Table saw blade

[phaser]

What constitutes a rip saw blade ?
I'm talking circular here but I assume a hand saw should reflect the same.
Is it enough to say the TPI of the blade is the only factor ? or are the teeth set differently too ?

Been looking at some 254mm circular blades at Bunnings website but don't really know which to choose.
Also searched for a rip hand saw but it kinda looks like you can't buy them anymore.

[Alkahestic]

The tooth geometry is a major factor. There are substantial differences between hand saws and circular blades as well. Generally though, with circular blades, lower TPI (40 or so) lends itself to ripping blades and higher TPI (60/80+) will be your cross cutting blades. If you're after a good table saw blade, you will be better off ordering something through a woodworking supplier like Timbecon/Carbatec/Gregory's Machinery/Henry Bros/Whatever-you-prefer. The Diablo blades at Bunnings are pretty good though. If Bunnings were my only choice, I'd get the 60T or 80T for cross cutting and a 40T for ripping. Personally I've got Sawstop brand table saw blades and a Diablo in my circular saw and mitre saw. The best comparison I can do is between the Diablo in the mitre saw and the Sawstop 80T cross cut, the SS wins hands down. I can cut melamine with no pre scoring and incredibly minimal chipout on either face with it.

For hand saws, a lot of the modern hardened tooth saws (those that can't be re sharpened) are designed to do both rip and cross cuts. They're not excellent at either, but not terrible either. I've got one of these (https://www.bunnings.com.au/stanley-fatmax-560mm-jet-cut-hand-saw_p5562982) and it's going strong after 5 years of weekend use. Bunnings also has Spear and Jackson saws that you can order in. They are not hardened and can be resharpened, so you can grind resharpen them as rip or cross cuts instead of the 'universal' teeth pattern they come with. I've got about half a dozen beat up hand saws that I will one day refurbish... but for now the Stanley plastic fantastic does the job.

[BobL]

If you can I'd be looking at less than a 40 toothed blade for ripping.
For a 10" blade I'd be looking at 20-24 Teeth - proper ripping blades have deep gullets to cope with the large amount of sawdust generated.

[orraloon]

I agree with Bob on this. No more than 24 teeth if its a 10'' blade for ripping. I use a 24 tooth to rip and a 60 or 80 to crosscut. Days when a bit lazy I've said just one rip as a can't be bothered to change blades. You really notice the difference.
As to a rip handsaw keep a look on ebay for a good old one and give it a makeover. Nobody but the custom sawmakers do them now and you would be looking at big $.
Regards
John

[Alkahestic]

I stand corrected on the tooth count for a ripping blade :B

[elanjacobs]

We've got 28T and 32T 400mm blades for ripping...they do alright :rolleyes:

A true rip blade will often have a flat top tooth, instead of a beveled top, but that's not essential

[ian]

as already mentioned 10" (250 or 254 mm) table saw rip blades should have around 24 teeth and have flat top teeth.

You may find a variant called a "glue line rip" which has around 30 teeth and an alternate top bevel grind a Triple Chip grind -- every second tooth has the outside corners ground back at 45 degrees.

also be aware that blades come in regular 1/8" (3.2 mm) and thin 3/32" (2.4 mm) kerfs. Try and avoid using a thin kerf blade with a regular kerf riving knife or splitter.

[elanjacobs]

You may find a variant called a "glue line rip" which has around 30 teeth and an alternate top bevel grind -- every second tooth has the outside corners ground back at 45 degrees.
That'd be a Triple Chip grind. Alternate top is a regular crosscut blade grind.

[ian]

That'd be a Triple Chip grind. Alternate top is a regular crosscut blade grind.
thanks for the correction. Have gone back and edited my post

[Bushmiller]

Whether hand saw or circular saw the principles are the same.

Rip teeth act like a number of small chisels and remove "slithers" of timber. Crosscut blades sever the fibres like a knife (actually like two knives) and have a more complex shape to them. Rip teeth are normally fewer (as others have said) but bigger.

