Questions about a second hand set up.

[auscab]

I was given this set up and would like to change it a little so I have some questions. The way its set up now it deposits dust into a 200 liter drum . I want it to deposit it into a 6 x 4 trailer .
Ive never seen it set up or running. I got it disassembled .

I wonder what its flow rate is. It looks big enough and powerful enough . But is it
The inlet to the cyclone is 200mm diameter so that will have to be the diameter of the main line down the workshop I assume . with 150 branches off that to the big machines. and 150 down to 100 into things like band saw collection

The diameter of the fan blades is 470mm
The motor is 7.5 HP
The RPM it says is 29.00 ? not sure about the decimal point there ? shouldn't it be 2900 ?

All assembled the whole thing is around 4250mm high . The change from drum to trailer will mean going higher.
The cyclone sits on top of a steel frame . Motor is on top of that and the drum sits below.

The collection drum at the bottom is sealed to the system so from what I know and read here, a trailer will have to be boxed in and sealed as well.

There is an outlet that exits the cyclone above the inlet pipe which is connects to what looks like some sort of muffler . The air that exits here will need to be connected to a filter of some sort ? What normally is acceptable at this end? I have a plenum box with 6 fine filter blanket sausage style filters. I think If this was fitted up inside the outside shelter that the rest of the unit will be in it may do the job . I just don't want that slowing down the air flow . The 6 sausages are 6 foot long and are the diameter of a 20 liter drum . Excluding the drums at top and bottom the area of filter material is roughly 6.7 meters long by 1.6 meters high.

This system will have gates at every machine .


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Rob

[BobL]

I wonder what its flow rate is. It looks big enough and powerful enough . But is it .
Straight Vanes = noisy but should have good efficiency
Straight (versus ramped) inlet wont have quite as good a separation - might need to use filters.
Back pressure will be higher than a BP design but large impeller size and motor power means it still should have plenty of suck.
My guess is it should do 2000 CFM in 9" ducting.


The inlet to the cyclone is 200mm diameter so that will have to be the diameter of the main line down the workshop I assume . with 150 branches off that to the big machines. and 150 down to 100 into things like band saw collection .
If you are a one man show and ducting runs are under about 10m then you could use 150mm ducting all the way.
Given the size of your shed larger trunk line is definitely worth doing. Unless you have a deep wallet 200 mm ducting and junctions will cost an arm and a leg so you might be better off going to 225mm (nominal, its actually 240 mm) PVC.


The collection drum at the bottom is sealed to the system so from what I know and read here, a trailer will have to be boxed in and sealed as well..
Standard trailers are notoriously useless as a receptacle as the sawdust builds up as cone and blocks the exit point from the cyclone and you do not want to be opening up the container and spreading the sawdust around inside the trailer every few days. If you don't want to be doing this then you need even more height between the trailer and the sawdust exit of the cyclone.

You might be better off using the 200L bin and setting up a lower effort system whereby the 200L drum is dumped into the trailer. BTW you should not wait for the bin to fill up but should be emptied at about the 150L mark, any more and you risk blocking the entrance and this will send all the sawdust out of the air exit.


There is an outlet that exits the cyclone above the inlet pipe which is connects to what looks like some sort of muffler . The air that exits here will need to be connected to a filter of some sort ? If you plan on venting it inside the shed you will have to use filters. Venting outside depends on distance to your house and neighbours etc,

The air filters you have will add some back pressure but are worth trying.

[auscab]

Thanks Bob . You are a man of many talents !

"Standard trailers are notoriously useless" That's good to know . If the trailer isn't a good idea I may swap back to just keeping it inside and venting the exhaust outside. It would save a lot of work .
Then like you say , just park the tipping 6 x 4 I have outside the roller door and unload the 200 liter into that.
Maybe put it outside at a later date if its a pain inside.

The exhaust could go out through the wall and my nearest neighbor is about one kilometer away and not within eye sight so if its just a non visible amount of particles coming out it will just settle out across a paddock.

I used to have a 200 liter drum on the last system and it got to be a hassle emptying it but that was with more guys working . 3 or 4 at times . now its 2. The pain with that system was paying for the 200 liter bags . Here I can load a trailer and maybe keep a tarp over it, or put a roof over it . The shavings will get used on the property.

And if 255 mm is the best way to go then I can use that and use the existing 150mm from the old system off that . It will mean buying 225 to 150 branches as well as the 225 main line and I could possibly use my 150 to 150 branches to bring two lines into one before the 225 to 150 branch?

I'm pretty sure my old system is just the storm water type PVC . Id better check on that.
That should be OK in the 225 NB shouldn't it ? Is the storm water PVC what is normally used ?

Rob

[BobL]

The exhaust could go out through the wall and my nearest neighbor is about one kilometer away and not within eye sight so if its just a non visible amount of particles coming out it will just settle out across a paddock.
Yep - I would give that a go first up.


I used to have a 200 liter drum on the last system and it got to be a hassle emptying it but that was with more guys working . 3 or 4 at times . now its 2. The pain with that system was paying for the 200 liter bags . Here I can load a trailer and maybe keep a tarp over it, or put a roof over it .
That's what I would do,


And if 255 mm is the best way to go then I can use that and use the existing 150mm from the old system off that . It will mean buying 225 to 150 branches as well as the 225 main line and I could possibly use my 150 to 150 branches to bring two lines into one before the 225 to 150 branch?
Yeah the 225/150 mm PVC junctions are not cheap but they will be cheaper than anything else in that size range.


I'm pretty sure my old system is just the storm water type PVC . Id better check on that.
That should be OK in the 225 NB shouldn't it ? Is the storm water PVC what is normally used ?
Yes - Stormwater is the one.

[QC Inspector]

Since you don't have the usual close neighbour issues you can mount the entire DC outside high enough to open the bottom of the collection bin to drop the dust into the trailer. You see lots of the bigger systems done that way for sawmills and larger cabinet shops. It would put all the noise outside too.

Pete

[auscab]

The noise would be good outside.
Ive come to my senses though and Ill put it inside and vent it outside . Its going to be to much work ATM to house it outside.
If I raised it to get a trailer under it , I cant imagine trying to put a roof on something 5.5 to 6 meters high 3M x 3 M square.
Ill just empty the drum into the trailer and it saves weeks of work . I can always shift it outside to the other side of the wall later and still keep it under the roof line of a later carport possibly.

Rob

[pjt]

Just a few thoughts from me.....
Given that the motor is 5.5kw, (2 pole=2900 rpm) a good size fan and a 200mm inlet indicates to me that it will have plenty of suck.
My cyclone empties into ~~ a 1m3 box with a door on the front, when it fills up I empty it out with a shovel/wheel barrow, not the best bit of design there! to improve this I want to make a box that goes inside the main box which the dust then empties into, then to empty I remove inner box (on wheels) and take to unload (compost making spot) and just upend to empty, the important thing here tho is to make a good seal between top of inner box and underside of outerbox.
I also find that the dust exits the btm of the cone at a wide angle (probably a fuction of exit dia/speed of rotation/etc) this means it fills the box nearly full before it starts filling up the cone, it will still be separating until the sawdust reaches the inner tube where it will start going out the exhaust, if dust is getting near full a quick shove with the rake to move dust away from cone btm will give me quite a bit more work time before empty.
Personally I think 200l is too small for a collection container, but you got to work with what you got!!!
Pete

[auscab]

Yes Pete I agree with the 200lt being on the small side. My old system worked well with its 200 lt but if it was left to long and not checked the shavings backed up along the pipes and was a real PITB to clear out . The whole lot was under a wooden floor and joints had to be pulled apart sometimes and cleared. If we checked it before starting a big run we knew when to go check and change just by instinct after a while . like i said before I used to have 200 lt bin liners and these cost me around $2.50 to $3.00 ea . There were plenty of times I had them stacked 20 high though . And I liked to treat the bags with care and get three uses from them . I had to take it to the horse poeple who liked it for stables . Unless it was full of Walnut shavings.

