouts to make any sense of at the moment.

BTW, the Incra dust collection box appears to only work correctly with their modified insert rings, I guess the penny finally dropped somewhere. Now imagine that whole insert ring and insert plate becoming one simple removable plate independent of the router, and the DE optimised to take advantage of a massive increase in flow, especially when using a fence.

[barri]

I have just finished my router table and thoroughly tested it. I decided to have a 4" dust port on the fence connected to my DC and a hose from the dust port on the triton router base to a shop vac. With round over and chamfer bits there is no dust. Nothing in the cabinet, nothing on the floor or table top. I tried a stopped dado and once again, no dust. Did a through dado and there was a small amount on the floor and tabletop. Took away all hoses and found the same through dado made a lot of dust. So I'm very pleased with my set up. Having hoses just above and just below the collet, as someone mentioned earlier, works well. IMHO this is a far better solution than Incra's cleansweep.

[Dazm]

Yeah I'm going to give the clean sweep a miss. I think I'm going to go with a V design under the router to help direct the dust toward the shoot.

Like the one below

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[barri]

OK some pics

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Every time I load pics from my phone they come out sideways or upside down. Anyway, the small hose out the back is attached to the plastic dust port on the Triton and then attached to a vac and the 4" dust port is attached my DC. Quite a few people on the web have set it up this way. A few early tests have worked well with little or no dust but I don't know if this is optimal for my setup and whether I have good air flow below the cabinet. Daz, I thought about a similar floor design as well but it's sort of like cleaning up after the mess is made rather than preventing the mess to start with. If I use the correct "zero clearance insert" ring, then there is zero or little dust on the floor of my cabinet and if there is then that becomes part of my clean up routine when I've finished for the day but if your router doesn't have a dust port then that design will save you some time.

EDIT The two knobs hold a perspex guard. Hard to see it. It doesn't go up and down but I can use clamps if I want it lower or higher. It slides with the fences

[woodPixel]

Dazm, I'd be keen to hear how the V-design goes.

What is interesting is that on my basic box, with just a few holes drilled somewhat-arbitrarily to introduce "chaos" in the air, plus a 4" pipe on a basic 2hp dusty, it is scrubbed clean.

The intent was to create a vortex, but random buffeting chaos will do, as long as the little cabinet is scrubbed clean.

I think there is no real need for Barris extra hose, but I can see the reason why. Keeping the router from potentially ingesting any dust in the first place seems sensible.

When you run some work over it, please do get back with a few photos?

This discussion is making me want to rebuild mine with some "new and improved"-ments. :)

[MandJ]

403170

This is a variation of a very old design - This is like putting a bucket under a sink to catch water leaking from the drain pipe, what they should have done is find out why the water is leaking - in other words, find out why the dust extraction is so pathetic that it is allowing dust and chips to reach the bottom of the dust enclosure in the first place.

barri and CHRIS both mentioned using the Triton's base plate pickup connected to a VAC - This is the best option within the current limitations of insert plate and insert ring design - it's not ideal because of insert ring design and router base casting design, but it sure beats a poorly designed extraction cabinet and extraction port. If the extraction cabinet is designed CORRECLTY then it CAN work even better than base pate extraction, and you don't need a VAC connection, but it has to be done correctly.

Repeating what I said earlier - It's lucky in a way that dust extraction is so poor in the above photo - why?

Most routers, when mounted in a table have their air intake at the bottom (in the pic above) and the fan driven cooling exit at the top or side near the top, (base plate) with this poor cabinet / extraction design you are firstly allowing dust to be drawn into the low router motor intake, and if you actually had a decent extractor pulling a high volume air out of the cabinet, you MAY have a real chance of starving the router cooling intake and overheating the router. Not a problem if it's designed correctly.

Something to think about with these designs is this FACT - If you actually need to funnel chips and dust into the extraction port, then it is should be obvious that dust is NOT being held in suspension by the extraction air flow, dust is simply falling to the bottom of the enclosure. It MUST then imply that very little through table extraction is taking place and the dust collection design is NOT working correctly.

