Off grid 3 phase solar power

[DaveTTC]

G'day all,

I've done a little research but when you dont know what you're looking for it can be a glut of information.

Simply put I am intersted in finding out about battery storage power for my home and shed. I would like to have 3 phase to run as much as a 10 hp motor.

Also want to run a cyclone dust extractor and everything required for a house including heating and cooling.

Where to start?

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[FenceFurniture]

G'day Dave

I'm not the guy to answer this with any real knowledge, but I think you're screwed for 10hp. I suspect it will be just way too many amps being dragged out of a battery (18A at 415v)

I'm not sure if the Tesla is the biggest battery on the market, but it is 13.2kWh. That will run a 2400 watt (10A 240v) whatever for ~5.5 hours. But they're pretty pricey at around $10k, and by the sound of it you would need two, plus about $10-12k in solar panels to run them. Batteries will be much more feasible in 4-5 years I reckon.

[tonzeyd]

I'm very interested to see where this thread goes.

As far as I'm aware battery storage is only single phase. I'm sure there are three phase options, but without having to sell both your kidneys I don't know of any options available? Plus the ones that I do know about are generally for backup purposes rather than going off the grid completely.

Is there a particular reason for going solar? I've got a mate that couldn't get three phase from the street and ended up going down the generator diesel generator route definitely cheaper and more reliable then solar

[Optimark]

Can be done, just costs a bit more than I would suggest you would like to spend.

I have been waiting for the flow batteries to come down in price, which they should do probably at the end of this year as they are shifting manufacturing from Mexico to Asia, Thailand I believe.

https://faq.zcell.com/category/1/zcell-technology.html

Pretty much living in remote regions you could just purchase one of their standard shipping containers with (I think) 64 of their units inside.

http://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/002_LSB-Datasheet_A4_July16_Digital.pdf


I would suggest you work out in Watts just what your requirements are, or what you wish to have, then sit down and work out how many solar panels would be required to generate in real time those Watts.

Some food for thought.

Mick.

[FenceFurniture]

A quote from a PDF on Powerwalls:
Does Powerwall work for 3-phase homes? DC Powerwall 2 when paired with a compatible 3-phase Fronius hybrid inverter (Symo Hybrid) can be connected to 3-phase homes. AC Powerwall 2 does not produce 3- phase output. It can be however connected to a single phase on a 3-phase home. 3 AC Powerwalls can also be connected one on each phase of a 3-phase home.

See here:
https://www.google.com.au/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&q=powerwall+2+three+phase&oq=powerwall+2+three+phase&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0.1323049.1325807.0.1327063.11.7.0.0.0.0.352.352.3-1.1.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..10.1.350....0.-HdP2wYNPkQ

third one down (marked PDF)

[BobL]

As solar is DC, eventually for completely off grid connections I envisage it might even be be more efficient to use DC motors that run direct from the batteries as no inverter losses would be incurred.

The other option is a modified VFD, some smaller VFDs take X Volts single phase AC and turn it into DC and then back into 3Phase X Volts. I can even eventually envisage a class of VFD becoming available that uses Direct DC input from batteries. It's kinda what the 3Phase solar systems would be using to make the 3P.

[DaveTTC]

Thank you all thus far. This would be a good two years off if things go well.

I like to start my research early and I know batteries etc should only get better.

On your point FF ... do more batteries equal more amps? Or is it that the batteries are only x amps

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

Opps ... typos. Go figure, who would ever think me to post without proof reading

[FenceFurniture]

Well I'm pretty much out of my depth after that, but I imagine that three batteries (or battery sets) hooked up as three phase could probably do it. 10hp would be around 10 amps per battery (if I understand it correctly). Much better for someone like Bob to answer that.

[BobL]

Thank you all thus far. This would be a food two years off if things go well.
I like to start my research early and I know batteries etc shoyld only fet better.
On your point FF ... do more batteries equal more amps? Or is it that the batteries are only x amps

Depends how they are connected and the batteries themselves
Generally more batteries =
more amps at same volts for a set time
or More volts at same amps for a set time
or same amount of amps and volts but for longer time.