Its going to be great not having to buy bags ,and being able to use it all for compost and pathways and with the chooks. What I may do is get a few more 200 lt drums and have them waiting as a empty quick change over for when Im really going at it .

And thee "Plenty of suck" opinions are good to hear . I had stretched my old system as far as I could for years and it was failing at some of the later extra machines I was using out the back of the old workshop.

Rob

[clear out]

Rob you obviously need to upgrade your machinery from that old grey stuff.
How about I come down and give you a load of nice shiny new stuff in exchange for it.
H.
Good to see you're nearly up and running.

[auscab]

Rob you obviously need to upgrade your machinery from that old grey stuff.
How about I come down and give you a load of nice shiny new stuff in exchange for it.
H.
Good to see you're nearly up and running.

No shiny new stuff needed thanks Henry:)
Still a bit to do but we're running and doing shed stuff on the side when we can from now on .
Im just feeling at home on the PK after four weeks of use and it's pretty strange walking up and handling the little Bursgreen table saw now . It's tiny in comparison .

[auscab]

I got the unit together with the help from a block and tackle or two.

Welded a couple of pieces of steel across the base and the whole assembled lot now wheels around on the pallet jack . Every machine in the workshop is on blocks for moving around like this . I haven't settled on any positions yet and the introduction of any one thing can change the lot. Which is what happened when the Dust extractor went in close to where I think it belongs.

I wired up the motor and fired it up . Its loud!!

Without the drum fitted down below its sucking hard through the bottom . placing a thin board over it quietened it a little and so will the muffler on the outlet .

Im just wondering how dust manages to fall down into a bin with air going through this thing like it is ?
The air still has to come in and go out up a pipe through the middle.

The pipes and gates are going to slow things a bit, but really!!

It obviously must work , seems incredible though. This thing running open had the whole shed atmosphere rotating in no time .

Ive picked up reading here talk about back pressure but don't understand . Is it a good thing that helps them work and a way of tuning these machines ? or the less back pressure the better ?

Also , Im going to have the horizontal outlet, the muffler, running from the outlet on the cyclone to the right hand shed wall and out between the roof and the first purlin down . The whole unit is going to be moved to the center of that right end wall section right of the roller door, so that the main 245mm inlet pipe runs down the middle of the right hand side of the shed, the way its pointing now. The whole thing will be raised from its base as well to line the outlet up with the wall sheet above the high purlin and below the final gutter purlin or roof purlin . I forget the name of it .


I'm just wondering what happens in the event of the system over filling and if material blocked things up and settled in the muffler , the horizontal pipe ? once it gets cleaned out below will it just blow it outside and clean itself?
I was unsure which direction to mount the outlet at first. Horizontal or turn it right and go down close to the cyclone and then out . There is an L shaped pipe for the outlet and I couldn't work out which end it belonged at but I think now its supposed to go at the far end of muffler and point at the ground on what will be the other side of the wall sheeting .

Here is some pictures.

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Air power holding up the Spade
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This must be a dealer ?
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And the Makers label.
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Rob

[BobL]

Its a straight vaned impeller which is why it is loud and a good reason to have outside.


I'm just wondering what happens in the event of the system over filling
The sawdust will blow out of the exit past the muffler and into your yard.

BTW holding the spade is nothing special.
With an 8" cross section thats ~50 square inches.
If the vacuum pressure is 10" of WC, that's around 0.36 PSI so 50 square inches should hold around 18 lbs of flat object.
Even a 3HP can do that.

What really matters is what vacuum it can continue to hold while moving air.
This is where a bigger impeller wins over a smaller one.

[pjt]

Im just wondering how dust manages to fall down into a bin with air going through this thing like it is ?
The air still has to come in and go out up a pipe through the middle.

With the inlet open and the cyclone btm open air will come in thru both and out the exhaust, if you seal off the cyclone btm air will come in the inlet and go out the exhaust, the same vacuum exists (for our purposes) at every point within the cyclone, even if you put a box/bin/bag under the cyclone the same vacumm exists within the box/bin/bag, your collection box/bin/bag has to be strong enough or have internal support to resist collapse, essentially when you turn it on you create vacumm on one side and atmospheric on the other which is trying to squash it and the bigger it is the more area the greater the squash.
Another point here is any leak thru the box/bin/bag will take with it a certain sized dust particle which will go out the exhaust.
A way to think about how a cyclone works is think of the eye of a cyclone (the storm type) being where the clean air comes thru and all the dust is flung out to the side walls of the cyclone/cone (spinning cloud) where gravity/friction works on the dust and it falls, there are some good animations out there in googleland, try how does a cyclone work.


Ive picked up reading here talk about back pressure but don't understand . Is it a good thing that helps them work and a way of tuning these machines ? or the less back pressure the better ?

Less is best here, basically it is resistance to movement, air is moved thru a pipe where it has to slide over the side walls of the pipe and the air itself has resistance to movement, so anytime you move air thru a pipe or bend or some sort of fitting or machine port the air is forced to to twist, turn and slide, we measure this resistance as a loss of pressure and the fan has to be able to produce pressure in excess of these losses to move any air. I doubt yours will have any issues but you still need to be aware of where these losses occour, for e.g sharp bends are bad, you want gradual changes to changes in pipe sizes or any machine hoods you make, good reading on Bill Pentz's site on all this.

Also , Im going to have the horizontal outlet, the muffler, running from the outlet on the cyclone to the right hand shed wall and out between the roof and the first purlin down . The whole unit is going to be moved to the center of that right end wall section right of the roller door, so that the main 245mm inlet pipe runs down the middle of the right hand side of the shed, the way its pointing now. The whole thing will be raised from its base as well to line the outlet up with the wall sheet above the high purlin and below the final gutter purlin or roof purlin . I forget the name of it .


I'm just wondering what happens in the event of the system over filling and if material blocked things up and settled in the muffler , the horizontal pipe ? once it gets cleaned out below will it just blow it outside and clean itself?

If it is coming out the exhaust in a steady stream in the event of a cone filling, when you empty the cone it will just blow out what was left in the exhaust.


I was unsure which direction to mount the outlet at first. Horizontal or turn it right and go down close to the cyclone and then out . There is an L shaped pipe for the outlet and I couldn't work out which end it belonged at but I think now its supposed to go at the far end of muffler and point at the ground on what will be the other side of the wall sheeting .

My guess would be to keep the exhaust up high in the shed then bring it down when outside the shed wall.





Rob

Pete

[auscab]

Thanks Pete , Thats very interesting!
The vacuum inside the system is the magic ? Amazing .
So if a fan in a system was spinning but not hard enough to create as big a vacuum , shavings could just fly in and out the exhaust ?
Not drop down?
I'm going to go read on how the storm type of Cyclone works as soon as I get the time.

Rob

[BobL]

Thanks Pete , Thats very interesting!
The vacuum inside the system is the magic ? Amazing .
So if a fan in a system was spinning but not hard enough to create as big a vacuum , shavings could just fly in and out the exhaust ?
Not drop down?


Its more about maintaining sufficient centrifugal force to fling as much of the dust outwards onto the sides of the cyclone where it slides down and into the collection bin while only the air and the very finest dust is drawn in a spiral upwards in the middle of the cyclone and out of the impeller.

When the collection bin fills up the cyclone outlet is choked and sawdust then falls into the upwards air spiral and out of the impeller.

