Floating floors - what to do?

[Glider]

My 1930 apartment has squeaky wooden floors. We've removed the carpet and plan to refix the existing Baltic Pine boards with screws, lay down 12 mm acoustic sheeting, and then lay a wooden floor, preferably pre-coated Spotted Gum.

The question is should we lay 20mm T&G boards or some type of thinner floating flooring? I've heard that thin floating floors can be a bit springy under foot. I also wonder if the 20mm boards can be hidden nailed through the acoustic insulation or do we need to add a layer of yellow tongue or plywood?

I'm really flying blind with this one.

mick

[rwbuild]

Ply first then fix flooring to it. Make sure you get the correct high density acoustic insulation for the floor.
http://www.timber.net.au/images/downloads/multires/acoustic_floors.pdf

[aldav]

Ply first then fix flooring to it. Make sure you get the correct high density acoustic insulation for the floor.
http://www.timber.net.au/images/downloads/multires/acoustic_floors.pdf

OK to use 14mm thick boards?

[rwbuild]

As the sub board on top of the insulation...NO.... way too much flex with all those joins but 14mm sheet as sub base but it has to be premium ply at that thickness to eliminate sheet distortion, basically 1st grade marine ply, new formwork ply would be ok ,14mm flooring yes as the finished floor....yes

[Glider]

Thanks for the link, RW. I imagine new formwork ply would be a fair bit cheaper than marine ply. Any ideas about yellow tongue?

Do you think screwing down the old squeaky boards is worthwhile? I was wondering if the layers above them would be sufficient to spread the load.

The current plan is a layer of AngelStep 484 Gold 12 mm first, 19mm ply or similar and then 20mm spotted gum t&g.

mick :)

[rwbuild]

Yellow tongue will be ok, definitely screw down the old floor first.

[GraemeCook]

The current plan is a layer of AngelStep 484 Gold 12 mm first, 19mm ply or similar and then 20mm spotted gum t&g.

mick :)


Hi Mick

Your plan to increase the floor thickness by a total of 51 mm will have a lot of flow-on consequences:

Presumably it will be done in all rooms simultaneously otherwise you will have a step of 51 mm between the old and new floor heights,
Will you also raise the skirting boards - if not, then you will reduce their visible height by 51mm - could be desirable, or not?
You will need to cut a clearance strip off the bottom of every door so that it can swing freely - including the front door. Will the new floor thickness then be visible under the front door?
Will you raise all kitchen cabinets and re-position them on the new floor height? This may require alterations to plumbing, wiring and tiling. If you leave cabinets where they are and raise the floor around them, you will reduce the effective bench working surface heights, which may be uncomfortable.
What about the bathroom?
What is your ceiling height? Will the reduction be significant?


So many questions from such a seemingly simple job.


Cheers

Graeme

[Glider]

Your plan to increase the floor thickness by a total of 51 mm will have a lot of flow-on consequences:

Presumably it will be done in all rooms simultaneously otherwise you will have a step of 51 mm between the old and new floor heights,
Will you also raise the skirting boards - if not, then you will reduce their visible height by 51mm - could be desirable, or not?
You will need to cut a clearance strip off the bottom of every door so that it can swing freely - including the front door. Will the new floor thickness then be visible under the front door?
Will you raise all kitchen cabinets and re-position them on the new floor height? This may require alterations to plumbing, wiring and tiling. If you leave cabinets where they are and raise the floor around them, you will reduce the effective bench working surface heights, which may be uncomfortable.
What about the bathroom?
What is your ceiling height? Will the reduction be significant?


Thanks Graeme, all good points. All the furniture and carpet has been removed from the flat. The old bathroom will be stripped out and replaced & a second bathroom created on the other side of the apartment.

- The plan is to use the same flooring system throughout the flat, except for the bathrooms of course.
- Skirting boards are about 400mm high.
- Also about 400mm from the bottom of each door panel so no visible difference. The bottoms of the architraves stand proud so they'll have to be cut under with an all purpose tool. We can deal with any gap under the front door with a draught stopper.
- We are actually moving the kitchen to the other side of the flat. The flooring will be laid first and then the benches installed at 1000mm height which we greatly prefer.
- Ceiling height is 2700mm.

The big question is whether the multi-layered system insulates for sound as well as the old carpet with foam underlay. Certainly the squeaks will disappear. Unfortunately our neighbour below won't allow acoustic testing so we have to take a punt.

Cheers,
mick

[Junkie]

- Skirting boards are about 400mm high.
- Also about 400mm from the bottom of each door panel so no visible difference. The bottoms of the architraves stand proud so they'll have to be cut under with an all purpose tool. We can deal with any gap under the front door with a draught stopper.

400mm or 40mm?

[woodPixel]

Why not pull up the old floors?

If the downstairs guy is being a dick about it and won't help, don't concern yourselves. I'd just pull up the floors, lay down insulation between joists, put down yellowtongue then nice floorboards above.

