Ever Wanted a Froe Away Line?

[Bushmiller]

Quite a while back I was in discussions with a Forum member on the subject of Froes. These are the "L" shaped tools traditionally used for splitting timber with the grain. The "hammer" is usually just a lump of timber from the bush, but I call it a maul.

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The bodgers used them extensively for their chair making along with the likes of draw knives. In Australia one of the main uses was for splitting shakes, which are the short timber boards (about 600mm long) used for roofing: Shingles are the bandsawn equivalent, but often the terms are interchanged.

To get back to the story, the quest was for a really heavy duty froe. I had previously made one from a car leaf spring, but we wanted to make a big brother. It had to wait until winter as the only means I have of annealing the steel is our slow combustion heater. The annealing process softens the steel relatively so it can be worked, but it is high carbon steel so it is still quite hard. There is no way I was running the heater during our Queensland summer. We lit the fire for a couple of days last week and I took the opportunity to cut up and heat soak four pieces of steel. Originally they looked a bit like this straight off some truck or other:

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There was quite a lot of curvature and they are about 12mm thick, which is at least double the thickness of the average froe.

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The leaf springs off cars and light commercial vehicles that I've used in the past have been around 6mm thick and after annealing the spring steel I was able to straighten them by striking them with a club hammer. I lost two hammers on the rebound before I twigged that wasn't going to work with these brutes. So I put them in a hydraulic press and bent them over centre to straighten as much as possible. This was quite a lengthy process gradually moving along the steel to take out the bend. The gauge was showing at times in excess of 40T, which was as much as I could get on the lever with all my weight off the floor.

The next step was to put them under the surface grinder:

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Two partly down and two to go. The surface grinder works well but is very slow. I plan to use an angle grinder now to iron out the big bumps and then revert to the surface grinder again for final finishing.

A socket (bit o' pipe) will be attached to accommodate the handle, the tapered edge will have to be ground and then heat treated and tempered before final sharpening. The plan is to make four froes: Two longish around 16" and two shorter around 12". Apologies for the imperial measurements as I find myself reverting to inches for traditional tools.

We are on the way.

Regards
Paul

[NCArcher]

Looks like a fun project Paul. I'm pullin' up a chair.

[Pat]

I'll Froe my hat in this ring :U

[Robson Valley]

So you will be able to bash two and froe and do it twice over?
Despite their relatively crude appearance, an essential tool in many wood shops.

I had a blacksmith make a froe for me. It's 3/8" (10mm?), bevel only to one side for control.
I decided that a 10"/250mm edge would be all I'd ever need. Correct. Maybe 12" but I don't miss it.
I use it for splitting western red cedar shake blocks (24" x 12" x 8") into slabs for wood carving.
Taking off 3mm at a time is magic.

Thanks for the process pictures. Always most helpful to "see how others do it."

[Boringgeoff]

I used a car leaf spring to make a froe and thought I'd try flattening the curve without annealing it first. Surprisingly the 4lb gimpy and the anvil worked, but I did have to anneal the end to be able to drill the rivet holes.
I bevelled both sides of the blade but I like Robson's idea of a single bevel.
Cheers,
Geoff.

[Bushmiller]

Geoff

Nicely done. I was planning to use the leaf spring that has the ring for the shackle incorporated at the end. However heavy truck springs do not seem to be made that way. I will just weld on a piece of thick walled pipe.

RVs single bevel has raised an interesting point and I'm glad it has been mentioned at tis stage. I can see it may have a distinct advantage on a thicker blade and impart more control when used for trimming.

Regards
Paul

[IanW]

Paul, I admire your resourcefulness. I've been wanting a froe for years, but my imagination was stuck on having access to a forge, and since my farrier neighbor moved, I don't have that anymore. Now you've given me some ideas on how to do it. Thank you! One froe coming up (well, sometime over the next year or so, there are one or two projects ahead of it....) :U

Cheers,

[Boringgeoff]

The old Louisville that I had, had a shackle pin hole at the leading end of the primary leaf but from memory it was probably only about 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 inches in diameter perhaps a bit small? Your welded piece of pipe sounds like the deal. A piece of scaffold tubing might give you the required wall thickness.
Cheers,
Geoff.

[Luke Maddux]

Very cool, Paul. Excited to see the finished product. A froe and drawknife have been on my list for a while, but I haven't found myself having an abundance of green wood on which to use them, so they're still down the list.

Also, you have a surface grinder and a hydraulic press? Where have you got those tucked away? Have you commandeered the quilting shed now!? :o

[NCArcher]

Also, you have a surface grinder and a hydraulic press? Where have you got those tucked away?
I was wondering that as well

[Simplicity]

I thought it was just saws.
I'm watching with enthusiasm very impressed so far.

Cheers Matt.



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[Bushmiller]

Also, you have a surface grinder and a hydraulic press? Where have you got those tucked away? Have you commandeered the quilting shed now!? :o

Am I allowed to commandeer such things? A Coup d'etat perhaps?