[pjt]

Thanks Pete , Thats very interesting!
The vacuum inside the system is the magic ? Amazing .
So if a fan in a system was spinning but not hard enough to create as big a vacuum , shavings could just fly in and out the exhaust ?
Not drop down?
I'm going to go read on how the storm type of Cyclone works as soon as I get the time.

Rob
The vacuum is part of how a cyclone works, another way to visualize it is that the fan creates an empty space by pushing air out the exhaust, the air that is outside the system tries to rush in to fill the empty space that is inside the system.

If there is high resistance to flow (small dia pipe, long length of pipe, lots of fittings, long flex hose, etc) the air can't get in as fast as it wants to so this gives us a high vacuum number, with the system inlet fully blocked (the spade) this gives us max vac but no air flow, the opposite is fully open which gives us max flow and a low vac number, to take Bob's value of 10" and lets say that was measured at the fan inlet but we then took another reading at the cyclone inlet it might read 8.5", What happened to the 2.5"? It is "consumed" by the internal resistance of the cyclone.

Each metre of pipe/hose, type of fitting, all have a value of loss (back pressure) the more stuff we hook up increases the back pressure and if you hooked enough stuff or did something like put on a bit of 32mm dia hose, the original 10" is all consumed and you get very little flow, (the spade), so if there is minimum flow there is minimum air speed inside the cyclone and little centrifugal force so particles are not held out against the cyclone wall and remain entrained in the airstream and out the exhaust they go, if the air speed is high enough the particles are separated from the air stream (centrifugal force) and held out on the cyclone wall, friction and gravity do their thing and into the bin they go.

Pete

[Lappa]

I believe the 10" Bob was talking about in his reply was static pressure ie. system blocked. In that case the the 10" should be the same at the fan inlet or at the cyclone inlet unless there is an air leak. You will only get the drop through a cyclone if there is air flowing.

[pjt]

Well yes, I was just taking 10" of WC as a number, Auscab could well have 10" of WC with air flowing, the main point of my reply was to try to expand a little on why and how "back pressure" occours.
Pete.

[Lappa]

I just wanted to point that out as I didn't want Auscab's hopes to get up as 10" velocity pressure on his system equates to approx 4400 CFM :D

[auscab]

I just wanted to point that out as I didn't want Auscab's hopes to get up as 10" velocity pressure on his system equates to approx 4400 CFM :D


You guys are not getting my hopes up cause some of this talk is over my head .:U I'm interested but don't want to get to far into it . I did that last time. And did it with Vacuum pressing veneers. And the stars . And all the rest . And then I forgot it all .Well most of it . Just as long as the dust ends up in the bin and that will do. And I don't get ripped off buying pipes .
Man The suppliers know how to charge for the big size PVC! I have a plumber mate who will get me some at trade price thank goodness. That sort of mark up from trade to public is BS.

Rob

[Lappa]

Looking at that beast you have Auscab, I don't think you'll have any problems with flow. Know what you mean about plumbing prices. The worst near me are Reece - I queried a price on some items and they said if I had an account I'd get it cheaper. So I said - right oh, open an account for me. Their reoly - can't do, you don't buy enough!
I've found Trade Link better for prices but still no where near as cheap as pipeonline in Perth.

[BobL]

For a large order it might be worth getting a shipping quote from pipeonline.

[Lappa]

I've spoken to them on this subject. Their more than happy to satchel over smaller items and that certainly is worth it, but freight on larger items such as pipe is a killer. When I was looking for 125mm pressure pipe, their price plus freight equalled what I could buy it from here but that shows how good their prices are.

[auscab]

Know what you mean about plumbing prices. The worst near me are Reece -

I've found Trade Link better for prices but still no where near as cheap as pipeonline in Perth

.

Reece were my first try , so things can only get better .
Price was still cheap from Pipeonline for you even though they are in WA and you are in NSW?

Edit . My Plumber Mate is using Trade link . Massive difference from the price from Reece.
For a 6 M length roughly $280 down to $155

Rob

[auscab]

For a large order it might be worth getting a shipping quote from pipeonline.

Ill give it a try .

[Lappa]

Rob, I didn't buy from them I just drooled over the prices on their website:D . See my earlier post. They were happy to satchel small items but I never got a total price (including freight) on Elbows or junctions, which are the costliest items. I may be wrong, but I got the feeling that they supply some distributors over on the eastern seaboard so weren't real fussed on sending pipe. The prices I got on freight for two lengths of 125mm pressure pipe brought the pipe to a similar price as what I could buy it here for.

[auscab]

Hi Guys . Back with another question .

First . Ive finally got things organized and moved tonnes of stuff around to get excess machinery out of the way to an outside hay shed storage area. Arranged the remaining machines into their working places and I'm ready to buy pipe to connect the beast up . Since this thread was started the Cyclone unit was installed outside on a slab and wired up so its running and under its own small roof . I did a thread on that in the vintage machinery section if you want a look . The Dusty (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f299/dusty-234094)

So now that I'm ready to buy 225 PVC for the main pipe connection to my 200 mm inlet on the cyclone and 225 / 150 branches to go off in different directions an option has come up which seems to good to pass up .

A factory worth of similar size machines to me with metal Gal main line at 300mm and 150mm and 100mm branches joining into it has become available to me .

15 meters of 300 mm and 50 meters of 100 and 150 with enough branches for all my machines and floor dust sweep gates . Some larger duct as well . And its cheap! Compared to the PVC I may have to buy anyway. $750 in steel compared to at least $2500 in PVC for starters .
I do have to go pick it up, 2.5 hours away and take it all down though . Which is fine .

The questions .
If I connect 300 mm main line up to this cyclone I'm going to have to cut the inlet back to open it up . Yes ?
The inlet is currently 200mm at the Green arrow and if I cut and shape some 300 to fit around the more rectangular section back where I circled in Green and Red the circumference their is roughly 880 mm so an area roughly off 616 cm2 . I may be able to get a few cm back from that even ? For a little more CM2.
Edit . just realized Its probably not worth it because of the limiting exit CM2 Yeah ?

490925

The outlet of this cyclone is a rectangle of 18 x 29.5 cm so 531 cm2

490926

And the 300 main line if I go the metal stuff is 706 cm2

The current 200 mm inlet is 314 cm2

So will it still work OK ? The limiting factor is the exit at 531cm2.

I assume its just going to be a bit more free to suck a bit more and hopefully the dust still drops out into the drum or box I make .

Rob

[riverbuilder]

Tradelink or Eagles are the cheapest, Reece are far and away the dearest. Have you enquired about metal ducting? Or spiral metal?

edit: ignore that I just read the last post. I have a similar system to yours except my machine is in a huge cabinet with hanging and swinging filter socks and a small drum at the bottom. I have metal ducting it works well and it’s easy to unclip the sections and change it around. I have 250 mm main trunk and the volume that goes through is phenomenal, once it gets down to a gate and 100 mm it feels like much stronger suction but the volume is less presumably. One of the muppets that hang around the shed put his hand over the metal end of a gate and it cut a nice round circle into his skin and almost broke his fingers, so it’s powerful. One thing I noticed that the efficiency improved when the joins in the duct were sealed with a wipe of silicone between the flanges. On the transitions and ones I thought I might move around I used a self adhesive foam tape about 1/4” wide around and it works well too.

[QC Inspector]

I'm not the math wizard of others here but I plugged in some of your numbers into this calculator (http://www.freecalc.com/ductloss.htm)and changed from one size to the other.

Using the 225mm PVC (10") with 100' of duct (close to 30 metres) and 2,000CFM for the air flow and no other factors like elbows I got 1.618" of water loss and a velocity of 3668 FPM. Repeating it and changing to 12" (300mm) Galvanized duct the result was .745" of water loss which is good but the velocity becomes 2547FPM which is not enough to carry the dust. You want at least 3500FMP for horizontal ducts and 4000FPM for vertical. So the PVC would work but the metal duct won't.