[barri]

I did another experiment. With profile routing my setup works brilliantly. No dust. However, with dados the dust collection is OK but there still is a fair amount of dust accumulating on the outfeed end of the table. A bit on the floor. I then took my 4" hose and placed it in the router chamber and rigged up a temporary box. Incra cleansweep type. Used a wide hole insert ring. This worked very well. Still some dust on the table but none on the floor. A big improvement but I worry the router could overheat in this arrangement. I also tried attaching the hose on the left of the table in line with the dado. Sprayed dust goes straight into the hose. This worked even better but the hose obviously gets in the way with long dados. I guess I could attach it just to the side.
My conclusion.... If you do 90% profile routing then my current setup is hard to beat. If you do a fair amount of dadoing then a hose in line with the dado and slightly above the timber works the best. Even better get someone to hold the hose and move it with the timber. This is obviously not practical. I'm still very uncomfortable with an enclosed box.

[MandJ]

Hi barri, your findings coincided with mine for this type of dust extraction, and as you noted, likely all you need in most of your work. Further testing with modified insert rings and other below table modifications to make use of a 150mm port flow, finally removed everything that tried to shoot out of an open dado.

As far as an enclosed box goes, mine is not, the intake for the router is ducted from clean air through the bottom of the enclosure, (duct follows the rise and fall of the router) when combined with extraction vacuum you now argument cooling airflow through the router motor. BTW the box (cabinet) should not be built as a sealed enclose, however for reasons that I mentioned in a previous post, as extraction volume and flow rate increase it's important to not rely on air inside the cabinet actually reaching the router intake in sufficient volume, so a simple separate clean air intake is the way to go IMHO.

EDIT: BTW that separate air intake to the router has NO effect on the ease or simplicity of removing the router.

[woodPixel]

MandJ, perhaps post that photo showing the tube extending from the bottom of the router to underneath the table here. It will make more sense to people looking at your description.

At first, when I saw the photo I couldnt work out why you did as you did, until I considered how a TRA001 sucks in its air. Your design is a good one.

[doug3030]

MandJ, perhaps post that photo showing the tube extending from the bottom of the router to underneath the table here. It will make more sense to people looking at your description.

At first, when I saw the photo I couldnt work out why you did as you did, until I considered how a TRA001 sucks in its air. Your design is a good one.

Does this mean putting a piece of 4" pipe over the end of the router to use it like a snorkel to ensure that the router is getting clean air from outside the dust enclosure?

I think I mentioned doing this on the forum years ago but possibly in a previous "regeneration" of myself. It works well provided you can find somewhere for the source of clean air that wont pick up chips and fine dust from the floor. The amount of air the triton sucks into its top is more than most people would think.

Cheers

Doug

[Lappa]

I've been using a similar snorkel arrangement mounted on my circular saw that I use in my table saw for some time. It certainly keeps dust out of the motor.

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[woodPixel]

Took a bit to find, but this is what I was mentioning. It was on this post: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f20/dilemma-regards-router-table-am-newbie-210245-post1991177#post1991177

And this is Mand J's pic.

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The Forum REALLY REALLY needs an "images only" page where one can see all the images as 150x150 thumbnails to quickly find a post! :)

[barri]

I don't understand. What does that hose exactly do?

[MandJ]

Does this mean putting a piece of 4" pipe over the end of the router to use it like a snorkel to ensure that the router is getting clean air from outside the dust enclosure?

I think I mentioned doing this on the forum years ago but possibly in a previous "regeneration" of myself. It works well provided you can find somewhere for the source of clean air that wont pick up chips and fine dust from the floor. The amount of air the triton sucks into its top is more than most people would think.

Cheers

Doug

Hi Doug, yes it's an old idea but often overlooked, woodPixel found the photo that I was just about to repost.

Some people may be tempted to just put a hole below the dust cabinet, however with a good dust extractor you will still likely starve the router intake. This is so simple and it has the added advantage of not overheating if the DE to not running, in some closed cabinets designs without a fresh air duct and no DC running, you can get a recirculation effect and overheat the motor.