You might not be using your 10HP motor for long periods so even a small battery bank might contain 10HP for the time you need it
BUT
It may not be able to deliver the amps at a fast enough rate to run a 10HP motor.
Batteries have limits as to how quickly they can get their amps in and out, too fast and they overheat and can be permanently damaged.

[FenceFurniture]

The other thing that concerned me was the initial start up draw for a 10hp induction motor - it may be brief but it could be high enough to fry a battery?

[BobL]

The other thing that concerned me was the initial start up draw for a 10hp induction motor - it may be brief but it could be high enough to fry a battery?

Ah ha - that's another reason for using a VFD (or a slow start device) - slow start will keep the start up power requirements at a reasonable level.

[fletty]

Back in the 'old days' before electricity was an option, out forebears plonked a big steam engine/water wheel/windmill at one end of the workshop and ran a drive shaft through (usually) the roof with pulleys and belts to drive each individual machine. Being the mechanical handyman that I know you are, I think you would be better off to consider this rather than living at the 'bleeding edge' of green power generation and storage? I totally agree that a drive shaft across the workshop is SO 19th Century but it's modern equivalent is well worth a look. There was an article in FWW a few years ago about an (I think) Amish woodworker, whose religion prevented the use of electricity. He ran a fabulous workshop with a diesel powered hydraulic pump outside in a separate building and replaced all electric motors with hydraulic! Hydraulic motors do not fry if they stall, they remain very 'torquey' at all speeds and, at the motor end, they are relatively quiet. Just close your eyes and think of this;

You wake in the morning, have breakfast with the family, stroll down to the engine shed
check that yesterday's delivery of rapeseed oil from the fish and chip shop has settled
start the bio-fuelled diesel hydraulic pump that you scavenged from the back of a wrecked mini concrete truck
walk to the machine shop and turn on the electric lights because you are NOT Amish
turn the proportioning valve on the lathe and it rumbles into life
turn up a 3 legged stool and sit on the shed verandah before realising that you are feeling hungry (mostly because of the faint smell of fish and chips)
head back into the house where your solar bank and single phase power supply have powered the fresh bread cooker
say hello again to your family who hadnt known where you were because they can't hear the muffled rumbling of the hydraulic pump up at the house ..... but were wondering where the smell of fish and chips was coming from
REPEAT above in the afternoon

As electric passenger vehicles become available, and hence more popular, electric commercial vehicles will soon follow. There will then be hydraulic pumps and motors available at scrap prices all over the place. All that will be required is welding up suitable mounts, turning couplers and crimping fittings on to hydraulic hoses.
fletty

[DaveTTC]

I saw your name pop up and thought ... Yes, a power man! Why didnt I think of you earlier?

Well I cant say it was the reply I was expecting but interesting none the less.

I feel a need to sit infront of your fire pit, sip on a bottle, I mean glass of port, and discuss this further.

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[acropolite]

Battery storage is obscenely expensive and despite predictions not likely to get much cheaper in the future. That said, 3 phase is achievable on a single battery bank. Some of the Victron inverter models can be configured in 3 phase mode by connecting 3 of the same model inverters together and configuring the inverters to suit. If you want to go the Solar route the best way is to have the largest possible array you can afford and do all your work during the day when solar output is at it's maximum. Configure your battery bank to supply minimal loads overnight and the system would be workable. Three of these inverters would do the trick, Victron Energy Phoenix Inverter 48V 5000VA-4500W (http://www.energyconnections.net.au/product/victron-shop/355/1131/42487/victron-energy-phoenix-inverter-48v-5000va-4500w) factor in a 48 volt battery bank and around 10kw of solar panel capacity. Don't worry about adding up the cost, it will make your eyes water.

[Chris Parks]

Battery storage is obscenely expensive and despite predictions not likely to get much cheaper in the future.

That interests me because all the information I have been able to access here and OS says otherwise. I am not saying you are wrong but it seems to go against the prevailing school of thought. I wouldn't think batteries for Dave's use would be a starter anyway but who knows what will happen in the future.

[FenceFurniture]

I would think that Dave would absolutely need batteries to have access to the amount of power he will need on occasion. No way will 10hp 3ph run straight off the panels/inverter.