Did I say I had a surface grinder? Did I say I had a hydraulic press? Well what I meant was that I had access to such machines :) . In fact I do have a hydraulic press that utilises a 20t bottle jack. :p . This as you can imagine is a a device I fabricated many years ago, but unfortunately it is 600Km away in NSW :( .


I was wondering that as well

Tony. Same reply as to Luke :rolleyes: .

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Paul, I admire your resourcefulness. I've been wanting a froe for years, but my imagination was stuck on having access to a forge, and since my farrier neighbor moved, I don't have that anymore. Now you've given me some ideas on how to do it. Thank you! One froe coming up (well, sometime over the next year or so, there are one or two projects ahead of it....) :U

Cheers,

Ian

If you go down this track make sure the timing is right and the project is a winter job.

I also have to confess that I only do the annealing in the combustion heater. I stoke it up as hard as it will go and then place the steel in it to be annealed. I leave the steel in to cool slowly overnight as the fire dies down. The piece is removed before the fire is re-lit the next night.

Hardening and tempering I do with an oxy set (before Luke and Tony jump in there, no I don't have one but I do have access to one). For something the size of these froes I have to use a heating head and fairly blast away at it. I think you could go back to the combustion heater, but the issue is the environment of the house during the quenching process. Not an ideal situation, particularly if you use oil, which I do. You could of course quench in water instead. Probably safer inside the house. Tempering is easier in one way in that you only need gentle heat, but the difficulty now is seeing the colour change of steel while still in the fire. A way around the tempering is to use the kitchen oven set on about 150 degs ( I'd have to check the temperature for tempering because I go by colour.

One other way of annealing I have used in the past is to utilise a bonfire. Back in NSW we used to have friends who celebrated the winter solstice and they used to drag a huge log into a nearby paddock and create a bonfire around it. I used to bring the leaf springs along and throw them into it. I would pick the springs up two or three days later when the fire was out. Of course you could do that on a smaller scale. It is not essential to burn a whole tree!

It could certainly be done. There will also be two spare froes from this mini production run :wink:

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I thought it was just saws.
I'm watching with enthusiasm very impressed so far.

Cheers Matt.



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Matt

If I wasn't in denial ( about almost everything) I would concede I may have an addictive nature.

Regards
Paul

[Robson Valley]

I've never seen a froe with bevels on both sides of the blade.
Beginning with a 60cm WRC shake block, they can weigh 18+kg fresh.
Many of my carvings work OK in 5cm slabs so I might break up an entire shake block and let the slabs dry.
I was taught to set the froe into the block with the bevel side to the slab which will be split off.
That way, the flat side goes straight down while the wedging action increases against the slab.

[Bushmiller]

The following pix are just for authenticity:

The surface grinder

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The Froe blanks are coming along

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This was the press I used mainly

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But I also had access to this one as well

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I think that 150 is 150T!

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

The following pix are just for authenticity:

The surface grinder

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The Froe blanks are coming along

414363

This was the press I used mainly

414364

But I also had access to this one as well

414365414366

I think that 150 is 150T!

Regards
Paul


Immm
That's not the homework shop
I'm thinking ??
But could be wrong it did happen once many years ago not really my fault tho.
I'm only saying because I could not spy one hand saw anywhere.

Cheers Matt

[IanW]

Paul, surface-grinding a froe seems like overkill, but you'll certainly have a nice, flat side to place against the log side! :U

I'm surprised that with your propensity for re-shaping steel, you haven't built yourself a forge, yet? It's something that's been on my 'to do' list for yonks, but because I only want it on a very sporadic basis, it keeps dropping down the priority list. I was hoping to score the old hand-blower 'portable' forge from the home farm, which would've been ideal for my needs, but one of my brothers got in first on that. :C I've been keeping an eye out for one on the market, since they were a pretty common item in many farm sheds when I were a lad. However, the only one I've come across for sale, so far, was in pretty ordinary condition & they wanted a small fortune for it!

Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

Immm
That's not the homework shop
I'm thinking ??
But could be wrong it did happen once many years ago not really my fault tho.
I'm only saying because I could not spy one hand saw anywhere.

Cheers Matt

Matt

You are quite right. No hand saws is something of a giveaway. That's part of my workplace workshop. I was thinking of loaning them a saw or two to enhance the premises.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Paul, surface-grinding a froe seems like overkill, but you'll certainly have a nice, flat side to place against the log side! :U

I'm surprised that with your propensity for re-shaping steel, you haven't built yourself a forge, yet?

Ian

You are quite right in the overkill aspect. However I wanted the blade to be bright, shiny and absolutely straight. If I had been making a one-off just for myself I probably would have hit it with a flap disc to remove surface rust and then just ground the bevel. It is the same deal as fruit in the market place. The consumer demands pretty looking fruit, but the truth is that they taste no better than the more natural appearance fruit and often taste worse as they have been developed for looks in preference to flavour.