[MandJ]

I don't understand. What does that hose exactly do?

It feeds the Router motor intake vent with fresh CLEAN air taken from below the dust cabinet, it keeps any dust that my be in the dust cabinet from getting into the motor, it stops the motor from overheating if the DC is not running and causing a recirculation of the router cooling loop.

[doug3030]

Hi Doug, yes it's an old idea but often overlooked, woodPixel found the photo that I was just about to repost.

MandJ, I am not trying to steal any kudos. The way I did it was quite different and really did not totally solve the problem. It made it a complete PITA to change the speed for one thing. I used a solid length of pipe which passed through the bottom of the chamber which housed the router with about 1mm clearance all round it, but no dust would escape through that gap due to that chamber being connected to the dusty. I found that the router was still drawing in some dirty air as it was drawing form under the router cabinet.
I put that part of the build on the shelf to revisit "one day"


Some people may be tempted to just put a hole below the dust cabinet, however with a good dust extractor you will still likely starve the router intake. This is so simple and it has the added advantage of not overheating if the DE to not running, in some closed cabinets designs without a fresh air duct and no DC running, you can get a recirculation effect and overheat the motor.

I do like the idea of using flexible hose but I think I might use 6" flexi with a reduction collar around the end of the router to ensure that the router intake gets enough air. This would also mean slower airflow into the 6" pipe as opposed to the 4" pipe so it would in theory suck up less debris into the router intake. combine that with some sort of filter like those used in the air scrubber type of thing and it might just be a winner.

I'm getting all excited about this now. I might have to go out and have a play with the router table. I might even be able to make the reduction collar allow for some space to access the speed control.

Cheers

Doug

[Dazm]

It feeds the Router motor intake vent with fresh CLEAN air taken from below the dust cabinet, it keeps any dust that my be in the dust cabinet from getting into the motor, it stops the motor from overheating if the DC is not running and causing a recirculation of the router cooling loop.

So this pipe is not connected to the DC, it just extends to the outside of the box is that correct???

[barri]

Here's a pic from inside my cabinet. If I follow what you are saying above I would have to thread a hose to the outside attached to the base of the router ensuring I'm covering the vents. Is that right? I could do that by either drilling a 4" hole (I'm assuming its 4") on the back of the cabinet or straight down or doesn't it matter as long as the attached hose hits clean air. What do you suggest? Also, how does that hose stay attached to the router when its lifted up and down when changing bits?
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[MandJ]

Thanks for the input Doug, obviously, to start with, the size of flex is chosen to match the intake of the router, in mine, the intake vents are on the end and the flex hose is a friction fit over that end, I removed a piece of the flex to allow full unobstructed access to the speed control, the flex sits in a collar (plastic lid) and as the flex is compressed between the bottom of the box and the end of the router, it maintains its position and expands / compresses to follow the router as it is raised or lowered and in no way interferes with the quick removal or installation of the router.

A: As mine is mounted in a full moveable cabinet, the air below the dust enclosure is completely clean.

B: IMHO you don't need a bigger hose, the location of the 150mm dust extraction port and the below table intake vent and deflection panel causes air to be pulled through motor cooling exit vents and therefore the flex, assisting the router fan to pull plenty of clean air through the motor for cooling. It's a very short flex and its flow capacity far exceeds the small intake vent opening that the router fan alone normally works with.

[MandJ]

Here's a pic from inside my cabinet. If I follow what you are saying above I would have to thread a hose to the outside attached to the base of the router ensuring I'm covering the vents. Is that right? I could do that by either drilling a 4" hole (I'm assuming its 4") on the back of the cabinet or straight down or doesn't it matter as long as the attached hose hits clean air. What do you suggest? Also, how does that hose stay attached to the router when its lifted up and down when changing bits?
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Through the bottom would be the best as it allows you to compress the flex and it stays in position as the router is raised and lowered. The flex is currently not attached at either end, the lower end sits in a collar (plastic lid with the center removed), 3 timber block hold the collar central over the lower opening and allow you to easily remove the flex. You need to look at the intake vents of your router and find a way to encompass the vents with the flex.