I did this with two flats in Double Bay and it worked a treat.

You certainly wont get the loss of 50mm from all those sedimentary layers!

It was a super fast job too.

[GraemeCook]

All good, Mick. Essentially a rebuild, rather than just lifting the floor.

My place also has baltic pine skirtings - 400 mm in the public rooms and 300 mm in the rest. They just do not make stuff like that anymore. In my view, it would be a shame to effectively cut that 400 mm to 350 mm by covering it with flooring. Is it feasible to raise the skirting?

Sound insulation is so difficult to get right - sound sneaks through the smallest holes. Years ago an employer had a board room built with extremely expensive lead/foam veneer panelling. The panels may have been soundproof. The aluminium extrusions in which they were mounted certainly were not. A $250,000 failure.

Woodpixels suggestion might be worth looking at unless the joist space is shared with the apartment below's wiring. Is that wiring rated to have insulation laid ontop? Potential fire hazzard and/or legal risk?

My major concern remains the threshhold from outside. Perhaps you will need to design in a new door step?

Finally, how good is the baltic pine floor? I keep visuallising 80 year old forest grown baltic against modern materials. One option, maybe a pipe dream, might be to carefully lift the entire floor, fit yellow tongue, the acoustic tiling, then refit the old baltic floor. It will match perfectly with the baltic skirting, architraves and doors.


Love these sorts of challenges.

Graeme

[FenceFurniture]

It may be a little late in the planning stage for this, but Hempcrete may well be an excellent solution to fill up in between the floor joists with for acoustic insulation (as well as heat/cold). It comes in bags that you mix up into a dryish fluid and pack in to wherever it's needed. If the website is to be believed it's a wondrous building material.

Hempcrete.com.au: The Australian Hempcrete Technologists (http://www.hempcrete.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3&Itemid=2)

[FenceFurniture]

Finally, how good is the baltic pine floor? I keep visuallising 80 year old forest grown baltic against modern materials. One option, maybe a pipe dream, might be to carefully lift the entire floor, fit yellow tongue, the acoustic tiling, then refit the old baltic floor. It will match perfectly with the baltic skirting, architraves and doors.

To be honest Graeme, I find Baltic flooring a giant PITA. I have it here and it looks.....ok I guess (but no better than Cypress)....where it isn't disintegrating from normal traffic. Then it becomes a peeling pain in the butt. It's just too soft for flooring IMO. If you have a rolling office type chair on it then it becomes a nightmare, even with softer polyurethane wheels.

[woodPixel]

Finally, how good is the baltic pine floor? I keep visuallising 80 year old forest grown baltic against modern materials. One option, maybe a pipe dream, might be to carefully lift the entire floor, fit yellow tongue, the acoustic tiling, then refit the old baltic floor. It will match perfectly with the baltic skirting, architraves and doors.


Why not? Label each board with a number, pull it up in sections and do it from left to right.

Difficulty will be getting it up without it breaking or pulling the nails through. Maybe one could test this on a "discrete corner" (in a cupboard?)

[ian]

not to be a wet blanket, but ...

do you actually own the baltic pine floor? or is it part of the common property?
Ditto with respect to any plumbing and wiring that might need moving or installing.

assuming the body corporate is on side, perhaps the best option is to remove the existing flooring and strip the skirting boards.
Reinstalling the boards to accommodate a thicker floor is not that difficult.

[rwbuild]

DONT PULL UP THE OLD FLOOR, it will expose any electrical wiring or plumbing and if there is a micro-millimetre crack anywhere in the ceiling of your downstairs neighbor as well as running the chance of miss placed foot /material you will have the mother of all litigation to deal with and as mentioned, it loosely comes under the common property rule. A real pain in you know where with these old houses.

[GraemeCook]

To be honest Graeme, I find Baltic flooring a giant PITA. I have it here and it looks.....ok I guess (but no better than Cypress)....where it isn't disintegrating from normal traffic. Then it becomes a peeling pain in the butt. It's just too soft for flooring IMO. If you have a rolling office type chair on it then it becomes a nightmare, even with softer polyurethane wheels.

My 130 year old Baltic pine skirtings, architraves, windows, doors and picture rails look great. The floors also look great, but they are Tas oak - mainly messmate.

On reflection, Baltic pine floorboards would look great for a short period, but this be rather disfunctional and look crap. Agree with you, FF; probably why the original floor was carpeted!


Cheers

Graeme

[GraemeCook]

Ian and Ray

You are both absolutely correct. Legal issues would make lifting a floor extremely hazardous.

I should have thought of that!



Cheers

Graeme

[rwbuild]

There is also another major consideration. The extra load (weight) of basically 2 layers of flooring on top of the existing may very well exceed the design criteria of the existing floor framing. The size, spacing, spans and species of timber and structural rating (eg: F11) of the floor framing together with both live and dead load calculations and a floor plan of the unit under you and your floor plan would need to be calculated first.