[DaveTTC]

Following all feed back and watching sime youtube about it too. By the time I get to it I hope to know a little more

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[BobL]

Li ion battery prices are dropping quite rapidly and as of July 2017 the price was US$147 for a kW hr of cells

422562

The price is being held high by speculators and the very high demand for batteries for electric vehicles.
Conservative predictions are for a price of US$100 /kWhr for cells before 2020.
This is without any significant breakthroughs in battery technology, or production or major changes in the Li Supply.
There are many Li mines only now just being opened up - it will be interesting to see what the cost of Li levels out to once these ones come on stream and mining and processing procedures are subject to more stable market pressures.

[FenceFurniture]

Bob, that is worthy of posting over in the other thread too:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f28/getting-energy-deal-joke-217233

[malb]

As previously mentioned, Fronius do a range of 3 phase inverters, and Victron can interconnect 3 single phase inverters to provide 3 phase. Selectronics (Melb based company doing inverters etc for more than 20yrs) can also do this from their SP Pro range. The SP Pro has models that can operate at battery voltages up to 110 or 120V, and incorporate charge controllers and a range of other functions. Basically they can do anything anyone wanting to go solar might want to do, but systems need to be planned and installed and programmed by people who have a lot of experience and knowledge of the systems. They are not cheap, but have excellent versatility, expandability, and reliability. Utilising higher battery pack voltages reduces the currents involved and ultimately reduces cable costs and power losses.

Battery sizing would be a function of the availability requirements for the 10HP capability. The battery would be substantially larger if you need to utilise the 10HP capacity in all weathers, at any time of night or day, during overcast periods, or for extended periods. Similarly, you would need in the order of 15KW of solar panels to source the DC just from solar on sunny days, plus a fair bit more for battery charging, house loads etc.

Tesla batteries have the hype but are a bit of an unknown quantity in terms of lifespan etc as they are reasonably new to the market, and use thousands of small cells in series/parallel configuration to achieve their storage capacity, just as their electric cars do. Traditional logic is that the fewer cells placed in parallel the better, so a battery pack comprising high capacity cells in series only (to achieve required nominal pack voltage) is a better option than the Tesla arrangement of low capacity cells in series/parallel configurations.

Ideally, the most economical arrangement would probably be a medium sized single phase solar installation for the house and moderate load equipment in the shop, plus a 22KVA approx diesel generator to support the heavy loads from the bigger gear and act as a backup generator for the solar.

[Chris Parks]

A fairly good explanation of a Tesla domestic battery, the biggest issue is the limited maximum amps that can be delivered, it isn't much at all.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLzlrGGuxQ

[Chris Parks]

Dave, buy an old tractor with an big hydraulic pump on it and hook up a generator to the PTO. Put it up on blocks and you have an off grid power supply and power to run machines on a line shaft. An old hydraulic motor should not be too hard to find to drive the shaft.

[ian]

A fairly good explanation of a Tesla domestic battery, the biggest issue is the limited maximum amps that can be delivered, it isn't much at all.
I don't know.
5kW is almost 21 Amps at 240V -- this would happily run SWMBO's washer and dryer for 6-8 hours.

what I find disingenuous is "assumptions" about battery life and long term degrade of a battery. The best number I can find on line is that, with the appropriate electronics and environment, Li-ion is good for 2500 charging cycles. Other references suggest as few as 500 cycles. 2500 cycles would be about 8 years use.

[ian]

Li ion battery prices are dropping quite rapidly and as of July 2017 the price was US$147 for a kW hr of cells

422562

The price is being held high by speculators and the very high demand for batteries for electric vehicles.
Conservative predictions are for a price of US$100 /kWhr for cells before 2020.Are you sure?

when I plot the above as a line chart, it appears that the price curve has already moved through an inflextion point, with the rate of change now much less than it was prior to 2015.

[DaveTTC]

I line shaft was something I was interested in doing. Just don't like the noise of it.

Fletty 'S ideas with a line shaft and hydraulic motors sound s interesting. Must have a bottle of port with him to further discuss.