The flex connection at the end of the router does not have to be a totally airtight fit. The whole idea of this flex is to stop starvation of the router intake, as once you have a correctly operating extraction port located at the "TOP" of the dust cabinet and the cabinet intake vent and deflection plate (if needed - depends on the router) fitted correctly, there should NOT be any dust at this lower location, but you could starve the lower box of free flowing air - and you could have a potential heat issue with recirculated air if the DC is not running.

I am so pushed for time at the moment that I hardly have time to post, (I try though) - but as soon as I get a chance next week I will post a few more pictures as I get back to the router table build.

[MandJ]

So this pipe is not connected to the DC, it just extends to the outside of the box is that correct???

Yes, it's just a fresh air intake, obviously the extractor will assist with pulling air through the motor via this external intake port.

[Chris Parks]

If the sub base method is used the router is washed by fresh air all the time as the air entry is via the router opening into the base. If a CNC spindle is used none of this is any concern of course as the motor is not vented at all. If I was starting form scratch the CNC motor would be very tempting as it takes all these problems away and in theory any maintenance costs caused by dust in the motor, has way way better speed control, can brake the router motor to a stop and so on.

[MandJ]

If the sub base method is used the router is washed by fresh air all the time as the air entry is via the router opening into the base. If a CNC spindle is used none of this is any concern of course as the motor is not vented at all. If I was starting form scratch the CNC motor would be very tempting as it takes all these problems away and in theory any maintenance costs caused by dust in the motor, has way way better speed control, can brake the router motor to a stop and so on.

Yes I agree, but I am going this way as I may be changing routers and building a lift for the other unit, so I need everything in the enclosure.

I have been looking at a CNC motor and VFD, again cost is a consideration as I already have the other routers. If I was not saving for a Cyclone then I would definitely go that way as it's an elegant solution, priorities again.

[barri]

Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.

[MandJ]

If the sub base method is used the router is washed by fresh air all the time as the air entry is via the router opening into the base.

I should have added that with the redesigned router mounting layout and a quad function insert / zero clearance / above table and fence extraction plate, that this single cabinet design is needed. Also worth remembering, the inlet flex cost nothing (left over from my DC installation), the collar cost nothing and the complete construction and installation took no more than 10 minutes.

I can see that I'm going to have to Photoshop something for it to make sense as it will be sometime before I can make the modifications to the table/cabinet, and I'll also look for a video link I recently found online showing a router table build that was along similar lines as far as through table dust extraction and insert.

[Lappa]

Some photos of all your modifications, above and below, would be appreciated. It would make it easier to understand your aims and objectives.

[MandJ]

Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.

You would have very little through the plate extraction, you would have very little fence extraction if you were combining say a 4" hose into the fence from a larger connection into the enclosure.

Again as I said earlier, it depends on your definition of dust extraction, a vac or small DC connected in the normal way to the typical old style below table dust enclosure will not have a chance in hell of starving the router, although some people have reported problems with heat without the DC running, not everyone is running a triton, and again a 3HP or larger DC running hard line to a 150mm port with a very short 150mm flex connection into the cabinet with a redesigned intake is a different animal altogether.

No one needs to build their table like mine, I'm posting this as a source of discussion and shared ideas and for those of us who have a real problem with wood dust and cannot enjoy woodworking if we have to wear a face mask 100% of the time, I don't need a mask with this table, and trust me when I say that normally I can't make a saw cut in piece of pine with a hand saw outside in the open without instant sinus. Dust extraction is not about a clean table for me, it's about capturing the invisible dangerous fine dust as much as possible at the source (the router bit). :)

[doug3030]

Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.

Yep, but over the years on this forum and others you can see plenty of people raising issues of Triton routers getting sawdust into the works and causing big problems. Yes doing the dust extraction right will minimize the risk, but for the sake of a few minutes to put in a snorkel it would be worth it for some of us. It would depend on the rest of your setup, how much use it will get and how long you want your tools to last.