Having said all that, I did want the froes to look smart if I could.

Yes, I too would have liked a forge, but have never got around to making something. When they bring in the 36 hour day I will reconsider.

So for the moment I will make do with the combination of slow combustion heater, domestic oven and oxy set. By the way, there is one advantage of oxy for heat treating and it is that the area for heat treating can be localised if you wish. For example, there is no need to harden the back of the blade if you don't wish. However, more uniformity and better temperature control is achieved with a dedicated oven.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Paul, Ian
Now I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything(coughs loudly)
But I did see this pic on Facebook today and we'll one bored moment led to another bored moment and my over active mind sort of made things up.
Sorry about that.
And I thought of you two,how sweet of me
No Paul not like that.
I thought is this Ian question Paul going OTT,
Was this Paul reacting considering we have all seen his Ian's beautiful saws.
Any way I'm sure hope,prey, you take this the right way.[emoji12]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170619/2c0287ed8557a8b9012cf240c204246d.jpg


Cheers Matt
No editor tonight sorry

[Bushmiller]

Matt

Would you like a lend of my railway iron to take you off track?

:-)

Regards
Paul

PS . I can tell the editor has a night off.

[Simplicity]

Matt

Would you like a lend of my railway iron to take you off track?

:-)

Regards
Paul

PS . I can tell the editor has a night off.

That would be most excellent please
Was it the right side of the track or the left side lol

[Bushmiller]

That would be most excellent please
Was it the right side of the track or the left side lol


The wrong side of the track!

Regards
Paul

[Pagie]

I have made two froes, both have bevels on both sides. They seem to work ok.
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[Bushmiller]

The froe I made previously had two bevels. The one I bought was more exactly tapered on both sides as there is no specific bevel.

However, with these froes I am leaning towards a single bevel and it will be easier to make, although that is a secondary benefit. The fundamental problem for this becomes whether the intended user is right or left handed and whether the bevel is presented to you or from you during use. As a right hander I hold the handle in my left hand and strike the blade with the maul using my right.

Left handers :rolleyes: . In times past being left handed was really bad: You were just plain evil. I expect you knew that but did you know that the Latin word for left handed was "sinistra?" We derive our word sinister from it :oo:

Regards
Paul

[Not enough!!]

I have also wanted a froe (too many toys- not enough time) so I jumped on the usual and found this one , but the owner says, he doesn't heat his to harden them, so I'm confused, as I would have thought it would at the least need a hardened cutting edge?

Can anyone please enlighten my overly thick scone, do we need the froe to be heat treated or hardened, BUT this one is EN45 spring steel? I'm none the wiser!:?

Hand forged froe WITHOUT HANDLE .Forged bevel made from 8mm (5/16") EN45 steel. | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hand-forged-froe-WITHOUT-HANDLE-Forged-bevel-made-from-8mm-5-16-EN45-steel-/222118170058?hash=item33b7464dca:g:o50AAOSwAPVZLBI1)

Stevo

[Pagie]

It would not need to be too hard as they are normally used to split green wood. I think I hardened mine but probably not needed

[Sawdust Maker]

I'd better sharpen my turning chisels, I can see a froe handle manufacture in my future...

BTW given my last froe handle make it was suggested that a froe handle be more like a pick handle. ie be made so the eye slips down the handle to a knob at the bottom to stop it slipping off rather than fitted from the bottom and wedged

[hiroller]

Just to froe another bevel option in the mix, with such a thick piece, you could make a full tapered blade.
The Ray Iles froes seem to be like this with a slight rounding on the cutting edge.
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[Bushmiller]

Life has been a little hectic of late with precious little time for froevolity.

However, I managed to get a little more work done today. Each blade now has a bevel on it approximately 30 degs or a tad over. There was a little scale left on the blades as I did not take the surface grinding to it's ultimate conclusion. This was removed with a sand blaster. Three of the blades remain with the blasted finish while one I have fancied up a little, but not completely. After final surface finishing I will weld on the sockets for the handles and then be ready for the hardening process. The bevel has been left with a 1mm blunt edge so it will not be break off during the hardening process before tempering can take place.

As not too much cutting will take place with a froe this size ( some froes are used to trim shakes for example) I plan to temper it down to the level of a cold chisel so it will be more durable and take more punishment. On that aspect I have left the back rounded as I think in conjunction with it's thickness it will be kinder on the hitting implement.

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Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Paul excellent write up again [emoji106][emoji106].
May we have a pic of the laser guides?
As I have concluded that is what the random batteries laying about are for.
It's great to see old technology mixed in with new.

Cheers Matt .


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[Sawdust Maker]

looking good

can I suggest that the sockets be slightly tapered - sort of like a pick socket - bigger diameter at the bottom than the top. The bottom being the knife edge.

