Calendars for your shed/workshop - Makita Girls

[Ausworkshop]

Ok, so in this politically correct world we've found ourselves in it seems it's harder and harder to find a decent calendar for the shed walls. I remember the good old days with the Makita calendars, Jim Beam, Rigid Tools, and others. Now it seems no one is doing them or if they are then they are going down a different path and providing boring images of hand drawn tool art from a tattooist.

I rang Makita (Aus) and they agreed with me, she agreed it's gone too far the other way now, she said it's sexist and I could probably find one with firemen half naked no problem but try to find one with women and sorry they no longer do them it seems. And other businesses are the same, it's like they are too scared to now.

Funny thing is the Makita girls still exist in 2018, they have their own Instagram pages, introducing Miss Makita and a Senorita Makita right here https://www.makitatools.com/events/makita-models
She's holding my chainsaw! :U

Anyway, they are already taking photos of them, already doing the shoots and using them for promotion, why not get a group of those photos together and put them into a 2018 calendar? We get to see the range of Makita tools, they get promoted, the girls are happy to promote them and even do DIY work themselves and love to use their tools. What's wrong with having a calendar for our shed walls? There's some forces at work here that I don't like.
It's time we spoke up for ourselves instead of letting all this politically correct stuff get out of control.

I've since ordered a vintage calendar, had trouble finding, if anyone knows of anyone still doing them please let me know.
The classy ones, nothing pornographic.

427845
She can sweep my shed in her green shoes anytime! What are your thoughts?

[rob streeper]

Look what you done, now I have to wash my eyes out.

[Ausworkshop]

You looked at it didn't you? Naughty man!

[Fuzzie]

I suggested to somebody the other day I actually liked looking at girls, I got the weirdo look. "I can dress however I like and you have no right to look at me."

[Ausworkshop]

That's right, men have no rights to be men anymore. Or should I say human anymore. or maybe persons have no right to be persons anymore would be the best way to put it.

[auscab]

That's right, men have no rights to be men anymore. Or should I say human anymore. or maybe persons have no right to be persons anymore would be the best way to put it.


That's what some retards actually think Aus .
I like watching what people like Andrew Bolt and Milo Yiannaopoulos have to say about this sort of thing .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqCxWk-xMA4

I really appreciate the Makita Girls . Never forget one of their girls around the late 80s . One of those full size cardboard cut outs standing amongst the tools at the tool shop :D I wanted one she was so nice . Couldnt find the courage to ask the bloke how I could get one .

Rob

[China]

No body had better come in my workshop without their eyes covered

[elanjacobs]

That's right, men have no rights to be men anymore. Or should I say human anymore. or maybe persons have no right to be persons anymore would be the best way to put it.
But what about those who self-identify as something other than a person? :doh:

It's basic biology. ALL animals are innately programmed to look at members of the opposite sex to determine if they would make a good mate for the purposes of propagating their own genetic material to the next generation. They are also programmed to promote themselves to members of the opposite sex to attract a mate for the aforementioned purpose.

If women are happy to pose for calendars, why should we miss out because some social justice warrior has decided to be offended on their behalf? To paraphrase one of my favourite comedians, Diane Spencer, "Offence is taken, not given. If none was on offer, you're stealing."

[Ausworkshop]

Yep, and I bet this decision is made by people who assume a minority will be offended then ruin it for the majority through their decisions which we the majority have no say in, I'm so sick of it, perhaps I'm just becoming a grumpy old man sooner than I thought. There's probably nothing we can do anyway. I am seriously thinking of making my own calendar though, stay tuned, 2019, W theme! Especially for Woodworkers Who like Wood and Women, and maybe the occasional Whiskey in the Workshop!

[elanjacobs]

perhaps I'm just becoming a grumpy old man sooner than I thought
I've been a grumpy old man for years and I'm only 27 :p

[Albert]

Its almost criminal to have that much clothes on calendar girls.

[AlexS]

Good to see none of them are wearing any loose clothing - that would be a safety hazard.

[chambezio]

Reading these posts reminded me of a story a mate related a long time ago. He was invited to a Trade Night put on by one of the paint suppliers. There was of coarse all the free beer and nibbles. They were then asked to take their seats for the presentation done by a tall girl wearing "hot pants" (remember them?) and a tight tee shirt. After the presentation she asked for any questions. The audience members came up with some very obscure questions on the application of materials for finishing Cabinet Making pieces. The mate said she answered each one with no trouble at all. He said it was one Trade Night where he came away with very useful information that he actually remembered

[rustynail]

So the meat market is still alive and well?

[Handyjack]

Sorry the images should not be used. No safety gear is visable. I would not like to think what happens when shavings get in the tops of clothing.

Hope no one is offended by the above.

[DaveVman]

I've never had a calendar in the shed before. However the minute some feminist expresses outrage at the practice, I'm going to rush out and buy 30 to plaster over the walls.

Modern Feminism = gross hypocrisy.
Anything I can do to wind them up and then laugh at their bigotry, count me in.

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[Lappa]

We have been told we can’t even have family pictures on our desks at work :(( Imagine the furore if there was a wall calendar with pictures of the Makita girls..:oo:

[skot]

I have no problem with Calendars in my shed...my wife does photography and a large part of her portfolio is Fine Art Nudes and she orders a couple each year with her photos.

So not only does she not have a problem...she creates the Nude calendars for me.

If someone comes into my shed and has a whinge , I direct them to my wife....or to the corridor outside my workshop...her nude pics are on all the walls as well.

[rustynail]

I have no problem with Calendars in my shed...my wife does photography and a large part of her portfolio is Fine Art Nudes and she orders a couple each year with her photos.

So not only does she not have a problem...she creates the Nude calendars for me.

If someone comes into my shed and has a whinge , I direct them to my wife....or to the corridor outside my workshop...her nude pics are on all the walls as well.
Why direct them to your wife? You should be able to stand up for yourself.

[KBs PensNmore]

I have no problem with Calendars in my shed...my wife does photography and a large part of her portfolio is Fine Art Nudes and she orders a couple each year with her photos.

So not only does she not have a problem...she creates the Nude calendars for me.

If someone comes into my shed and has a whinge , I direct them to my wife....or to the corridor outside my workshop...her nude pics are on all the walls as well.

How do we go about ordering a dozen?? PM me with details PLEASE.:D
Kryn

[Glider]

You looked at it didn't you? Naughty man!

We all looked at it, mate.

mick

[bryn23]

It's a tough one.

These days you see more female cabinetmakers and more females in the surrounding trades as well, i can see how they can get offended.

But it works both ways, they can't complain that good looking skippy girls in calendars is wrong and then think shirtless firemen calendars are fine.


I don't have a calendar in my workshop, the only time i bothered was when Lie Nielsen use to send one.

tool calendars wins in my workshop.

[skot]

rustynail,

We have a very clear demarcation in our house.......

Photos & Bonsai Plants are all her area.

Work to pay the bills, woodwork & renovations are mine.

She constantly has run ins with Facebook Admin about her being banned for showing nipples so if anybody has something to say about her pics, she will let you know about it.

I just tell them to mind their own business but if they wanted to persist, I point them to the author....one of the sisterhood. It takes the wind out of the "typical male" jibe.

My wife's work is art not titillation. It's more about shape & context than subject matter.

[rustynail]

No demarcation here. If either of use needs a hand we get it. Worked well for 40 years, see no need to change.
Had the pleasure of training two pretty young lasses in the trade. They said the reason they liked working for me was because I wasn't a sexist pig... Just a pig.

[Kiwi75]

"I was offended!!" by Steve Hughes..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

[Ausworkshop]

Sorry the images should not be used. No safety gear is visable. I would not like to think what happens when shavings get in the tops of clothing.

Hope no one is offended by the above.

Well, just like I do, I take off my top to shake the shavings out, then I usually leave it off for the rest of the day, especially in this heat. She has every right to do the same and if she truly believes in equal opportunity in the workplace she won't have a problem with it at all.

[Ausworkshop]

Classic! :2tsup:
"I was offended!!" by Steve Hughes..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

[Mnb]

I looked at this earlier and it 11 guests browsing, now it has 12. To the guests - This is not a reflection of most of the forum. If you like this thread and want more discussions like it then there is no point in joining and if you don't then don't be put off.

[Ausworkshop]

Yes, please don't be put off, we wouldn't want you to go to lumberjocks instead. Too many guys walkin around over there in bulging Y fronts from their recent visit here as guests!

[aussiemick01]

I looked at this earlier and it 11 guests browsing, now it has 12. To the guests - This is not a reflection of most of the forum. If you like this thread and want more discussions like it then there is no point in joining and if you don't then don't be put off.Can't tell if sarcasm or not.......

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[DaveVman]

Can't tell if sarcasm or not.......

Sent from my SM-G950F using TapatalkThere's always one out there seeking to be offended and hoping to shutdown discussion.

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[artme]

Interesting discussion. My personal view is that if the girls have no objections to being photographed and having their images
spread around for all and sundry to see - or ogle as the case may be - then who is anybody to object to that.