Cheers

DOug

[MandJ]

Some photos of all your modifications, above and below, would be appreciated. It would make it easier to understand your aims and objectives.

I totally agree, however the test table top was such a mess by the time I had finished that photos would have been problematic, I'm now into redoing the new top so pictures will be taken as I do that and I'll post in a separate thread.

[MandJ]

Can I ask a stupid question. What's wrong with simply opening the door when routing with the DC is on instead of that fresh air hose? I started to make this and just about to cut a 4" hole and decided to rethink. Is this worth it? I understand why you've done it and applaud your ingenuity but I know there are thousands of Tritons out there in router tables without problems.

BTW barri, I don't think there is such a thing as a stupid question, we are here to help each other and I try to be as helpful as I can and hope I get the same in return, it's just request for more insight IMHO. We are all learning here, when you stop I think it becomes boring.

Doug added the info about dust getting into the router, I forgot to include that.

[Gwhat]

BTW barri, I don't think there is such a thing as a stupid question, we are here to help each other and I try to be as helpful as I can and hope I get the same in return, it's just request for more insight IMHO. We are all learning here, when you stop I think it becomes boring.

Doug added the info about dust getting into the router, I forgot to include that.

Hi

Router tables are notoriously difficult to keep clean, however, they are also one of the most useful components of a modern workshop. Any collection system requires occasional intervention in the form of a blow out with compressed air, hand cleaning etc. There really isn't a perfect solution.

The Incra Clean Sweep has proven to be a great accessory with zero performance complaints over the years but there are plenty out there who have dismissed them as 'flawed' without even seeing one in operation. Everything including overheating and being too small are put up as reasons why they don't work. In reality when used with an adequate extractor Clean Sweeps both aid in keeping things clean and reducing noise.

Re: the Triton router, years ago mine blew up while I was using it 'hand-held' to make speaker boxes. The cause dust build-up on the circuit board the culprit lack of housekeeping on my part. I believe that these PCBs are now encapsulated to avoid this issue, but a puff of compressed air doesn't go astray.

Yes! we're all health conscious but we also need to get in and make something...... that's what our workshops are for.

Happy Routing.

Regards

Grahame

[MandJ]

Hi

Router tables are notoriously difficult to keep clean, however, they are also one of the most useful components of a modern workshop. Any collection system requires occasional intervention in the form of a blow out with compressed air, hand cleaning etc. There really isn't a perfect solution.

The Incra Clean Sweep has proven to be a great accessory with zero performance complaints over the years but there are plenty out there who have dismissed them as 'flawed' without even seeing one in operation. Everything including overheating and being too small are put up as reasons why they don't work. In reality when used with an adequate extractor Clean Sweeps both aid in keeping things clean and reducing noise.

Re: the Triton router, years ago mine blew up while I was using it 'hand-held' to make speaker boxes. The cause dust build-up on the circuit board the culprit lack of housekeeping on my part. I believe that these PCBs are now encapsulated to avoid this issue, but a puff of compressed air doesn't go astray.

Yes! we're all health conscious but we also need to get in and make something...... that's what our workshops are for.

Happy Routing.

Regards

Grahame


Hi

A table saw is what I would class as notoriously difficult to keep clean, followed by sanders, lathes and bandsaws etc. With a router table you have a relatively small cutting head and the opportunity for real "at the tool" dust extraction (not withstanding high rotational cutter speeds and associated collection problems), but conventional plunge router design, table mounting and other standard router table accessories make it difficult to optimise dust extraction.

There is nothing - none - zero dust in my below table pickup or the router and only the occasional chip on the table, I never have to blow out my WW equipment (those with modified dust extraction) with compressed air and I'm assuming that those that do are wearing a quality dust mask when doing so.

