Treating wood dust allergy problems

[Phily]

I'd had a few long days in the shed but despite the use of extractors and a 3m respirator I still managed to inhale enough dust to trigger a serious bought of sinusitis and breathing problems. After several nights of crap sleep I went to the local pharmacist for some anti histimines. He asked what the problem was then gave some great advice on how to address the problem long term.

i'm passing on his advice here as I believe Others may also find it useful. However I am not a medic so if you are suffering problems please regard the following as only being a guide for discussion with your own medical adviser.

The pharmacist advised that the dust (allergen) causes the body to create Mast Cells as part of its immune response to irritants. These cells build up in the sinus cavities and when there is further exposure to the allergen, they release histamines. The histamines cause allergy symptoms such as congestion, sneezing, runny nose etc.

So the trick is to both remove the existing Mast Cells and prevent further Mast cells from being produced.

His suggested approach is as follows:


First off, the obvious - take all steps to avoid exposure. Enough said.
Secondly, after finishing in the shed use a saline flush to thoroughly wash out any dust from your sinuses. This has to be done Every time you have been exposed to dust.
Thirdly, use a mild nasal steroid spray such as Sensease Every night for at least 6 weeks.

The spray is an anti inflamitory and so helps open up the passages, it takes 4 to 6 weeks for full effect. Opening the passages aids the flushing. If you are seriously blocked it may be necessary to use Otrivin or similar to open up the passages for the first few flushes.

By flushing out the dust allergen and using the spray your body should reduce its Mast Cell production. Over time, the Mast Cells in the cavities will die off, histamine production will be reduced and thus the allergic reactions will be less severe (and may even disappear).

Note, this is not a cure, its a way of reducing the allergic reaction. Flushing after shedding will have to become a standard routine.

I'm not sure how to apply the same approach to lung congestion problems without side effects such as drowning.

Perhaps our more medically inclined members clarify anything I have said.

Hope this helps.
Cheers
Phil

[BobL]

Sorry to hear about your allergy?

I remember doing the sinus rinse thing when I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks in 2002, most unpleasant.
It's not something I've had to so since and would not want to be doing even on a irregular basis.

What sort of respirators and extractors are you working with?

[Phily]

Sorry to hear about your allergy?

I remember doing the sinus rinse thing when I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks in 2002, most unpleasant.
It's not something I've had to so since and would not want to be doing even on a irregular basis.

What sort of respirators and extractors are you working with?

Hi Bob, I agree, its not particularly pleasant, though far far better than lying in bed trying to sleep but can't because my mouth is so dry from not being able to breath through my nostrils for the past 3 days, not to mention the amount of chemicals used to counteract the symptoms.

I have 3 extractors in my workshop: a 1hp and a 2hp both ducted around my lathe plus a fine particle filter near ceiling height. I also leave the shed door (large) open most of the time - even when not in there, and have placed my lathe near the door. A few months back I upgraded from a Trend to a 3M respirator with hood and an Adflo filter.

I only need exposure to a small amount of dust to cause a flair up and drugs are only so effective. Actually, I really don't enjoy flushing, but I enjoy sleeping and being able to taste red wine a whole lot more!!:U

[BobL]

Hi Bob, I agree, its not particularly pleasant, though far far better than lying in bed trying to sleep but can't because my mouth is so dry from not being able to breath through my nostrils for the past 3 days, not to mention the amount of chemicals used to counteract the symptoms.

I agree. In my case it was MDF sanding outside that did the deed. I don't really know if the sinus rinse helped in my case. I was not experiencing breathing difficulties but I did it for a couple of weeks and then stopped - 4 weeks later my senses of smell started to return. I was amazed to see how the lack of a sense of smell affected taste. For example I could eat an onion no problem. Most food and drinks tasted ordinary to terrible. Beer tasted like dishwater. What it did was trigger me to do something about wood dust in my shed although it did take some time to fully get my act together on it.


