big routing job by novice

[bitofascallywag]

goodday all,i have never used a router before and would like some tips as how to go about a big job i need to do.i recently bought an old pile driving barge 40 feet by 20 feet celery deck and huon bottom made with 6x2s,it leaks a wee bit and i am going to turn it into a houseboat to tow around macquarie harbour.so i intend to route through huon pine and whatever caulking they used about 40 years ago to a depth of arond 1/2 inch x 1 inch then glue?(type if you know thanks) pine strips in then a coat of paint and hey presto . so could you suggest easy ways and a type of router to buy as there is about 60 joins 20 feet long.

[Wood Butcher]

Stuff the house boat, scavange the timber and build some really nice furniture with the timber.:D Otherwise I personally have no idea. Are you planning on routing out the bottom upside down. If so get a full face respirator, it will make life a lot more comfortable.

Rowan

[bitofascallywag]

no imagine getting all you blokes in sitting down the bay sucking stubbies,the fun bit will be when i have to sink and flip it,i guess routing will be better than recaulking,imagine scraping 1200 feet of caulking out,suppose i could spline it

[Harry72]

Is the caulking soft? The router will not like it...

[journeyman Mick]

Scallywag,
I've managed (mostly successfully) to stay away from recaulking. I've never heard of a glued in pine strip as an alternative to caulked seams. I'd be pretty wary about doing this unless there's a fairly well documented history of it being successful. When the router bit hits the oakum (stringy hemp stuff) won't it tangle around the router bit and cause problems? Also routers aren't the best tools for long grooves as the waste tends to be packed into the groove as you go and tends to pack around the bit and cause burning. If you do opt for routing I'd use a spiral upcut bit to clear the waste. My tool of choice for this (besides packing a clipboard and supervising :p ) would be a Makita groover. They are still available as far as I know. It's a bit like a big, grunty planer bit with a dado tyoe blade in it.
Have you considered sheathing in Dynel?

Mick

[bitofascallywag]

dynel???what is it worth,how hard and how good is it as im open to suggestions

[journeyman Mick]

Scallywag,
never used Dynel myself, but it's a sheathing cloth specifically for timber hulls. Apparently it gives a tough but flexible sheath that's particularly suitable for the flex inherent in a timber hull. Doesn't add any strength like woven fibreglass, but less likely to delaminate and crack and hold water next to the timber leading to rot.

Mick

[Bodgy]

For my 10 cents worth, I'd look at alternatives. Having had a wooden yacht, you'll find that they always leak, just a question of how much. I guess with a houseboat, it won't encounter heavy seas, so thats on your side. It will still flex a bit (swell, wash etc) Can't see how your plan to glue in timber strips would cope with the constant hull movement.

As has been said, you could sheath, however in my experience that can lead to more problems.

Probably not want you want to hear, but I'd stick with the oakum caulking. When you have her on the slip, you may find that only a few seams need to be re-caulked, particularly 'twist wind and wave' ie around the waterline.

Wooden boats always leak, stern gland, hatches, seams, ports, hawse pipe etc. Wouldn't worry about a bit from the hull. Salt water is not your enemy, fresh is. Salt water sloshing around the bige is good for the timbers (in moderation that is). Sheathing is moderately successful for the deck, however (as pointed out) beware of trapping air and/or rain water which leads to rot. You'll often see delamination or lifting of the sheath too. You got people tramping around on it. Watch out for the babe you bring home from the bar and her high heels!

My experience has been in ocean racing and cruising, so I probably tend to overstate things for your boat in protected waters.

Automatic bilge pumps are wonderful.

Incidentally, how I do envy you!

[RETIRED]

Hmm. I wouldn't call Macquarie Harbour protected waters. :)

[bitofascallywag]

the right places in the harbour are good,farm cove,birch inlet etc,anyway ill talk to me old mates who live round here one of em even cut the timber for her up the gordon.i may just stick to plan one which is fill her up with 1000 l plastic pods throw a couple of bags of salt in now n again and she cant sink

[ian]

goodday all, i recently bought an old pile driving barge 40 feet by 20 feet celery deck and huon bottom made with 6x2s,it leaks a wee bit and i am going to turn it into a houseboat to tow around macquarie harbour. So i intend to route through huon pine and whatever caulking they used about 40 years ago to a depth of arond 1/2 inch x 1 inch then glue? pine strips in then a coat of paint and hey presto . so could you suggest easy ways and a type of router to buy as there is about 60 joins 20 feet long.Apart from suggesting you post this question over on boat building I very strongly suggest you forget about routing out the old chalking and inserting pine strips. Even with modern epoxy glues timber boats are still built with planks attached to a frame with the gap between the timbers filled with chalking. Unless you boat never sees a swell or the wash of another boat, the timbers will flex and if you do as you propose, I'd expect that either the inserted pine strips will rip apart or pull strips off the Huon Pine — the end result being bigger leaks than the ones you're trying to patch.