That often used quote that we need to "get in and make something" is almost a "don't worry be happy" kind of dismissal of those of us who have a real interest and question current extraction system designs - NOTE - I am in no way suggesting you meant to imply that, but that line has been used before and that is how it always comes across to me at least.

Discussing it on a forum takes more of my time that actually building and testing it. I think that after years of "making things" I can devote a few hours to building a better router table dust extraction system that meets my needs.

BTW I agree that the Incra Clean Sweep with purpose built insert rings can work better than the standard user built clones of the old below table cabinet extraction, and it may indeed be all most users need.

From my point of view, the whole point of the discussion of router table dust extraction is to throw around ideas, discuss different extraction designs (yes! there will always be different opinions - right or wrong - on some commercial products and designs) but hopefully along the way, we gain a better understanding of dust extraction and equipment, but some of us will always ask the question - is there a better way?

[woodPixel]

is there a better way?

Big suction!!!!

[MandJ]

Big suction!!!!

Yes :2tsup: but to expand on that just a little for those who are new to dust extraction, it's only a starting point as big suction is wasted unless you can actually modify the way we currently pull dust into the enclosure and fence, and I think I posted this before, Incra, when designing the Cleansweep, created a modified set of zero clearance insert rings to allow better pickup with the cleansweep enclosure, and it works and was a step in the right direction.

[Lappa]

I, for one, believe the term "zero clearance insert rings" is a misnomer and gives the wrong impression when referring to router inserts. Incra cleansweep comes with 6 rings instead of the 3 that normally come with a Kreg insert, but they are by no means zero clearance. They reduce the clearance between the inner ring and the bit on one hand by having more sizes but they increase the airflow by having extra openings.
Just my observation

[barri]

MandJ and Doug, I'll think you'll be proud of me for what I did this morning.

403341

Just attached the hose to a dust port, all friction fits. You'll notice that this hose is taking "fresher" air from the bottom compartment. Is this fresh enough or should I duct this hose to the outside through the back of the cabinet? I'm not sure I could be bothered doing any more on this.

[Chris Parks]

I, for one, believe the term "zero clearance insert rings" is a misnomer and gives the wrong impression when referring to router inserts. Incra cleansweep comes with 6 rings instead of the 3 that normally come with a Kreg insert, but they are by no means zero clearance. They reduce the clearance between the inner ring and the bit on one hand by having more sizes but they increase the airflow by having extra openings.
Just my observation

If the rings are covered by the material being machined then there can be no air flow and if partially covered then less air flow of course no matter how the ring inserts are designed.

[MandJ]

If the rings are covered by the material being machined then there can be no air flow and if partially covered then less air flow of course no matter how the ring inserts are designed.

Absolutely correct in it's current form, even when using the fence, but when you are using it and it's not covered by the work it should be designed to work to its full potential.

Again, I won't be using insert rings or zero clearance rings or a router plate or anything like the current router mounting designs - I'm sure I've already said that, and obviously, that is only one path for DE at the router bit, and it's obviously only applicable for certain routing tasks, but it still had to be modified to work to it's full potential AND IN CONJUNCTION with through the fence extraction. With a rethink of RT DE design, the task of dust extraction can transition from "through the plate" to "through the fence" efficiently and with each actually complementing each other, which is not the case with most current implementations. IMHO each is designed independently and in an impaired fashion, often working against each other.

[MandJ]

You know, I'm think I'm just better off dropping this here and now, and when I get the time to rebuild the DE and table I'll post a few pictures for anyone who may be interested.
I now realise that my attempt to describe what I was testing without corresponding photos or drawings was confusing, so apologies to all for that :doh:

In parting, I know that manufactures can do DE in a far better way, and I'm under no illusion that anything that I / we could come up with hasn't been thought of years ago, of course it has, but just like bandsaw dust extraction, manufactures are constrained by costs and the way current designs have evolved over the years, and of course the accessories that have evolved around them. More importantly IMHO, there is the willingness of customers to pay for something that most could, in reality, care less about.