In some advertising I fail to see the relevance of pretty girls, in whatever state of dress to the product being advertised.

I see that Formula ! has decided to get rid of the grid girls, apparently as a concession to the feminazis.

[DaveVman]

Interesting discussion. My personal view is that if the girls have no objections to being photographed and having their images
spread around for all and sundry to see - or ogle as the case may be - then who is anybody to object to that.

In some advertising I fail to see the relevance of pretty girls, in whatever state of dress to the product being advertised.

I see that Formula ! has decided to get rid of the grid girls, apparently as a concession to the feminazis.

Well clearly you need to be sent to the reeducation camp. If we don't all band together and shame you for your incorrect thoughts then next you'll be trying to tell us that many young women like to take seductive pictures of themselves and publish them on the internet.

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[Ausworkshop]

Yep they have got rid of grid girls, there's a small minority pushing all this. I'm telling you, this year gone buy it seems to be worse than ever. Let's hope we see some kind of turn around in 2018. I doubt it though. Let's just face it guys, whether it's to do with sex or not our point of views or our opinions no longer matter when it comes to making decisions that effect us all. Those making these decisions (male of female) need to grow some balls and say what they really want or at least seek the opinion of the public and everyday Australians beforehand. The discussion doesn't ever seem to happen until after the change is made and then it's too late. No more Makita calendars and now no more Grid Girls. When did we find out? After it's happened.

Australians more and more just tend to go with the flow of what the rest of the world is doing, we are our own country, we have our own brains, why can't we have more of a say and why can't we hold on to and nurture or even identify our own opinions and culture?
We are scared to look like sexists or racists to the rest of the world.

[Bohdan]

In some advertising I fail to see the relevance of pretty girls, in whatever state of dress to the product being advertised.



The way I see it the girl is there to distract you from the product so you don't notice how bad it is.

The less clothing the less likely I am to buy the product.

[elanjacobs]

Grid girls are not a matter of us following the world, Formula One made the call and that's it

[Ausworkshop]

And if they wanna ban grid girls then someone else should just get in there with their own version, maybe call them the Melbourne GP girls instead, only have them when the GP is in Melbourne. Stick it to the world and tell them that Melbourne will have what ever it wants when it's hosting the GP. Do you think less people would watch around the world? Do you think they'd make less money by having grid girls? Absolutely not. If anything the controversy would be good and help to promote the Melbourne GP.

The lady I spoke to at Makita Australia about the calendars agreed with me about all this.

I think they should bring out their own Miss Makita Australia calendar, selfies could be sent in by willing women on instagram, then they could pick the 12 best for whatever reasons and get them in for a photo shoot. Print them. Put the calendars in the checkout at every Bunning store in Australia, see if they sell. THEN make the decision of weather or not to do it again in 2019 after looking at the opinions in the public.

[elanjacobs]

And if they wanna ban grid girls then someone else should just get in there with their own version, maybe call them the Melbourne GP girls instead, only have them when the GP is in Melbourne. Stick it to the world and tell them that Melbourne will have what ever it wants when it's hosting the GP. Do you think less people would watch around the world? Do you think they'd make less money by having grid girls? Absolutely not. If anything the controversy would be good and help to promote the Melbourne GP.

The lady I spoke to at Makita Australia about the calendars agreed with me about all this.

I think they should bring out their own Miss Makita Australia calendar, selfies could be sent in by willing women on instagram, then they could pick the 12 best for whatever reasons and get them in for a photo shoot. Print them. Put the calendars in the checkout at every Bunning store in Australia, see if they sell. THEN make the decision of weather or not to do it again in 2019 after looking at the opinions in the public.

Remember that WE PAY F1 to come here, not the other way. If we don't want to play by their rules, they'll just go elsewhere. Sydney's been trying to get it from us for years

[Ausworkshop]

Remember that WE PAY F1 to come here, not the other way. If we don't want to play by their rules, they'll just go elsewhere. Sydney's been trying to get it from us for years

Well maybe we should just let it go anyway, I used to go every year (for work) and the highlight for me was the fly over by the Fa/18 Hornet and the grid girls. The rest was just a very noisy expensive distraction that came and left a mess.

[FenceFurniture]

Ok, so in this politically correct world we've found ourselves in it seems it's harder and harder to find a decent calendar for the shed walls.Well the first point to make is...why the hell do you need to know what day it is when you're in the shed?

[BobL]

I see the F1 girlies have been replaced by kids which I think is fantastic.

As for the calendars, for me its subtle, if it's innocently passing by I'll take a good look or 2 or 3, but I usually dislike OTT self promoters, show offs and posers, whether its selfies, TV personalities, woodworkers or sports people, with or without their clothes on whichever media they happen to be showing off on.

[Ausworkshop]

Yes, you're right, we should just shut down the whole discussion because I don't need to know what day it is and therefore forget that I need to post this parcel and get it to WA in time for my customer's brothers 21st birthday which she told me is Wednesday next week I think, oh wait what date is that again? Let me check my phone, hang on I'll unlock it, swipe across through the Apps to the daily planner, scroll down, oops it's in week view, I need to change it to month view so I can see the number on next Wednesday, up to the top menu, pull down list, click month view, back to the calendar, oh there it is, thanks for that, now I better check all those notifications while I've got my phone in my hand, oooh someone's contacting me on Facebook, oh look at that funny Youtube video, oh hang on what was I doing again? Oh that's right, I've gotta get me a calendar on the wall to avoid all this.
I glance up, I see next Wednesday. Thanks calendar on the wall, now I can finish the notes on my invoice and get back to work knowing that I'm gonna get her brother's 21st present there in time and not forget what date it needs to be there and how many business days Aus Post will need to get it there on time. All this in one glance! I hope you can see my point, but for those who don't need one they should have the option to get one even if they want it just for the pretty pictures. That is my point.

[Ausworkshop]

Now I glance up and see this on the wall instead. Helloo February!:) And yes, it's 2018, although I wish the numbers were a bit bigger but I don't mind getting in close to see them.
429214

[aussiemick01]

Now I glance up and see this on the wall instead. Helloo February!:) And yes, it's 2018, although I wish the numbers were a bit bigger but I don't mind getting in close to see them.
429214Where'd you get the old timey one from?

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[Ausworkshop]

They are printed in NZ I think, using a collection of vintage painted pics, Gil Elvgren (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Gil+Elvgren&rlz=1C1AVNE_enAU678AU678&oq=Gil+Elvgren&aqs=chrome..69i57.1107533778j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) and others, I just got mine on Ebay, it's a bit smaller than I would have liked but that's ok, more wall space. I can get a link for the ebay ad if you like but a quick search should find them, click the link above if you want to see more of this artist's work.

Click the link then click images up the top if you want a bit more eye candy fellas! Happy scrolling :U

[Ausworkshop]

Yum

[Ausworkshop]

Oops I've hurt my thumb.

Here, let me help you hammer.
429215

[elanjacobs]

I thought this was a discussion thread, not a "see what pics the mods will let slide" thread...

[Ausworkshop]

I thought this was a discussion thread, not a "see what pics the mods will let slide" thread...

Art promotes discussion don't you think? lol,....... but you're right, I was kind of seeing what would get through. Just a bit of fun, no offence intended blah blah blah.

[elanjacobs]

None taken. Just didn't want to push our luck, I'm actually surprised it hasn't been moved to "Have your Say" already

[FenceFurniture]

The Makita Girls calendar in question is very tame compared to times gone by, and compared to what they would REALLY like to publish. Tame it may be, but it is still gratuitous draping of females over product. It is completely unnecessary. Do they really think that Tradies (the targets) will buy the brand that has the best looking, biggest chested models? Chosen over price/performance/reliability? Gimme a break.http://www.woodworkforums.com/clear.gif (http://www.woodworkforums.com/editpost.php?p=2068582&do=editpost)

In this thread there have been some frivolous posts (big deal), some semi-amusing posts, and some other posts that frankly beggar belief that they could be made in the 21st C. I shall not attempt to alter the thinking of the OP - his views are obviously quite entrenched - the number of repetitions shows that.



Yes, you're right, we should just shut down the whole discussion Oh no, no need for that but remember that you started it. However, I'm buggered if some things will go unchallenged.



What's wrong with having a calendar for our shed walls? Nothing, if your need is as strong as you've indicated....in which case you'd be satisfied with just the calendar, sans pics (of ANY kind).
It's time we spoke up for ourselves instead of letting all this politically correct stuff get out of control. :doh: Yeah, 1955 anyone? When men could be real men and not be accountable for very much?

That's right, men have no rights to be men anymore. Are you serious?? You are, aren't you. During the Cricket this season, Channel 9 had promos going for Married at First Sight. Their (deliberately selected and carefully edited) most controversial twat was saying things like "Men are getting whipped by their women now". I thought he was the last of the dinosaurs, and deliberately egged on by Ch 9.

Yep they have got rid of grid girls, there's a small minority pushing all this. Thank gawd for strong minorities then.

