H&R moulding plane irons.

[planemaker]

I have an upcoming project to make myself a partial set of hollow and round Moulding Planes. Initially I plan to start within the lower range of H&Rs 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2", and if all go's well expand that range to include 3/4" and 1". The wood species being trialed for the main stock including wedges will be rift sawn Snakewood Dellinnia. The following photo's show the recently completed lower range of H&R irons. The initial stages of annealing and later re-hardening the irons were included during this process.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0239_zpsyfcpncik.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0239_zpsyfcpncik.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0240_zpswxivyc9i.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0240_zpswxivyc9i.jpg.html)

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0184_zpsdmquzxxc.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0184_zpsdmquzxxc.jpg.html)

[ian]

Curious why you shaped the irons before making the plane bodies.
All previous advice I've read on this subject is to make the plane body then shape the iron to fit.

[planemaker]

Ian; then you best follow their advice. :2tsup:

Stewie;

[ian]

BUT
even if you are following our own path, I, and I'm sure others, are interested in how you allowed for the future bedding angle when shaping the irons.
If you have found an effective way it would be good to share it.

[planemaker]

Ian; on a positive note, when was the last time you posted photo's of your own work.

Stewie;

[Lappa]

Stewie - why the attitude? A question was asked, hoping for an answer so everyone reading would benefit and you take offence.
I thought the idea of a forum was to help others and pass on knowledge, including answering questions in a civil manner.

[Kuffy]

I have never made any moulding planes, but there is a possibility of it in the future so I am watching this thread with interest. Off the top of my head, which isn't really off the top of my head, more along the lines of adapting experience of making spindle moulder knives to a hand plane, I would definitely make the knives first before the body. As I see it, I would only need to elongate the profiles slightly to compensate for the cutting angle/rake/whatever. Being lazy I would draw the profile in the computer and then stretch/skew/point to point plot the elongation on the plane of the cutting angle. Once I have a knife which WILL produce the profile I am after at a specific cutting angle, I simply need to make a chunk of wood which supports said knife with a sole which at least "mostly" matches the profile without any low points that would interfere with the function.

Am I about right, or way off track?

[planemaker]

Kuffy; imo your right on track with your thought process.

regards Stewie;

[planemaker]

Kuffy; you can expect at least a 4 week delay before I can make a start on the main stocks of these moulding planes. I still need to set up a new 18inch bandsaw. https://www.timbecon.com.au/sawing/bandsaws-accessories/18in-bandsaw, and I am also waiting to receive a pair of Snipe Bills and Skew Floats from Phil Edwards in the UK. Order submitted: 5/9/ 2017. Snipes Bill (http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/snipes.html) Floats (http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/floats.html)

Stewie;

[IanW]

Stewie, I presume the Dillenia you have is from somewhere north of the mainland? It looks like some I had from the Solomons a while back? There is a species of Dillenia in Nth. Qld. that goes by the common name of "Red Beech", but the couple of examples I've seen are a lot redder than your stash, and it's not a 'commercial' species, so very hard to get hold of.

I made a few saw handles from the pieces I had. It was easy wood to work with & seems to be stable, but I would've thought it a bit on the soft side for a plane body?

And I see no problem with making blades first - did just that today for a small rebate I'm building. It's necessary to have the blade when you are building from scratch, I reckon. You need it to set out the wedge angle & position, & determine the size of your escapement hole, for starters. The radius of an angled blade will be slightly different from the diameter of the curve of the plane sole, and you could allow for that in the making, but the difference is so slight, it's probably easier to put the nominal radius on it & finesse it during final fit & fettling........

Cheers,

[derekcohen]

And I see no problem with making blades first - did just that today for a small rebate I'm building. It's necessary to have the blade when you are building from scratch, I reckon.

Ian, the traditional way is to begin with a body and shape the sole, since the sole is designed around a specific curvature. It is easier to shape a short width of steel, the blade, to match a long sole.

Old Street Planes (http://www.planemaker.com/products.html) write: "The soles are profiled with concave and convex 60° arcs meaning that the sole width equals the radius of the profile".

Lie-Nielsen (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4142/tapered-molding-plane-iron-blanks) sell blades for H&R planes. They all have straight edges (bevels). It is expected that one shape the sole first, then grind the blade to match, and finally heat treat the blade.