Understanding your main lines might not be that long it does point to the bigger ducts being too big to carry the dust to the collector even if multiple ports were open. Bob or one of the more learned members can confirm. You might want to take a pass on the deal unless you can confirm it will work correctly.

Pete

[BobL]

I'm not the math wizard of others here but I plugged in some of your numbers into this calculator (http://www.freecalc.com/ductloss.htm)and changed from one size to the other.

Using the 225mm PVC (10") with 100' of duct (close to 30 metres) and 2,000CFM for the air flow and no other factors like elbows I got 1.618" of water loss and a velocity of 3668 FPM. Repeating it and changing to 12" (300mm) Galvanized duct the result was .745" of water loss which is good but the velocity becomes 2547FPM which is not enough to carry the dust. You want at least 3500FMP for horizontal ducts and 4000FPM for vertical. So the PVC would work but the metal duct won't.

An important factor to bear in mind is, unless other blast gates are kept open, it will be near impossible to get 2000 CFM thru most machines so in practice the volume might be closer to half that as will the air speeds so correct sizing becomes important.

The nominal 3500/4000 FPM figures covers all types of sawdust, including large volumes of very large chips such as softwood coming off big machines such as a 24" thicknesser.
Luckily In practice I've found even as low as 2000 FPM is enough for sanding dust, 2500 FPM is enough to carry bandsaw and table saw sawdust coming from a 19" BS and 12"TS, and 3000FPM is enough for a 10" thicknesser especially if chips are from Aussie hardwoods ie harder ie chips are generally smaller and even though they are denser the overall weight is lower.

The problem is not just fall out, but the resuspension of sawdust that has dropped out inside dusting after a stalled/stopped air stream. Once that saw dust drops to the bottom of a horizontal pipe the resuspending it is what requires the higher air speed. Nevertheless I agree with QCs overall summary that going too large on the main might be a cause for subsequent regret.

BTW 9" PVC is not 225mm - instead its closer to 240mm ID which while not that different to 300 mm but it will still be significant in terms of air speed.

[auscab]

One of the muppets that hang around the shed put his hand over the metal end of a gate and it cut a nice round circle into his skin and almost broke his fingers, so it’s powerful.

Ill remember that.

Reminds me of when I was fitting pipes to the pump /cleaning set up of a pool . I had read about taking care kids not get exposed to the suction end . I thought "How bad could it be?" after I had it running I ( tested) put my hand over the 2" suction pipe and found out ! I instantly stopped a 6 Meter or more long 2" pipe full of water going flat out. Thank goodness I had read a bit and sorted that before the kids got in .

[auscab]

Thanks Pete and Bob . looks like going cheaper larger steel may not be the way then . Its just going to be a less efficient slower air flow in the main line then.

I just drew this up as a way of visually getting my head around it . The pipes seem only slightly larger but the cm2 is a big jump with the 300 .

490932

[auscab]

BTW 9" PVC is not 225mm - instead its closer to 240mm ID which while not that different to 300 mm but it will still be significant in terms of air speed.

Yeah thanks Bob your right . That was a surprise. I just rang and checked with the local Tradelink .

225 stormwater PVC is 250 OD and 240mm ID ! Thats pretty misleading !

[auscab]

This cyclone of mine has a round intake aperture of 200 mm diameter which is 314cm2. And a rectangular exit 180 x 295 which is 531cm2 .

Are these things designed with smaller a diameter on the intake and larger on exit for a reason ?

Would it be better if the intake was more closely matched to the exit size ?

Ive now got two options .

I can buy new metal spiral duct product which comes in 200 id to match my intake for the main line . Option 1

Or I can go with the 225 PVC with the 240mm ID and alter the intake of the cyclone to match that. Option 2


491007

option 1 is 314cm2 intake to 531cm2 exit
option 2 is 452cm2 intake to 531cm2 exit

The area of the intake line on option 2 is over 25% larger , incredibly ! And still under the exit size.

This is a good thing isn't it ? Its speeding up the intake and not slowing
it as the 300 D main line I spoke of earlier was going to do ?

Edit. I didn't ask the Spiral Duct company but they may even sell a 250 ID which works out at 490cm2

[BobL]

This cyclone of mine has a round intake aperture of 200 mm diameter which is 314cm2. And a rectangular exit 180 x 295 which is 531cm2 .
Are these things designed with smaller a diameter on the intake and larger on exit for a reason ?
Would it be better if the intake was more closely matched to the exit size ?
Doesn't really matter as long as the outlet is not smaller than the inlet.


Ive now got two options .
I can buy new metal spiral duct product which comes in 200 id to match my intake for the main line . Option 1
Or I can go with the 225 PVC with the 240mm ID and alter the intake of the cyclone to match that. Option 2


I wouldn't mess with the intake diam as you might upset the separation efficiency.

[Vann]

...A factory worth of similar size machines to me with metal Gal main line at 300mm and 150mm and 100mm branches joining into it has become available to me.

15 meters of 300 mm and 50 meters of 100 and 150 with enough branches for all my machines and floor dust sweep gates . Some larger duct as well . And its cheap! Compared to the PVC ...
...Ive now got two options .

I can buy new metal spiral duct product which comes in 200 id to match my intake for the main line . Option 1

Or I can go with the 225 PVC with the 240mm ID and alter the intake of the cyclone to match that. Option 2...
Maybe take the factory lot of steel duct and ditch the 300dia. section. That leaves you with 50 metres of 150 & 100 duct.

Buy the new 200 metal spiral duct for the main trunk. Use the second-hand 150 and 100 for branches and connections to individual machines.

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

[auscab]

Maybe take the factory lot of steel duct and ditch the 300dia. section. That leaves you with 50 metres of 150 & 100 duct.

Buy the new 200 metal spiral duct for the main trunk. Use the second-hand 150 and 100 for branches and connections to individual machines.

My tuppence worth.

Cheers, Vann.

I have considered that but the price wasn't going to be any different, and with the time to go get it plus the price, it works out that just buying new was a better deal.

Also , Its 2.5 hours away from me . And Ive been getting more accurate updates and some great videos sent by a good woodwork Mate who has been visiting the site regularly . What I first thought was 300 main line is something more like 450mm from the fan , Its not measured just a visual guess.
It starts at roughly 450 and drops to 350 300 250 and then 200 main line. The 200 is pretty short.
And about 14 or 15 branches coming off it . With a couple of nice old Gal floor sweep parts as well going up 150 pipe up the walls.
So just the branches are not worth the effort I decided.

But there may be one last ditch idea that Ive been discussing today with said Mate.
Ill know more about that Monday .

It would mean using the whole system, from the other end of My workshop and trying to find a use for what Ive already installed .
Which has SWMBO telling me off !! Sounds great to Me and Mate :) .

I have ideas of one day moving the wood turning lathes out under a semi enclosed lean to up the west end where the already installed cyclone is . So that the wind blows through . I had that at the old workshop . I loved Semi outdoor wood turning with a strong fan nearby .
That installed cyclone could also suck at the lathes , the three of them . One of them , the big faceplate lathe needs good extraction at the cutting contraption I made for it . It machines MDF and creates a huge amount of the worst type of wood dust Known to Man I think . So that first cyclone would fix that problem right up. There is a good use for it . There's a lot of other stuff to do first though .