Conversely crosscut teeth are more numerous (the more there are, the finer and smoother the cut) and smaller for the given space.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Also searched for a rip hand saw but it kinda looks like you can't buy them anymore.

Phaser

You can buy rip saws: Just not brand new. Refurbished vintage hand saws can be as good as they were when first made. Most of my user saws are in the region of one hundred years old. Some are completely original. Some have new handles similar to the project you are contemplating with your back saws posted on the other thread.

There are a few specialist saws makers around also. They are mostly overseas in the US in particular, but also the UK and Europe. The irony perhaps is that they emulate the saws from the golden age of saw making when these hand tools reached their pinnacle. The problem was that by the time of WW1 there was almost no room for improvement and because of a deteriorating market in the face of powered saws and the increasing requirement to mass produce the product fell into decline. Saws produced from the mid fifties onwards are not highly regarded compared to saws before that time. The exception to this is the resurgence in hand tools including saws in recent years and the growth of a specialist be-spoke industry

Regards
Paul

[ian]

If you are looking for a new hand saw, the Thomas Flinn & Co options https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/ are IMO very well priced at around half the cost of a saw from one of the US makers.

Flinn's Last Man Standing video is also worth watching https://youtu.be/NiW5E8vYaPo

[Midnight Man]

If you are looking for a new hand saw, the Thomas Flinn & Co options https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/ are IMO very well priced at around half the cost of a saw from one of the US makers.

Fantastic video, and a very valuable link - thank you. Now if I only could figure out which saws I need! ;)

[rrich]

IMHO A table saw blade of the "Combination" style serves very well in ten inch (254MM) models. It may be different in saws accepting 305MM blades.

There are many "General Purpose" blades that are configured as 40 ATB (Alternating Top Bevel) teeth. These are very good blades but tend to bog down as the thickness of stock goes over 19MM. I tend to avoid these style of blades.

The true combination blade which has Raker (square top) teeth on a large gullet and ATB teeth on small gullets seems to be superb for most cuts in most materials. Brands are Freud Diablo or Irwin Marples just to name a couple. These blades are very easily recognizable by the groups of a Raker tooth on a large gullet and four ATB teeth on small gullets. The configurations are usually 8 or 10 groups of teeth. (40 or 50 total teeth, respectively.) The 40 tooth blade seems to work exceptionally well as the main blade in small shops.

If a smoother cut is needed, an excellent choice would be to use a 'Radial Arm Saw Blade' in the table saw. The negative hook angle of the RAS blades will yield a smoother cut. A little slower going but a smoother cut. When looking at a RAS blade the teeth tend to lean back from the cut while in table saw blades the teeth lean into the cut. BTW - For safety, never, ever use a table saw blade in a RAS.

[elanjacobs]

BTW - For safety, never, ever use a table saw blade in a RAS.
I don't often speak in definites, but from my experience that is categorically not the case. The only blade I have ever been genuinely scared to use on our RAS was a dedicated RAS blade with negative rake; it was grabby, self-feeding and was just generally uncontrollable. Took it out after a couple of days and never touched it again. We always used normal ATB before it and we will continue to only use them now.

[rrich]

I don't often speak in definites, but from my experience that is categorically not the case. The only blade I have ever been genuinely scared to use on our RAS was a dedicated RAS blade with negative rake; it was grabby, self-feeding and was just generally uncontrollable. Took it out after a couple of days and never touched it again. We always used normal ATB before it and we will continue to only use them now.

I understand completely what you are saying. I do not disbelieve your experience. The engineer in me wants to understand why you had the experience that you did with the negative hook angle blade.

[elanjacobs]

So do I, it was my idea to get the blade in the first place because I'd read all the technical stuff and it made sense. I guess sometimes the theory doesn't always translate to reality.

[Bushmiller]

EJ

Is the saw to which you are referring a true radial arm saw or is it a framing saw. The reason I ask this is that a RAS head can be swivelled 90 degs to the fence and used to rip. The framing saw can only crosscut (including bevelling and angle cutting) with it's fixed head. I have had a couple of framing saws but never owned a radial arm saw.

My understanding is that you have to be extremely careful when using the RAS in ripping mode as significant positive rake can lift the board and send it right back at you and it is for this reason the negative rake blade is recommended. I would imagine that it is a poor performer even when used correctly.

Regards
Paul

[elanjacobs]

It's a real RAS, OMGA RN700, swivelling arm, tilting and rotating head. Only ever used for rough docking and non-critical cuts because every time it binds mid-cut it throws my alignment out and I can't be bothered fixing it every 6 weeks.

I can't imagine why anyone would use the rip function, I certainly wouldn't want to be near it with no riving knife.

[Bushmiller]

EJ

I think you have the answer in your useage. No ripping means no need for the positive rake.

Regards
Paul

[elanjacobs]

The only blades we use are positive rake. Negative was uncontrollable.

[Bushmiller]

EJ

Sorry, I got that around the wrong way. I should indeed have said no need for negative rake. In fact I think that is normally a feature of blades designed for cutting aluminium.

Regards
Paul

[elanjacobs]

Yes, negative rake triple chip is for non-ferrous metals, but zero or neg. rake ATB is specifically sold as a RAS crosscut blade.

https://www.cuttingedgesaws.com.au/shop/category/circular-saw-blades-industrial-saw-blades-radial-arm-saw-carbitool
Carbide Tipped Saw Blades for Radial Arm Saws | The Blade Mfg. Co (http://www.blademfg.com/carbide-tipped-saw-blades-for-radial-arm-saws/)
Freud Tools | 10" Thin Kerf Sliding Compound Miter Saw Blade (http://www.freudtools.com/index.php/products/product/LU91R010)

[ian]

I understand completely what you are saying. I do not disbelieve your experience. The engineer in me wants to understand why you had the experience that you did with the negative hook angle blade.


So do I, it was my idea to get the blade in the first place because I'd read all the technical stuff and it made sense. I guess sometimes the theory doesn't always translate to reality.like Rich, the engineer in me wants to understand how you had your experience.

were you pulling or pushing the blade through the work?

[BobL]

. . In fact I think that is normally a feature of blades designed for cutting aluminium.

Because these days I mainly use my TS to cut Al and plastic, a 100T triple chip negative raked blade has been the standard blade on my TS for the last few years.
I only swap it out when ripping or am going to cross cut larger pieces.

Being high TPI and negatively raked this blade cross cuts timber slowly but with a very fine finish similar to my 100T positively raked blade and as expected I find I have to push a bit harder than the 100 toothed positively raked blade. The blade is a Chinese made Bosch Branded and it cost about $70.

At the mens shed we have an older, HD, RAS that came fitted with a positively raked blade. The shed ning-nongs have all been shown how to use it correctly but they occasionally they still pull it too fast so that it climbs up onto the work and stalls the motor. I recommended all work be clamped against the back stop and we try a negative or zero raked blade but the sorts of things they sometimes cut with it are often oddly shaped so they cannot be easily clamped. So rather than have the saw spit the work pieces at the operator we have stayed with the positively raked blade. I get the herbie jeebies watching some blokes use that saw - another reason why I go there as little as possible.

[Chris Parks]

Yes, negative rake triple chip is for non-ferrous metals, but zero or neg. rake ATB is specifically sold as a RAS crosscut blade.

https://www.cuttingedgesaws.com.au/shop/category/circular-saw-blades-industrial-saw-blades-radial-arm-saw-carbitool
Carbide Tipped Saw Blades for Radial Arm Saws | The Blade Mfg. Co (http://www.blademfg.com/carbide-tipped-saw-blades-for-radial-arm-saws/)
Freud Tools | 10" Thin Kerf Sliding Compound Miter Saw Blade (http://www.freudtools.com/index.php/products/product/LU91R010)

Elan, I have only seen negative rake recommended for MITRE saws never RAS saws.

[elanjacobs]

Elan, I have only seen negative rake recommended for MITRE saws never RAS saws.
Well, all 3 of those links say RAS and I've seen it from other manufacturers as well :shrug:

[ian]

Hi Elan

I agree with your shrug.