[Bushmiller]

Paul excellent write up again [emoji106][emoji106].
May we have a pic of the laser guides?
As I have concluded that is what the random batteries laying about are for.
It's great to see old technology mixed in with new.

Cheers Matt .




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Matt

I had a quick clear up of the work bench, but missed the batteries. The 9V flat battery is for my moisture meter, which actually uses four of the little devils. The AA batteries were to go into a useless torch for SWMBO. No laser technology here yet.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Nick

I am planning on something along those lines of tapering.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Matt

I had a quick clear up of the work bench, but missed the batteries. The 9V flat battery is for my moisture meter, which actually uses four of the little devils. The AA batteries were to go into a useless torch for SWMBO. No laser technology here yet.

Regards
Paul

God grieve man
How to you survive with out laser guided saws and froes

I just don't understand

Cheers Matt

[Bushmiller]

A little bit more progress made in that the four blades have been cleaned up:

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The sockets are being made from two pieces of pipe. The smaller length, which will be on the bottom, has an internal diameter about 1mm larger so that there will be room for the timber wedge to expand the handle and resist being pulled though. I was going to weld these using GP rods for mild steel, but when I was cutting them up I noticed that the sparks were very different and also the small piece of pipe is seamless. In addition it had also been welded length ways with an almost perfect weld. Although this pipe was retrieved from a scrap bin, it is highly likely that it is boiler tubing of some description so I will have to use appropriate material to weld. At least it is not stainless, which might have created additional problems for welding to the blade where I will use Low Hydrogen rods.

Incidentally I did note in one of the earlier posts a reference to somebody who maintained that welded sockets always fell off. That won't happen providing the correct rods and welding technique is used. If you use General Purpose rods on high carbon steel the weld will fail the first time it is stressed: Probably when the froe is used as a lever, which it is intended to be, as well as a slitting and trimming device.

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This is a better look at the preparation profile for the weld.

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Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Collars ready for attaching to the blade:

Regards
Paul

[rob streeper]

But I did see this pic on Facebook today and we'll one bored moment led to another bored


Bored? What's bored?

Nice froe project Paul. If you can find some 321 (309 mebee? I'll check) stainless rods will work for your socket to blade join. It apparently works for joining dissimilar iron base alloys. Would be better to use something like Certanium 707, Hastelloy W or Super Missileweld (Harris) if you can.

[Bushmiller]

Rob

I have some stainless steel rods, but I think they are for 316. I will stick to the low hydrogen rods for now as I know they are intended for high carbon steel. I might get to some welding later today.

Regards
Paul

[rob streeper]

309 or 321 will likely work depending on the composition of your blade. 310 or 312 would reportedly be better. 316 may crack.

[IanW]

OK Paul & Rob, you've saved me from making a basic mistake, I probably would've just used the "general-purpose" (so it says on the packet!) rods to join a mild-steel tube socket to the spring-steel blade. I stick everything else around the place together with 'em, & not much has come apart, but it could have something to do with the sheer quantity of metal that gets applied. I inherited the 'mud-dauber wasp' method of welding from my old pot. :; So, you're telling me I should at least go & get some low-H2 rods, it seems? To get the required taper in the socket, I thought I'd just cut a narrow "V" out of the tube & squeeze it back together.

That seemed like a quick & easy solution, but I've been thinking that Paul's belled sockets might offer a big improvement. Because you will be inserting the handle from the 'top', you can turn the end of your handle with a distinct shoulder on the upper side, then when you flare the other end out with a wedge or two, you will have that handle very firmly locked in place. Dunno about you, but I've swung enough mattocks enough times to have encountered the problem of the head coming loose and sliding down the handle when you lift it for the next big strike. If you're watching where you want to hit & don't see it coming, it means a smack on the upper hand, and a few choice expletives. :~

You're not likely to suffer any injuries if your froe handle comes loose, but it would still be annoying. So better get your patent application in for "The Bushmiller's patent locking handle design", quick!
:U
Cheers,

Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

OK. The sockets have been welded to the blades:

417434417435417436

Low Hydrogen rods while being necessary for high carbon steel are not without some difficulties, at least for the hobby welder. Firstly they require a higher voltage than normal GP rods. They need an OCV of 67.5V so unless your welder has dual voltage (45V and 70V) you will not be able to use them. They are really sticky in their use and don't respond well to being stopped half way through the weld.

They need to be hot. Professionals keep them in a warming oven. In the past I have heated them in an old electric fry pan, but I have mislaid it (I can't imagine SWMBO has reclaimed it) so I had to use the kitchen oven to keep them warm. This meant I had to traipse back and forward to get a rod each time I needed a new one as they cool down rapidly.

The work piece too needs to be warm. In fact as the metal is heated you can see the moisture evaporating as the heat front travels along the steel. I just use a gas bottle and nozzle for this. It is a lot of fussing, but there is no alternative if the weld is to be sound. The side benefit of heating the rods and steel is that they do flow better. Lastly the slag is much more reluctant to chip off than on a GP rod.