You also indicated that you are relocating the bathroom area to another location. This will involve pulling up the floor in that area and possibly penetrating the floor framing for drainage which has the affects of my previous post.

Suggest you pm me with a contact number and we can have a chat.

[Glider]

The building is company title so theoretically the company owns everything, unlike strata. Firstly, the space between the bearers contains wiring and secondly the existing flooring is part of the structure of the building whereas anything laid on top of it is seen as a furnishing. So the old floor has to either remain intact or we need the Board's approval. As a director myself, I know their view will be that Mick enjoys a new floor and they receive a solicitor's threat about fraud on a minority and diminution of a shareholder's Class Rights. No contest. This direction has already been well researched. Mate, this is the Eastern suburbs of Sydney. We don't have neighbours, we have plaintiffs and defendants. O for life in the bush; but it's hard to beat Sydney for all it offers.

We think the loss of 20% of the skirting height leaving 350mm will be visually OK.

Graeme, there really isn't a doorstep per se. There will be a difference of 50mm in height between the terrazzo on the exterior landing and our place. We'll avoid a trip step with a chamfered section at the front & back doors. It's certainly a tricky area but at least one other flat has done the a similar thing 20 years ago.

The AngelStep will be laid carefully and taped along all joins and edges.

It's been a pretty interesting project, especially when we are 5 floors above the deck. Not cheap but worthwhile to renovate without losing the period detail & feel of the place.

Thanks for all the advice and thoughts. This forum's a knockout.

mick

[Glider]

There is also another major consideration. The extra load (weight) of basically 2 layers of flooring on top of the existing may very well exceed the design criteria of the existing floor framing. The size, spacing, spans and species of timber and structural rating (eg: F11) of the floor framing together with both live and dead load calculations and a floor plan of the unit under you and your floor plan would need to be calculated first.

You also indicated that you are relocating the bathroom area to another location. This will involve pulling up the floor in that area and possibly penetrating the floor framing for drainage which has the affects of my previous post.

Suggest you pm me with a contact number and we can have a chat.

We are adding another bathroom rather than relocating the old one. The extra bathroom will have a raised floor to accommodate the plumbing. Two other flats have done the same thing.

I think we are well within load limits but it's a valid point you make. Two architects have signed off on this plan. Sadly the first one died but the other is a university medal winner with serious international experience.

I'll send a PM.

mick

[Glider]

It's been a long haul but the reno is finally finished. The kitchen was moved to the other side of the flat into the old master bedroom. We put down 10mm of best quality AngelStep acoustic insulation over the existing Baltic Pine floorboards, then 19mm Formply taped between sheets and to skirting boards. Then another 2mm layer of rubber was topped off with 14mm Sydney Blue Gum engineered flooring. The thresholds were filled with solid Blue Gum floorboards. The floor was lifted 45mm so all doors needed adjusting and exterior doors were finished with rebated timber rather than metal angles. The acoustic transmission to our downstairs neighbour has been reduced to all but very low frequency sounds like heavy footfall.

Our luck held with the bearers in the additional bathroom and all plumbing went under the floor.

mick

430222430221

[rrich]

Two bits of advice.

Avoid any 'Pre-Coated' type of flooring. It will show EVERYTHING. Every nick, scratch and depression will be painfully visible especially in an incident lighting.

Talcum Powder! On whatever will be the sub floor and in the tongue and grooves. The Talc will reduce the friction and the likelihood of squeaks.

[NCArcher]

Very nice Mick. Nice spot too.

[FenceFurniture]

They've done a great job Mick! Is that marble in the kitchen the same as the, ah shall we say "other" marble?

Is Chef happy with the kitchen?

[Lappa]

Took me a while to see the floor. I was admiring the view out the windows:D
Nice job!

[Glider]

They've done a great job Mick! Is that marble in the kitchen the same as the, ah shall we say "other" marble?

Is Chef happy with the kitchen?

Thanks Brett. Our joiner is an ANU graduate and it shows. The Hoop Pine cupboards came up really well. The "other marble" is still in the shed at the farm looking for a project or a good home. I'm currently making a jarrah stand for pot plants to put on our loggia.

Chef designed the kitchen down to the last shelf & drawer. It's her shed.

mick :)

[Glider]

Took me a while to see the floor. I was admiring the view out the windows:D

Thanks Lappa. It's not a bad spot.

mick

430286

[FenceFurniture]

The "other marble" is still in the shed at the farm looking for a project or a good home.

Crikey boss! That is some of the best woodworking gear you can get - many uses.....

[Glider]

Always happy to share, Brett.

mick

[FenceFurniture]

Always happy to share, Brett.

mickHeh heh, I carried 9 slabs of granite around for >20 years through too many house moves before I finally found a use for 2 of them.