New Lie Nielson Back-Saw Kinked?

[DomAU]

Hi guys,

Just got back from 5 weeks away in the UK for a holiday and came back to some parcels of tools waiting for me. One included a Lie Nielsen Tapered dovetail, carcass and 16" Tenon saw. My first western-style saws after using Japanese saws exclusively.

Both the dovetail and large tenon saws have nice straight blades / tooth-lines however the 14" tapered carcass saw has noticeable skew / kink in the blade . It curves to one side near to the handle. The blade is straight for probably 12 inches and then in the last 2 inches it skews/kinks/drifts about 1-2mm to one side. It's very noticeable eyeballing along the blade and with a straight-edge against the blade is approx 1-2mm from straight.

This doesn't seem right to me but I'm not sure what is considered acceptable for this type of saw and whether this will have any effect on cut quality in practice (seems like it would).

Should I send it back or suck it up?

I'll try to take a photo later. I just woke up after flying in late last night so I have more urgent priorities from the boss.

Cheers,

Dom

[doug3030]

You are paying top dollar for a premium tool. Send it back.

I doubt lie Neilsen would want factory second out there in public either.

Cheers

Doug

[DomAU]

Hard to get a good photo. And they are in profile view so will upload wrong way around. Much more visible in real life. Hopefully these photos provide an indication. What do you guys think? I dont want to over-react.

413798

413799

Cheers, Dom

[IanW]

Hi Dom, a bit of terminology discussion first: I'd call what you've described a 'bend' rather than a 'kink'. I think of a kink as a sharp bend in the plate, which has very serious implications and would need either expert attention to remove, or a new blade (which would be both cheaper & more desirable). A small curve at the back of a blade like you describe is not that uncommon on old backsaws. This happens if the spine and blade slots are slightly misaligned, either because they were cut that way, or the wood has moved & twisted the cheeks after it was manufactured (always a risk when you choose to use highly figured woods for handles!). Whatever the cause, when the bolts are tightened it pulls the plate to one side a little. My guess is that's what you have with your saw. It's easy to confirm, just remove the blade from the handle and the blade should return to perfectly straight, but of course you may not wish to do that if you are thinking of asking for a replacement. It's sometimes easy to correct, just a fraction off one side of the blade slot might do the trick, but that won't do it if the cheeks have warped a little. In my early days of sawmaking, before I learnt to take extra care with the slotting business, I ended up scrapping a handle or two I could not get to 'sit right'. With time & practice, that rarely happens now, but I still always fit blades first, after cutting out the handle blank - if it does go pear-shaped, at least I haven't wasted too much time.

But there are other possibilities for your less than straight blade. I mailed some saws a year or so back, and one arrived with a marked curve in the blade, which turned out to be caused by a slightly bent & twisted spine. I have no idea what Aus Post did to manage that, the packing seemed to be intact, so I can only hypothesise that someone sat a very heavy something on the parcel & that saw bore the brunt of it!

If your curve is due to slight spine/blade misalignment within the handle, it shouldn't affect accuracy, as the affected part of the blade is never used anyway, so it's more an aesthetic issue. If your saw was a fleamarket find, I'd say just use it & you'd probably find it cuts perfectly well, but as Doug says, it's not something you'd expect on a saw you forked-out quite a few $$$s for, so I'd be contacting LN (with a good illustration of the problem if you can manage it) & asking if they think this is within their tolerance limits.....

Cheers,

[IanW]

You up-loaded the pics while I was typing. As you say, it's not easy to see the exact problem from the pics. If my suggestion of a twist caused by the handle is correct, it should be all at the end covered by the handle, the rest of the blade should be straight. If 90% of the blade seems to be straight, try the saw on a few cuts, and if it tracks & cuts straight, then you just have to decide if you can live with a slight imperfection in appearance.... :U

Cheers,

[doug3030]

Ian makes good ponts, but it is still a premium product, as I Said before, not aflea market find.