The next step is for some heat treating to harden and temper, but that will have to wait until next weekend.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

OK Paul & Rob, you've saved me from making a basic mistake, I probably would've just used the "general-purpose" (so it says on the packet!) rods to join a mild-steel tube socket to the spring-steel blade. I stick everything else around the place together with 'em, & not much has come apart, but it could have something to do with the sheer quantity of metal that gets applied. I inherited the 'mud-dauber wasp' method of welding from my old pot. :; So, you're telling me I should at least go & get some low-H2 rods, it seems? To get the required taper in the socket, I thought I'd just cut a narrow "V" out of the tube & squeeze it back together.

That seemed like a quick & easy solution, but I've been thinking that Paul's belled sockets might offer a big improvement. Because you will be inserting the handle from the 'top', you can turn the end of your handle with a distinct shoulder on the upper side, then when you flare the other end out with a wedge or two, you will have that handle very firmly locked in place. Dunno about you, but I've swung enough mattocks enough times to have encountered the problem of the head coming loose and sliding down the handle when you lift it for the next big strike. If you're watching where you want to hit & don't see it coming, it means a smack on the upper hand, and a few choice expletives. :~

You're not likely to suffer any injuries if your froe handle comes loose, but it would still be annoying. So better get your patent application in for "The Bushmiller's patent locking handle design", quick!
:U
Cheers,

Cheers,

Ian

We were pretty much posting at the same time, but I may have already raised some issues for you in that you will need a stick welder that has a 70V setting. I will be doing exactly as you have outlined for the handle so that it is trapped in the collar. Hopefully it will work out as planned. I will probably only make up one handle, being for myself. If you have a mig welder that may come with a high carbon wire.

One other froe is already spoken for and that person wishes to make his own handle ( and save some postage cost at the same time). I will make handles if required for the other two. Any hardwood will be ample for this purpose as they only have to be strong. The froe handle is not struck.

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

Bushy

your PM area is full

and what's the internal diameter of the sockets?


Ian
when I showed my last handle to a woodturning group I got lambasted for having the handle enter from the top
Researching I found reputable manufacturers doing it both ways.

I'm thinking that having the handle enter from the bottom it would be self tightening every time you bash the blade.

I wonder whether a dowel through the socket and handle a la drawbore might work?

[IanW]

.......when I showed my last handle to a woodturning group I got lambasted for having the handle enter from the top
Researching I found reputable manufacturers doing it both ways.

I'm thinking that having the handle enter from the bottom it would be self tightening every time you bash the blade.

I wonder whether a dowel through the socket and handle a la drawbore might work?

Nick, I don't think it's a huge deal, whatever works works. The old froes I've seen had handles inserted from below, like mattock & hoe handles. That made sense to me because if the handle goes in from the top, unless there is some very positive way to lock it on, bashing on the blade (as you do!) will tend to knock it off the handle. Inserting it from the bottom into a tapered eye makes it 'self-wedging' when you hit the blade.

However, if anyone else has used hoes & mattocks half as much as I did in my lost youth (we grew peanuts for a while & we boys were sent out all weekend to chip weeds out of the damn things), they'll know the heads frequently work loose. True, you just bash the end of the handle on something hard to re-tighten them, but it's a nuisance, especially when the wood gets compressed & glazed, and the heads will only stay tight for a few minutes at a time, & you're out in the middle of a 40 acre paddock with just soft ground around you! That's why I thought the way Paul's made his eyes might offer a very good opportunity to lock his handles in place very thoroughly.

Drilling a hole through the eye of a hoe and driving a nail or screw into the handle to hold them was quite a common practice in our district. The wood can still shrink or wear, & the handles get a bit rattly, but it stops them whirling around ..

Cheers,

[Bushmiller]

The last froe I made: That's the last froe before these four in this thread :rolleyes: had the handle inserted from the bottom ( I think I may have to chose my words carefully here), but that automatically precludes having a raised ridge above the collar. I was forever trying to relocate the handle. Of course I could have made another handle.

This is my bought froe from more than 25 years ago. It was made by a blacksmith.

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You can see the ridge above the collar and it has a timber wedge on the underside. The handle has never moved, although it has developed a longitudinal split on the other side, which is why I took the pic of this side.

Here you can compare to my froes. It is pictured with the smallest of the four. Note also the slightly breasted blade. It possibly helps when first trying to locate in the timber. Blade length is 250mm.

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The subject of wallopers has been raised (from outside this thread) and this always provokes a controversial but lighthearted discussion. These are three suggestions. Firstly my personal preference, which I call a maul but a bit too showy for some :wink: :

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Most of you will have something like this around the shed, but you want a really big one: Maybe with lead in the head too:

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And lastly this is what many use:

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I think the use of a piece of forest log probably came from the bodgers, who made bush furniture from green timber. The log may have been roughly shaped to form a handle hold using a drawknife, but sometimes it was just a piece of log of a suitable size. It has to be regarded as sacrificial which is why nobody is too keen to make a smart tool. Striking steel in anger with wood is never going to have a really good outcome for the striking tool.