There's some forces at work here that I don't like. Yup, got that, super loud and clear.

I used to go every year (for work) and the highlight for me was the fly over by the Fa/18 Hornet and the grid girls. The rest was just a very noisy expensive distraction that came and left a mess. So you could stand in the next street for the flyover and then maybe go somewhere else to look at girls - certainly less money.


It's basic biology. ALL animals are innately programmed to look at members of the opposite sex to determine if they would make a good mate for the purposes of propagating their own genetic material to the next generation. Yeah, sure, it's a biological urge, but that's been the male cop-out for a while now. We also have the ability to think and respect, and no other animal does. No other animal needs dating websites either, come to think of it.



They are also programmed to promote themselves to members of the opposite sex to attract a mate for the aforementioned purpose. Makita Girls context??



Modern Feminism = gross hypocrisy.Are you able to define what modern feminism is? (No, I probably can't give a particularly good definition, but I'm not making your bold statement and nor do I believe it's gross hypocrisy).



I can see how they (females) can get offended.
But it works both ways, they can't complain that good looking skimpy girls in calendars is wrong and then think shirtless firemen calendars are fine.Agreed, but you can't assume that they are adopting that standpoint, and I'd be very surprised if anyone did - certainly it would be legitimate to tell them they are hypocrites of the finest kind.



I don't really care that the girls are exploiting male sex drive to make some easy money (from males). Had I come across it independently I couldn't have cared less about its existence - it's the way it has been brought to attention that is the problem. It's symptomatic of a bigger, uglier picture...the exploitation of women by men, in all its forms. It's been going on for millennia but entrenchment is not a reason for it to continue. There is always a danger of things going too far the other way in a correction, but if a few precious egos are thoroughly aggravated at their loss of control over other people, or loss of what they see as their red-blooded rights.....well so be it. Maybe they might begin to understand how women have felt for the duration.

I mean...if someone is this outraged at the loss of sexism skewed mightily in their favour....imagine how they would feel if the tables were turned, and it became entrenched for a short while, say just a couple of hundred years.


CAVEAT: I'm far from a wowser, definitely not a prude, not religious, and not particularly politically motivated.

[elanjacobs]

Yeah, sure, it's a biological urge, but that's been the male cop-out for a while now. We also have the ability to think and respect, and no other animal does. No other animal needs dating websites either, come to think of it.
Respecting women and enjoying looking at them are not mutually exclusive.


They are also programmed to promote themselves to members of the opposite sex to attract a mate for the aforementioned purpose.

Makita Girls context??
Possibly the reason why some women enjoy posing for such calendars? You'll have a hard time convincing me that models don't want/enjoy being looked at.

Society has been male-dominated essentially forever (the reasons behind that are another discussion) and I have no problem with that changing to bring women to a level playing field. However, I DO have a problem with the suppression of certain products/media that are being willingly produced because it doesn't fit with someone's idea of what equality is. Will the (legal) sex industry be the next to go because people who are not involved in it think that it's degrading to women?

The products don't need to change, the attitude of the consumer does. I have no idea what such an education program might be, let alone how to implement it.

[FenceFurniture]

Respecting women and enjoying looking at them are not mutually exclusive.True, but that's not the point. The point is why they are necessary in a calendar promoting power tools. Or to aid someone remembering what day they have to dispatch a job by. :doh:




Possibly the reason why some women enjoy posing for such calendars? Eh? In context that would suggest that they are looking for a tradie who likes girlie calendars. I really don't think so.
You'll have a hard time convincing me that models don't want/enjoy being looked at. Of course they do - they got lucky with good genes.


The products don't need to change, the attitude of the consumer does.Not quite sure what you mean here, but if you mean that the significantly more revealing calendars are ok (as "the products"), and the consumer needs to tolerate these then I would suggest that that is completely out of step with modern thinking. Maybe you mean something else. Are you saying that, for example, the Pirelli calendars of the "good old days" as the OP calls them are fine and dandy and people need to be ok with them? Even Playboy magazine - that started it all - has dumped nude pictures.

[Mnb]

I am really glad that a man posted this. Often those who's
views are obviously quite entrenched respond with insults and scorn if a woman makes even a rational, well argued point. It is good to be reminded that there's only
a small minority pushing all this.

Yes:

I don't really care that the girls are exploiting male sex drive to make some easy money (from males). Had I come across it independently I couldn't have cared less about its existence - it's the way it has been brought to attention that is the problem. It's symptomatic of a bigger, uglier picture...the exploitation of women by men, in all its forms. It's been going on for millennia but entrenchment is not a reason for it to continue. There is always a danger of things going too far the other way in a correction, but if a few precious egos are thoroughly aggravated at their loss of control over other people, or loss of what they see as their red-blooded rights.....well so be it. Maybe they might begin to understand how women have felt for the duration.

I mean...if someone is this outraged at the loss of sexism skewed mightily in their favour....imagine how they would feel if the tables were turned, and it became entrenched for a short while, say just a couple of hundred years

[aussiemick01]

, and not particularly politically motivated.

We will be the judge of that. And going by your delirious rants. You clearly got brainwashed at school and uni. If you don't like something. You don't get to take it away from other people so It fits your draconian delusional ideology.

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[Mnb]

I looked at this earlier and it 11 guests browsing, now it has 12. To the guests - This is not a reflection of most of the forum. If you like this thread and want more discussions like it then there is no point in joining and if you don't then don't be put off.




Regarding my above comment earlier:

I wasn't trying to shutdown the discussion - I posted that three days after the previous comment in the thread was posted. It wasn't an ongoing discussion at that point.

I wasn't seeking to be offended - it would have been very easy to be offended if I was. I could see that most of the posts were just fun and "wish we could still look at girls the way we used to" comments. (Totally understandable.) Some made valid points. Only a couple of posters were really being obnoxious .


* I have benefited enormously from being on this forum. It is the only one that I participate in. I didn't want to get into the discussion and risk offending people myself and I know it's pointless to argue with people with rather extreme entrenched views. I was quite genuine in my concern for the image of the forum.

[FenceFurniture]

We will be the judge of that. That's a pretty big call for a new boy of 3-4 weeks presence and a whole 17 posts. You have no idea of what my reputation may or may not be on this forum, and you should note that this is not a forum that tolerates keyboard tough guys with the usual kind of FB or YT flaming. You will be my judge? Oh puh-lease. :roflmao2:



And going by your delirious rants. You clearly got brainwashed at school and uni. If you don't like something. You don't get to take it away from other people so It fits your draconian delusional ideology.No brainwashing at school, didn't really go to Uni (there for a while). My attitude and outlook is something that has grown with time, listening, maturity, and life experience.

[aussiemick01]

Regarding my above comment earlier:

I wasn't trying to shutdown the discussion - I posted that three days after the previous comment in the thread was posted. It wasn't an ongoing discussion at that point.

I wasn't seeking to be offended - it would have been very easy to be offended if I was. I could see that most of the posts were just fun and "wish we could still look at girls the way we used to" comments. (Totally understandable.) Some made valid points. Only a couple of posters were really being obnoxious .


* I have benefited enormously from being on this forum. It is the only one that I participate in. I didn't want to get into the discussion and risk offending people myself and I know it's pointless to argue with people with rather extreme entrenched views. I was quite genuine in my concern for the image of the forum.Your initial comment cast denigrating aspersions on people who have done nothing morally or legally wrong. You got the backlash you deserved with your pointless virtue signalling that only detracted from the topic. It only continued because you dug up an old thread. If you had said nothing it most likely would have gone away. And no one would have been offended. Seeing as the topic is essentially a harmless one.

Just because you are offended/getting offended on behalf of an imaginary person. Does not mean you are correct, and the 'others' are wrongthinkers. And if a passerby was so traumatised by this topic, They most certainly would not be a benefit to any community they join.


Every where you go does not have to perfectly fit your worldview. When you realise that. Your life will be much more pleasant.

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[elanjacobs]

They're not necessary, they're an optional extra for those that want. I actually don't want them, but I'm not going to say that others shouldn't have them.

My comments on women enjoying posing were a remark on modelling in general, not saying that these women are looking for a tradie that likes calendars.

My attitude comment was more saying that people need to be taught that women posing for girlie magazines or becoming dancers shouldn't mean that they deserve any less respect. It shouldn't be a career path that women can't talk about or that's viewed as undignified. Is saying that "good girls" don't grow up to be girlie models any different to saying that they shouldn't be plumbers or mechanics because it's not "lady-like"?

Playboy nudes WERE gone for just one year, they're back since March 2017
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2017/02/13/playboy-brings-nudity-back-magazine/97868038/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/business/playboy-magazine-nude-pictures.html

[FenceFurniture]

They most certainly would not be a benefit to any community they join. Well I tell you what old fruit - I'm struggling to see the benefit of you in this community (all two weeks of it).

Mebbe you need to read the Terms of Use you agreed to:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/woodwork-forums-terms-conditions-tou-198339

The first line is:
Friendliness First. Please ensure that your whole post is respectful of the feelings and cultures of all others.

and in particular you should read what is under 3.0 - Material you may NOT post

[DavidG]

Moderators do not wish to interfere with robust debate but playing the man instead of the ball is a sign of weakness by the player.
Please discuss but keep it civil.