Rob

[Chris Parks]

Rob, have you resolved your collection drum sizes yet? I installed a cyclone into a commercial situation a while ago and the biggest issue is the 200 litre drum is nowhere near big enough and can need changing after using the straight blade thicknesser on one job. If it is not changed then the cyclone backs up and spits shavings out of the exhaust. You can get an air tight lock that would enable dumping into a trailer, I have never seen one and don't know anything about them apart from they exist for larger commercial systems. To overcome the problem on the one installed we are going to put a Y in the drop and use two drums and see how that goes. It might not be a perfect solution but if one drum fills before the other which I think is absolutely guaranteed then when that drum backs up it will all fall into the the other drum. If I am really lucky it might work really well but time will tell on that.

Found a video on rotary air locks Explore Our Rotary Airlock Valve Test Centre | Videos | ACS Valves (https://www.acsvalves.com/rotary-valve-resources/videos/watch/acs-valves-rotary-airlock-valve-test-center)

[auscab]

I was going to either weld 2 x 200 liter drums together as high as I could go Chris .

Or go Larger and weld up a square frame , rivet Ply that's well caulked and sealed to it and put 4 wheels on the bottom .

Since I raised the unit there is something like 7 to 8 Feet of space under the outlet . Its just a matter of "Can I handle such a container full of sawdust ? "

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Then there is the problem of how would I know its full ?
We used to use a 200 liter drum at the old workshop . It was a drop box with plenum box after (right name ?) with multiple filter socks hanging . 150mm main line and a small Richardson cast iron blower .
A bit of a dangerous blower because of the internal bearings . Thankfully they never had a meltdown .
Anyway we got quite used to judging when to go check the drum . As long as you checked and knew what you were starting off with . Bit of a Pain really though .

I was just thinking yesterday if its possible to use a pad that works like a set of scales . That is a weighing scale but with a remote display . I was wondering if it was possible to have a display showing the weight of the dust container or the dust in the container. Set it to zero at empty and watch it grow as machining is being done .

[QC Inspector]

Bob, naturally, :wink: has played with bin load sensors. https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/dust-bin-sensor-216073?highlight=load+sensor He may have more to add.

Look into pelletizing / briquetting machines. It compresses the sawdust into pellets or briquettes that can, if of clean material, be burned for heat or barbecuing/smoking. If disposing of the waste, reduces the volume. There are lots on Alibaba and the like in all sizes. There was a small one locally on FB here for making feed pellets for well under a grand. You could either dump the waste into a hopper and run until done or use the airlock Chris suggested, possibly using a grain auger to fill a hopper.

Pete

[BobL]

Bob, naturally, :wink: has played with bin load sensors. https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200/dust-bin-sensor-216073?highlight=load+sensor He may have more to add.

It worked OK at home but I never got it to work at the mens shed because the VFD upset the electronics. Have since worked out how to fix it but the last thing I need are more projects.

[BobL]

It worked OK at home but I never got it to work at the mens shed because the VFD upset the electronics. Have since worked out how to fix it but the last thing I need are more projects.


What I first thought was 300 main line is something more like 450mm from the fan , Its not measured just a visual guess.
It starts at roughly 450 and drops to 350 300 250 and then 200 main line. The 200 is pretty short.
And about 14 or 15 branches coming off it . With a couple of nice old Gal floor sweep parts as well going up 150 pipe up the walls.
So just the branches are not worth the effort I decided.

I've looked at several "used galv systems". The first one sounds a lot like yours, 450mm main going on down. There was heaps of it, enough long ducting that it would have required a 20ft long truck to carry it all. It had been advertised on/off gumtree for a couple of years starting at about $400 - prices dropped until it was advertised as "a couple of cartons - must take the lot" I went to look at it twice (second time with a truck) but there was just too much of it.

The second one was an entire DC system (DC, loads of ducting, blast gates and several floor sweeps), from a 1960's High School wood working class room that we stumbled across on one of our mens shed scavenging expedition - we went there mainly looking for scrap wood and metal. On first look, apart from only 4" drop downs to all machines, it looked like a goer, well at least the 9" trunk, 6" sub trunks bits. We got it all back to the shed on a 10ft flatbed trailer (borrowed from the school) and it sat there for several months while I payed jigsaw puzzles with it. In the end we decided that adapting it to suit our setup was going to be too much work and went for PVC. We sold the galv system to another mens shed for $100.

[riverbuilder]

With regard to the drum container being too small, in one of our workshops years ago the old man sewed up two enormous socks from calico type cloth and mounted the outlet section of the dust collector up on the wall about 12 feet up from the top of two 44 gallon drums, then used the two big socks to connect the two. Usual metal strap arrangements to seal them. When we were only doing tablesaw stuff the drums got emptied each week or whatever. Then when there was serious wood machining happening, the drums and socks filled up with shavings and it was a simple matter of backing the ute up and taking the socks off the drums and directing the waste into the tray of the ute, easy. Then cover and take them to the happy people at the horse stud or the piggery. It worked pretty well.

[auscab]

I've looked at several "used galv systems". The first one sounds a lot like yours, 450mm main going on down. There was heaps of it, enough long ducting that it would have required a 20ft long truck to carry it all. It had been advertised on/off gumtree for a couple of years starting at about $400 - prices dropped until it was advertised as "a couple of cartons - must take the lot" I went to look at it twice (second time with a truck) but there was just too much of it.

The second one was an entire DC system (DC, loads of ducting, blast gates and several floor sweeps), from a 1960's High School wood working class room that we stumbled across on one of our mens shed scavenging expedition - we went there mainly looking for scrap wood and metal. On first look, apart from only 4" drop downs to all machines, it looked like a goer, well at least the 9" trunk, 6" sub trunks bits. We got it all back to the shed on a 10ft flatbed trailer (borrowed from the school) and it sat there for several months while I payed jigsaw puzzles with it. In the end we decided that adapting it to suit our setup was going to be too much work and went for PVC. We sold the galv system to another mens shed for $100.

Thanks Bob . I think the cheap aspect is affecting my judgement on this . I like to live with an idea and think it right through . The 450 mm set up and huge fan is a lot of system and a long way away and then every branch is in the wrong place so 15 Patches And a lot more repairs as well probably .


With my set up cyclone .
Ive got to do more accurate plans before I order anything , and a few more position adjustments of machines.

This is a rough sketch of my lay out .

If I were going with 225 PVC then the 240 ID would have to be matched to the inlet . Enlarge the inlet .

So If I go Metal Spiral duct rather than just connect the spiral duct at 200 I could do what Id have to do with PVC and
start with a 4M run of 250 at inlet and then step it down to 4 M of 225 then 4M or 6M of 200 and finish with 150 .

150 Branches all the way except near top right where a 225 or 250 branch connects the tenoner on the right.

The other big dust producers are on the right as well . They are conecting in at the 225 part of main line . Down from tenoner is two table saws Rectangular buzzer with a bandsaw next to it and final on right of main line is the thicknesser .

Everything on the left from bottom up is two lathes , three RAS Two connected I think . Spindle moulders, router table, Band saw and chisel mortisers . with some low dust producers on the top wall .

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That would be a better thing than 225 PVC all the way with 150 Branches except on tenoner wouldn't it ?

I don't know how the stepping down of a main line helps things but it looks like its always done on industrial set ups .
Its got to be a good thing ?



Rob

[BobL]

If I were going with 225 PVC then the 240 ID would have to be matched to the inlet . Enlarge the inlet .

Increasing inlet size may affect cyclone separation efficiency. Also it is the primary choke point which contributes to determining the max amount of air the impeller can pull. If you do enlarge it make sure you measure the motor current to make sure you are not overloading the motor. Unlike a Table saw, where the motor is loaded in short bursts a small overcurrent does not damage the motor but a small overcurrent over a long period on a DC (constantly loaded) can easily damage the motor.