I have 3 extractors in my workshop: a 1hp and a 2hp both ducted around my lathe plus a fine particle filter near ceiling height. I also leave the shed door (large) open most of the time - even when not in there, and have placed my lathe near the door. A few months back I upgraded from a Trend to a 3M respirator with hood and an Adflo filter.

Do you have your DCs outside or enclosed in an airtight enclosure that is vented outside?
If not you those DCs will simply be recirculating fine dust throughout your shed.
Sorry to be blunt but the filters on most DCs are not worth a row of beans.
In addition all of the DCs I have tested leak and some DCs make more fine dust than they pick up, and it's the very fine dust that causes allergies and other problems.
Room air filters are OK for very light work like hand tools but they are cannot cope with the volume of dust generated by something like turning.
The best thing they are good for is clearing a small space of fine dust over several hours so that fine finishes can be applied in a dust free environment.



I only need exposure to a small amount of dust to cause a flair up and drugs are only so effective. Actually, I really don't enjoy flushing, but I enjoy sleeping and being able to taste red wine a whole lot more!!:U

Well its good that you can get some sleep.

You probably know most or all of this but just in case new turners are reading this thread.

Wood turners are amongst the woodworkers with the greatest exposure to wood dust and your situation highlights their problem.

What it sounds like is is your shed is constantly bathed in fine invisible dust and unless you wear your respirator at all times in the shed and keep wearing it until you remove your clothes and have a shower you will be continually exposed to fine dust. The amount of fine dust that settles ON and INSIDE clothing is usually enough to trigger an allergy.

The only way to be sure to keep the dust off your clothes it to fully extract the fine dust at source. This requires large volumes of air be move that standard 1 and 2HP DCs are more really capable of moving.
A 3HP or more DC with 6" ducting all the way (including through the DC impeller) and put the DC outside or enclose the DC in an air tight enclosure inside the shed and vent the enclosure outside the shed.

At the lathe, dust collection can be enhanced by using a Bell Mouth Hood as shown below.
Its performance in collecting dust is substantially better than a naked duct end or a rectangular hood.
I have tested all my setups with a dust particle counter which can detect minuscule amounts of dust in air.
For example it can easy detect the increase in external dust from an increase in traffic at peak periods on a reasonably major road about 300 m from my house.
This means the best time for testing is early Sunday mornings or Monday mornings of weekends.

My dust extraction setup is effective enough so that I can turn without a mask or respirator and not be exposed to any fine dust at operator head height. It's not a complete sawdust collection solution as there are heaps of chips all over the bench and floor but the chips wont hurt you like the fine dust will.


408447

[Phily]

Spot on Bob, when beer starts tasting like dishwashing liquid its time to take action!!!:oo:

And also spot on, I wrote the post with beginners in mind. The issue for me began in my previous shed where ignorance and a " won't happen to me" attitude resulted in a very inadequate dust extraction environment. But it did happen to me.

The 1hp and 2hp extractors are external. I made a dust deputy that is very effective in collecting dust/shavings and is far easier to empty than the extractor bags (and far less dusty). But even this attention to detail doesn't make up for the poor attitude I had when first taking up turning. Yes, BIG kick up the bum message for any turners with a lax attitude - unless of course you like the idea of your beer tasting like dishwashing liquid!!!

[BobL]

The 1hp and 2hp extractors are external.

Good to hear.

You might like to see this post http://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/improving-machine-cabinet-dust-ports-187936/10#post2012675

[MandJ]

Hi, just wondering what device you use to flush your sinus? I won't go into details but for a time I was having to do that 4 to 5 times a day. For the past few years, and now forever, I am supposed to flush twice a week with a special ingredient added to the saline solution. My reason for asking is that I find it a total simple quick task and not the slightest bit unpleasant in any way, it's just remembering to do it twice a week that's the hard part for me, again just wanting to share or help in case you are doing this a different way that makes it unpleasant.