EDIT - I really should clarify that last bit - I'm talking about the average consumer here, not those of us keen enough to join a forum and certainly not anyone on this forum :)

[Lappa]

If the rings are covered by the material being machined then there can be no air
The only time I see that happening is if you are boring a hole or running a stopped dado but I can see your logic. When I look at the tasks I do on a router table, the majority do not have the router bit totally clear of the fence therefore the ring is not totally covered.



and if partially covered then less air flow of course no matter how the ring inserts are designed.

From my observations when using the Cleansweep inserts, partially covered, they will allow more air flow than my standard Kreg inserts due to the extra air vents

[Chris Parks]

I wonder how a gridded top surface would go? Dados would be open to the DE and would solve that problem. The grid would only have to be in a specific small are to be effective.

[Lappa]

I wonder how a gridded top surface would go? Dados would be open to the DE and would solve that problem. The grid would only have to be in a specific small are to be effective.

Good point. Also, if you had a cabinet space below connected to a DE, what about holes in the table surface or could that catch the edges of the job being routed?
I suppose it all hinges in the size of the chips really.

I use this on the end of my table when cutting box joints, dados etc. It connects to a VC.

403434

With dados, the dado channel tends to clog up with the chips though:(

The openings can be changed in size and location by utilising cut pipe sections that fit over the pipe section

403433

It it can be rotated to lie flat with the table surface. It sort of works - better than nothing I suppose but I'm sure there is a better way.

[spokeshave]

Hi all.

So with all this talk of effective dust extraction, I thought I would share my experience.

I have had my router table for a while now and am pretty happy with it's under table extraction. It was not designed with any pre-conceived ideas or plans, just made on the go.

Two days ago I used it for over an hour sizing, rebating, grooving and chamfering quite a few pieces of different types of wood. In that hour i'm guessing the router was operating for maybe 60%-70% of that time and shed temp was in the low 30deg C. It is hooked up to a 2hp dusty (directly with no other tools connected). I'll admit that there was some chips left on top of the table but as you can see in the pic below, the router box was left pretty clean with some dust around the plastic router shrouds and some on the dust port opening. Also the router itself was only warm to the touch. With my old router table (including very poor under table extraction) the router would have been left quite hot after such a work out.

When I first made the table there was quite a bit of dust left underneath so I drilled a series of 4 holes along the bottom of the cabinet door (around 30mm round) and that improved the extraction no end (you can just see one in the pic). Again this was all done on the fly, so i'm guessing the positioning of the dust outlet port and inlet holes on the door opposite create cross flow pulling the dust out of the cabinet. having the router just above the outlet would help cooling. With the dusty on, the door is difficult to open due to the suction.

I use a Woodpecker Aluminium plate and use an insert ring only big enough for the router bit to fit through. Maybe using an insert ring with a bigger hole would improve above the table performance.

I realise what works for me doesn't necessarily suite someone else but I just thought I'd share this to add to the conversation.

Steven.

[barri]

Steven, do you have any dust extraction on your fence? I can't imagine that doing edge profiling using only 2 HP extraction below the table would leave little dust above the table. If it does then that's brilliant. So it actually performs like the cleansweep. I have no dust doing edge work but dados are a problem.

[spokeshave]

Steven, do you have any dust extraction on your fence? I can't imagine that doing edge profiling using only 2 HP extraction below the table would leave little dust above the table. If it does then that's brilliant. So it actually performs like the cleansweep. I have no dust doing edge work but dados are a problem.

Hi barri,

Yes I do have dust extraction at the fence.

At the moment it only has 2" hose to the fence. It is a carry over component from my old router table and I had intentions at the time to upgrade to larger diameter pipe but it's one of those 'gunna' jobs that never gets done. It has suction up there but not as much as I would like to have.

It's something I would like to improve on my table.

Steven.

[safari]

I built my router table not long after the Cleensweep became available in Australia so I thought I would give it a go.