Something that has just occurred for the more modern amongst you is the possibility of using a plastic, dead blow sledge hammer. I have generally found them a bit useless, a little bit like a Clayton's sledge hammer, but maybe it could work in this application.

Regards
Paul

[Chief Tiff]

WRT attaching heads; I have a wonderful little baby hand held mattock that used to love dropping its head onto my hand with every upwards stroke. The inside of the head was rough sand cast and the handle was pretty well burnished so hammering the shaft back on had limited effect, but I did discover that a liberal coating of polyurethane glue fixed it. When the glue foams up it happily fills all voids and gives a good, solid fit. Ok; the glue dribbles and foams out and looks a mess; but IT'S A MATTOCK, not a precision gardening implement such as those made by Grafa (http://www.grafa.com.au/products/handmade-copper-garden-hoe).

[Sawdust Maker]

Here's the froe handle I made late last year for Pac man and the detail at the end of the handle
it's about 600mm long and inserted from the top
It was wedged but this apparently worked loose with use. It now has a screw in it

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oh and the bludgeon to go with it - I imagine it is somewhat scarred now

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[Sawdust Maker]

...

The subject of wallopers has been raised (from outside this thread) and this always provokes a controversial but lighthearted discussion. These are three suggestions. Firstly my personal preference, which I call a maul but a bit too showy for some :wink: :

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..

I've decided it is called a bludgeon!

noun: bludgeon; plural noun: bludgeons
1.
a thick stick with a heavy end, used as a weapon.
"maces and spiked bludgeons"


synonyms:
cudgel, club, stick, truncheon, baton, bat, heavy weapon, blunt instrument

[Bushmiller]

Nice bludgeon and handle. Both on the smart side.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

A couple of links for froes:

This is on sharpening and as you will see there is no requirement for it to shave the hairs on your arm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzGaZSgHxS8

In this next one you can see the distinct advantage of free splitting timber, but in particular have a look at what I have hitherto called a maul and now am reliably advised is a bludgeon. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IiFWG2c1Y

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Apologies for drgging this out a little. Some of the tools builders out there seem to be able to just get on with the job and make excellent progress day by day, but I have disruptions, distractions, digressions and on top of that "Ah just cain't go no faster!" :(

I have done the heat treating and tempering. Now this was quite an experience. The blades are quite a bit larger than anything I have done before and it did bring home the limitations of the equipment at my disposal. Previously I have made up chisels, turning tools, plane blades and marking knives and none of these have been too demanding. The largest tool was a 300mm draw knife and I do remember it took a bit of heating. The problem is that with an oxy torch and a heating head the heat is concentrated over a small area, say 50mm to 75mm wide, and this requires continual movement to build up and maintain temperature. Fairly obvious really but in practice really quite difficult achieve.

That drawknife was probably 5 to 6mm thick. The froe blades are twice as thick and even the shortest blades is longer. I really did need a forge. I did experiment a little one evening with our chiminea and another piece of thick leaf spring, but I could not bring it to a temperature where I could see colour. Consequently I discarded that idea and I really wasn't keen on using the slow combustion heater in the house (except for the annealing process, which I had already done) because of the need to pluck the steel out of the fire in a red hot condition (around 700C to 750C).

I turned up the heating head on the oxy set as high as it would go and blasted away. It probably took five minutes or more at full pelt and really I only achieved a dull red, which is probably in the realm of 650C. I had a 20litre bucket of used oil for quenching and it was full to the brim. My normal technique is to plunge the heated steel into the oil in a repetitive vertical motion. The heated mass of steel had an enormous amount of energy now stored and each time I withdrew the blade it was enough to heat the oil coating the blade to it's flash point and it would erupt into flame. Quite spectacular and not a little unnerving!

By the time I got to the third blade, which was one of the shorter pieces I realised that I had to keep it completely submerged to eliminate the air. The vertical plunging technique is probably only really essential for thin steel such as a knife blade where swirling will create distortion. The longer blade that I quenched in oil was too long to wholly immerse in the oil because of the socket at the end so I could not prevent the oil igniting. Also as the bucket was plastic i had to be careful not to contact the bottom as if that melted a hole there would be a terrible mess.

By this point I had had enough. I was a little concerned that the flames would be enough to set off the sprinkler system and I did not want that to happen. I think it was unlikely, but that was not going to happen as far as I was concerned. Incidentally the 20L of oil was uncomfortably warm to touch after the quenching operation.

For the last blade, which I tackled the next day, I used water as the quenching medium. I was fully expecting the resultant steam to cause a minor explosion. I had two 20L buckets of water on hand and I donned a full face shield as well as my safety glasses. The whole thing was a non event: I quenched in one bucket and then into the second bucket. No problem at all and the expected steam explosion was merely are rather sleazy hiss.

After the heat treatment comes the tempering process and I heated the blades again, this time to a dark blue colour. This was to produce a steel akin to that of a cold chisel as I was not chasing the hardness of a wood chisel or a plane blade. In that I seem to have been successful as I can just file the blade. So I imagine that it is around RC 45, but this is only a guess.

Three of the froes are spoken for and I am keeping the fourth one. I had knocked up a handle out of some rubbish for my froe and gave it a quick field trial on some Bull oak.

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The other froes just need to be tidied and sharpened before sending out.

Regards
Paul

[Not enough!!]

Well done Paul, they look great, I didn't realise the amount of work involved, thank goodness I didn't try something like that:D

[Chief Tiff]

Looking very speccy there; well done!

How did you attach the handle in the end; it looks like you just silpped it on the end and wedged it in place?

I'd be interesetd to see how it performs on green timber; that big chunk of firewood looks pretty dry and hard to me. Was there any appreciable dulling to the edge?

[Bushmiller]

Chief

The handle is tapered at the top so that the collar can be hammered on for a tight fit. The intention was to put a wedge in the slit at the bottom only I was a little too smart for my own good and thought if I widened the kerf the wedge would go further in. That was a big mistake as the wedge merely bounce out several times! Just a decent kerf from a full size rip saw is sufficient. I would have been really peeved if the handle had not been a piece of scrap complete with nail holes.

Ahem! Firewood!!! That is a piece of prized Bull oak. :)

The Casuarinas are fairly good splitting timbers so no perceivable dulling, but I would not expect that anyway even with another type of wood. Remember the edge only needs to be sharp enough to "register" in the grain as the action is to force the timber apart. I might see if I have anything else lying around to try it on.

The other froes have been sharpened and hopefully will go out today.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Been great write up Paul [emoji106][emoji106].
Really enjoyed following along.
I unfortunately have nothing constructive to say about you being so destructive to what looks like a great piece of Bull Oak!![emoji12]

Cheers Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pac man]

It's an interesting place this where at a get together people can froe around a few ideas about wood splitters and the result is Paul taking up the challenge to make them. There were a few suggestions that 10-12 mmmay be overkill but splitting that bull oak shows the result.

I really appreciate the effort that's gone into these though no one expected that you would put life and limb at risk with boiling oil etc.

Looking forward to receiving the finished product. Thankyou.

(and thanks for posting to an unnamed Sydney wood turner so I can get the handle sorted)

[Sawdust Maker]

He has boiling oil ... now all he needs is a castle and barbarians at the gates!

[Bohdan]

WRT attaching heads; I have a wonderful little baby hand held mattock that used to love dropping its head onto my hand with every upwards stroke. The inside of the head was rough sand cast and the handle was pretty well burnished so hammering the shaft back on had limited effect, but I did discover that a liberal coating of polyurethane glue fixed it. When the glue foams up it happily fills all voids and gives a good, solid fit. Ok; the glue dribbles and foams out and looks a mess; but IT'S A MATTOCK, not a precision gardening implement such as those made by Grafa (http://www.grafa.com.au/products/handmade-copper-garden-hoe).

Had the same problem and my solution was to put the mattock into a 20 ton press and push the handle deeper into its tapered socket.

Worked beautifully and has never moved again.

[Bushmiller]

I have learnt a lot from this little venture. The main lesson is that I don't know nearly as much as I thought did.

I was going to show the replacement handle I made. I was going to tell you that the house we live in, which is on a slightly larger than normal house block, had been used to keep Arab horses. The previous owners ran, and still do run, an Arabian stud. They used to keep their favourite animals here and the rest of their animals on a property just out of town. In fact I recall one night, when we lived about 200m further up the road, saying I think I can hear a horse out in the front yard. Sure enough there was a horse in the front yard and it turned out to be the favourite stallion from the horse stud where we now live. We chased that damned horse around the town for about two hours before we caught it.

Anyhow the point of the story is that most of our backyard when we bought the house was stockyards for horses. I pulled them all down and salvaged some timber from the gates. These were ironbark and have been just sitting around for the last nine or so years. They had holes drilled in them but I salvaged the timber in between the holes and although it looked weathered I thought there would be some good strong stuff in the middle. They had been 100 x 50s and I only needed 50 x 50 for the handle (a little less than that really).

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It trimmed up as expected and of course had dramatic colour:

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but unfortunately it didn't work. It was an unmitigated disaster. I split off one Bull Oak billet (note: not firewood :wink: ) and then the b!@#$%^ &*()_+! broke :(

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Clearly the wood was not as good as I first thought. Some of you may recall that I am a big advocate of Spotted Gum for tool handles ( some might say "bespotted" :rolleyes: ), although in this instance I was trying to shed that mantle. I was searching the handsaw container for something else and I noticed sticking up out of the drum for handle material a piece of spotty entirely the wrong shape for any sort of handle other than a Gents saw. It was just poking out saying "Take me, take me." So I did what any red blooded saw collector would do: I took it and this is the result.