If you really, really want to avoid rechalking the bottom, I suggest you sell the barge for the Huon Pine it contains and buy one made of welded steel or allie.


ian

[doug the slug]

Even with modern epoxy glues timber boats are still built with planks attached to a frame with the gap between the timbers filled with chalking..............If you really, really want to avoid rechalking the bottom, I suggest you sell the barge for the Huon Pine it contains and buy one made of welded steel or allie.


ian

Sorry Ian, what you are saying goes against all the research ive undertaken for my next project after renovating the house. that is a 12 metre catamaran which will be built from western red cedar strip planking. modern adhesives and construction methods do not require caulking, or chalking for that matter. the epoxy fills in all but major inconsistencies between strip planks and the hull is fibreglassed over inside and out. in effect, the timber planking is no more than the centre of a laminated panel. other construction methods that are about the same strength use balsa or foam sheets as the core for the laminated panels. i have chosen a wooden core for reasons too complex to reiterate here but the other methods are on a par. they dont leak unless they delaminate or separate somehow and can last for many decades if looked after. there is no way i would consider building my catamaran from welded steel, having seen several boats made that way, which you can see the hull bulkheads from the outside because the pounding through the water has bent the outer skin, looks like ribs on a greyhound. i did consider building it out of aluminium alloy till i found out that aluminium can be used as a sacrificial anode for cast iron. why make a boat out of something that subject to corrosion??

[bitofascallywag]

ian,i know the worth of the timber which the barge is built of but some of us in life are either born dumb,or we believe in the old ways,if i keep this barge ticking over for another 40/50 years what will it be worth then,i didnt know at the time but a good friend of my fathers built it and he was a lighthouse keeper when i grew up and his family were earlier piners in the district,we are basically all descended from convicts down this way and some of us believe in keep it in the family so basically i would rather see it go down somewhere in my nineties or heres a better idea have a viking funeral when i go than see it turn into furniture. anyway take it easy and thanks for all the input from you all ps the jugs look good does anyone know of a real set that look similar cause i dont

[ian]

Doug
thanks for the update on modern boat building methods, but call me a traditionalist if you want, I don't consider a boat built of laminated panels to be a timber boat, even if the panel's core is timber.

ian

[doug the slug]

Doug
thanks for the update on modern boat building methods, but call me a traditionalist if you want, I don't consider a boat built of laminated panels to be a timber boat, even if the panel's core is timber.

ian

then you are off the invitation list for the launch, no free prawns and beer for you

i will put you back on th e invite list if you can provide me the names of 5 boatbuilders who have built a chalked timber hull in australia this millennium

[ian]

then you are off the invitation list for the launch, no free prawns and beer for youdamn. and I was going to bring the champagne too — one for the boat and a better one to drink!
i will put you back on th e invite list if you can provide me the names of 5 boatbuilders who have built a chalked timber hull in australia this millenniumbit more difficult, but next time I walk arround to Lavender Bay, I'll get the name of the bloke who works under the railway viaduct, and can I count the three boats under construction at the North West Wooden Boats School?

ian

[journeyman Mick]

Doug
thanks for the update on modern boat building methods, but call me a traditionalist if you want, I don't consider a boat built of laminated panels to be a timber boat, even if the panel's core is timber.

ian

Ian, Doug,
boats built in this manner are considered to be of "composite"construction.

Mick

[bitofascallywag]

george m is on his second within the last 12 years john mc is on his first one peter mc is on his 1st one im about to start, you better not bet too big old fella

[doug the slug]

Ian, Doug,
boats built in this manner are considered to be of "composite"construction.

Mick

maybe so, but if you look at "Simpson on Boatbuilding" ( book, not website) he makes a clear distinction between strip plank and composit construction using panels of foam and end grain balsa.

[bitofascallywag]

i guess copper nails and clinched and roves would mean something not to mention steaming garboards then all the rest

[Wild Dingo]

aaaahhh the mighty traditional wooden boat build method is the only method of wooden boat building compared to the modernist composite wooden boat build method is the modernist but still a wooden boat boatbuilding method

This argument has beaten itself to death for years on the woodenboat.com forum to such an extent that many dont bother responding due to the arguments that ensue from someone bringing it up!