I reckon that air intake is insufficient through the insert ring if the Cleensweep is mounted directly to the underside of the table so I mounted it to the table using spacers to leave a gap all around the top of the Clearview. I am not convinced that the under table hose needs to be higher up because I think that there is now enough air bypassing the Triton that no dust is left in the Clearview. I also use a 4" hose on the fence and after testing I added a third 4" pipe above the feedout side to take care of dust when cutting a dado. All this get rid of virtually all dust. I am lucky to have a Cleaview so that I can run three 4" pipes.

All in all it's a thumbs up for the Cleansweep.

[Lappa]

Any chance of a photo of your set-up safari? My set up for dados needs improvement.
Cheers

[safari]

Sorry Lappa, I have just moved house and all my gear is still in storage. It will be a couple of months before the new workshop is built because there is a fair bit do do on the house first.

[doug3030]

I built my router table not long after the Cleensweep became available in Australia so I thought I would give it a go.

I reckon that air intake is insufficient through the insert ring if the Cleensweep is mounted directly to the underside of the table so I mounted it to the table using spacers to leave a gap all around the top of the Clearview. I am not convinced that the under table hose needs to be higher up because I think that there is now enough air bypassing the Triton that no dust is left in the Clearview. I also use a 4" hose on the fence and after testing I added a third 4" pipe above the feedout side to take care of dust when cutting a dado. All this get rid of virtually all dust. I am lucky to have a Cleaview so that I can run three 4" pipes.

All in all it's a thumbs up for the Cleansweep.

Safari, I think you might have used the work "Clearview" twice when you meant "Cleansweep"

[Lappa]

Not a problem Safari. Good luck with the move.

[safari]

Thanks Doug, you are right. The first Clearview should read Cleansweep.

[Lappa]

Steven,
What size is the hose at the rear of your router table.? I'm tossing up whether to use the 125mm hose and blast gate that I already have available or buy another 150mm fitting and blast gate.

Cheers - Peter

[spokeshave]

Steven,
What size is the hose at the rear of your router table.? I'm tossing up whether to use the 125mm hose and blast gate that I already have available or buy another 150mm fitting and blast gate.

Cheers - Peter

Hi Peter.

I use standard 4" (100mm) hose to connect my dusty to my router table.

But I must stress I connect my router table directly to my 2hp dusty with 2m of hose with no other tools attached, no blast gates, no ducting, just the router table. Unfortunately my workshop is a single car garage that is also used to house a car, everything gets packed away after use. So any tool that requires the use of the dusty (ie. table saw, thicknesser, router table) must be moved into position, used, then packed away when done. A major PIA but that's my lot.

So, my point is that 100mm works well for me because my table is connected close to the DE and is the only tool in use at that time.

Sorry for the long winded explanation to a simple question, but I thought I needed to clarify.

Steven.

[barri]

Thanks Doug, you are right. The first Clearview should read Cleansweep.


I'm interested in what router you use in the cleansweep and does it get hot?

[Lappa]

Thanks for the reply. I'm also working in cramped conditions. My shed holds all the household paints, tents etc etc.
I think I'll stay with the 125mm and see how that goes. Are you using a separate line for the fence or feeding that into the 100mm as well? At the moment I've got my fence connected to a separate 50mm line and VC and was wondering whether to leave it or try and integrate it with the 125mm table hose connection.

[spokeshave]

Thanks for the reply. I'm also working in cramped conditions. My shed holds all the household paints, tents etc etc.
I think I'll stay with the 125mm and see how that goes. Are you using a separate line for the fence or feeding that into the 100mm as well? At the moment I've got my fence connected to a separate 50mm line and VC and was wondering whether to leave it or try and integrate it with the 125mm table hose connection.

Yeah, the fence uses a hose that is tapped into the main line.

There is a pic in post #64 where you can see the fence hose but you cant really see where it connects to the 100mm line at the back of the table. It works ok but a seperate line to the dusty for the fence would certainly improve dust removal above the table.

Steven.

[safari]

Hi Barri, I have a large Triton that does not get too hot because I did not attach the cleensweep directly to the underside of the table but spaced it away from the table so the the airflow over the router is much better. This also makes the dust collection better.