[charlesfreeborn]

Neil Med sinus rinse for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Phily]

Hi, just wondering what device you use to flush your sinus? I won't go into details but for a time I was having to do that 4 to 5 times a day. For the past few years, and now forever, I am supposed to flush twice a week with a special ingredient added to the saline solution. My reason for asking is that I find it a total simple quick task and not the slightest bit unpleasant in any way, it's just remembering to do it twice a week that's the hard part for me, again just wanting to share or help in case you are doing this a different way that makes it unpleasant.

I just use the Flo system. Its easy enough - its more that I haven't got used to the sensation of filling up my sinuses with water. It feels weird! Hopefully like yourself I'll get used to it!!

[Phily]

Good to hear.

You might like to see this post http://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/improving-machine-cabinet-dust-ports-187936/10#post2012675

Thanks Bob, that's a pretty impressive demo of the benefit of using a BM!

[Gassy]

BobL, have you documented your DC system somewhere? Is it a standard 3HP DC? I'm yet to install one but I do turn in an area without walls right now, but that will change very soon and I need to get something effective installed.

Oh look, an entire forum on it! http://www.woodworkforums.com/f200

[BobL]

BobL, have you documented your DC system somewhere? Is it a standard 3HP DC? I'm yet to install one but I do turn in an area without walls right now, but that will change very soon and I need to get something effective installed.

Oh look, an entire forum on it! http://www.woodworkforums.com/f200


Yes you will find more than you need in that forum.
There's nothing special about my DC It's a Carbatech 3HP twin bag setup.
It's outside my shed on an outer wall opposite where the major opening/doorway is into my shed.
I threw away the silly 4" connectors that came with the DC and plumbed my shed with 6" ducting.
To operate efficiently a 3HP is restricted to about 6m runs of 6" ducting - if you need to go longer you will ned more than a 3HP DC.
Most of my machines have bell mouth hood to collect the dust and having access to a particle counter and flow gear I can test everything is working correctly.

To maintain flow on a filtered DC you MUST keep the filters clean.
If you are not keen on cleaning filters then a well designed cyclone can avoid using filters completely provided the DC is located or vented outside.
By a well designed cyclone I don't mean a dust deputy or most commercially available cyclones - these are old designs and are just too inefficient and slow down the ar flow more than clean filters do.
If you keep the filters clean you will have better flow than using most cyclones.
Only the Bill Pentz or similarly designed cyclones have minimal restrictions but even they they require a 4HP or bigger motor and large impeller to work properly.
Of course these also work on much longer ducting runs and some are able to cope with multiple machines being used simultaneously

[hughie]

I am at the moment one of the lucky ones who has no allergies to any wood dust. But I would like to keep it that way so I tend to go over board with masks and p2 is the minimum.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/473936O/respiratory-protection-basic-information.pdf

What I find is that extraction to the outside world work well for me. I cought a comment by Richard Raffan a few years back about mounting a 1m fan in the wall at ground level and vent to the outside , always have it when you use the lathe.

I have a longish narrow shed with a pedestrian door at one and the lathe at the other with two 50cm fans blowing toward the door. Later I will be fitting a whirly bird vent just above the lathe and place another fan in it as well.

[Chris Parks]

If I was turning on a lathe I would have a big duct made from something like concrete pier former tube with the biggest exhaust fan I could get into it and exhausting outside. Either that or duct could be made out of 3mm MDF quite easily to suit the fan used. You need to move LOTS of air and none of it holds any dust that has to be caught or filtered. I am sure Bob will further comment so I won't have to add any more. Two ducts and fans would be better, I would want to feel a breeze as the air was pulled past me into the ducts.

[BobL]

Shed size and shape is very important when trying to control dust by ventilation.

A long narrow shed with a large ventilation fan at one end to suck the dust out of the shed and a large opening is a useful lay out.
However, having the fan at ground level means it may not clear the dust that spins of and rises above this level and it's good to hear you are considering some roof line extraction.
The generation of wood dust usually involves some friction and heat - this means convection currents quickly carry fine dust up into the ceiling space of a shed where it can be distributed all around the shed so having something that extracts dust at the roof line makes a lot of sense.