In my experience, LN would not want a dissatisfied customer, or a substandard product out there cheapening their brand.

I would call them today and discuss it. I would be suprised if they du not offer a nnew replacement or at least a suitable repair.

Cheers

Doug

[Luke Maddux]

I'm going to agree with both Ian and Doug.

I agree with Ian in that it probably won't affect the performance of the saw, and, ultimately, it's up to you to decide whether or not you want it replaced.

But I also agree with Doug that Lie Nielsen would replace the saw in a heartbeat. They would likely WANT you to send it back because they have such high standards and also because tool companies (or any company for that matter) want people to have those "I just had a great customer service experience" stories. If you tell ten people about the level of integrity with which they handled your claim, then it's worth their coin to post it back and forth across the Pacific again.

Y'know... I've personally always kind of wondered why they use that curly Maple on their saw handles. Aside from its potential to cause issues like this due to its figuring and irregular grain, I'm not a huge fan of the light color. Why use something so light when it's just going to get grubbed up badly over time. I suppose the same could be said of their planes. But maybe I'm just a grotty, grubby woodworker... I think anyone who works with some of the gummier Eucalypts and Acacias would probably agree. I, for one, would like to see them switch to Walnut or Beech.

Good luck,
Luke

[DomAU]

Thanks guys,

I'll shoot them an email and see what they say about the saw. I didn't want to even try a cut with it before i let them know it came delivered this way.

Luke, I agree regarding the handles. The maple looks nice but i would also prefer walnut. Guess that's why i ordered a Bad Axe Stiletto dovetail saw with walnut handle, gun-black nuts and copper plated back for $530au! last week. Hopefully my fiancee doesn't see my credit card statement! ��

[ian]

Hi Dom
did you buy from Adelaide (LN Australia) or from the factory in Maine?

Either way, I'm confident that LN will stand by their product and replace the damaged saw.

[DomAU]

Hi Dom
did you buy from Adelaide (LN Australia) or from the factory in Maine?

Either way, I'm confident that LN will stand by their product and replace the damaged saw.

Through Classic Hand Tools in the UK. I'll email them later today. They are really good guys so i'm sure if they think the saw isn't right they'll help to rectify it.

[DomAU]

413826

Thought maybe this photo is a little clearer. I've email CHT and am awaiting a response. Thanks again for the advise guys. Much appreciated.

[IanW]

....Thought maybe this photo is a little clearer....

Yep, that shows the bend at the heel quite nicely. It certainly looks like a slightly askew slot/handle or a warped cheek problem to me. Perhaps one of the cheeks has twisted a bit from the humidity changes as it winged its way across the Pacific. I'm sure their QC wouldn't let that through to the keeper - maybe the inspector sneezed as it was going by. :U

BTW, I wasn't suggesting you should lump it, just saying it probably won't affect how it cuts. If it bothers you (& it would probably bother me if I'd paid out that much for a saw! :; ), you have every right to ask for rectification. As the others have said, LN should be keen to get their hands on it & determine exactly what the problem is. Maybe they should switch to Walnut in the future, it's a more stable wood than Maple....... :D

Cheers,

[D.W.]

I've made a saw that's like that and gotten vintage saws that are like that. I've never noticed an issue in terms of actual cutting. I'm sure the front of the saw establishes your cut line and if the back of the saw gets to it, it will just flex to fit the cut line.

But I agree with the folks above - if you're expecting perfect and you're getting the saw from a company who generally delivers that, then exchange it if you'd like. The real danger in keeping a saw like that is that it makes re-selling very awkward if you decide you don't want to keep it. So, more of a problem in re-selling than using.

[ian]

Just on the matter of Lie Nielsen QC and the woods chosen for saw handles.
I don't recall any previous posts on the wood working forums I inhabit complaining about the problem Dom has, which leaves me thinking that the damage occurred somewhere between the saw leaving Maine to travel across the Atlantic to the UK and then being packaged to travel to AUS and finally being unpacked on Dom's kitchen table. And that the damage is a warehousing / shipping issue, and is not related to how the handle is seated or the wood chosen for the handle.