[FenceFurniture]

I looked at this earlier and it 11 guests browsing, now it has 12.
To the guests - This is not a reflection of most of the forum. That's an indisputable fact. I'm actually surprised the thread has lasted this long.
If you like this thread and want more discussions like it then there is no point in joining Nope
and if you don't then don't be put off. Yup.Flamers never last too long here before they are sorted out one way or another.


Your initial comment cast denigrating aspersions on people who have done nothing morally or legally wrong. You got the backlash you deserved with your pointless virtue signalling that only detracted from the topic. It only continued because you dug up an old thread. If you had said nothing it most likely would have gone away. And no one would have been offended. Seeing as the topic is essentially a harmless one.

Just because you are offended/getting offended on behalf of an imaginary person. Does not mean you are correct, and the 'others' are wrongthinkers. And if a passerby was so traumatised by this topic, They most certainly would not be a benefit to any community they join.

Every where you go does not have to perfectly fit your worldview. When you realise that. Your life will be much more pleasant. which was preceded by:
We will be the judge of that. And going by your delirious rants. You clearly got brainwashed at school and uni. If you don't like something. You don't get to take it away from other people so It fits your draconian delusional ideology.Uh-huh.

[DaveVman]

Are you able to define what modern feminism is? (No, I probably can't give a particularly good definition, but I'm not making your bold statement and nor do I believe it's gross hypocrisy).



Yes certainly. I'm glad you asked. It is often described as 3rd wave and sometimes 4th wave feminism. It is completely removed from 1st wave feminism. 1st wave feminism was about gaining the right to vote, property rights and similar rights that at the time had recently been granted to all men. 3rd wave feminism is something else entirely. It is a most pernicious ideology.
I don't use the term 3rd wave feminism because there are all sort of other little individual XXX feminisms that contemporary feminists like to claim/redefine. I prefer the more all encompassing term; modern or contemporary feminism.
Keep in mind the the entire discussion is predicated within the western, developed world context.

I can summarise to problem with contemporay feminism quite succinctly:
[Contemporary] feminism is about equality of OUTCOMES for in SELECTED AREAS of society which are deemed to be advantageous to WOMEN. Often while working to maintain or deepen the DISADVANTAGES in other areas faced by men.

Compare this with egalitarianism, which is what the vast majority of us prescribe to today.
Egalitarianism is about equal OPPORTUNITIES in ALL areas of society for ALL people.

This is a marked contrast to contemporary feminism when things are put into practice.

For example, feminists and feminist organisations (especially the largest most influential feminist organisations) have fought for 4 decades in almost every western country to prevent fathers and men being treated equally in the divorce industry and family courts.
- refer to '...working to maintain or deepen the DISADVANTAGES in other areas faced by men.'
Feminists have brought about things like sexist policies in large organisations where they will only hire women (ARTC in the Hunter Valley), or explicitly pay women more based solely on their genitals (ANZ bank).
(Where are the hospitals and schools that will only hire men?)
- refer to '...equality of OUTCOMES for in SELECTED AREAS of society which are deemed to be advantageous to WOMEN'.

Which brings us on to the hypocrisy of feminism. Feminism is completely riddled with hypocrisy.
Feminism is now hypocritical to it's very core. The entire paradigm it is based on is false. It assumes that women are always victims and men are oppressors just as you have done. However any objective analysis shows us that this is simply not true. I'd be happy to explain this aspect to you at length if you like. Just ask.

"...it's the way it has been brought to attention that is the problem. It's symptomatic of a bigger, uglier picture...the exploitation of women by men"
I don't understand what 'the problem' is. You don't like the tone of voice of the OP? I also don't see where is the 'exploitation of women by men' in pictures in a calendar. Please explain. 'The problem' you claim, makes no sense to me. Please do explain it.
"It's been going on for millennia " - are you referring to how men have always fought died, lost limbs and endured the greatest extremes of hardship in their attempts to protect and shield their women and children form the worst of society and to provide their women and children with relative comfort? Is that what you were referring to? Or did that little factoid skip your attention? Please do tell us how the white feather brigade of the first world war was so oppressed by the millions of men dying on the front in the mud like flies. Oh! How privileged men have been!

Also please do explain how some imaginary privilege that happened millennia ago, is relevant to calendars today.
By that logic, you should give away your house to an aboriginal, apologize for being born here and get on the next plane out of Australia. I mean, surely that is your responsibility by your own logic. No?

I trust I am being respectful to you. I'm just logically following your claims to demonstrate how they are based on a false and hypocritical paradigm.
Probably like most people, you are just repeating what you have been taught by feminists without any real analysis. I'm not trying to have a go at you. I'm trying to get you to objectively look at the matra you have been fed.

The original OP is not asking for calendars of naked firemen to be banned. If a female what to cover their shed, or studio or private space with naked firemen, I'm sure he has no objection. However other people are shutting down anyone who would offer him the same opportunity to put up pictures of sexy women. The OP was under the impression that we no longer live in the Victorian era. And it seems women do not. Hence the OP asks, why are men expected to live under these Victorian 'morals'? It's yet another example of feminist hypocrisy and I don't believe you have justified it.
If he want's calendars in his private shed, from his regular supplier of such things, why would anyone object unless they are authoritarian?
Answer: they ARE authoritarian. by definition.

[Mnb]

Thank you for deleting the post insulting Fence Furniture.

Elan - I see your point. The problem is that it's such a feedback loop.

Partly the issue is that things like calendars with objectified models (advertisements, magazines etc) influence and often shape the way we see things. They also only work or sell because they take advantage of the way we see things. Like the example of calendars with firemen on them - it really annoys me that rather than avoiding objectifying women society has now started objectifying men as well. That may be more equal but ... In the last ten years or so there has been a huge increase in teen boys with eating disorders.

Things like the Makita or Firemen calendars would probably not be an issue if not for the attitudes behind them. Just admiring the opposite sex is no big deal. Unfortunately it isn't like that yet.

I'm not a big supporter of censorship. How do you change the ingrained attitudes though?

Personally I don't think the sex trade should be illegal. For one thing the conditions for workers would be far worse. On the other hand a lot of the women and boys in the trade are there because they think they are worth nothing more. Not all. There are people that would willingly choose it even if they had other options but they are the minority.

EDIT: I wrote this before Elan's feminism post.

[Mnb]

Thanks Moderator :)

I disagree with Elan but he has made an argument and not insults. Would like to reply.

[aussiemick01]

None of what I wrote attacked anyone. It was what they said/did that was criticised.

Obviously wrong think. I'll just step away from this discussion as I'm not part of the right think.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[elanjacobs]

On the other hand a lot of the women and boys in the trade are there because they think they are worth nothing more. Not all. There are people that would willingly choose it even if they had other options but they are the minority.
What are you basing that on? I have actually asked several sex workers and adult dancers why they went in to such a stigmatised industry and their answers were all along the lines of "the hours are flexible, the money is good and it's generally fun". Some were single mums, some were funding higher education, some were doing it to supplement their regular income.

Admittedly it's a small sample size, but it's not always a sad story.

[Ausworkshop]

Well this has been some interesting reading, thank you to all that have contributed so far, and some posts have actually opened my eyes and taught me some things, it's great to see all the different views. I guess all I was trying to do is find out what others thought and see if my thoughts are along the lines with anyone else or I'm just viewed as a sexist pig. I didn't really want it to become a fight or to rally all men to stand up for themselves or whatever.

It's really just about the thing I have hanging on my wall in my shed. I'm enjoying my calendar, I just wish it was woodworking/tool related somehow. No I don't need it to be, just wonder why it can no longer be. And I'm glad it hasn't got to the point where there is absolutely none out there to buy. Not yet anyway.


P.S. I think I might take it down when my parents drop by, although the missus doesn't mind, she's on my side, she actually helped me choose it! It doesn't matter where you get your appetite from, as long as you eat at home!:)

[FenceFurniture]

Thank you for deleting the post insulting Fence Furniture. I musta missed something.

Partly the issue is that things like calendars with objectified models (advertisements, magazines etc) influence and often shape the way we see things. They also only work or sell because they take advantage of the way we see things.
Like the example of calendars with firemen on them - it really annoys me that rather than avoiding objectifying women society has now started objectifying men as well. Yes, it's an example of an over-correction, or two wrongs trying to be right. The thing to do is just stop objectifying women.
That may be more equal but ... In the last ten years or so there has been a huge increase in teen boys with eating disorders.

Things like the Makita or Firemen calendars would probably not be an issue if not for the attitudes behind them. Exactly. I'm assuming that you are a woman, and would not have witnessed what I have in various male-only lunchrooms. It is true that the less educated the lunchroom the bawdier/lewder/more disgusting the comments, but even highly educated lunchrooms can be pretty rugged.