This style of plane differs from making a rebate (or other straight-bladed) plane, since matching flat-to-flat is straightforward (apology for the pun).

Stewie's method is atypical. He is making more work for himself. The blades look very good, and no doubt he will pull it off, however this is not a method for others to follow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[planemaker]

Appreciate the feedback IanW. It will be interesting to compare the properties of Dillennia against European Beech. These H&Rs will all be bedded at 55 degrees to make them more compatible to our local hardwoods.

regards Stewie;

[planemaker]

Ian, the traditional way is to begin with a body and shape the sole, since the sole is designed around a specific curvature. It is easier to shape a short width of steel, the blade, to match a long sole.

Old Street Planes (http://www.planemaker.com/products.html) write: "The soles are profiled with concave and convex 60° arcs meaning that the sole width equals the radius of the profile".

Lie-Nielsen (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4142/tapered-molding-plane-iron-blanks) sell blades for H&R planes. They all have straight edges (bevels). It is expected that one shape the sole first, then grind the blade to match, and finally heat treat the blade.

This style of plane differs from making a rebate (or other straight-bladed) plane, since matching flat-to-flat is straightforward (apology for the pun).

Stewie's method is atypical. He is making more work for himself. The blades look very good, and no doubt he will pull it off, however this is not a method for others to follow.

Regards from Perth

Derek



At every opportunity you never cease to amaze me Mr. Cohen. Nothing further to add.

regards;

[derekcohen]

Stewie, you may believe I am having a go at you, but I am not. This is an area of my interest as well. I agree with your rational for making a a higher cutting angle. I would go even higher, aiming for 60 degrees. Now, this is the issue of the last few posts - as the bed angle increases, so the curvature on the bevel must change to match it. How are you determining the bevel shape? In advance? I would have found it easier to shape the bevel after the body is completed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

I have never made any moulding planes, but there is a possibility of it in the future so I am watching this thread with interest. Off the top of my head, which isn't really off the top of my head, more along the lines of adapting experience of making spindle moulder knives to a hand plane, I would definitely make the knives first before the body. As I see it, I would only need to elongate the profiles slightly to compensate for the cutting angle/rake/whatever. Being lazy I would draw the profile in the computer and then stretch/skew/point to point plot the elongation on the plane of the cutting angle. Once I have a knife which WILL produce the profile I am after at a specific cutting angle, I simply need to make a chunk of wood which supports said knife with a sole which at least "mostly" matches the profile without any low points that would interfere with the function.

Am I about right, or way off track?Hi Kuffy
just thinking about this approach ...
a spindle molder knife, or router bit, is rotating and cuts the desired profile in one pass by chipping away at the surface of the wood.
A molding plane cuts by taking long shavings from the surface working down to the desired profile in a number of passes.

[IanW]

Ian, I'm not sure I get your drift, & I'm bit confused by Derek' terminology, he seems to be using 'bevel' & 'curve' interchangably, or else I'm lost there, too! So just to clear things up in my own mind, and maybe help non-toolmakers understand the issues, this is how I see them:

Rotary cutters as on router bits don't figure here. They present no problems of geometry, because the cutters at some point in their arc meet the wood at a right-angle to the surface. The profile on the cutter as you would view it, is exactly what is transferred to the wood. When you make a scratch-stock cutter, the same applies, you make your profile more or less the precise negative image of the desired shape.

But when you lay over a blade more than a few degrees to slice the wood, as in a plane, the curves on the blade have to be a little different. The shape of the cutting edge is not exactly the same as the curves on the wood if viewed perpendicular to the face of the blade, but do match when the blade is held at the bed angle. Taking hollows & rounds as the example, instead of a precise 1/4 circle, the shape of the cutting edge changes to something a little more ellipsoidal when viewed on the flat face. The more you lower the cutting angle, the more ellipsoidal the shape has to become. The bevel (i.e. the relief behind the cutting edge) has to vary a bit relative to the face of the blade too, in order to maintain the same relief angle, but this is common to any curved-edge tool such as gouges, etc., and since it's not a precise value, can readily be judged by eye for all practical purposes.

Years ago, there was an article in FWW on making moulding planes, & it included the info on how to draw the required blade profiles on the cutting edges, using the desired finished moulding profile as your start-point. It could be applied to any profile, for any blade angle required. I would assume that in the factories of yore, where blades would have been made in one section, wooden bodies in another, that something similar was done. As long as everyone had the same hymn books, the parts would all mate smoothly.

