Question about Dust Extractor setup in double garage/shed?

[BrettC]

Hi All,
This is my first post, just been having fun reading but I bought a Carbatec FM300 (2hp - 1200 cfm) Dust Extractor and the accessory pack (hoses, blast gates etc..) at the Canberra working with Wood show on the week-end. I have it set up at one side of a double garage hooked up to a jointer & a thicknesser. I want to leave it there permanently and my plan is to: Run 100mm PVC pipe up the wall over the ceiling, down to waist high and then a horizontal run with another few (two?) flexible pipe outlets for my tools on the other side i.e. table saw, router table, mitre saw etc.. My questions are:
- Should I use 100mm for all the run (I've heard a larger diameter over the ceiling might help)?
- Should I go for the metal (Lee Valley) blast gates because I've read the plastic ones are no good?
- Should I run a wheely bin/dust bin to protect the unit and take the larger shavings?
- Will I have enough power at the furthest tool?

Yep, a few questions but why try to reinvent the wheel? Any opinions appreciated,

Cheers.

[MikeThePom]

BrettC,
I have a workshop set up in a double garage. It has TS250 table saw, 14 inch bandsaw, planer thicknesser, linisher, wide drum sander and 2 router tables. The dust collector is set up in one corner and then I have a 90mm stormwater run down the middle of the workshop (front to back) directly to the table saw and bandsaw and then 2 side branches to go to the machines on each side. There are 100mm to 90mm adapters, from Reece plumbing [there are 2 types with mine the 100mm flexible fits over the adapter and the 90mm goes inside it], as the large bits of equipment are on 100mm flexible pipe and also 100mm flexible from DC to cyclone bucket then flexible to start of 90mm pipe. On the side branches there are a couple of 2.5" reductions with home made blast gates for connection to router tables / hand held sander etc.

Touch wood all seems to have been running well for the last year or so. I did invest in a couple of extra bags for the DC so that I can take off the old ones and wash them from time to time. MDF dust plays merry hell with them. The suction drops rapidly when the cloth bags get clogged. My cyclone only gets 90% of the dust.

Regards

Mike

[outback]

Hi Brett, welcome to the mad house. As you've been a good boy and done a search, you'll have gathered I'm also buying an Fm 300. I've been looking at all of the issues you have raised. So on with my thougts.

1. Is there any reason you can't run 125mm or even 150 mm PVC around the wall at waist height? It gives you the option of being able to "cut in" at a later date if you change your shed layout.

2. I think I'll have ago at making blast gates, failing that, I'll probably opt for the LV ones Wongo has. There are heaps of ideas, links etc here to keep me out of trouble for a while.

3. Read Bill Pentz's site, he is the guru of dust. After that if your'e game to go back in the shed, you'll probably opt for a cyclone, or achip collector and better bags, filtration setup. MAybe you can house the Dc outside in a lean to.

4. Dunno, I hope so, depends on total length of ducting, machine to which DC is hooked etc. Again read Bill's site.

[Gumby]

Hi Brett.

here's some photos of my setup. I'm certainly no expert and got most of what i know from the guys in here but this is simple and in a garage like you have. I have to run flex hose down from the ceiling so that i can move things around like the DC itself, when i need access through the rear door. It's just the flex hose from the kit, a couple of 90 degfree elbows, a few meters of pipe in the ceiling and some duct tape. The bin as a separater helps but I think it does have an effect on the suction power. So does running it vertically from the 2 machines I have (TS and Jointer). I have 2 blast gates and only have one open at a time, depending on which machine I'm using. It's by no means perfect but for a weekend hacker like me, it works, so it'll do.

Cheers, and welcome to the forums. ;)

[MajorPanic]

Hey Gumby,

Since getting the big sucker (3100CFM DC) I've realised I was restricting the air flow to my 1200CFM DC by blocking off the other DC inlet for ALL the years I owned it. http://www.ubeaut.biz/crying.gif

Do yerself a favour, go & buy a 'Y' junction & convert the 2 inlets on the DC into 1! You will increase the suck yer sucker can give... :D ;)

[Gumby]

Hey Gumby,

Since getting the big sucker (3100CFM DC) I've realised I was restricting the air flow to my 1200CFM DC by blocking off the other DC inlet for ALL the years I owned it. http://www.ubeaut.biz/crying.gif

Do yerself a favour, go & buy a 'Y' junction & convert the 2 inlets on the DC into 1! You will increase the suck yer sucker can give... :D ;)



Thanks Major but you've confused me a tad. The 'Y' junction is on the DC and another where I split the 2 machines. Do you mean get the one off the machine an run the hose straight in ?