So If I go Metal Spiral duct rather than just connect the spiral duct at 200 I could do what Id have to do with PVC and
start with a 4M run of 250 at inlet and then step it down to 4 M of 225 then 4M or 6M of 200 and finish with 150 .[QUOTE]
That would be a better thing than 225 PVC all the way with 150 Branches except on tenoner wouldn't it ? [/quote
The step between 200 and 225 is pretty marginal in most situations I wouldn't bother about it.
I don't know how the stepping down of a main line helps things but it looks like its always done on industrial set ups .
Its got to be a good thing ?

Stepped down trunkline sizes are needed to maintain the recommended 4000 FPM especially when there are multiple users constantly using large machines that generate large amounts of dust up and down the line. However, when there are only 1-2 intermittent users it makes little difference and just generates more work in setting up. In a medium/small shed, where machines use 150mm ports and there is only one user then there is no need for any steps and 150mm can be used all the way from machine to impeller.

Fine gradation step down/up trunklines are not possiblewith PVC because there are fewer duct and fitting sizes.
Lets say you want a stepped PVC trunk ie 450, 300, 225(240), 200, 150 and you want to install machine connections at all sections long the trunk. Well, there are no PVC duct or fittings for 450 and 200 mm sizes.

For 24" sanders and large thicknessers I'd be looking for 2 x 150 mm connections.

Not sure about the nature/use of your workshop.
How many full time users, how many hours a week, how many cubes of timber a week, and what fraction of timber is being resawn/thicknessed etc? My assessment of the air flow requirements of most mens sheds, even with 20+ users, don't need large industrial stepped systems especially when mot of teh time the are just making/repairing/turning the odd piece of furniture, kitchen utensils, toys etc.

[auscab]

Thanks Heaps Bob :2tsup:.

In the past I had multiple users on machines at times . Now its just mostly Me and its one machine at a time .

So you answering me, sometimes twice I know , really helps sort my decisions. Thanks for the reply's and patience .
I cringe at thinking how many times your saying some of this stuff . To guys like me who should go read what you've already said
somewhere here. There's so much though and It don't stick for long with me .

I'm wrapped to now know more about the step down diameter info . Looks like just 200mm metal spiral and 150 branches then . Easy !!

2 x 150 area is pretty close to a 200 area pipe . Two 150 or a 200 coming down onto a 24 " thicknesser hood well designed will suck like hell on that dust .

Rob

[BobL]

Thanks Heaps Bob :2tsup:.
In the past I had multiple users on machines at times . Now its just mostly Me and its one machine at a time .

Even if you do have more than one users from time to time I don't think it's worth laying out the $$ for those situations.


So you answering me, sometimes twice I know , really helps sort my decisions. Thanks for the reply's and patience .
I cringe at thinking how many times your saying some of this stuff . To guys like me who should go read what you've already said
somewhere here. There's so much though and It don't stick for long with me .
Don't worry I'm used to it - I was a high school teacher for a fewyears and then a Uni teacher for 20 odd years so had to repeat the same things at least from year to year and then multiple times in the same year, often many times on teh same day.


I'm wrapped to now know more about the step down diameter info . Looks like just 200mm metal spiral and 150 branches then . Easy !!
2 x 150 area is pretty close to a 200 area pipe . Two 150 or a 200 coming down onto a 24 " thicknesser hood well designed will suck like hell on that dust .
Yeah - keeping it simple is the way to go.

[auscab]

Bob .

The Spiralduct product comes standard with what they call a 1 or 1.5 CLR bend .

1 or 1.5 Center Line Radius .

For 1.5 CLR I'm pretty sure I understood right when they described that as being 1.5 x the diameter of pipe as the radius.

So a 100 mm pipe looks like this yeah?

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Their bends are made like this . And their pipe is made for all sorts of uses not just wood dust

491234



They can also supply larger custom bends for 10% extra .

Is 1.5 CLR Optimal for a wood dust system?
Or what CLR would be optimal for the 150 and 200 mm diameter pipe I will use ?

I understand the bigger the better but Id say the 10% extra quoted goes right up if I ordered say 10 CLR .

Thanks Again

Rob

[BobL]

They can also supply larger custom bends for 10% extra .
Is 1.5 CLR Optimal for a wood dust system?
Or what CLR would be optimal for the 150 and 200 mm diameter pipe I will use ?
I understand the bigger the better but Id say the 10% extra quoted goes right up if I ordered say 10 CLR .


One thing to bear in mind is very large radii of curvature ducting can be a PITA.
- Ducting going through walls also becomes more difficult.
- If you want to locate a machine close to a trunkline the larger curve will not permit the machine to be located that close.
- Very Large curves can also intrude into vertical space and consume wall space.
This is hard to explain but imagine a machine next to a walkway where ducting has to go over the walk way before dropping down to a machine using a very large radius 90º bend. For the machine to be located next to the walkway the 90º bend curve will have to start somewhere before or over the walk way and by the time it bends down to the machine it will have crossed the walk way at a lower height than the ducting. This can get in the way of materials or personnel.

Same on a wall, especially if you want to use that wall space for something like shelving etc. Instead of ducting going around say a set of shelves a large radius bend will need to sweep across that wall space.

Improvements in efficiency decreases as the CLRs increases.
The CLR for air beyond which there is only marginal improvement is about 2R.
If you are moving ore or a slurry or a solid stream of wood chips then that's another thing.

If the machine is a low dust production machine eg: DP, a small bandsaw or small sander, I have little reservation in using a 1R bend for ducting leading to that machine.

[auscab]

Still playing with machine positions and getting prices comparing New PVC, Metal Spiral Duct and smooth metal clip together Duct .

Surprisingly spiral metal is cheaper than PVC ! There is a big difference in PVC from the same supplier chain as well . Depending on which store you ring . And smooth Metal clip together costs the most. And is the nicest .

I did start the re construction of My collection bin today. The red 200 Liter is what came with the unit . Because I raised the unit as high as I could I have much more space under for a larger bin so I welded a second bin under the first . Cut the base out of the first and the top off the second and welded them together. They wouldn't weld so well as I kept burning through the rolled end and into what ever is in the roll , Old oil or something that smells like Bitumen when its on fire . So I did about 6 two inch long runs rather than the lot and filled the rest of the outside join with plastic filler. When it was hard, I filled the inside of the join with silicon . Could have had it painted today but the spray gun needed a good clean out as usual. Its soaking overnight and paint will be tomorrow .
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It fits just under the outlet so the bar with the hose over it needs cutting out .

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Its around 1740 high now . The window in its lid will be of no use up so high. I have been thinking of a glass window each side around the 1500 high spot . Something that with a glimpse while walking past if its above that, if I cant see the light from the other side Ill know its getting full .
I do have an old front door customer light sensor that let me know when someone came in the front door of the shop . If I could fit that up then Id get a ding dong or buzz to go off . A flashing led light would be better though if it could be connected.

I'm just going to see how good I am at judging when it needs a change first. The outlet for the cyclone will shoot any shavings right out near my backdoor so Ill soon see if its over full .

For starters Ill have a 6x4 trailer nearby and will be up ending this into that I think . Or I can take it out back a bit further and dump it where it can be used later . Just got to see what its like handling it when its full .

Rob

[BobL]

The window in its lid will be of no use up so high. I have been thinking of a glass window each side around the 1500 high spot . Something that with a glimpse while walking past if its above that, if I cant see the light from the other side Ill know its getting full .
I do have an old front door customer light sensor that let me know when someone came in the front door of the shop . If I could fit that up then Id get a ding dong or buzz to go off . A flashing led light would be better though if it could be connected.
Light sensors are usually not much good as even a small amount of dust can fool them into thinking they're full.

[riverbuilder]

I’m going to fit one of these in my bin Blueline Automatic Float Switch | BCF (https://www.bcf.com.au/p/blueline-automatic-float-switch/329215.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInceg6urN7wIVDa-WCh0vtAyjEAQYBCABEgLM0_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

hook it to a siren or buzzer with a light, and it will work fine.