Some questions if I may ...
was the saw in its original LN packaging when it arrived in Dom's hands? or had it been repackaged. From memory, original packaging is a sealed blue plastic "rust prevention" bag, butcher's paper wrapping and a reasonably sturdy cardboard box.

leaving aside questions about availability, how did the price from Classic Hand Tools (including shipping and credit card surcharges) compare to buying from Adelaide?

[D.W.]

I'm sure that the bend (well, as sure as one could be) is due to movement of the wood after manufacture. LN would have a mechanized procedure set up (their saws are too inexpensive for anything else, and the cost of returns too expensive for any other practice) and someone touches those teeth up, and I can't imagine they or someone else doesn't look down the tooth line when they do it.

I wish the ones I made or had could make the same claim!! Unfortunately, the old ones, the slot is clearly not cut that well (they are old english saws, I'd imagine they were cut by hand), and on mine, it's definitely my fault for not cutting the slot well enough.

At any rate, curly maple isn't particularly stable - it's decent but not great - and when used in guitar necks, etc, it still has to be laminated with other woods, even when it's quartersawn. Heritage guitars over here made some expensive guitars with truss rods in them and without laminating them - they were curly maple - and they had all kinds of problems with them and eventually went to inserting other woods in the neck so that the necks were 3 separate pieces of curly maple in sequence with two other pieces between those three. Wood movement - it happens.

There is but one other possibility that I have seen in practice, and that is saws packed with something pushing the plate (for example, taping the plates of a bundle of saws together so that they are bowed for a period of several days) - that's more of a problem with resellers of old tools improperly packing and boxing tools than it is with new tool makers and retailers.

[DomAU]

I received a response from CHT early this morning after they contacted Lie Nielsen. All were happy for me to send back the saw for a replacement. However the Lie Nielsen rep said i could fiddle with it first to see if it could be fixed with some light flexing. I played with it and made a couple of cuts and it improved markedely. Enough that i can barely notice any deviation at all and enough that it's not worth the hassle of returning it.

Very happy with Lie Nielsen and CHT for their service.

[DomAU]

Some questions if I may ...
was the saw in its original LN packaging when it arrived in Dom's hands? or had it been repackaged. From memory, original packaging is a sealed blue plastic "rust prevention" bag, butcher's paper wrapping and a reasonably sturdy cardboard box.

leaving aside questions about availability, how did the price from Classic Hand Tools (including shipping and credit card surcharges) compare to buying from Adelaide?

Yes, original packaging. Well packaged and no signs of damage to packaging.

It cost me about $204 including shipping vs $269 here so about 25% off. If i were just buying the one saw i definitely would have bought here. But i had about $2000 worth of stuff so 25% adds up. Also shipping is then spread over a larger sum

[Bushmiller]

Dom

You have brought up an interesting issue there in mentioning the saw was part of a large consignment: Two grand. Was it shipped as one package or multiple? The reason I ask is that goods over $1000 are subject to importation duty and/or GST. I was just wondering how you had got around that problem.

Good that your saw issue was resolved. Reputable companies are usually good to deal with: That's why they are reputable :wink: .

Regards
Paul

[goodvibes]

Dom

You have brought up an interesting issue there in mentioning the saw was part of a large consignment: Two grand. Was it shipped as one package or multiple? The reason I ask is that goods over $1000 are subject to importation duty and/or GST. I was just wondering how you had got around that problem.


Paul

I can answer that question.

The real rate of even superficial checking of packages by Customs in Australia is not published, but it is miniscule. Checking of contents (and even further downstream - value) is pretty much unheard of unless there is intelligence on the consignment or some form of red flag.

Because of the unwillingness to fund any kind of effective import control, the government is trying to force companies such as Ebay and Amazon to collect taxes and duties on overseas sales. Not surprisingly, these companies have responded with a resounding "get stuffed" and threatened to zone prohibit ANY international sales to Australia if the government proceeds with the legislation.