[MajorPanic]

Hang on I'll go & take a photo................

Back now, as you can see it's pretty simple but the results speak for themselves. ;) :D

[outback]

Ok, so for us poor sods without a sucker that'd pull the chrome off ya next door neighbours tow ball, you're suggesting take off the Y and go straight in.

[Gumby]

I hope I'm getting this right but are you saying that if i get one more 'Y' and put it between the bin and the DC, run a second pipe in that to the other outlet on the 'Y' connector on the DC, it will be better.

In effect I'm doubling the hose between the bin and DC. :confused:

(sorry if this sound confused but i'm not 100% sure what you mean).

(I only have the machines to connect)

[BrettC]

Thanks for the replies, think I can probably explore a few options here - nothin better than looking at other set-ups for inspiration.

Cheers.

[MajorPanic]

Ok, so for us poor sods without a sucker that'd pull the chrome off ya next door neighbours tow ball, you're suggesting take off the Y and go straight in.


I hope I'm getting this right but are you saying that if i get one more 'Y' and put it between the bin and the DC, run a second pipe in that to the other outlet on the 'Y' connector on the DC, it will be better.

In effect I'm doubling the hose between the bin and DC. :confused:

(sorry if this sound confused but i'm not 100% sure what you mean).

(I only have the machines to connect)

OK guys,

I've edited the picture........ have another look :D

[Gumby]

OK guys,

I've edited the picture........ have another look :D


OK, seems I had it right. Another 'Y' connector and run 2 hoses into the machine.

Thanks mate ;)

[outback]

Yeh thanks Major, I get it now. I didn't think it would make that much difference, ya live and learn.

[MajorPanic]

OK, seems I had it right. Another 'Y' connector and run 2 hoses into the machine.

Thanks mate ;)

Too the machine or the DC??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[MajorPanic]

Yeh thanks Major, I get it now. I didn't think it would make that much difference, ya live and learn.

I only noticed when I got the big sucker, if I blocked off 2 of the 4 inlets there was scarcely any suction.
I did an experiment with the 2hp (1200CFM) machine by adding the 'Y' & it REALLY helped. To say I was browned off was an understatement, I have owned for quite a few years & I was only getting a percentage of the volume out of it!! :( :(

[BrettC]

Okay, think I'll give this a try on my 1200 cfm - use the two outlets but Y junction them back into 1 before I go into the separater that I'll put together (similar to Gumby's setup I suppose). Will see how I go, might post some pics when done. You blokes weren't wrong the Bill Pentz site has more than what you need on it.

[Waldo]

G'day,

Seeing as this is a Dusty topic, I thought I'd post here.

I wondered what a Big Gulp Chute would be like hooked up beneath my dropsaw - well I tried it today once I hooked it up and even though it has a large mouth it sucks up beauifully!

It's alive!

Should have the rest of the Dusty connected by Friday, I'll get some photos taken of the whole shebang and start a new thread for a gander for all you perves out there. :D

[Harry72]

Wouldnt it be better for Gumb to just enlarge the pipe between the dusty and the bin, 1 run of 150mm flows better than 2 runs of 100mm(does'nt it???). Still be restricted by the single 100mm inlet on the bin tho.

[Gumby]

Still be restricted by the single 100mm inlet on the bin tho.

That was my thought too. Maybe worth a try though.

[outback]

I'm wondering about ripping off the Y at the Dc, and replacing with even a short section of 125mm pipe. In your case Gumby, the piese going into the bin.

I think the point Major makes is that the biggest restriction is right at the fan/impeller/motor inlet. There ain't enough area to let the sucker suck at its full potential. What he has discovered on these units is opening it all up and allowing the wind to flow really makes a difference.

Just quickly working it out in my head, 2 X 100mm inlets have a poofteenth more volume than 1 X 125 mm inlet, but you also have more surface area on the pipe to create more drag there, so maybe no or little gain.