I've only made a few planes with non-right-angle blades and I found the process of drawing the profile on paper to be tedious and because of my lack of skill, not as precise as I wished. In the right hands, for someone used to working from drawings, I'm sure it could be done with far more certainty, & precision, but a compromise approach works for me. For most of the planes I've made, it's been essential to have a blade cut to fairly close to its final dimensions during the build, so I can check clearances etc. The plane I'm making now is a good example why. I riveted in the block against which the wedge will bear, last night, and when I clamped in the blade bed prior to drilling it for rivets, discovered the wedge block had moved slightly, so that the blade won't fit through. I'm going to have to drill out the couple of rivets already peened, and adjust it. Serves me right for being so cock-sure and not allowing a bit more fudge room!

Cheers,

[Kuffy]

Ian and IanW, rotary cutters do not cut an entire profile all at once at 90degrees. That would be damn dangerous, noisy and a scraping action like a scratch stock. The cutter edges are offset from center which creates a cutting angle, call it pitch or rake or bed angle to identify the exact similaritys between hand plane and rotary knife geometry. You have to elongate rotary profiles in the same manner as in this thread.

[ian]

hi Kuffy and Ian

all I was trying to say in respect to rotary cutters is that they have a different cutting action (more akin to chipping) compared to a plane blade's slicing action. Both types of cutters need a relief angle, but that's not the subject of our discussion.

[ian]

But when you lay over a blade more than a few degrees to slice the wood, as in a plane, the curves on the blade have to be a little different. The shape of the cutting edge is not exactly the same as the curves on the wood if viewed perpendicular to the face of the blade, but do match when the blade is held at the bed angle. Taking hollows & rounds as the example, instead of a precise 1/4 circle, the shape of the cutting edge changes to something a little more ellipsoidal when viewed on the flat face. The more you lower the cutting angle, the more ellipsoidal the shape has to become. The bevel (i.e. the relief behind the cutting edge) has to vary a bit relative to the face of the blade too, in order to maintain the same relief angle, but this is common to any curved-edge tool such as gouges, etc., and since it's not a precise value, can readily be judged by eye for all practical purposes.
just to clear up the geometry, a conventional hollow or round cuts 1/6th of a circle.
conventionally, the blade is mounted bevel down and at normal sharpening angles, the required relief angle (typically 10°) can be ignored. (For the 55° bedding angle that Stewie's is proposing, a 30° bevel angle would result in a tolerance of around 15° in the releif angle.)



Years ago, there was an article in FWW on making moulding planes, & it included the info on how to draw the required blade profiles on the cutting edges, using the desired finished moulding profile as your start-point. It could be applied to any profile, for any blade angle required. yes, this is the conventional way of marking out the blade profile for shaping.

Stewie appears to have discovered a way of accurately shaping the blade first, so that it will match the finished sole profile -- but so far he is unwilling to explain how he does it.

[derekcohen]

The shape of the cutting edge is not exactly the same as the curves on the wood if viewed perpendicular to the face of the blade, but do match when the blade is held at the bed angle. Taking hollows & rounds as the example, instead of a precise 1/4 circle, the shape of the cutting edge changes to something a little more ellipsoidal when viewed on the flat face. The more you lower the cutting angle, the more ellipsoidal the shape has to become.

Ian, just to clarify this topic (there are two going on at the same time) ... you are identifying here what I wrote about earlier. The question is, for those that wish to make the blades first, how does one determine the curve/profile of each iron's bevel for a specific bed angle (since they will vary for each bed angle) to arrive at the same profile that will be cut into the work piece? (Which is why I stated that it is easier to begin with the profile on the bed, and determine the shape of the iron from this - that is the traditional manner and for this very reason).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

I would assume that in the factories of yore, where blades would have been made in one section, wooden bodies in another, that something similar was done. As long as everyone had the same hymn books, the parts would all mate smoothly.my guess as to the process is that "wood" part of the factory shaped the plane bodies using a mother plane.
the "metal" part of the factory used a "first generation child" to create a master blank that in turn was used to mark out a batch of blades.

alternatively, the volume of molding planes -- especially complex molders -- may have been so low that each blade was custom made to fit a body. I can imagine a metal worker picking up a nearly completed plane body, grinding and filing a matching cutting iron, then passing the body and iron onto the "packing room" where final fitting occurred. (final fettling and honing would be "delegated" to the end user.)

[IanW]

......Stewie appears to have discovered a way of accurately shaping the blade first, so that it will match the finished sole profile......

Ian & Derek, it is perfectly feasible to pre-draw the matching profile for any bed angle & any profile you choose. I learnt the procedure in technical drawing most of a lifetime ago, but I doubt I could do it without consulting a reference book or the FWW article. I imagine Ian would be able to do it in CAD in the bat of an eyelid...

I know it is easier for most of us making just one plane, to simply make the plane, wedge the blade blank in place, then trace the cutter profile directly off the sole. As woodworkers, we do not usually work with the sort of precision required in batch work (well I don't), but patternmakers, for e.g., did it routinely. It doesn't mean we don't work with accuracy, it's just a different mindset to fit one part to a pre-existing part. But it's perfectly feasible to make two separate parts with sufficient precision that they will match - most industries depend on it, do they not?

Kuffy, I'm not saying a rotary cutter cuts a great chunk out all at once. Obviously a rotary cutter does not maintain a constant cutting angle relative to the edge of the board being cut like a plane blade does. But at some point in every revolution, the face of the profile is normal to the edge of the work. This is its last contact with what will be the finished surface & is the equivalent of a scraping cut. So I'm sticking to my assertion that rotary cutters are more like scrapers when it comes to visualising the profile of the cutting edge vis a vis the profile cut.

Whatever, there is almost always more than one way to skin a cat, and from my own experience, a 'wrong' way can sometimes be just as good as a 'right' way, if it works for you & that's the way you prefer to do it........:;

Cheers,

[planemaker]

Stewie - why the attitude? A question was asked, hoping for an answer so everyone reading would benefit and you take offence.
I thought the idea of a forum was to help others and pass on knowledge, including answering questions in a civil manner.

Lappa; check my previous history on providing threads that have included great detail into the process followed. What I wont allow is to be dictated by those who can do little more than provide background commentary based solely on what they can research from the internet. Its of no secret there is bad blood between myself and Mr. Cohen and Ian from Canada. The likelihood of this thread reaching a completion point without being further destroyed by internal bickering are zip to none. As such, its better for all concerned that I complete these Moulding Planes without documenting each step followed, and give some later consideration to providing this forum with the completed photo's.

Received a phone call from the local courier this morning. My new bandsaw has arrived at their depo.

regards Stewie;

[ian]

Stewie
You have ground and heat treated the irons for your hollows and rounds -- Post #1.

Completing the irons this early in the build suggests you have solved a problem that has taxed plane makers for eons. And you are sufficiently confident with the accuracy of the blade geometry that you went on to heat treat the irons.
Now I applaud both your skill and your confidence.
All am I asking is that you elaborate on how you achieved the necessary accuracy in blade geometry this early in the build. And from the responses above, others are similarly interested.

Nowhere above have I suggested that you don't know what you are doing or have gotten ahead of yourself. Yes I am curious as to the why, but that is because as I have already stated you appear to have solved a problem that has taxed plane makers for eons.

Most people would take that as a compliment.

[Enfield Guy]

I might step on toes here, but.

It seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that the geometry for the blade angles, and shape are nothing more than a product of geometry. With modern methodology one would think that an adequate result could be had from something as simple as Sketchup. I've never done it, but really!

As far as something that has taxed planemakers for eons, Really, come on. Refer to the last comment.

Maybe, just maybe, if we all sit back, relax and observe, we might all learn something as to how such things can be made. I'm pretty sure Stewie knows where he is going with this. I'm also pretty sure this is not being done "on the fly". It may well be that the revelation may come later in the build process. Why don't we watch and see.

Patience, quite attention and intelligent questioning at appropriate times will often result in a better learning experience for all. Bitching, digging and criticism just makes it harder for the rest of us to get real value from the thread.

Can we move forward now please.

Cheers
Bevan

[lightwood]

I might step on toes here, but.

It seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that the geometry for the blade angles, and shape are nothing more than a product of geometry. With modern methodology one would think that an adequate result could be had from something as simple as Sketchup. I've never done it, but really!

As far as something that has taxed planemakers for eons, Really, come on. Refer to the last comment.