I have one in the bilge of the boat, high water alarm, but it was $200 for basically the same thing. I’m certain the shavings will lift it ok, the water does easily.

[auscab]

Light sensors are usually not much good as even a small amount of dust can fool them into thinking they're full.


Yep . Maybe Just the simple line of sight thing is best then .

[auscab]

I’m going to fit one of these in my bin Blueline Automatic Float Switch | BCF (https://www.bcf.com.au/p/blueline-automatic-float-switch/329215.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInceg6urN7wIVDa-WCh0vtAyjEAQYBCABEgLM0_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

hook it to a siren or buzzer with a light, and it will work fine.

I have one in the bilge of the boat, high water alarm, but it was $200 for basically the same thing. I’m certain the shavings will lift it ok, the water does easily.


Thanks . Let us know if it does work . I cant imagine how saw dust would be able to lift a switch though .

[BobL]

Thanks . Let us know if it does work . I cant imagine how saw dust would be able to lift a switch though .

I'd be surprised if it worked. Also a float anywhere near the top of the collection drum may interference with fine dust separation. This is why its better to empty the collection container well before its full.

[auscab]

I think I have a good solution to knowing when the bin is full .
I have this old closed circuit monitor and camera I used to use in the shop . With it fitted into a box that locates over the window on top and a light to illuminate the inside of the bin I can keep and eye on it as I'm machining . Just flick it on when I need to check it. The Monitor can be placed up on a wall out of the way close to where I work with the big volume dust producers like the Buzzer and Thicknesser.

Id just need a stick or something that fits inside the bin maybe with some visible tags that get covered as the dust level rises .
Maybe just painted dots on the side will do ?

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[BobL]

Id just need a stick or something that fits inside the bin maybe with some visible tags that get covered as the dust level rises .
Maybe just painted dots on the side will do ?


My experience is that everything gets covered in dust and its hard to see what is going on visually - even a transparent strip up the side of the drum is not easy to see without looking up close.

[auscab]

I placed my pipe Spiral Duct order four weeks back .
Made the trip to Melbourne to do a few things Yesterday and picked up my pipes today for the trip home .
Ive got enough to do a stage one section, which gets me well on the way by connecting the worst dust producers . A 16M main line of 200mm and 5 branch lines coming off to 7 machines .
This will be connecting the Tenoner, two Table saws, 16" Buzzer and 30" Band saw , 500 wide Thicknesser and Twin drum sander. There is extra sections and pipe in this order as possible left overs which will go into the stage 2 things like Lathes , spindle Moulders and copying machine . I thought dividing it up into stages made sense as figuring it all out for one big order would be getting to pricey. And working it all out accurately as one order seemed a bit to hard as well.

Until today I had not handled the product. Ive got to get it in the shed and figure out how I'm going to make the hangers to hang it from the roof . Ive got 12mm rod, 12mm threaded rod , Gal strap and nuts and bolts for this . Once its in place I'm making Blast gates . Got to decide on a basic design .
I bought 200 and 150 pipe and instead of having branches manufactured within joining sections it was cheaper and gave me more flexibility to add the branches on as patches after the main line is up. Place a 45 degree 200 over the straight 200 main line , mark the cut out piece to come off . Cut it out and screw or rivet and seal the branch over it . 4.2 Meters in the air . I think it'll be easy on my scaffold . It couldn't be done up a ladder. It probably saved me forking out $800 doing it that way . And I'll spend half an hour x 10 cutting and joining . Which will turn into 1hour x 10 or more typically when reality sets in I suppose.

Here's some Pics.
Dispatch section at Spiral duct .

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Go around to rear for pick up .
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Robs load. The pipe with the dent at the bottom was swapped out for a good one, without me asking . This stuff suffers from rough handling .
I wish I had though of taking a IBC crate without the liner for the trip back before going down . Like they have put on wheels .
Good idea discovered to late .
494806

Glad I decided at last minute to take the tandem trailer and not load the pipes onto the timber racks of the ute.
They recommended laying the 4M lengths with a 150 inside a 200 and screwing the two together at one end for the timber rack method of transport . The 2M sections would have ended up in the tray.
I think it would have been a bit OTT trying that .

Got it home .
494807 494808
The next few weeks will be good .
FINALLY getting dust extraction back !

Very Happy :U.

[GreggMacPherson]

This cyclone of mine has a round intake aperture of 200 mm diameter which is 314cm2. And a rectangular exit 180 x 295 which is 531cm2 .
..........Would it be better if the intake was more closely matched to the exit size ?

The engineers have an idea they apply to ducting, called the Hydraulic Diameter (Dh), which is the diameter of a circle with the same resistance as a given rectangle.

Dh=4A/P where A and P are the area and perimeter of the rectangle.

Your fan and cyclone were designed or matched such that the Dh of the rectangular outlet is 223mm with effective area of 391cm2 .
So my feeling is you made the right choice keeping with 200mm main duct to match the original inlet design. My guess is that the effective area of the rect outlet was deliberately a bit oversized to allow for turbulence caused by the fan.

My tuppence, as they say.

[auscab]

So my feeling is you made the right choice keeping with 200mm main duct to match the original inlet design. My guess is that the effective area of the rect outlet was deliberately a bit oversized to allow for turbulence caused by the fan.



Thanks Gregg. That's nice to hear. Its good that we have a place we can ask this stuff.

[auscab]

Here's some pictures of my progress so far.

The final Machine lay out prior to starting pipe work, taken from up on scaffold which I welded up for the job.

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Scaffold was made from 40 x 40 x 3 Hollow section that I keep seeing on Gumtree for cheap $ . I built this over a year ago for this job .
The height was adjusted so the pipes sit on the handrail up top 50mm under their fitted finished height. That worked out well . A friend gave me some wheels he had for it to roll around on . They turned out to be a great idea:2tsup:!
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I didn't buy hangers from the pipe supplier . We made these hangers up and saved some money . The bender I got from H&F came in handy for this job . I think I need 13 all up for this first stage of 7 machines. The first 8 are for the mainline . They are the only ones that are all the same length. Each one after that is a different length depending on where they go on the roof position.

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We drew a layout on the floor and transferred important info positions down or up with a Plumb Bob from a string line up high .
There's a lot in doing that? Avoid Sky Lights , keep them away from pipe joints , Miss the branch locations. I realized near the end It was just a fluke that I missed the lights with some of the runs . We screwed in the timber hanging beams and ended up with spot on locations for hanging the steel hangers to the beams . The Hangers were fitted and the main line went up. Days of pretty hard work . Many trips up and down ladders . I got used to being up that high .
A good moment was walking along the floor after the hanging brackets had been fitted to the beams and sighting through the string line to see the dead center of each hanging bracket hole was Spot on ! The rods that go through the holes had 50mm each way of adjustment up or down to level the pipe.

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I found out that screwing these pipes together is only Just OK for the straight lengths . The screws strip the steel out pretty easy but still lock the pipe together. A bead of silicon is applied then the joints are wrapped in duct tape . With the pipes firmly locked by the hangers I think even just duct tape would be good enough for the straight section.

When things got a bit more demanding fitting the first Branch that goes off to the tenoner the screws proved to be useless! These branches want to spring off the main line so I needed good holding power and a bit of hammer work to the springy parts .
I moved onto trying 4.8mm blind rivets and wished I had done that from the start. They are a huge improvement . Ill be using them for the rest of the job and can redo the screwed main line if there was ever a problem . I don't thing there will be a problem though .