Just admiring the opposite sex is no big deal. No Unfortunately it isn't like that yet. No

I'm not a big supporter of censorship. How do you change the ingrained attitudes though? They are changing, but there are still some Dinosaurs left roaming. They will eventually go.All very well said by Mnb.





For example, feminists and feminist organisations (especially the largest most influential feminist organisations) have fought for 4 decades in almost every western country to prevent fathers and men being treated equally in the divorce industry and family courts. Been there myself, and more than anything I think it was just a way of women beating men up in response to how they have been treated - so another over-correction. Sensible mothers acknowledge that kids need two parents, provided they are fit to be in contact with them. There is no one size fits all.

- refer to '...working to maintain or deepen the DISADVANTAGES in other areas faced by men.' That's getting a bit emotive.

Feminists have brought about things like sexist policies in large organisations where they will only hire women (ARTC in the Hunter Valley), or explicitly pay women more based solely on their genitals (ANZ bank). Woman getting paid more? Sacred Bluey!! That's a pretty poor argument.

I'd be happy to explain this aspect to you at length if you like. Just ask. Actually, I'll pass on that.....it's been plenty long enough already.

"...it's the way it has been brought to attention that is the problem. It's symptomatic of a bigger, uglier picture...the exploitation of women by men"
I don't understand what 'the problem' is. You don't like the tone of voice of the OP? I also don't see where is the 'exploitation of women by men' in pictures in a calendar. Please explain. 'The problem' you claim, makes no sense to me. Please do explain it. Well you may have to think some of this through for yourself, but just one of the things that is a big problem is the way young girls (generally teenagers) are expected to perform or look in a certain way because their boyfriends demand what they can see on the internet. If they won't do it they don't get boyfriends or get slut-shamed for not being a slut, or ridiculed, bullied etc.

A while back, and not really so long ago, teenage suicide was not "a problem" like it is now, in fact is was virtually unheard of - think about how little teen suicide there was in the late 70s when you were a teenager. This is of course not what the OP is referring to - but you asked me to explain what I meant by a bigger uglier picture. That's a small snippet of it.

"It's been going on for millennia " - are you referring to how men have always fought died, lost limbs and endured the greatest extremes of hardship in their attempts to protect and shield their women and children form the worst of society and to provide their women and children with relative comfort? Is that what you were referring to? Or did that little factoid skip your attention? Please do tell us how the white feather brigade of the first world war was so oppressed by the millions of men dying on the front in the mud like flies. Oh! How privileged men have been! You are trying to put a lot of words into my mouth - emotive words. But to respond to the first part - men start the vast majority all wars. Losing limbs and lives is not a justification for the low value that women have generally been given. Even getting a vote so that they could have more of a say took hundreds of years. Women had to give over everything they owned to their husbands when they got married. But you know all this - you're just choosing to ignore it now that it doesn't happen anymore.

Also please do explain how some imaginary privilege that happened millennia ago, is relevant to calendars today.
By that logic, you should give away your house to an aboriginal, apologize for being born here and get on the next plane out of Australia. I mean, surely that is your responsibility by your own logic. No? You are going through some pretty crazy leaps there, and not being at all logical.

The original OP is not asking for calendars of naked firemen to be banned. No.
If a female what to cover their shed, or studio or private space with naked firemen, I'm sure he has no objection. Well he couldn't possibly object could he?Too much emotive language used by DaveVman to be bothered responding to much of it. Before I read his response, I asked my partner to read it and comment to me. First and second wave stuff - all good. Third wave - grossly cherry picked and out of kilter. Just an opinion, not a definition, and most certainly not indicative of her view of modern feminism. Yes, she says, there have been over-corrections and mistakes made, but at least things are overall better than they were. It ain't perfect but it's a work in progress.




I'll just repeat what I said before - had I seen the calendar or pics they probably wouldn't have bothered me much at all. The point is that they are unnecessary. If you need a calendar then get one. If you want pics of women in your shed, well do it for crying out loud. It's a private space, but it does not mean that other people have to like it, or can't disagree with it, should you decide to make it public (by yapping about it here).

[FenceFurniture]

.....need to grow some balls and say what they really want
P.S. I think I might take it down when my parents drop by, That's not very ballsy.

[Mnb]

I had decided to ignore this thread then I changed my mind. I wrote quite an extensive post which was logical and had quotes. Unfortunately my internet died and I lost it because I wasn't logged in or something. Anyway this is off the top of my head and I'm not going to check it before I post so if I say the wrong thing sorry.

1. I used to work with junkies and knew a lot of sex workers. You got a standard answer. It is partly true and actually true for a very few. Most people whether men or women become sex workers or strippers because they feel that is the best they deserve, that is all they are good for, that they can at least be paid for what they are forced to do or were forced to do, that they have at least got a small amount of choice in how they are treated (security backup - there is always someone there whether it is at a brothel or someone waiting in the car when they do home visits or someone following in a car when on the street) or they have absolutely no choice. There is actually a human trade in Australia and many of the women in the legal brothels, particularly Vic and NSW, literally have no choice.

2. I agree that many fourth wave feminists are hypocritical. Just as those men who would plaster their walls with calendars to p#ss someone off that has a go at them for it or who love to anger feminists or rejects any attempt to explain the way women are oppressed and instead insult a man that disagrees - well some women are sick of it and go to far too.

3. Delusional? I must have been delusional when I wasn't allowed to play footy as a kid. Cause that was taken away from me by a draconian idealogy. Well I was 5,6, and 7. I didn't have breasts and I was faster and better than the boys. Yep dellusional. In grade four they took away my right to play at the M.C.G. because I was a girl and it meant that a boy missed out. But that was millennia ago? They are specifics but you know I could mention that they took away my right to have the aim of being a soldier, an engineer, an astronaut, a spy, a software engineer, a CEO, a martial artist, a detective, a producer, an editor, an architect, a builder, a million other things because they weren't things that girls do - A WOODWORKER!! There are still #@$% all women woodworkers, cabinet makers, joiners, high quality furniture makers etc that are out there for young girls to see and aspire to be.

3. I don't really know what I have written but I know that if anyone thinks that men do women a favour by "protecting and shielding" them then they certainly don't see us as equals.

[rwbuild]

Is not beauty in the eye of the beholder regardless of anyone else s view and does not the mouth lay bare what is in ones heart good or bad.
My old high school moto was "As a man thinks, so shall he be", the same applies to a woman.

[Mnb]

lol. Indeed. As a person thinks so shall they be ...

And:
"Be not afraid of greatness" ...

But some of us are taught to be afraid. We are taught how to think. Unfortunately not just women.




Just as Fence Furniture points out - the issue isn't bout the pics - you obviously have access to them. Perhaps the trade off in losing your Makita girls calendar is more than made up for in the ability to access and print out any sort of pornographic picture you would desire?

So next time there is a war I suggest you ASK the nearest women whether they would trade their position for yours -

OR BETTER YET MAYBE BE EQUALS

[DaveVman]

I had decided to ignore this thread then I changed my mind. I wrote quite an extensive post which was logical and had quotes. Unfortunately my internet died and I lost it because I wasn't logged in or something. Anyway this is off the top of my head and I'm not going to check it before I post so if I say the wrong thing sorry.

1. I used to work with junkies and knew a lot of sex workers. You got a standard answer. It is partly true and actually true for a very few. Most people whether men or women become sex workers or strippers because they feel that is the best they deserve, that is all they are good for, that they can at least be paid for what they are forced to do or were forced to do, that they have at least got a small amount of choice in how they are treated (security backup - there is always someone there whether it is at a brothel or someone waiting in the car when they do home visits or someone following in a car when on the street) or they have absolutely no choice. There is actually a human trade in Australia and many of the women in the legal brothels, particularly Vic and NSW, literally have no choice.

2. I agree that many fourth wave feminists are hypocritical. Just as those men who would plaster their walls with calendars to p#ss someone off that has a go at them for it or who love to anger feminists or rejects any attempt to explain the way women are oppressed and instead insult a man that disagrees - well some women are sick of it and go to far too.

3. Delusional? I must have been delusional when I wasn't allowed to play footy as a kid. Cause that was taken away from me by a draconian idealogy. Well I was 5,6, and 7. I didn't have breasts and I was faster and better than the boys. Yep dellusional. In grade four they took away my right to play at the M.C.G. because I was a girl and it meant that a boy missed out. But that was millennia ago? They are specifics but you know I could mention that they took away my right to have the aim of being a soldier, an engineer, an astronaut, a spy, a software engineer, a CEO, a martial artist, a detective, a producer, an editor, an architect, a builder, a million other things because they weren't things that girls do - A WOODWORKER!! There are still #@$% all women woodworkers, cabinet makers, joiners, high quality furniture makers etc that are out there for young girls to see and aspire to be.

3. I don't really know what I have written but I know that if anyone thinks that men do women a favour by "protecting and shielding" them then they certainly don't see us as equals.

I'm traveling so apologies for the typos.

Point 2: the thing is that you haven't explained how women today are oppressed any more than men are. In particular calendar girls.

I like to mock contemporary feminists sometimes because it illustrates how absurd their ideology has become. However I haven't done that much here or in any reasonable discussion on the topic.

I didn't get to compete in girls sports when I was 5 6 or 7. Oh the oppression!
For some weird reason I didn't wallow in victimhood. Instead as an adult I played mixed sport because it's fun.

There's plenty of women woodworkers for inspiration. Heard of YouTube? The reason there are not a large number of women woodworkers is because it doesn't interest most women. There's no magical force stopping women being woodworkers. I've read nothing but encouragement for them here for example.
Of course it helps if a woman takes up the hobby without a victimhood complex and just for the enjoyment of working with wood like everyone else.

Point 3. The point of men protecting women was very clearly referring to the past in the context of pointing out the realities of historical life for the vast majority of people. It's not as if feminists are adverse to special treatment today.

If we're all for equality of opportunity then the OP has a point that political pressure should not be applied to toe the line of a particular ideology.


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[BobL]

There's no magical force stopping women being woodworkers. I've read nothing but encouragement for them here for example.


I'm not so sure, the amount of encouragement is good but is still overwhelmed by subtle negative expectations from family, friends and especially peers, and not so subtle expectations in things like social/media. Apart from trash like the Block, how often do you see a female celebrity wielding a tool versus wielding an absurd boob job. The Australian of the year is still an exception in her field. I like what she said regarding clearing the way to enable kids to "do what you want to do". This has to include removing negative expectations from the pressure equation.

[rustynail]

What a sorry lot of poster hanging, knuckle dragging morons we have here. And to think I thought it was a woodwork forum.

[Bushmiller]

3. I must have been delusional when I wasn't allowed to play footy as a kid. Cause that was taken away from me by a draconian idealogy. Well I was 5,6, and 7. I didn't have breasts and I was faster and better than the boys.

Firstly Mnb, thank you for deciding to return. One of the problems we have in discussing issues of this nature is that we cherry pick, because we are human we all have our own agendas. Consequently we ignore or brush over aspects that don't fit our story.

I have "cherry picked" your comment above because last night I saw a programme that compared seven year old boys and girls. The attitudes of the girls was that they basically had no worth and that of the boys was that they were bigger and stronger and destined to rule. None of this was true. They had a competition using a hammer and a gong (hit the button and send up a ball to sound the gong.) None of the girls thought they would be able to do this. The boys were supremely confident. The results showed that the strength of the girls was equal to the boys.

Turns out that in in pre-pubescent children, girls and boys of equal body mass have equal strength. Different post puberty where male body mass tends to be higher and on average women now have only two thirds the strength of men (I'm probably going to be shot down on that one, but I think the principle is there.)

Just returning to the original subject I think much of the discussion comes down to preconceived ideas and in particular respect. "Respect": For me that is the key word. So how does that fit in with a calendar featuring scantily clad girls, which as it happens I am quite comfortable admiring? I am thinking here as I write so in that regard this is a dynamic post (but not necessarily dynamite). I don't believe the girls who posed did it under duress is my first comment. On the contrary I suspect they were very comfortable performing for the camera and probably had a huge giggle. I would also surmise that there were a number of shots that were never published because they were too risque for what is really a very tame photo shoot, but that is complete conjecture (fantasy?) on my part.

So if they are content and not participating under duress, what is our objection as either a male or a female? Are we saying this is demeaning? Are we saying this is unnecessary? Ahem, this is advertising. All advertising is unnecessary: Unless you want to get your name out there and enjoy a profitable business. Makita compete with the likes of Bosch, Metabo, DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Panasonic and a whole myriad lesser makes. Just the fact we are discussing this calendar from Makita's point of view has justified it's existence! The likes of Pirelli and others enjoyed the same prestige. I suspect, but don't know, that a model who posed for the famed Pirelli calendars was guaranteed a successful career.

Ok back to the issue. We managed to digress from the calendar aspect and introduce other aspects of feminism and exploitation. These are huge subjects in themselves. I don't wish to detract from any of the implied injustices of equality. However, remember my criteria of respect? Is the calendar dis-respectful? Does it demean women? Does it exploit women? Now, please consider, does it exploit men? I actually believe it very much exploits men. It exploits the ease in which we are flattered. It is a female - male juxtaposition.

Incidentally, back in about 1977 I remember visiting an office comprised of only girls where they had a large poster of a male nude on the wall. Neither were they told to take it down by the managing director, who turned beetroot red every time he walked in.

I am starting to digress so I should call a halt. The point I am making here is that it is easy to see a larger implication of the calendar than there really is. Of course there are the separate issues of equality, feminism, sexual exploitation and simply the basic interaction of the male and female, but I think it is a stretch (arguably an understandable stretch) to blame it all on a calendar. It is advertising.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Just as I said the OP is entrenched in his thinking and there is little point in expending the energy to reform it, the same applies to DaveVman, unfortunately. Continued use of such emotive language rules out any possibility of reasonable communication, so it becomes a waste of time and effort.


However, this:

Point 2: the thing is that you haven't explained how women today are oppressed any more than men are....can only be responded to with a John McEnroe quote...

That idea that women are these days at least as well off as men is just crackers. Oh, and pointing out various things that have been denied on the basis of gender is not playing a victim card (particularly in the way it was said). It is stating the facts of the matter - the bleeding obvious, at least to those without their heads stuck in a calendar. An emotionally mature person can see that.




A reference to a female partner or wife as "the wife" or "the missus" sounds like a reference to an object or chattel, and is degrading in my opinion. "My wife" is personal and sounds like it is referring to an actual human being, not a dog or something. We never see "The Partner" or "The son or daughter", it's always "My Partner" etc. It would seem that the use of "The wife" is done deliberately as a put-down, for the purpose of de-humanising, degradation, and devaluing. "SWMBO", "The Finance Minister" et al are tongue in cheek, and are a different story.

Relevance of the above? At least one of the main protagonists in this thread has used that reference at least once in here, but I don't think I could be fagged wading through all the tosh so I can quote it.

[FenceFurniture]

Paul, as usual I find myself in broad agreement with you. A couple of things:
Are we saying this is unnecessary? Ahem, this is advertising. All advertising is unnecessary: Unless you want to get your name out there and enjoy a profitable business. Makita compete with the likes of Bosch, Metabo, DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, Panasonic and a whole myriad lesser makes. Just the fact we are discussing this calendar from Makita's point of view has justified it's existence! Well yeah, I am saying it's unnecessary. I'd be pretty sure that Ratbag (the forum power tool guru) would not be swayed one iota to buy Makita as a result of the calendar. At the other end of the scale of tool knowledge (say moi) would also do the research to find out what is best for my needs rather than just thinking with my genitals and hoping for the best (Ahem - I am actually a Makita user...:D)

I wouldn't be swayed either. We will obviously never know, but if that calendar cost say $20,000 to produce, then I suggest that is $20,000 less Makita profit that year and would not sell a single extra tool. Absolutely the only time I can see it working (and this is a long shot) is for someone walking into a hardware store with a Sgt Schultz knowledge of tools and brands. They see the Makita poster hanging from somewhere and are drawn to it magically, and make a purchase with nil further consideration.



The likes of Pirelli and others enjoyed the same prestige. I suspect, but don't know, that a model who posed for the famed Pirelli calendars was guaranteed a successful career.Maybe, but how many Weinsteins are there still unaccountable for their actions in the fashion/modelling world.

In fact, that is a good one for DaveVman to respond to with his thoughts that women are no longer oppressed any more than men. Were Weinstein's targets victims? Were they oppressed? I think the number that have come out is around 70, but we have to wonder what the actual number was (as if 70 is not enough). Does DaveVman think that this sort of behaviour is not rife around the world, and that women have not been generally sexualised? I would never suggest that he (DV) would think the behaviour is okay, but does he see it as oppression, that women have to yield to such monsters as Weinstein and countless et al, just to stay in their chosen career, let alone progress? And how many of his victims actually went along with it and are too afraid still to speak out - because they would be slut-shamed.

[A Duke]

Maybe we should all be taken to the Vet at puberty.

[Bushmiller]

Paul, as usual I find myself in broad agreement with you. A couple of things:Well yeah, I am saying it's unnecessary. I'd be pretty sure that Ratbag (the forum power tool guru) would not be swayed one iota to buy Makita as a result of the calendar. At the other end of the scale of tool knowledge (say moi) would also do the research to find out what is best for my needs rather than just thinking with my genitals and hoping for the best (Ahem - I am actually a Makita user...:D)

I wouldn't be swayed either. We will obviously never know, but if that calendar cost say $20,000 to produce, then I suggest that is $20,000 less Makita profit that year and would not sell a single extra tool. Absolutely the only time I can see it working (and this is a long shot) is for someone walking into a hardware store with a Sgt Schultz knowledge of tools and brands. They see the Makita poster hanging from somewhere and are drawn to it magically, and make a purchase with nil further consideration.


Maybe, but how many Weinsteins are there still unaccountable for their actions in the fashion/modelling world.

.

Hells Bells FenceFurniture, I'm supposed to be building an office desk! I should be up to my wall calendar in sawdust before morning tea and instead I am responding to this thread, which I hasten to add I find interesting. Male/female issues are interesting. I'm not completely sure what else there is in life, with the exception of woodwork, and hand saws in particular, of course.

In pointing out that the calendar is advertising, that does not mean it is successful advertising or that it will influence everybody. If the worst it achieves is putting the Makita (see I have just said it again) name in front of a potential buyer, it has not been an entire waste of money from their point of view. If the cost of production was $20,000 (actually I would guess at least ten times that. $20,000 would probably only cover the photo shoot let alone production of the calendar itself) it was part of an allocated "below the line budget" and if it was not spent there it would have been spent on some other, possibly useless, idea. Some advertising campaigns are successful and some are not. The difficulty for the manufacturer comes in evaluating the worth of the campaign.

I have no doubt that with your research skills you would not be swayed one iota and indeed you might be put off because it offends your ability to decide for yourself. I did make up a calendar for 1916 but was unable to persuade any attractive girls to pose with the handsaws. On reflection I don't think two beers was sufficient incentive and clearly my powers of persuasion are decidedly less than I imagine them to be.

The Harvey Weinsteins and others closer to home are all being forced out of the woodwork (intentional pun) and so they should be. It is the only way that such things will diminish (I nearly said stop, but that is probably unrealistic). There is always bullying and the Weinstein experience is just (if I can be forgiven for saying "just") sexual bullying. I quite easily believe the famed stories of the "casting couch."

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Well yeah, I am saying it's (advertising) unnecessary.To be clear: I mean advertising in the form of calendars for tool brands. Some advertising is necessary to provide awareness of new tools, but the reality these days is that the internet and forums such as this one are all people need to make their decisions on purchases (and a much more valued decision at that). For example, I don't believe for a moment that a tradie would buy a new tool because he saw it advertised on TV. That is just the first medium that he saw it on. He is just as likely to be sent an email about it, see it in the workplace, read about it on a forum, so the TV stuff is really just a waste of money (in that case).

[FenceFurniture]

On reflection I don't think two beers was sufficient incentive and clearly my powers of persuasion are decidedly less than I imagine them to be.Perhaps try the persuasion before you have the beers next time? :roflmao2:

[FenceFurniture]

... it was part of an allocated "below the line budget" and if it was not spent there it would have been spent on some other, possibly useless, idea.They can always decide to reduce the advertising budget, and take it as profit or devote it to research (of batteries in particular). It doesn't just "have to be spent" - that only happens guvmint departments.

[BobL]

Here is an interesting thing I did with students in the last 10 or so years of my physics teaching at uni.

With every major assessment, students were provided with an assessment guideline (an A4 page which listed in detail what was required to achieve maximum marks for an assessment, with marks being allocated for each section down to about the 5% level) so right up front the students knew what was expected of them. Alongside each criteria was a 2 column table - one column was where students entered their own assessment of their effort at a specific criteria, and the next column over was for the assessors grade for that criteria. This gets around a major teaching problem where students have to guess what's in the teachers head.

Invariably males started out the semester with most of them thinking they were much better than they were ie claim 75%, but were lucky to get 50%. Females were the opposite. By half way through the semester most students would understand the requirements and modify their expectations accordingly. It was uncanny how the marks in the two columns coincided with each other including the out-n-out slackers who accepted their <50% grades with only a few of these students asking me "how can I improve my marks".

On top of this, the students had the opportunity to obtain bonus marks if they added to an assignment meaningful material/work that went above and beyond the assessment guidelines but not many students (~10%) did this. Even though males represented about 80% of the students about equal numbers of males and females obtained bonus marks. I attributed this to the fact that we simply did not see that many middle of the road female students. We seemed to see female students who thought they were good enough to succeed - OTOH we saw lots of male students who caused themselves, their parents and teachers much grief and failed to complete their degrees.

[Ausworkshop]

Well this is good, I think I've been called a moron, knuckledragger, and now I'm degrading my wife.
In my opinion I don't really like using the term missus either, I probably shouldn't have now that I think about it. In fact it's interesting that I never used to until I participated in forums like this, in fact most of the language I use in posts is from this particular forum and I've learned these things from other members here, not passing blame just an interesting thing to point out.

For example, I'd never even heard of the SWMBO reference until I read it on here probably over 10 years ago now. I know it was on here because I remember clearly looking it up because I didn't know what it meant, plus this is the forum I read the most because it's in my view the best forum in the world, not just because it's woodworking related either.. Anyway I guess the point I'm trying to make is we all tend to change our language and opinions ever so slightly with what we see read and hear in everyday life, over time these change, this has happened to me with the use of the term missus. I used that because I find it less degrading than SWMBO in some way, I know you view that as more tongue in cheek but I view it as the other way around. I used to hear guys use the term missus when I was at Tech school or Tafe, probably the first time I heard it used for a guys partner, most who used it were a little on the bogan side, I guess I started using it around the same time as a way to 'fit in' I think.

I've always struggled with where do draw the line at what is viewed as an Australian term or use of language and where it becomes bogan or more feral so to speak. I might use words I wouldn't normally use in order to fit in with the crowd I'm in at the time for example. Or at least this is what I thought the crowd would use.

Speaking of which, although I haven't posted that many times on here over the years compared to some, I do read a lot on here and have been around since the early days before I even became a member. I've noticed a slight change in the 'crowd' opinion and tones, attitudes whatever. I don't want to say all this because I'm trying to change it and perhaps it's been a change for the good in most cases but without sounding too much like a knuckle dragging moron I rekon it was better in the good old days. Sorry, but maybe I'm a bogan, maybe I like that about an Australian forum, maybe I don't like the way that's all changed as well. But who is gonna care? Or do anything to change that? I don't expect anyone to, but I don't have to like it. I think some people need to take their head out of the clouds, stop looking to America so much for answers to any discussion. Hold on to our 'bogan' ways if that's what they are and learn where to draw the line between what is proudly Aussie and what we should leave behind in the dark ages and move on from.

That's what I want this post to be about, please don't get too much off topic, but I do enjoy reading it all and thanks again.
I just think we need to identify and perhaps hold on to some of these things in Australia, don't throw everything away just because we assume it's looked down upon or viewed as being too moronic or bogan in this modern world.

Let's face it, Australia, especially rural areas are full of Bogans and what some would call Morons, it's one of the things I like about this country, it makes me feel Australian I guess and it's what I think separates us from the rest of the world. You don't have to like them or agree with their ideas but just remember without them, hard working Aussies, ANZAC's, and other larrikins from our history, this country would be very different.

[elanjacobs]

A reference to a female partner or wife as "the wife" or "the missus" sounds like a reference to an object or chattel, and is degrading in my opinion. "My wife" is personal and sounds like it is referring to an actual human being, not a dog or something. We never see "The Partner" or "The son or daughter", it's always "My Partner" etc. It would seem that the use of "The wife" is done deliberately as a put-down, for the purpose of de-humanising, degradation, and devaluing. "SWMBO", "The Finance Minister" et al are tongue in cheek, and are a different story.

Really? You've never come across "How are the boys/girls/kids?"

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I think it may be somewhat unfounded in this case.

[Ausworkshop]

They can always decide to reduce the advertising budget, and take it as profit or devote it to research (of batteries in particular). It doesn't just "have to be spent" - that only happens guvmint departments.

The Makita girls already exist, have done photo shoots this year and are promoting tools or whatever, this would cost money. Why not use some of that existing budget to get some calendars made using photos that are already edited, photoshopped, and in use?
(not that I'm saying they need photoshopping by the way)

[FenceFurniture]

Well good on you Andrew for fessing up to learning at least a little something! :2tsup: There's nothing wrong with using colloquial language or vernacular, and Australia has probably the world's richest and most unique. So it's not the use of "missus" (or hubby, bloke etc etc), it's the "the" that is the problem - it objectifies rather than personalises. I would object to it just as strongly in context of "the hubby" as opposed to "my hubby".

[FenceFurniture]

The Makita girls already exist, have done photo shoots this year and are promoting tools or whatever, this would cost money. Why not use some of that existing budget to get some calendars made using photos that are already edited, photoshopped, and in use?Some part of the production will always be in progress, so whenever the time comes for Makita (et al) to grow a pair as you say, and call time on using gratuitous sex for advertising there will always have been some budget already spent that is going to be wasted. The only time that would not be the case is when they decide that "this year's project is the last" to which I would say "It doesn't work anyway, stop it right now and save the dough".

[Ausworkshop]

I don't object at all, in fact I think adding the 'The' makes it sound even more respectful. Kind of like 'The Boss', what's wrong with that? let's face it most women are in some ways the boss, I respect that, men and women contribute different things in any relationship but in my opinion women are the better planners and getting stuff organised or deciding things with the whole family in mind when making decisions, the list goes on, the man also has areas he's good at or 'The Boss' so I think it also depends on the situation and when and how you are referring to them, context.