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[acropolite]

Some real figures for you on batteries, not urban myth or internet nonsense. LG's Resu Lithium battery is arguably the most affordable Li battery in Australia at the moment.
Pricing is around $8000 for a 10Kw battery of which onky 8.5Kw is useable. To quote one source "The LG RESU 10 is an Energy Storage System with 10kWhr of lithium ion cells rated to 6000 cycles or more. The unit is capable of putting out 7kW of peak power or 5kW continuously. ... The battery has 8.5kWhr of usable capacity with a round trip efficiency of greater than 95%.".

Charging and management of Lithium batteries is not simple, specialised hardware is required to integrate Li batteries in to off grid systems.

Charge capacity of the LG Resu is I believe guaranteed 6500 cycles at 85% depth of discharge, 8.5 kwh isn't a lot of useable power but if the proper measures are in place an average household could run on that. You'll note that the Resu is only capable of supplying 5Kw continuously or 7Kw intermittently. The above graph is simply rubbish, not at all representative of current pricing of around $1000 per kwh.

Lead acid battery types are a different ball game, the usual recommended depth of discharge for lead acid is 20% of capacity so banks need to be oversized if they are to last. The number of charge discharge cycles available with Lead acid batteries is proportional to the depth of discharge, mininise the discharge and your bank will last many times longer than it would with total discharge cycles.

Decent solar lead acid batteries (AGM and Gel included in the definition of lead acid) can last up to 20 years.

Best practice with any with any off grid system is to maximise use during the hours when the sun is shining, keep everything as efficient as possible to minimise the draw on your battery.

I probably should mention, I'm a technician, I sold and installed small off grid systems in the 90's and currently use both on grid and off grid systems. If anyone is interested I can give you a run down on my off grid scenario, some costings, performance considerations and measures taken to make the system perform adequately and maximise service life..

[Chris Parks]

I don't know.
5kW is almost 21 Amps at 240V -- this would happily run SWMBO's washer and dryer for 6-8 hours.

what I find disingenuous is "assumptions" about battery life and long term degrade of a battery. The best number I can find on line is that, with the appropriate electronics and environment, Li-ion is good for 2500 charging cycles. Other references suggest as few as 500 cycles. 2500 cycles would be about 8 years use.

That would be no where near enough for my house, it would be lucky to run the network and computers with everything going. What 99.9% of people think batteries will do is that they will act as a complete back up if the power goes down and that is not the case at all. Some years ago we had a bush fire go through our town and the power was off for days, during that time we had a big Honda generator hooked up and it would not start our fridge with everything else turned off. Admittedly it was running through a 50 metre extension cord but the start current for it must be very high.

[BobL]

Are you sure?
when I plot the above as a line chart, it appears that the price curve has already moved through an inflextion point, with the rate of change now much less than it was prior to 2015.

The $100 mark is not just based on that curve but also on things like, new Li mines coming on stream (A projected oversupply of Li was even predicted 12 months ago) and the 15 new Megabattery facilities currently being built. It does not include technology break throughs although this s probably likely to result in different batteries.

[BobL]

I don't know.
5kW is almost 21 Amps at 240V -- this would happily run SWMBO's washer and dryer for 6-8 hours.

what I find disingenuous is "assumptions" about battery life and long term degrade of a battery. The best number I can find on line is that, with the appropriate electronics and environment, Li-ion is good for 2500 charging cycles. Other references suggest as few as 500 cycles. 2500 cycles would be about 8 years use.

That's because the way the battery is discharged and in a related way its temperature are significant in determining the number of recharge cycles. My old iPhone battery lasted for 6 years with an average recharge cycle of 2 days that makes it 1100 recharges. It's actually still working (I use it as an MP3 player) but the amount of charge it holds is now significantly less than
when it was new

[Bushmiller]

Dave

Just returning to your initial post, why do you wish to go to solar and battery storage?

It seems to me that there are several of potential reasons why this might be:

1. A desire to be free of the grid and all the associated constraints. Independence if you prefer and possibly just on an altruistic level.
2. The belief that it will ultimately be a cost saving measure.
3. Unavailability of grid power at an economic rate.

Around our way we have the road going south towards Goondiwindi (pronounced "Gunderwindy" by the way and shortened to "Gundy," the same as the little town in the Upper Hunter on the way to the Barrington Tops) and for most of the people living in this area they have an electrical system off the grid. This is only because the cost of running power lines is so expensive. They have solar and batteries by default. No economic alternative. As others have already said, you may well need a larger system than appears to be the case theoretically on paper.

I believe at the moment an off the grid system is significantly more expensive and limited in what it can deliver. All those people on the Gundy road will have gas fired ovens for example and in addition solar hot water. They seriously limit what they will run on electricity. I think the running of large electric motors would challenge most systems or be very expensive to set up.

Sorry to be a kill joy.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

Here's an interesting example of what is called a stand alone or mini-grid solar setup.

In WA the power network is spread so thin that the costs of poles and wires, and power outages has gone through the roof in the more remote rural areas.
In some areas there has been little to nothing spent on pole and wire maintenance so many are up for renewal

Here's an example of the PRIMARY electrical energy provider in the state (Western Power) installing a complete solar mini grid system (backed up by diesel generator) to 6 farms in the Hometown region of WA.
https://westernpower.com.au/energy-solutions/projects-and-trials/stand-alone-power-system-trial/

The trial has been going for one year and has been deemed an outstanding success with some 65 hours of power outages avoided.
Famers have not had to change any practices or electrical machinery on their farms.
Diesel was needed for 8% of the power.
The power was of a MUCH better quality.
The farmers pay nothing up front and the same energy rate as regular grid power.
The energy provider maintains the system (mostly remotely) and says it is cheaper to install and maintain these mini grid systems than funding the massive pole and wire replacement.
They will be installing many of more of these in the next few years.

[tonzeyd]

A significant factor for WA is line transmission losses, given the remote nature of WA and the respective location of power plants its not surprising that mini grid systems are deployed.

Had a chat to a mate who has a three phase diesel generator on his acerage, and it does seem quite economical. The generator costed him $16k to install and he runs it 6-8 hours per day and costs him around $200 per week in fuel. Which given the price of solar/battery storage at the moment it will take quite a few years before the cost of fuel/maintenance of running a diesel generator exceeds the cost of solar system.

Alternatively if you've got space install your own "mini-grid" and get the best of both worlds.

[ian]

That would be no where near enough for my house, it would be lucky to run the network and computers with everything going. What 99.9% of people think batteries will do is that they will act as a complete back up if the power goes down and that is not the case at all. Some years ago we had a bush fire go through our town and the power was off for days, during that time we had a big Honda generator hooked up and it would not start our fridge with everything else turned off. Admittedly it was running through a 50 metre extension cord but the start current for it must be very high.Without access to the compliance plate for your fridge, I'd guess that when running your fridge would draw around 8-10 Amps, with a starting current probably 2-3 times that. The voltage drop over a standard domestic 50m extension cord is not pretty. My first guess is that the extension lead was too light for the run and current draw.

Although I am surprised that a "big" Honda generator was feeding through a single extension lead.

[DavidG]

A modern fridge uses about 100 to 300w. I have a big Samsung fridge freezer 300+ ltr and it happily runs off a 900 w pure sinewave genny.

[Bohdan]

In my case the generator was next to the fridge, it was rated at 10A the same as a power point but it wouldn't start the fridge.

To start the fridge we would rev the genny to full speed and close the switch. It would run untill the fridge stopped and then some one would switch off the generator. Some time later, I can't remember how long, the proceedure was repeated. A real PITA but it kept the fridge cold for many hours.

[DaveTTC]

Paul,
1, 2 & 3

Neighbour got 3 phase and it cost him 30k to get it to my property is another 400 or 500m

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[Ausworkshop]

Paul,
1, 2 & 3

Neighbour got 3 phase and it cost him 30k to get it to my property is another 400 or 500m

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

Personally I would focus my efforts on moving away from 3 phase all together if I was you. Is there any reason you need so much power? Start using hand tools more, get a treadle lathe maybe :)
Save a fortune! You'll be happier and healthier in the long run as well.

When the world goes to s**t (which may now be sooner than we thought) it's the guys with hand tools that will come out on top in the long run. A generator will be worthless by then when all the fuel runs out and the fish n chip shops close.
Stock up on hand tools and guns I say. They will be the most useful tools you will need.

[BobL]

When the world goes to s**t (which may now be sooner than we thought) it's the guys with hand tools that will come out on top in the long run. A generator will be worthless by then when all the fuel runs out and the fish n chip shops close.

Sounds like all the more reason to go with solar.

[Ausworkshop]

Until the battery needs changing or some other part needs maintenance then those solar panels will be like big flags alerting all those around that you may have a lithium battery stashed in your backyard that they all need to survive. Lol, I'm just joking around, but still, it's well worth stocking up on hand tools or any other item that you can't make yourself and requires no maintenance or reliance on mining. The lithium mines will be closed by then, or we will have sold it all off to China and can no longer control the mines in our own country. Tesla will have the left overs from them, that's if an EMP hasn't wiped out the USA by then!

[DaveTTC]

I have a treadle lathe and pole lathe [emoji6]

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[Bohdan]

...we will have sold it all off to China...


Who will have sold it back to us so they will have all of the money and can buy this place and kick us out.

[Ausworkshop]

You'll be all set then. I'll walk to Horsham if I need some turning done, that's if the roads aren't covered in mobs of zombies.
That reminds me I need to contact Brendan Stemp and find out when he's getting more glue in stock.......(because he's from Horsham, not because he reminds me of a zombie, just to clear that up):)

[ian]

Personally I would focus my efforts on moving away from 3 phase all together if I was you. Is there any reason you need so much power? Start using hand tools more, get a treadle lathe maybe :)
Save a fortune! You'll be happier and healthier in the long run as well.did you see the hulking big piece of old cast iron Dave hauled down the Hume not so long ago.

From memory, Dave needs a 60kVA 3 phase generator just to get the motor to turn over.

[DaveTTC]

What glue is that?

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[KBs PensNmore]

Going by the text, the glue that he's sniffing!!!!!!
Kryn

[Optimark]

This is a fair indication of what is more than reasonably possible right now.

I too, think you need to organise what your priorities are as far as power usage. It is possible to do what you wish to do right now, but I fear you would never be unable to afford it. By paring back to a more realistic version of what you wish to do, it more than likely will be achievable by yourself.

This is a media release from today.

http://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Redflow_ZCell_Bates_family_case_study_1710_FINAL.pdf

Mick.

[FenceFurniture]

I always find it interesting that they will spruik the benefits of the system, and say how comparable the cost is.....without ever telling us what the cost is (maybe they think they can talk us into it when it's a one on one conversation).

So, we know that they said the cost of grid power was "tens of thousands per km", and that it was a distance of 2.7km. Given that $20,000 is "tens" (plural) of thousands, I suppose that we can assume their minimum cost for grid power was around $60,000. They said that there was not much between them, without saying the solar system was "a little cheaper" so I think we can also assume that the solar system was a little more expensive, and probably by a margin of $5-10k.

Perhaps the all-up cost was around $70,000 then? The 72 x 260 watt panels plus 2x inverters would probably be around $25-30k, which leaves around $40k for the 6x 10kW batteries. However, we know that Zcells don't price compete with Lithium batteries like Tesla Powerwall (at around $10k for 13kW) so I'm thinking their system must have cost around $100k (which is still "tens of thousands per km").

[ian]

The bit I found interesting was the opening quote “Costwise, the difference between running mains power to the site of the new house site and setting up the solar-powered energy storage system was negligible" which could be interpreted as "in terms of the overall cost (house + power + landscaping + fencing + access road) the additional cost of solar power was negligible"
"negligible" in the context of a $800,000 project is possibly as much as $50,000

[Chris Parks]

We are in the process of completing the final part of our new system which is 28 x 295kw panels running through a Fronius 3 phase 7.5kw inverter. They were installing the communications to enable data logging today but the electrician who has never done a system with DA cannot get it to talk to the house network so I will get my son to have a crack at it hopefully this arvo.