Bottom line - so long as you don't have BOMB or DRUGS written in big red letters on the outside, you can bring pretty much whatever you like into Australia in a carton with a possibility of detection approaching zero.

[DomAU]

Sorry. Didn't actually mean to like that post because in this case it is not the answer.

I split the order into two seperate packages each under $1000 without shipping.

Any reputable seller has to declare the real sales value of the goods on the shipping invoice. The delivery company then charges you the gst and duty (as well as admin fee) if the package is over $1000aud and this happens every time. You are unlikely to get a $1000+ package in without paying.

The recent move by the government is for all imports below $1000- value. They want the seller to collect the GST on their behalf for these smaller imports.

[IanW]

....I wish the ones I made or had could make the same claim!! Unfortunately, the old ones, the slot is clearly not cut that well (they are old english saws, I'd imagine they were cut by hand), and on mine, it's definitely my fault for not cutting the slot well enough.....

Exackery, DW, many (most?) old saws that have come by me had slightly crude spine slots, and if everyone reading this thread goes & takes a really critical look at a few of their backsaws, I reckon quite a few will discover they're harboring a deviant or two! :U

Having made a few saws myself, I think there might be a good reason why the makers of old didn't try for water-tight fits with their spines. With a loose slot, the spine is less likely to act as a fulcrum if the slot in the spine ends up a bit twisted or off-centre (I'm talking hundreths of n inch which would be more than reasonable tolerances to expect) when the bolts are tightened. If handles were banged out by the thousands, there wouldn't be room for a lot of finesse, so a bit loose was probably the go.

I've thought about whether 'tis better to cut the spine slots so the wood doesn't quite touch the metal (as when inletting rifle barrels), but haven't come up with a compelling reason why one way might be better than the other, as long as the fit is accurate. As I've gotten better at cutting the respective slots, my number of misses has diminished to near zero, so I continue to try & keep the spine slot tight - looks neater that way, if nothing else... :;

Cheers,

[D.W.]

I received a response from CHT early this morning after they contacted Lie Nielsen. All were happy for me to send back the saw for a replacement. However the Lie Nielsen rep said i could fiddle with it first to see if it could be fixed with some light flexing. I played with it and made a couple of cuts and it improved markedely. Enough that i can barely notice any deviation at all and enough that it's not worth the hassle of returning it.

Very happy with Lie Nielsen and CHT for their service.

That sounds like an excellent conclusion. I'm sure you'll enjoy the saw, and I'm sure it will perform well. I'm in the same boat as you with hassle. If something is outright terrible, I'll send it back. If I can make it work, I won't. Sometimes the seller is less than honest, too (certainly not in this case). E.g., I got a norris panel plane from a seller on ebay a couple of months ago - a very late one. I paid 800 bucks US for it because the seller said it was hardly used and the metal was extremely fresh on it, and the iron unused or close. When I received it, it's clear that the plane body had been surface ground, the iron replaced with a new one and the wood has enough hand wear on it that there's no way the metal would've been so fresh nor the iron only with a hone or two on it and the original finish on the back. I am probably out $200 on it, maybe a little bit more, but it's just not worth the hassle and the plane is quite nice to use. I've got no interest in spending ten hours packing it up, arguing with the seller and scouring ads to find something similar later - it'll all even out in the end, anyway.

New tools just the same. If they come with a mark or a little something on them that will be menial down the road after they've been used for some time, I can live with it. The fact that the dealer and manufacturer endorsed your tinkering and let you know they'd take it back is a super reasonable position to take - you are afforded the chance to make it as you like with no risk.

[ian]

I still have a problem with this supposition

I'm sure that the bend (well, as sure as one could be) is due to movement of the wood after manufacture. LN would have a mechanized procedure set up (their saws are too inexpensive for anything else, and the cost of returns too expensive for any other practice) and someone touches those teeth up, and I can't imagine they or someone else doesn't look down the tooth line when they do it.