[Waldo]

G'day,

Just last night I glued 2 blast gates to 45º joiners at the Y piece, but am interested to see if Major's idea has an increased benefit - but like Gumby, it has me confused.

Always open to better ideas and ways to improve things.

[Bodgy]

I have run around 600mm of 125mm gal flue pipe from d/c (in outhouse) thru to workshop. This terminates in the Y fitting, bifurcating to 2 x the supplied 100mm flex pipe. One to the supplied plastic 100mm 'gathering' plate(s) fitted to the machine(s) and the other to the machines dust port - anything from 30mm to 60mm via bodgied up hole saw chipboard reducers.

One point of interest is that I will constantly be changing machines and hence dust extractor hose positioning. Couple of magnets glued in a block of wood with a cuphook on opposite side holding a 100mm surclip around the 100mm flex duct allows you to instantly route the hose around the shed roof. The magnet block(s) is just stuck on the roof/wall (steel) anywhere you like, keeping this enormous and intrusive ducting right out of the way.

Haven't finished all the set up yet and will post results next week when all is firing. Early impressions say that fitting the supplied filter bag (2HP Sherwood d/c) instantly cuts the airflow substantially - even when pristine and with no fine dust build-up. Adding the 100mm flex duct (2 @ 3 metres) cuts down even more. First will be solved by cyclone addition and direct outside venting. Second flex issue seems unsolvable, as I do not have space for permanent smooth, large bore duct reticulation.

Also noted, as predicted, the supplied filter bag does not trap all the fine dust, apparent even with the limited testing so far. Once again a cyclone seperator should fix this.

To reinforce another well made point, the grid at the d/c inlet gotta go. Like an idiot I 'permanently' attached the ducting to the d/c, forgetting all the advice. 5 minutes later the things hardly sucking (I'll refrain from simile here) and I'm dismantling my perfect join, finding a few wood shavings have 60% occluded the grid.

[zenwood]

Major:

Do the two lines that go to machines end up at a single machine, or do you close one off with a blast gate? If the latter, have you ever tried adding yet one more Y to double up the input to the empeller? You might get even more suction.

[Waldo]

G'day Zenwood,

For whatever reason, your attachment shows as a crossed out red square.

[Bodgy]

Thinking about the Major's discovery, which I think is also endorsed by Bill Pentz, I wonder if the restriction in air volume at the d/c impellor is causing a vaccum and the impellor loses it's efficiency. Somewhat like cavitation around a boat's propellor.

The Major (time for a promotion I think) has delivered more air and hence decreased the vaccum and the impellor works better. True, the vaccum must still exist, in fact due to the increased airflow is increased, but is transferred down the flex duct where it can equalise and where it doesn't cause as much disruption to efficiency. The severe air vaccuum can now disipate in the increased capacity provided by the additional Y duct, before it reaches and stuffs up the impellor.

It seems another blow to efficiency to use the flex duct. The internal ribbing will cause additional turbulence and create vortices, again slowing air throughtput. Smooth, big diameter duct with gentle curves not 90 dgr bends is the go.

It would be great, and helpful, if anyone who knows the first thing about aerodynamics (unlike me) could comment.

Incidentally Major, sorry, Colonel the thing that is confusing about your piccy and post is that the rest of us slobs, being $$ challenged, thought all d/cs came with but a single inlet.

[Harry72]

Bodge I think you are right the smoother the air hitting the inlet on the fan the better, the "vortices" you speak of are called "eddie currents" I think(correct me if Im wrong?)
I know with mine earlier I had it hooked up using the supplied tripple inlet thingo'bob using 2 of the 3 offtakes and 2 runs of 102mm pvc, then after hooking it up in the current configuiration having a long lenght of 150mm pvc with only 2x 90° bends the flow with 2 gates open(both 102mm) is heaps more as its collecting all dust from my buzzer now, it didnt before with one or 2 ducts open!

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Methinks Bodge & Harry are on the right path here, as although the ductwork is doubled for a short length it's still restricted after the 2nd Wye and it's the restrictions that determine max airflow.

But with the Wye immediately in front of the impeller, if one is blocked off I imagine there'd be both an eddy effect and a slowing down of air due to the venturi effect. This is all right at the intake to the impeller! :eek: Of course, adding the 2nd duct removes both possible problems, but...