So we have a traditionally built wooden barge made of huon pine about 40 -50 years ago and we have our wee mate bitofascallywag who wants to retain the tradional woodenboat but use a router to gouge out the oakum caulking and replacing that with pine strips to what purpose would one do such a darstardly thing?... BOASW ol son if your going to maintain yourself as a traditionalist and keep the damned wooden boat as it was built then you have no bloody choice but to rove out the damned old caulking and recaulk it!

But if your prepared to buy the modern machinery ie: router and then route out the caulking (lets not mention how hard that is going to be on the router or the bits which others have alluded to) and replace it with strips why not cover it in dynel and be done? easy done and over the boat will last a bloody long time as long as no damage is done to the dynel cover to allow ingress of water and you wont have as much maintenace to do on it either

You should on all reading Ive done and people Ive spoken to here in the states canada england germany brazil etc keep the traditional boat as such so take out the caulking and replace it with new caulking and the boat will easily last beyond the 40 - 50 year expectation (with due care to maintenance of course)

Ive heard of fellas redoing old boats with dynel and it being a stuff up simply cause the damned wood was wet!! Well if one thought for a few tics one would sorta maybe realize that eh? I mean a traditional build boat is a bare timber hull immersed in water for the most part now take that bare hull out of water and it will dry out right? well it will also open up! so whack some of that googe on her bung some dynel over her slather her again... and pretty soon your gonna have problems! Why? cause the damned woods still wet :rolleyes: simple answer dont do it

As to the argument re old traditional to composite Ive heard it said that even the mighty US designer Nat Herroshoff (sp?) would have used modern construction methods had they been available during his time... however hes gone so thats just conjecture... for myself a woodenboat is a woodenboat is a woodenboat just varying degrees of maintenance work as an ongoing project :D

Name 3 builders in the traditional method of recent times... in Australia?
1) Bernadette and David Hedger Far North Queensland Atkins Malabar Jnr "Decataur" launched 2 year ago sailin east coast heading south should be in Tassy for the woodenboat show this year
2) Peter Sibley South Australia building own design from English Pilot of the late 18 early 19th century expecting to launch sometime in the next 4-5 years
3) Kathrine Sager Southwest West Aust building Arthor Bishop 30fter to be launched sometime in next 5 - 6 years

Could name several more if you like... although the more popular designs nowadays are the ply epoxy fibreglass ala Wharram or the strip core construction ala Simpson there are however many builders opting for the traditional build method

One of the more recent big builds was in the 1980s a Murray Peterson (US) design called the Coaster Schooner at 50ft build for a fella named Buckland in New Zealand she being named "Fritha"... this build was truely taditional including the rig which was brigatine including square sails and all the fruits geegaws and dodads of that rig and design... beautiful stunning yacht :cool:

One of the designs Im presently looking at is a 30ft Swedish Koster design the drawings of which were made by a fella in Canada of a 130+ year old still sailing boat named Elly... another a 40ft schooner by a designer named BB Crowninshield from 1910 named "Fame"... Im also a rabid Wharram lover!! gawd the freedom those cats evoke is amazing!! but the price of his plans are nightmarish!! :eek: :mad:

Final words? Bitofascallywag ol son... DONT DO IT!... just get some more oakum caulking stuff rove out the old muck and bung in the new stuff and do it properly and it will be right for as long as you breathe (maintenance a given of course)

Cheers!!

[bitofascallywag]

righty o its off to work i go,thanks wild puppy

[Wild Dingo]

Now I hope you got the idea there cobber?... eerr that is general advice here and there is kinda like what an old fella over there tends to say when people suggest such things... FORGEDABOUDDIT! :rolleyes:

I know its not what you were hoping to hear but there you go :cool:

Cheers an glad to be of assistance! ;)

Now back to propa like gear!! So whens the launch and wheres me flamin ruddy invite Doug?? I mean comeon mate a Simpson cat??? an Im not invited?? FLAMIN ECK!!! :eek: Whats the world comin too :rolleyes:

[doug the slug]

So whens the launch and wheres me flamin ruddy invite Doug?? I mean comeon mate a Simpson cat??? an Im not invited?? FLAMIN ECK!!! :eek: Whats the world comin too :rolleyes:

Launch wont be for a while yet, probalby a few years, there will be heaps more about it on the forum before then, im sure

[Auld Bassoon]

Bitofascallywag,

I have to agree with Bodgy. I've been around boats, many wooden, for most of my life, and with trad. wooden hulls, if they've been caulked with oakum, then I'm afraid that what you have to (re) do. \

Go to a boatyard that has a decent ship's carpenter on hand and ask how it should be done. Using a caulking iron does need a bit of tuition to get the packing even and correct.

Whatever you don't rout the seams - they'll be permanently bu**ered!

Cheers!