At any rate, curly maple isn't particularly stable - it's decent but not great

If it affected even 1 in 200 saws, I'd expect that the issue would have surfaced here or on Sawmill creek or on Woodcentral or on another forum many times over the past 20 years.
However, I'm can't recall this problem surfacing previously, nor can I find other posts talking about this sort of damage to a new saw.

So I'm left thinking that the damage would have occurred during shipping.

[derekcohen]

I was going to post this early on, and deleted it in case it sounded too curmudgeonly. Others may want to use this if it occurs to them.

If the saw was mine, I would have contacted the seller and explained the situation, sending photos (just as you did). I would also have suggested that I try and fix it myself, if they gave permission to do so (and, as it happened, the seller suggested that you do so. Full marks to them). Like Dave, I am too impatient to send things back, especially if there is a quick fix I can do myself.

The problem is not one that I view as likely due to wood moving (just as Ian notes). I have never seen this in a saw from LN or any other new saw from another similar manufacturer. I don't dispute vintage saws which may have been stored poorly.

The problem is caused by the cheek being out-of-straight, but many things could have caused this. The most simple reason is that there is a bit of wood waste in the slot, or the slot was cut, the blade wandered very slightly, and inside there is a slight hump on one side.

The fix is to use a card scraper inside the slot to remove any debris or scrape away any high spots. Clear it out, scrape it down. It has worked for me a few times.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

.....If it affected even 1 in 200 saws, I'd expect that the issue would have surfaced here or on Sawmill creek or on Woodcentral or on another forum many times over the past 20 years.
However, I'm can't recall this problem surfacing previously, nor can I find other posts talking about this sort of damage to a new saw......

Ian, from my experience with backsaws old & new, I suggest the little bend at the heel is far more common than you might think. Given the nature of wood, there's just got to be some seasonal movement, & given that not every handle is made from perfectly quartersawn stock, such movement is likely to be assymetrical. It doesn't take much twist or misalignment to produce that little end-wave, believe me! Since the vast majority of owners don't set or sharpen their own saws, I'd wager relatively few have ever sighted along their saws' toothlines, and of those who have, fewer still have probably noticed the ever so slight deviations that occur. I'll throw out my challenge again - I'll bet at least one person following this thread is harbouring a saw with a teeny little curve at the heel.

The good news is, it has no discernible effect on saw performance, which is one reason why you've never noticed it before..... :U

Cheers,

[IanW]

Sorry Derek, I hadn't read your thread before I posted. What you say makes good sense (& vindicates my assertion that there are a lot of 'little curves' out there). Cutting the blade slot & fitting the spine on a saw is always a bit fraught; as I said, a small error will translate into a little bit of blade curvature. I've learnt to cut my slots very carefully, sawing first from one side, then the other, to 'average' the slot & keep it straight, & sides as parallel as possible. Early on, I tried cutting the slots with the same slitting saws I use for the brass backs, but had less success than hand-sawing, much to my initial surprise. Unless used with great care, the (un-set) slitting blades have a habit of heating quickly & warping, which can lead to a twisted slot. Also, the small diameter saws can't manage the full depth of the slot for any but the smallest saws, so in the end I've decided sawing them by hand is the easiest & most reliable method.

I have a 'cure' if a slot does go slightly wrong, in the shape of several small saws made from scraps of saw plate - one for each gauge of plate I use (like these): 413979

These saws are toothed to cut on the pull stroke, & have no set. By gently 'sawing' down the slot, they tend to clear any errant fibres or slight bellies in the cut I've made with a conventional backsaw, without making the slot wider than desirable. I made these little saws initially to round out the back of the slot to accept the curved end of the blade, and 'discovered' their usefulness in straightening slots by accident.

Anyway, I think we can agree that it takes very little to throw a handle slot out of whack, but I still maintain that wood movement can contribute to some misalignment, too...

Cheers,