I'm wondering: if one removed the Wye from the intake, substituted a srigid piece of PVC and remounted the Wye a foot or two away to ensure a smooth airflow directly into the impeller, would it show the same improvement?

I'm only going by my experiences with carbies, triple-strombies have a similar problem but backwards. :) It tempts me to try, anyway... by my reasoning it should, and with less mess.

[himzol]

No comment.. just want to keep tabs on this thread,

Himzo.

[Harry72]

Skew Im pretty sure it'll make a differance, BP recomends on his site that the inlet duct to a cyclone should be a certain lenght to smooth out the air flow, so probaly getting the wye's far as possible away from the impellor the better. On mine the 1st offtake/dropper would be about 4m of 150mm pipe from the impellor.

Tripple CD stromies eh... must like the ol XU1's, one of my fav cars!(72 LJ the best... was good year!)
That prob was solved with the redline manifold, or match portin the original was a fix, a good 10-20hp gain depending on how bad the castings were!

[DPB]

Thanks for totally confusing me guys! Where's Wayne Davie when we need him?????:confused: ?????

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Skew Im pretty sure it'll make a differance, BP recomends on his site that the inlet duct to a cyclone should be a certain lenght to smooth out the air flow, so probaly getting the wye's far as possible away from the impellor the better. On mine the 1st offtake/dropper would be about 4m of 150mm pipe from the impellor.

I'd originally planned on leaving the Wye on the impeller with one port capped off for easy access to clean the intake grille, but this thread has had me doing some major rethinking. As I want to install a seperator, the grille should be less of a concern and a simple straight run between the two will hopefully maximise the airflow. [fingers Xed]


Tripple CD stromies eh... must like the ol XU1's, one of my fav cars!(72 LJ the best... was good year!) That prob was solved with the redline manifold, or match portin the original was a fix, a good 10-20hp gain depending on how bad the castings were!

The triples came from an LJ that'd seen a 'phone pole up close. Slapped onto a 186 in an EK panel van after I siezed the ol' grey motor. Lot of major mods there, fitting a red frontend! :rolleyes: With a yellaterra head porting wasn't a problem, but I made my own manifold with 4" risers. That took some headwork, matching one end to the ports and the other to the carbs with a smooth flow. The carbies ended up poking some 2" thru the bonnet. Real head-turner, went like the clappers... and handled like a brick!

Ahhh.... fond memories of when I was young and stupid(er) :D

[Harry72]

Yep that'll probarly be better having a single straight run from the separator to the dusty.

Whats confusing DPB?



The triples came from an LJ that'd seen a 'phone pole up close.
Oh yeah I know that feeling... was out crusing with a mate in his LJ doing about 80km/h he lent over to play with the stereo(mounted under the passenger side dash)pulled the steering wheel with him... we hit the gutter I looked up and seen the stobbie about 6" from the tip of the bonnet... no time for brakes! Head lights were facing each other, the car had to be cut off the stobbie. My knee's went through the metal dash with no damage to me, but the funny thing was he popped the windscreen out with his head which then bounced off the stobbie without breaking!

[MajorPanic]

Major:

Do the two lines that go to machines end up at a single machine, or do you close one off with a blast gate? If the latter, have you ever tried adding yet one more Y to double up the input to the empeller? You might get even more suction.

Hey Zenwood,

Sorry I haven't kept an eye on this thread as I've been busy.

This is the setup I use...........

http://www.majorpanic.com/images/woodwork/BB/4-way-y-junction.jpg

[HiString]

Off the DC topic but what the heck :D ...........it was popular opinion that the LC XU-1 with it's 186/triple CD-150 carbs was actually a better configuration than the LJ's 202/CD-175 carbies. I had an LC and a mate had an LJ and we could never see a huge difference between them.

Selling that car was also one of the silly decisions I have made :rolleyes: .

:cool:

[Harry72]

Apparntly the 150's slide needles were a better shape, later they modded the 175's to the same shape.
Well thats what I've heard/read?(prob wrong tho)
What do you mean by see the difference between them, the throat size is the major difference visualy they are identical(thats till you get them next to each other)... the difference between the LC and LJ was a little more Hp but a ****load more torque, as the old saying goes "cubes rule".

[HiString]

What do you mean by see the difference between them

Sorry Harry, I was refering to the average street performance as we experienced it back in '72.

:cool: