Laguna cyclone

[simops]

Has anyone got the Laguna 3 Hp c-flux cyclone? If so, I'm interested in getting it and would appreciate any comments good or bad......

cheers

[DomAU]

Sorry no experience. I had a quick look and have a couple of observations however;

1. Widely accepted wisdom is that a longer cyclone will have a higher separation efficiency, that is, remove a higher percentage of small particles prior to the filters.

2. The Laguna still appears to be a shorter-style cyclone body vs a Clearvue or Oneida so may not have as good separation performance.

3. The filter area on the laguna is 100 sq feet vs 300 sq feet on a Clearvue and as recommended by Bill Pentz.

4. The Laguna C-Flux filter is coarser, so won't present as much back-pressure and static pressure drop, therefore perhaps not a performance drop vs the Clearvue filters, BUT;

5. The Laguna C-Flux filter is only a Merv 12 rated filter vs a 15 I believe for the Clearvue, so will let through more fine dust. The P-Flux has a higher rated filter but still only 100sq ft so will create more back-pressure and clog up quicker, which may be a lot quicker due to points 1 & 2 above.

6. The Laguna has no VFD so will spin a 50Hz vs the 60Hz it was designed to spin at in the USA. Looking at the US specs at least they've done the right thing and reduced the claimed flow rate by 20% which is correct. The max static pressure of 11.2" remains the same on the US vs AU specs and that cannot be correct; it will be much lower at 50Hz and 11.2" is not a lot to begin with. I imagine for a reasonably sized workshop this may be a problem.

7. The plus side of the 50Hz is it will/should be a LOT quieter than the claimed 88dBA at 60Hz (if the claim is correct at 60 Hz to begin with; seems reasonable).

8. The 15.5" impeller is a good size so is a plus. Though it would be good to spin it at 60 Hz. Maybe a VFD can be added later?

9. Although the claimed CFM may not be outrageously overstated at 1350CFM I would expect a lot less with ducting and machines attached. Especially at 50 Hz. Maybe still get a real 800 CFM.

If you have the ceiling height give the Clearvue some real consideration. The Laguna may be great, but thought I'd provide my thoughts above.

Good luck and do your research so that YOU are happy with YOUR choice. It's a big and very important investment, you don't want to regret your decision whatever you choose.

I have a Clearvue, and therefore am biased. I am very happy with my Clearvue and never once though I made the wrong choice, but I'm not saying that this is what you should do. That's completely up to you and only you need to be convinced.

[BobL]

Good summary Dom.

A couple of other comments
The short body and non ramped inlet suggests it is an old design that will have significant back pressure and that is probably why it uses a coarse filter.

If it has 11.2"WC vacuum at 60 Hz it will be 20% less at 50Hz and correspondingly less flow as well.

If you want to spin it to 60Hz with a VFD you should get the 3Phase model.

If you locate or vent a Clearvue outside you don't need the filters but I suspect the Laguna would still need filters.

I don't have a cyclone but if I were to get one it would the ClearVue type rather than one of these older designs

[richmond68]

Not much to add to what DomAU has said. These are portable cyclones, a step up from a filter bag collector but realistically used with a single machine at a time - the "real cfm" figure is derived at from a length of ducting 10x the inlet diameter, so this means 2m with an 8" inlet. If you are in a situation where you have a temporary workspace such as a garage shared with cars or where a ducted central collector is impractical, they're a reasonable compromise. Certainly a lot better than a filter bag collector in your workspace. But the real cfm number should tell you it's not meant for use in a central ducted system.

Apart from the hexagonal bin and a few cosmetic tweaks it appears to be the same design used by many other brands sourced from Trupro Tec in Taiwan like Carbatec, Woodman etc.

[simops]

Thanks for the feedback.
i only have a 2.2m ceiling height where the DC is (sloping garage roof). Would the clearvue fit and what model do you have?

cheers

[DomAU]

If it has 11.2"WC vacuum at 60 Hz it will be 20% less at 50Hz and correspondingly less flow as well.



Actually it's worse than that. Reducing rpm to 50Hz will lower max static pressure to 7.78" W.C. as the relationship between static pressure and fan speed is not linear.

Not sure if the clearvue would fit under a 2.2m ceiling. I'll measure mine and let you know. There is some scope depending on bin size but I suspect you may struggle without having the motor sticking up through the plaster. I'll let you know once I've measured.

[BobL]

Actually it's worse than that. Reducing rpm to 50Hz will lower max static pressure to 7.78" W.C. as the relationship between static pressure and fan speed is not linear.

I agree it will drop by more than 20% but I have never been able to quite confirm the "pressure being proportional to fan speed squared" relationship by measurements, so there must be something unusual going in with the systems I was looking at. I looked up some old measurement data on this and see I was getting somewhere around 33% for a 60/50 Hz change. Have you measured this on your system?


Not sure if the clearvue would fit under a 2.2m ceiling. I'll measure mine and let you know. There is some scope depending on bin size but I suspect you may struggle without having the motor sticking up through the plaster. I'll let you know once I've measured.
Chris Parks posted some picks of a low celling CV install in this thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/mounting-motor-upside-plenum-213743

[DomAU]

I agree it will drop by more than 20% but I have never been able to quite confirm the "pressure being proportional to fan speed squared" relationship by measurements, so there must be something unusual going in with the systems I was looking at. I looked up some old measurement data on this and see I was getting somewhere around 33% for a 60/50 Hz change. Have you measured this on your system?


Chris Parks posted some picks of a low celling CV install in this thread http://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/mounting-motor-upside-plenum-213743

I measured my system at 50Hz and 60Hz as 252mm W.C. and 360mm W.C. respectively. That actually works out extremely close to the squared relationship. (50/60)^2 x 360mm = 250mm so pretty damn close!

[DomAU]

My Clearvue CV1800 measures 181 cm from the bottom of the cyclone body to the top of the motor . Not a lot of room left for a bin unless you were to recess the motor into the ceiling or something like that. Although I imagine installation may then prove a little more difficult.

[BobL]

I measured my system at 50Hz and 60Hz as 252mm W.C. and 360mm W.C. respectively. That actually works out extremely close to the squared relationship. (50/60)^2 x 360mm = 250mm so pretty damn close!

I think that's a sign of a well made impeller. Both the systems I can find data for were for old straight vaned impellers with the impeller in a sort of box, so no spiral pressure development curve.

That 252 mm reading is the same as what I measure on the mens shed CV at 50Hz - they don't have a VFD (yet). One thing I'm not happy about with the mens shed CV is the amount of rumble/vibration that comes out of the impeller. It's low frequency and not that noisy but its suggesting something is not balanced correctly. I wonder if that might be enough of a reason to see if it can convince them to get a VFD. They are also in the middle of planning a shed expansion but not much will happen until next year. I have been asked about increasing the capacity of the DC system and will recommend a VFD will be needed.

[DomAU]

I think that's a sign of a well made impeller. Both the systems I can find data for were for old straight vaned impellers with the impeller in a sort of box, so no spiral pressure development curve.

That 252 mm reading is the same as what I measure on the mens shed CV at 50Hz - they don't have a VFD (yet). One thing I'm not happy about with the mens shed CV is the amount of rumble/vibration that comes out of the impeller. It's low frequency and not that noisy but its suggesting something is not balanced correctly. I wonder if that might be enough of a reason to see if it can convince them to get a VFD. They are also in the middle of planning a shed expansion but not much will happen until next year. I have been asked about increasing the capacity of the DC system and will recommend a VFD will be needed.

I think a VFD is a must. I notice a very significant difference in airflow between 50 and 60Hz (which seems like more than the 20% theoretical), though I haven't taken the time to properly measure it. On the down-side the noise is far greater at 60 Hz vs 50 Hz. I use the system at 50 Hz when I'm working with hand tools for better ambiance but still sufficient airflow. 60-63 Hz for all machine work.

[BobL]

Ive been thinking a bit more about the SP generated by the CV system.
Are you are measuring the SP of the whole CV system or just the impeller?
Also are you using a muffler?

[simops]

Can a VFD be used with a single phase motor??

[DomAU]

Ive been thinking a bit more about the SP generated by the CV system.
Are you are measuring the SP of the whole CV system or just the impeller?
Also are you using a muffler?

Not sure I understand your question Bob. I am measuring the static pressure with exhaust ducting etc attached if that's what you mean. I never was sure if this should make a difference to the max static pressure on the inlet side or not, but figured it shouldn't given that the airflow is zero. Obviously the exhaust ducting would add to the static pressure when there is flow through the system but otherwise I don't see that it would.

[DomAU]

Can a VFD be used with a single phase motor??

Needs to be three phase motor. My bad.

Although, I'm pretty sure that the Teco motor I got for my Clearvue could be wired either 3 phase or single. Maybe I'm confused this is outside my area of interest and experience. One of the other guys will know I'm sure.

[BobL]

Not sure I understand your question Bob. I am measuring the static pressure with exhaust ducting etc attached if that's what you mean. I never was sure if this should make a difference to the max static pressure on the inlet side or not, but figured it shouldn't given that the airflow is zero. Obviously the exhaust ducting would add to the static pressure when there is flow through the system but otherwise I don't see that it would.

Thanks for the reply. Yep, it should not matter.

[BobL]

Can a VFD be used with a single phase motor??

It turns out you can with a few add ons
BUT it's an inappropriate way to get more speed out of a DC SP motor, and doing so will lead to serious problems

You might want to read this, http://www.woodworkforums.com/f245/flettys-shed-wip-retrospective-201068/52#post2021480 to see what might happen

[ian]

One thing I'm not happy about with the mens shed CV is the amount of rumble/vibration that comes out of the impeller. It's low frequency and not that noisy but its suggesting something is not balanced correctly. I wonder if that might be enough of a reason to see if it can convince them to get a VFD. They are also in the middle of planning a shed expansion but not much will happen until next year. I have been asked about increasing the capacity of the DC system and will recommend a VFD will be needed.This, just recommending the addition of a VFD, I don't really follow.

Yes, I get the bit about lower starting current and variable motor speed, but I would think a shed expansion and DC system upgrade would be code to go proper industrial -- 12" or bigger ducting and a 3-ph motor in the range of 10 to 15 kW -- and possible multiple DC units.

[BobL]

This, just recommending the addition of a VFD, I don't really follow.

Yes, I get the bit about lower starting current and variable motor speed, but I would think a shed expansion and DC system upgrade would be code to go proper industrial -- 12" or bigger ducting and a 3-ph motor in the range of 10 to 15 kW -- and possible multiple DC units.

I just came back from a shed upgrade planning meeting.
No additional WW machinery is planned.
The existing 7 x 14 m mainly woodshop machinery area and existing DC system will be retained.
The metal working lathe, an upright metal bandsaw, and metal milling machine currently in that area will be replaced by more layout / bench space

Funds permitting, the proposed extension space is going to be for extra office space, bigger social spaces, replacing the Seatainer with a proper storeroom, a spray booth and more metal working space, like welding booths. The latter two will have their own air handling systems.

[bryn23]

I just came back from a shed upgrade planning meeting.
No additional WW machinery is planned.
The existing 7 x 14 m mainly woodshop machinery area and existing DC system will be retained.
The metal working lathe, an upright metal bandsaw, and metal milling machine currently in that area will be removed and replaced by more layout / bench space

Funds permitting, the proposed extension space is going to be for extra office space, bigger social spaces, replacing the Seatainer with a proper storeroom, a spray booth and metal working spaces like welding booths. The latter two will have their own air handling systems.


Were is this mens shed getting their money.....

[BobL]

Were is this mens shed getting their money.....

Ha - must be friends in high places. I'm not involved in the fund raising but there are some members that are decidedly good fundraisers.
I think their plans may be significantly greater than their ability to raise money but I duly stand ready to be corrected :)

[Chris Parks]

Needs to be three phase motor. My bad.

Although, I'm pretty sure that the Teco motor I got for my Clearvue could be wired either 3 phase or single. Maybe I'm confused this is outside my area of interest and experience. One of the other guys will know I'm sure.

It can be wired for either 240/415 volts but not single phase.

[Chris Parks]

This, just recommending the addition of a VFD, I don't really follow.

Yes, I get the bit about lower starting current and variable motor speed, but I would think a shed expansion and DC system upgrade would be code to go proper industrial -- 12" or bigger ducting and a 3-ph motor in the range of 10 to 15 kW -- and possible multiple DC units.

Just add another Clearvue, way more simple and cheaper.

[Chris Parks]

Were is this mens shed getting their money.....

Men's Sheds are very well funded, make your case and the money is handed over.

[simops]

Got some info today and the Laguna C- Flux cyclone single phase motor has been changed for Aus distribution to a 240VAC 50Hz rated unit.

cheers

[DomAU]

Got some info today and the Laguna C- Flux cyclone single phase motor has been changed for Aus distribution to a 240VAC 50Hz rated unit.

cheers

Yep. The issue is that it runs at 50 Hz instead of 60 Hz. Therefore 20% less airflow than at 60 Hz. Unless they've put a far larger impeller on than the US version, which I highly doubt and thought I remember seeing 15.5" specified for both.

[simops]

I guess that is a universal issue if the product is USA /Canada based unless made here or in Europe......

are there any serious home workshop based cyclones made in Aus? Or in Europe exported to here?

cheers

[Lappa]

I read, on a US forum, that a guy had a DC that was avaiable world wide. He sourced an impellor designed for the 50hz motors to fit to his 60hz as the impellor was larger but casing was the same size.
Maybe that's only the case in some units?

[jms_8087]

I've been down the exact same path you are on now with cyclones and in the end I went with the clearvue unit and I'm happy I did so.

The performance of the cyclones I looked at when trying to decide were ok but they have nothing on the airflow that the clearvue has... The only plus to them was they were quiet.


I guess that is a universal issue if the product is USA /Canada based unless made here or in Europe......

are there any serious home workshop based cyclones made in Aus? Or in Europe exported to here?

cheers

[Chris Parks]

I read, on a US forum, that a guy had a DC that was avaiable world wide. He sourced an impellor designed for the 50hz motors to fit to his 60hz as the impellor was larger but casing was the same size.
Maybe that's only the case in some units?

A Clearvue Max?

[Lappa]

I fairly sure it was a genetic 2hp machine like a FM 300, definately not a ClearVue.

[simops]

As the original poster on this thread......here is an update.......I ended up deciding on purchasing the Laguna 3HP C-Flux. Main reason is that I don't have the height for the other ones mentioned. I'm very impressed with the build quality. Is it as good as what others have recommended here....probably not but compared to what I had (2Hp generic dusty) it's leaps ahead. I'll post a review in the a Review section once I get around to it.
cheers