We actually fired it up a few days ago and it was producing nearly 7.5 killerwasps in the mid afternoon which I thought was pretty good but mid morning today (cloudless, hot) was peaking at low 5's. At that level it was only just keeping up with the household draw so in the heat of summer it will be line ball when more AC is running. The reason we went with the DA was to assess the viability of batteries and just this preview this morning says batteries are useless to us in summer, let's see what happens in winter and how much is exported during the cold months. This is a fairly substantial domestic installation so I can't see batteries being a solution in a smaller typical one.

[Optimark]

80 x 250W panels with stand alone mounting for in a paddock, is almost exactly $16,000 AUD at last weeks price, ex Melbourne. These are running at a 17.4% cell efficiency and come with a 10 year replacement warranty on the Photo Voltaic panels along with a 25 year power warranty. Neither of the warranties should be required unless a panel fails in the first couple of months. Panels have been running continuously in the USA for around 45 years at the moment, so that should see most people out.
Inverters are another issue entirely, they do have a lower life expectancy. The mentioned Victron inverters are currently available with a bit of running around for a tad over $10,000 AUD for two units

ZBM2 batteries are, from what I have gleaned, approximately $12,600 AUD each x 6 = $75,600 AUD. That said, the real cost for these units is almost certainly lower than this. With the Thailand factory in the designated duty free manufacturing precinct coming on-line shortly, one assumes a more substantial drop in unit price could be on the cards.

Then there is installation costs and what have you, say another $3,000 to $5,000.

Rough total should be somewhere in the vicinity of $106,600 AUD for hardware with probably another $5,000 for installation plus odds and ends.

Round figure would then be say $110,000.

Assuming they have installed the ZBM2 battery units, they will have a warranted 20MWh throughput in the life of each battery; probably at least another 10-15% of power throughput, but that is just a guess. At that stage the battery can be replaced (unlikely) or refurbished (more likely) costs for a refurbishment are not known by me at this stage, but eventually will be.

Realistically, I would suggest the actual cost would be well north of those figures, knowing what I do from 12V, 24V, 32V and 48V systems I am familiar with, nothing is ever near what back of the envelope figures suggest.

Some food for thought.

Mick.

[FenceFurniture]

Plus maybe another $8-10k for the hot-dipped gal structure to hold the panels.

[Optimark]

Plus maybe another $8-10k for the hot-dipped gal structure to hold the panels.

That was included.

Mick.

[ian]

80 x 250W panels with stand alone mounting for in a paddock, is almost exactly $16,000 AUD at last weeks price, ex Melbourne.

Inverters are another issue entirely, they do have a lower life expectancy. The mentioned Victron inverters are currently available with a bit of running around for a tad over $10,000 AUD for two units

ZBM2 batteries are, from what I have gleaned, approximately $12,600 AUD each x 6 = $75,600 AUD. That said, the real cost for these units is almost certainly lower than this. With the Thailand factory in the designated duty free manufacturing precinct coming on-line shortly, one assumes a more substantial drop in unit price could be on the cards.

Then there is installation costs and what have you, say another $3,000 to $5,000.

Rough total should be somewhere in the vicinity of $106,600 AUD for hardware with probably another $5,000 for installation plus odds and ends.

Round figure would then be say $110,000.

Realistically, I would suggest the actual cost would be well north of those figures, knowing what I do from 12V, 24V, 32V and 48V systems I am familiar with, nothing is ever near what back of the envelope figures suggest.
that implies a cost of $40 to $45 thousand per km to extend the grid power.

[FenceFurniture]

Heh heh, "tens of thousands" is pretty broad....

[DaveTTC]

This is a fair indication of what is more than reasonably possible right now.

I too, think you need to organise what your priorities are as far as power usage. It is possible to do what you wish to do right now, but I fear you would never be unable to afford it. By paring back to a more realistic version of what you wish to do, it more than likely will be achievable by yourself.

This is a media release from today.

http://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Redflow_ZCell_Bates_family_case_study_1710_FINAL.pdf

Mick.Thanks Mick. Look forward to reading this tonight

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art

[DaveTTC]

Almoat up-to-date with replies. Just the link to go. Appologues for absence over last few days. Been flat out

DaveTTC
The Turning Cowboy
Turning Wood Into Art