In the case of dust, sucking is always more efficient that blowing.
Using fans to push unconstrained air is like herding cats - the air usually goes about a metre or two at most and then just doubles back on itself, in other words their effect will be minimal.
Using fans to push X CFM of air towards a door and another fan to pull Y CFM will still only result in not much more than Y CFM though the shed.

Whirlybirds are better than nothing on small sheds but even when there is wind available to drive them they are relatively inefficient at moving a lot of air.
Despite claims made to the contrary, the budget levels Whirlybirds available at the big hardware stores only move about 100 CFM in a moderate breeze and about 150 CFM in a strong wind.
While this is enough to remove hot air from a shed it will not keep up with the dust levels generated in a wood working shed and especially when turning.
Bigger Whirlybirds do move more air but cost correspondingly more and there is a point at which it's more cost effective to install forced ventilation

It would be better to put the 50 cm fans at same end of the shed as the big 1m diameter fan but higher up in the roof line. Then you would have all the fans operating at sucking dust.

In my L-shaped shed I have a 1600 cfm squirrel cage fan at the metal working end in my welding/grinding/spray painting booth. In the middle of and at the highest pint in the roofline just above my TS/router/lathe and belt sander I have a second squirrel cage fan that draws 1200 CFM. These fans are much quieter and consume much less power than conventional dust extractors and I use them when collection at source is more problematic (routing routing, belt sanding and some turning operations) and just generally for clearing dust from the shed.

Best practice suggests that collection of as much dust as possible at source is the place to start, then ventilation and then of required PPE dust control
Relying on ventilation alone almost certainly means PPE dust control is needed.

[Phily]

A bit of an update on the dust allergy treatment regime. The advice that the pharmacist gave me is some of the best I've ever had. To put into perspective, I was really down in the dumps believing that there was no option but to give up all things wood. A third generation woodie who had through his fathers advice followed a different professional career but couldn't ignore the incessant calling of his dna to return to the woodie fold. Retiring early, wood turning had become a driving passion. I didn't sleep the night before my first exhibition. Making several thousands of dollars from this first show will forever remain one of life's most memorable experiences. It drove me on. I love my shed, away from the house, it sits just under the remains of old growth rain forrest, a quiet retreat to indulge my passion. All about to end because even a few minutes in there could set off a major bought of sinusitis and coughing fits.
Then the advice. Three weeks in and I'm over the moon. In the last week I haven't used my inhaler a single time. I no longer have sinusitis and, critically, I can taste red wine!!! Such a simple and cheap strategy that has given me my woodie life back. Sohh stoked.

[rob streeper]

There have been a number of infections by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naegleria_fowleri in the United States over the past few years. The organism has been found to reside in municipal water systems. This is what the US Centers for Disease Control suggests. Given current trends and policies this problem is going to get worse.

410069410070

[Robson Valley]

I'll pass on ever snorting water, thanks.
Phily, you're not alone. Aquaintence here had mastered western red cedar inlay for creating pictures of our local environment.
The fine dust nearly killed him. Now he restores and recovers old furniture with a reputation spread far and wide.

What was your advice for the sensitivity to wood dust?.

[Phily]

There have been a number of infections by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naegleria_fowleri in the United States over the past few years. The organism has been found to reside in municipal water systems. This is what the US Centers for Disease Control suggests. Given current trends and policies this problem is going to get worse.

410069410070

fortunately we have filtered rainwater that I boil before use. The pharmacist did mention the use of pure water that can be bought quite cheaply from supermarkets. On an aside, it always comes as quite a shock when I have a glass of townwater after being used to rainwater - the townwater tastes like its come out of a chemical factory. I know the chemicals are used to kill the bugs, but wow, the taste ......

[Phily]

I'll pass on ever snorting water, thanks.
Phily, you're not alone. Aquaintence here had mastered western red cedar inlay for creating pictures of our local environment.
The fine dust nearly killed him. Now he restores and recovers old furniture with a reputation spread far and wide.