The branch is placed and marked internally for the cut out with jig saw. Fitted on and sealed. You can see the springy part sitting off the main line that needed shaping .
The rest of that line was made up on the ground then fitted up high.
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Main line is fitted to cyclone now as well with a Dektite keeping the weather out .

Four more branches to fit next. Then its blast gates .

Rob

[DJ’s Timber]

Looking good Rob :2tsup:

[riverbuilder]

That bloody drum sander sticks out like a sore thumb, can’t you paint it grey or something? :U

[auscab]

That bloody drum sander sticks out like a sore thumb, can’t you paint it grey or something? :U


LOL , It does doesn't it ! It might be a quick thing to do. Ill think about it. Ive got to many paint job projects though .
I have a replacement for the thicknesser off to the side that's about to be painted grey . Ive got to finish the extraction off first then get back to finishing a couple of woodwork jobs before I can do the thicknesser.

[auscab]

Got another section up today.
A 150 branch that will go across the floor and divide at the end to take dust from the two table saws.
I'll have to make a wooden cover so it doesn't get stood on. Thinking of making cable operated Blast gates for the two table saws.

I saw this Youtube video of such a blast gate build . Its a beauty !
Amazing Latch Mechanism for Remote Control of Blast Gates - Woodworking - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4G3K7dLAjg)

Ive also been test running the cyclone . Its a good sucker! So far anyway . With those two lines open there is a ferocious amount of air going through .
It'll be interesting to see what its like down the other end at the thicknesser branch with them all (5 branches) open. Then close them off one at a time from the cyclone back.


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Rob

[auscab]

First stage main line and branch lines are up and close to the machines that needed extraction first. I connected the thicknesser and have been using that and the duct that goes to the floor for table saws as a floor sweep.

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Suction is fantastic . But the noise of the unit outside had me worried .
I went to the front gate and got my son to turn the unit on a few days ago when it was pretty windy rough weather. It sounded like someone was taking off in a plane down behind the shed ! Its a long way to neighbors, 1 KM and more, but when its still and quiet here I'm amazed at how sound travels .
So I got to work and fitted up the muffler that came with the unit . I thought it may make some sort of a difference but was shocked at the huge difference it made. This unit would have annoyed people 1 km away and now with muffler on it cant be heard at our house 100 meters away . I think it took 90 % of the offensive sound away . And there must be a difference to suction but I cant detect it .

I think the muffler was originally fitted with the fat long part coming off the cyclone first and the elbow which has two curved vanes inside at the corner was at the end but it made sense to fit it the way I did pointing down and close to the stand that holds the cyclone up . I just wanted to get it going without having to build a way of supporting it . Pointing up with a roof above the outlet would be good but id not be able to see if dust was coming out when full and I don't want dust on the roof where rain water is collected either . I may keep it this way and weld some support back to the stand at some stage. And Ill probably build more covering around the upper unit which will keep weather of it and even make it a little bit quieter .
That Muffler is lined in perforated sheet metal inside and has some sort of padding or wadding behind that .

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Blast gates have evolved as I'm doing them . The first one was like I made them for the old workshop . Masonite for the gate with ply body and no collars . Bad idea . The old workshop gates were on the wooden floor . The gates lasted well with Masonite because the gate slid on the floor and couldn't bend . We kicked them open and closed for probably 15 years with hardly a problem .
The first one sorted out my sizing and I went to all plywood . Then I turned collars in double thickness ply to add to each side to give strong fitting and gluing area for the pipes. The Ply is around 17mm so its a gate and side spacers of 17mm , two covers of 17mm and the collars add 4 x 17mm to the thickness . So they are 119 thick . The gate is 600 long. and the body is about 290 x 290 I think . I'm thinking of painting them when I get the time .

I glued this first one onto the pipe on its bottom side with Sellys PlastiBond . Good gap filling and tough stuff and ill be using more of it where its needed. Mostly Ill be gluing in short joiners each side .

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First gate on the thicknesser is all bracing Ply . Just laminated pine . The next two gates have collars made with Birch ply on Bracing Ply body . A lot nicer to turn and a touch thicker. I'm mostly going back to all Bracing ply though in pine as I want to save the remaining birch ply and the pine plywood seems good enough .

[riverbuilder]

I’m surprised you didn’t try the whole system without gates at all, Iworked at a place once and they had a similar setup to that cyclone and no gates on any machines and it worked brilliantly.

[auscab]

I wouldn't want to go connecting everything up then have to take it apart to add gates . I think it will be OK to have two or three machines open at times depending on what Im doing but there will be times I want max power. And Ill be adding a fair bit more to the system later. So I want good gates. It would be nice to not have to have them for sure but it wont work well without them by the time I'm finished .
The last set up I had I had gates on all machines but I was really stretching the limits of its power with some of the last machines I connected down the end of the line . I had to go empty and clean filters a lot more to keep the end machine working . The filthiest dust producer was at the end of the line . Routing MDF on a faceplate lathe . Having something that I can tune to my needs is what I want .

[auscab]

I made a lifting tower for emptying my drum . Its 2 x 200 Litre welded together.
It was a pain getting it empty in a trailer 1M off the ground with the drum at roughly 1800 high for a total of 2.8 M with nothing but me tilting it and poking at the opening with a small spade.

Here's some pictures .

The tower is welded steel and is 40 x 40 x 3mm SHS. Its second hand and gets advertised on Gumtree . Sourced by the sellers from the port of Melbourne . I think it comes in some sort of packing inside shipping containers . It comes in 2.4 lengths .

The rope block and tackle Ive had hanging around for years . Now its got an important job . I wonder how long the natural rope will last being used outside like that ? I can always spray the steel with some sort of oil and replace rope if it fails.

First test was today with a small load in the drum . Its pretty good . I can hold the rope with one hand and push the drum to empty up the middle of the trailer. Its going to be quite a bit faster compared to what I was doing before.
That last picture was seeing how high I could lift the drum . It emptied at a lower height . The lifting tower is 4 Meters tall .

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Another job will be to re line that great little tipping trailer I have with some second hand Polycarb or roofing iron maybe . Its second skin I had put in years ago welded on top of the first one is disintegrating fast with wet sawdust sitting in it making things worse. Maybe Ill even put a light weight roof on it.

[QC Inspector]

:2tsup: I suggest adding some handles to the drum to make it easier to push/pull into place. You might be able to attach the lifting rope to it too.

Pete

[auscab]

:2tsup: I suggest adding some handles to the drum to make it easier to push/pull into place. You might be able to attach the lifting rope to it too.

Pete


Yeah I'm thinking of adding to the drum . I will see how the webbing around the bottom half goes and thought a bit of strap iron bolted tight art the join would be better. With a ring welded at that point for lifting . I need some strap iron just the right size though. The webbing will be a good start and easy to move up or down to experiment with the lifting point first .

Two small wheels that take the weight when the drum is tilted forward may be good too . Though I only need to move the drum forward about 800 mm before tipping it to rest on the trailer. Ill possibly just put up with shuffling it over.

A hand on top when the lid is off is the way Ive been moving it . A handle 2/3 up from bottom could be good though . As a way to shift but also as a way to hook it to the trailer before it gets lifted up . It could stop it rolling back if the wheels are on it . I'm trying not to dent the drum when it goes over onto trailer with rough treatment as well . The right made up handle could help there too .

[Vann]

In a similar vein, this is how they used to coal steam locomotive at smaller NZ Railways engine depots.

Note the design. The pivot is a little below half-way up the side (maybe 40% up from bottom). This allowed the operator to begin tipping the bucket without loosing control (as would happen if the pivot point was much lower). I've seen these in use and they work well.

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Obviously wood chips are lighter than coal, so a lower pivot might be worth experimenting with. But having the pivot not far below centre also made it easier to tip the empty bucket back up again.

My tuppence worth....

Cheers, Vann.