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and with some BLO applied

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Sorry about the mood lighting. My primitive shed at night time is even more primitive. I rely heavily on the moon. AND I don't know why the pictures are on their side. I did not take them that way.

Just on the subject of wedges, and this is for those people who are the recipients of the other three froes, it seems better to make the wedge the width of the bottom section of pipe otherwise it floats around uncontrollably like this:

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It means that in addition to the taper in the thickness a slight taper in the width will be needed also:

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On a good note, which is how I would like to finish up after the initial tale of woe, the wedge on the Ironbark handle held really well and after cutting off the handle above the collar I had to drill out the stub to dislodge the wedge. So although it looked ordinary, it was doing it's job very well.

One last comment is that I very slightly bevelled the inside edge on the top of the collar. I did this with all of the froes. This enables the handle to be tapered at this point rather than meeting a solid piece of timber and "butting" against the collar. I believe this works better as there is a compressive action on the timber instead of pushing. I used a piece of off-cut pipe the same diameter as the lower part of the collar to forcibly hammer the collar onto the handle. Then the wedge was positioned in the usual way: With extreme force!

A little bit of a protracted talk just to keep you folks salivating until the experts post pix of their froes :wink: .

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I probably did not explain well the tapering of the handle and the small collar the same size as the lower section of pipe that I used to hammer on the froe to the handle. The collar does not remain on the handle. The diagram below may help. It also may not load up well I will revisit tonight if that happens:



On a separate tack there is a ABC TV programme called Dirty Jobs. If you care to go through Iview, look for Series 3 Episode3, which is on a Shingles and Shake operation in the US utilising reject Westen Red Cedar logs. Automated, but still primitive, it is interesting.

Regards
Paul

[Not enough!!]

Found this as well, interesting how the sawn shingles bleed more than the ones made with the Froe, "cleaved" perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZA1J8RHltY
That would have taken a fair while to nail the little fekkers onto that roof:doh:

[Robson Valley]

I use western red cedar shake blocks as the wood source for most of my carvings.
By definition, they are 24" long by whatever, say, 12" x 8" or so. Fresh might be 40 lbs each.

I make the wood shapes that I want with a log mallet and a froe. Very pleasant wood-bashing.
In terms of control, +/- 2mm is not at all hard to accomplish.
True: WRC split follows the grain and as such, the resin ducts in the wood are not opened.
Sawn shingles, on the other hand, have everything cut open to "leak".
Even with your eyes shut, the aromatic difference is obvious.

Just after I bought some bigger split pieces ( 64" x 5" x 5"), my shop had a wonderful smell but it lasts only a few days.

[Bushmiller]

Hopefully this pic of the method I used to attach the handle will show up. There seems to be a problem when I scan an image. This time I took a photo.

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Regards
Paul

[Not enough!!]

After installing "said wedge" would one then soak "said froe" - wedge end in water, to swell the said wedge and handle, remembering to apply some rust inhibitor after the said soaking?

Just asking, thought it might help?

Nice drawing by the way Paul.

Stevo

[Sawdust Maker]

maybe soak in BLO

[Bushmiller]

The swelling of the timber theoretically will make the handle tighter, but I don't think you should rely on this as in time it will dry out agin so you will back to the normal moisture content.

I think the froe and handle will work well if it is made as tight as possible in the first place, particularly with the addition of the wedge coupled with the wider lower portion of the collar.

My version seems to be rock solid, although I have not been able to give it a workout since the Spotty handle was fitted.

Thanks Stevo for the compliments on my drawing, but it is not a skill for which I am renowned.

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

two pieces of steel arrived the other day (after a somewhat interesting journey!)

so today I turned a couple of handles

they were a snug fit (deliberately so), I ended up tapping (driving) the handles in with a small sledge hammer. The ring provided by Bushy was a godsend, thanks. I've yet to wedge the handles, this will probably happen tomorrow. I've also yet to turn my bludgeon

I've no idea what the timber is - it was donated to the local mens shed by a builder - I've suspicions that it might be some Indonesian rainforest timber. Anyway the handles have a coat of danish oil and will get a couple more over the next day or so.


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[Bushmiller]

Very nice handles Nick.

I sorta knew that with your turning skills, you'd show me up :) .

Seriously, they look good. How do you do that corkscrew effect?

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

Very nice handles Nick.

I sorta knew that with your turning skills, you'd show me up :) .

Seriously, they look good. How do you do that corkscrew effect?

Regards
Paul

Thanks for the compliment.
One of these Sorby spiralling tools (http://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/b320-spiralling-tool) - am still learning how to use it properly so these handles a perfect opportunity to drag it out