What was your advice for the sensitivity to wood dust?.

I guess each to their own. For me its far more preferable than giving up being a woodie. I did try and assess if any particular wood was the main allergen. Both camphor and blackwood hit me hard, but basically all timber including oak and pear.

[BobL]

Three weeks in and I'm over the moon. In the last week I haven't used my inhaler a single time. I no longer have sinusitis and, critically, I can taste red wine!!! Such a simple and cheap strategy that has given me my woodie life back. Sohh stoked.

That's really good to hear. Just wondering if you have you done (or considered doing) anything more about capturing the "dust at source" ?

[Phily]

That's really good to hear. Just wondering if you have you done (or considered doing) anything more about capturing the "dust at source" ?

Indeed I have Bob, and my thanks for prompting me to take action. I had been planning to upgrade my belmouth but there always seemed a higher priority. On reading your earlier post I decided to pull my finger out. And I must say, I'm really happy with the outcome. Made from an old Onga water pump and some left over bits and pieces it looks and works a treat.

[Bendigo Bob]

Glad to hear your news Phily.

Just as an addendum, my pharmacist got me to start using that Flo about 8 years back after years of suffering with hayfever, real bad too. It's never been back, not a touch. All those pills, never any use. Salt water up the old hooter - perfect!

So it's my go to if I sense a problem with wood dust.

[BobL]

Indeed I have Bob, and my thanks for prompting me to take action. I had been planning to upgrade my belmouth but there always seemed a higher priority. On reading your earlier post I decided to pull my finger out. And I must say, I'm really happy with the outcome. Made from an old Onga water pump and some left over bits and pieces it looks and works a treat.

Good to hear it seems to be working.

In case you are not aware a Bell Mouth Hood (BMH) does have an optimum profile.
The most efficient shape is a long tapered trumpet like shape but for practical reasons we can rarely have such a shape attached to or behind our WW gear.
The question then becomes what is the shortest most efficient shape.
It turns out to be a very simple profile like this

410115

The real benefit of this profile is the BMH throat can be place close to the source of the dust to collect even more fine dust.


https://youtu.be/xjtHCmR-N3M

Your Onga pump profile shown below, means the throat of the hood cannot be place close to the work.
410116
As you can see from the above vid there is no need for wide wings, just get the BMH close to the source and it will do its job of grabbing the fine dust.
The air speed through the wide wings will be quite slow and so won't grab as much of the fine dust wanting to wander off.
I would suggest cutting away most of the hood and just leave the inner BHM component.

[Phily]

Many thanks Bob, really appreciated. I've actually been playing around with my Onga unit - one of my pet hates is shavings behind the lathe. Always build up and are a pain to remove. I've placed a piece of lino over the bed then curved it into the half cylinder mouth. Its actually very effective at catching the shavings and as it is quite a wide unit, it can be placed pretty close to the work. Not perfect but not a bad compromise either! My thought is to keep the onga as is and make another bell mouth closer in spec to the design you have siggested. Cheers Phil

[BobL]

I try not to let chips mother me too much but I agree about the chips over the back and a piece of curved lino sounds like a good idea and will try that if I can find something.
Last week we finally sold off mums unit and during the last inspection I noticed some pieces of lino in the garage and I was nearly going to take it with me and now I kick myself for not doing this.

[Phily]

Hi Bob, I picked up the cheapest of the cheap lino from Bunnings. Didn't cost much at all and does the job nicely!

[woodPixel]

Just an appropriately cut and curved price of cardboard for behind the lathe, plus BobLs new bell mouthed hood has made a YYUUUGGGGGEEEE difference in woodturning.

The BMH is nothing short of amazing.

The cardboard catches lots of large chunks good for a final hand polishing of the spindle work.

Good advice on the nostril flushing. I've been doing a lot of gardening recently and a couple of the trees have me snotting up like a grizzeling 3 year old. It's unreal how much is generated!!!