This is what Rollie Johnson -- FWW's tool guru -- has to say about Radial Arm saws:
Radial arm saws have a reputation as being dangerous, overly-aggressive-cutting saws, but the real culprit isn’t the saw, it’s the blade. Radial arm saws require a negative hook angle blade, just like a chop saw. Standard positive hook angle blades simply cut too aggressively for a pull saw,
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2016/10/20/9-dewalt-radial-arm-saw

[elanjacobs]

Radial arm saws have a reputation as being dangerous, overly-aggressive-cutting saws, but the real culprit isn’t the saw, it’s the blade. Radial arm saws require a negative hook angle blade, just like a chop saw. Standard positive hook angle blades simply cut too aggressively for a pull saw,
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2016/10/20/9-dewalt-radial-arm-saw
That's the exact thing I'm calling BS on

[BobL]

In a survey of 283 WW injuries undertaken in 1996, there were 4 related related to RA injuries.
While these are small number stats RAS showed up as by far the machine with lowest level of "Exposure to first injury" - whatever that means
On reading teh research paper think it means hours working in a workshop that had an RAS available for use.
RAS users that suffered an RAS injury had on average ~1500 (38 weeks) hours of exposure before their first injury, the next lowest are jointer/planers with 3700 hours of exposure to first injury

However in terms of incidents per 1000 person hours of actual use, RAS had 2.7 incidents which is similar to bandsaws (2.6), jointer planers had the highest at 4.9.

[phaser]

Well I guess good thing do come to those who wait.
Last week end I picked up a 26" Disston (Canada) rip hand saw 3 tpi for $5.
Some dim bat painted the handle with silver paint, but I cleaned that off and varished it up, run some steel wool over the blade and sharpened it.
Looks good. I'm just about to try it out.

[aldav]

Having a bit of trouble working out what this purchase has to do with the original question in the thread. :? But if you're happy with your purchase I am too. :D

[HypnoToad]

EJ

Is the saw to which you are referring a true radial arm saw or is it a framing saw. The reason I ask this is that a RAS head can be swivelled 90 degs to the fence and used to rip. The framing saw can only crosscut (including bevelling and angle cutting) with it's fixed head. I have had a couple of framing saws but never owned a radial arm saw.

My understanding is that you have to be extremely careful when using the RAS in ripping mode as significant positive rake can lift the board and send it right back at you and it is for this reason the negative rake blade is recommended. I would imagine that it is a poor performer even when used correctly.

Regards
Paul

We had a Dewalt RAS where I worked and someone tried it for ripping some plywood and of course the piece was grabbed by the blade and came right back at the user, it was then never used for ripping again. And with cross cutting if you tried to cut too fast it would dig in and the motor would stop. It had a regular cross cut blade on it, we should have bought a negative rake blade but the place we bought it from supplied us with dedicated crosscut blade which was obviously positive rake. If used right it was a great saw though.

[phaser]

Having a bit of trouble working out what this purchase has to do with the original question in the thread. :? But if you're happy with your purchase I am too. :D

Originally I was after thoughts on rip table saw blades but I also wanted a rip hand saw.

[Mnb]

I don't get why RAS' get such a bad rap. It's an upside down table saw - yes that's a bit simplistic - but really is there a reason intrinsic to the saw that makes people think they are so dangerous?

I've been using an RAS for about a year and had far more incidents that were frightening on the table saw which I used for about the same amount of time. Yes it can lift a piece up when you rip but it takes little effort to hold the piece down. The table saw can spit it back at you if you don't hold it. I find crosscutting far safer on the RAS than the table saw unless you have a sled which makes it like an RAS.

Is there really anything more dangerous about an RAS or is it just that people are not used to using them and don't have the information on how to?

[Mnb]

BTW - I just had a look on the RAS forums and they agree with ElanJacobs. Some of them did tests and found that a negative hook angle tends to make the saw try to run through when crosscutting. The blades they recommend are slight.y positively raked. So there you go.