Maybe, just maybe, if we all sit back, relax and observe, we might all learn something as to how such things can be made. I'm pretty sure Stewie knows where he is going with this. I'm also pretty sure this is not being done "on the fly". It may well be that the revelation may come later in the build process. Why don't we watch and see.

Patience, quite attention and intelligent questioning at appropriate times will often result in a better learning experience for all. Bitching, digging and criticism just makes it harder for the rest of us to get real value from the thread.

Can we move forward now please.

Cheers
Bevan
Bevan,
I come back to this forum occasionally, recently because a friend alerted me to Ian's plane making. however my last post was back in August, and before that back in June.
There are some folk here who I respect, and admire. But I find reading this particular page so distasteful, and I'm so disgusted, its the reason reason I won't come back again.
Those less than genuine posts, pretending interest, what a sham! Those two should hang their heads in shame. THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

If they say they are here for the chance to look and learn, its arrant nonsense.... once again is just disingenuous behaviour, predicable as it is disgusting.

When they sit with their loved ones and friends, I wonder if they would would like them to know what they are deliberately, and maliciously trying to do to Steweie.

It's obvious to me that those two seem to have got some kind of star status that gives them immunity from responsibility for this objectionable behaviour.
I'm surprise anyone of good grace would have anything to do with them, or ask them to cool it, or relax, when the proper thing is expulsion.
Good people I know are gone from here, tired of what it has become.
Now, me too.
By,
Peter

[planemaker]

Further progress is on hold until the Skew Edge Floats arrive from the U.K.

Sad news with Peter McBride's departure from this forum.

Stewie;

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0251_zpshtsqxagu.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0251_zpshtsqxagu.jpg.html)

[auscab]

Looking Good Stewie , Hard wood as in tough, and a nice tight mouth will make them nice to use. I'm assuming its a hard wood , is it a lot harder than Beech ?
Having a set of Hollows and rounds above the bench ready to use is a real handy thing .

Rob

[planemaker]

While waiting for the skew edge floats to arrive in the mail, I decided to make a start on shaping the soles on the rounds. Once all the rounds have been completed these will be later used to shape the soles on the hollow planes. The Spill Bills that are on order will be used to commence the guide groove that will assist the shaping the hollow sole.

1st up was the 1/4" round. A block plane and a Stanley 66 fitted with the opposing 1/4" hollow iron were the primary tools used to shape this soles 1/4" rounded profile. As I later move onto shaping the soles on the wider rounds, its opposing hollow iron will be fitted to the Stanley 66.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0254_zpsxtttdfas.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0254_zpsxtttdfas.jpg.html)

Test run on a hardwood scrap reveals a nice cleanly cut profile.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0255_zpspzh0bfuu.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0255_zpspzh0bfuu.jpg.html)

[forrestmount]

I am fascinated with moulding planes, never used one but really I want to learn how to make mouldings. I was jealous looking at the pictures of the planes you made yourself and noticed your workbench. This looks awesome as well. Do you have planes for the bench?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Enfield Guy]

It certainly is a pleasure to wait, observe and learn.

Thank you

[planemaker]

The soles on the 3 rounds have been shaped.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0256_zpsnwszhu5p.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0256_zpsnwszhu5p.jpg.html)

[yowie]

Beautiful work. Thankyou for sharing with us.

[NCArcher]

Looking really good Stewie. Great idea using the hollow irons in the No. 66

[planemaker]

The following shows the newly formed sole on the 1/2" hollow.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0259_zps3q2ab94f.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0259_zps3q2ab94f.jpg.html)

[planemaker]

The escarpment side on the 3 hollows have been dressed back to align with the outer edge of the cutting iron.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0260_zps8mhm5qzv.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0260_zps8mhm5qzv.jpg.html)

[RayG]

Looking good Stewie, this is something I've been wanting to dabble in ( when time permits ) looking forward to seeing them in action :2tsup:

Ray

[planemaker]

Further progress is on hold until the skew edge floats to arrive from the u.k. The leading edge on the wedges are beveled at 10 degrees.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0262_zpsriegjcgy.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/hollows%20and%20rounds/_DSC0262_zpsriegjcgy.jpg.html)

[ian]

Further progress is on hold until the skew edge floats to arrive from the u.k. Hi Stewie, is there any update on this project, or are you still waiting on the skew floats ?

[planemaker]

Ian; I am waiting on the skew floats to arrive.

[ian]

Ian; I am waiting on the skew floats to arrive.
thanks for the update