I don't think referring to them as being in charge is disrespectful at all.
I wouldn't introduce my wife at a dinner party and refer to her as the missus (not that I ever go to dinner parties)
But if I was down the local pub and said I better get going, the missus is waiting to borrow the car to go do some shopping, then I don't see a problem with that either and I'd like to think most Australians wouldn't.

[rustynail]

Well this is good, I think I've been called a moron, knuckledragger, and now I'm degrading my wife.
In my opinion I don't really like using the term missus either, I probably shouldn't have now that I think about it. In fact it's interesting that I never used to until I participated in forums like this, in fact most of the language I use in posts is from this particular forum and I've learned these things from other members here, not passing blame just an interesting thing to point out.

For example, I'd never even heard of the SWMBO reference until I read it on here probably over 10 years ago now. I know it was on here because I remember clearly looking it up because I didn't know what it meant, plus this is the forum I read the most because it's in my view the best forum in the world, not just because it's woodworking related either.. Anyway I guess the point I'm trying to make is we all tend to change our language and opinions ever so slightly with what we see read and hear in everyday life, over time these change, this has happened to me with the use of the term missus. I used that because I find it less degrading than SWMBO in some way, I know you view that as more tongue in cheek but I view it as the other way around. I used to hear guys use the term missus when I was at Tech school or Tafe, probably the first time I heard it used for a guys partner, most who used it were a little on the bogan side, I guess I started using it around the same time as a way to 'fit in' I think.

I've always struggled with where do draw the line at what is viewed as an Australian term or use of language and where it becomes bogan or more feral so to speak. I might use words I wouldn't normally use in order to fit in with the crowd I'm in at the time for example. Or at least this is what I thought the crowd would use.

Speaking of which, although I haven't posted that many times on here over the years compared to some, I do read a lot on here and have been around since the early days before I even became a member. I've noticed a slight change in the 'crowd' opinion and tones, attitudes whatever. I don't want to say all this because I'm trying to change it and perhaps it's been a change for the good in most cases but without sounding too much like a knuckle dragging moron I rekon it was better in the good old days. Sorry, but maybe I'm a bogan, maybe I like that about an Australian forum, maybe I don't like the way that's all changed as well. But who is gonna care? Or do anything to change that? I don't expect anyone to, but I don't have to like it. I think some people need to take their head out of the clouds, stop looking to America so much for answers to any discussion. Hold on to our 'bogan' ways if that's what they are and learn where to draw the line between what is proudly Aussie and what we should leave behind in the dark ages and move on from.

That's what I want this post to be about, please don't get too much off topic, but I do enjoy reading it all and thanks again.
I just think we need to identify and perhaps hold on to some of these things in Australia, don't throw everything away just because we assume it's looked down upon or viewed as being too moronic or bogan in this modern world.

Let's face it, Australia, especially rural areas are full of Bogans and what some would call Morons, it's one of the things I like about this country, it makes me feel Australian I guess and it's what I think separates us from the rest of the world. You don't have to like them or agree with their ideas but just remember without them, hard working Aussies, ANZAC's, and other larrikins from our history, this country would be very different.
I think you will find there are far more Bogans and Morons in our large cities than in rural areas. The city cares for them. In the bush they would starve. I dont think too many of the rioters at Cronulla came from the country.

[FenceFurniture]

Really? You've never come across "How are the boys/girls/kids?"
Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I think it may be somewhat unfounded in this case.Nah Elan, you know what I mean. If you asked me "How's the wife" it is completely different and you know it. And if you did ask me that, my response would be likely (with a strong emphasis on "my") "My wife is well".

If I have to spell it out it is the plural that justifies the use of "the" in the example you cited (although "the" could still be substituted by our, your, my, his, her, their). How many times have you heard "how is the girl" rather than "how is your daughter"? Somewhere between never and not too many, I'll wager. Just the same as I would not expect anyone to say "how is the son" because son is more personalised than boy.

Referring to your partner as "the anything" is only one step away from referring to them as "it", in my view. Thankfully I haven't heard that reference in quite some time, as attitudes evolve.

[elanjacobs]

Using plural probably wasn't the best idea to illustrate it. "How's the little boy/girl" for young kids I don't think is that uncommon, I would even say "how's the boy/lad" is common enough.

Either way, I still don't think anyone actually uses "The XXXXX" as an intentionally derogatory term, it's a colloquialism that has become part of normal language.

[FenceFurniture]

Oh man, just when I thought there was some light falling....
I wouldn't introduce my wife at a dinner party and refer to her as the missus (not that I ever go to dinner parties)
But if I was down the local pub and said I better get going, the missus is waiting to borrow the car to go do some shopping, then I don't see a problem with that either and I'd like to think most Australians wouldn't.The Boss is a title, your wife is a person. Get it?

So assuming that you still have your "pair", what do you think would happen to them if you did introduce your wife, at a dinner party, as "the wife"? Even if you slipped her personal label in there like "This is the wife, Anna". :think: Go on, I triple dare ya to!

My point being that if it is not good enough to do in front of her, then it is not acceptable in any situation. Would you expect to get a razz from the pub boys for substituting "my wife" for "the missus"? They wouldn't even notice.

Don't be afraid to show respect (especially for women) in front of those who may not. It's actually a VERY manly thing to do.

[FenceFurniture]

Either way, I still don't think anyone actually uses "The XXXXX" as an intentionally derogatory term, it's a colloquialism that has become part of normal language.Ah well this I think strikes at the very core of the problem. Goebbels used to say that if you repeat the lie often enough it becomes truth. That is to say that I agree that it is not intentionally derogatory but it has become normalised and that is a bad thing.

Crikey, I know a guy that introduced his fourth wife to us as his "current wife". Humorous it may be to us, but how did it really make her feel (even though she smiled at this same old tired old joke).

[Bushmiller]

:D

And I get into trouble for digressions :rolleyes: .

However, since council for the prosecution has introduced the subject I do have a friend who maintains he introduces his other half by saying "Have you met my first wife?" Which he maintains is to keep her on her toes, but I have not heard this first hand.

Talking of halves, it has been explained to me, primarily by women, that my wife may lean more towards five eighths which leaves me at three......Ummm... Moving on to the SWMBO moniker, SWMBO absolutely hates that term, but I have always seen it as an accolade to the veteran Aussie actor Leo McKern who portrayed the demon lawyer "Rumpole." Rumpole was a man who made seasoned QCs quake in their boots in the courtroom, but at home his wife was king, emperor and dictator all rolled into one. Interestingly we never met her. Perhaps she was too much for audiences of the day.

Ok, lunch break is over, my foray into the digression is over and a stack of rough timber awaits my undivided attention. And one more thing, if you are interested in my back saws in the Marketplace, you're too late. Theys gorne. :cool:

Regards
Paul

edit:
PS. I have just seen FF's reference to a fourth wife which significantly detracts from my "first wife" story. I must learn to type faster. However, in a feeble attempt to regain some standing, I did once meet a guy who had been married seven times. That was impressive, but I was floored when he told me three of them was to the same woman!!! He added that she was on at him to get married for a fourth time to her. I suppose this just gives weight to the old maxim that some people never learn.

[Dibbers]

Ummm..... to potentially answer the OPs question, maybe they don't make the calendars anymore because the cost to produce outweighed the benefit as a form of advertising??? Or that with the technology available today, the need for calendars has waned significantly? I remember Mum used to get one from the butcher, the fruit shop and the bakery.... all the photos were usually generic cityscape photos of Sydney (no scantily clad men or women) but she doesn't get them anymore... most people use their phone... if you don't like using your phone, thats totally fine, but you market to the majority of your customer base to keep advertising costs down... ergo, no more physical calendars, and more annoying internet pop up ads...

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole with the whole feminism, Modern Feminism, how i introduce my wife/the wife/the missus... then answer might really just be a simple one whether it supports or opposes your view on the world...

[Ausworkshop]

This is the reason I would never take my wife to a dinner party today. I wouldn't know how to act in this modern world of stuck up snobs and would be afraid to get pulled aside and served a lecture about the correct way a friggin woodworker should act in Australia today.

Yet another reason why I love being my own boss, and if I ever do have a dinner party I'll scroll back through here before deciding to invite from this forum :) I wouldn't want people to see my calendar and spend the whole night discussing the correct way woodworkers should evolve in to real men. I'd rather they had some fun at my dinner party instead of arguing. These days it's getting harder and harder to do.

[Ausworkshop]

The Boss is a title, your wife is a person. Get it?

I think so, but obviously you think I'm a thick moron who doesn't understand. And who feels the need to talk down to me and educate me about the correct way to introduce my wife. But this is all good, I'm not having a go at you personally, this is all just confirming what I had thought. You can't bring up topics like this anymore without people ending up putting them selves above others, talking down to them, assuming they are uneducated etc, acting like we all have to live up to their standards. Even acting like we have to live up to the standards of this forum, like it's some high and mighty religion to be a woodworker in society today and we all have to fall in to line.

It's not just in woodworking it's everywhere. Have a look at some of the Off-Grid facebook pages with people breaking out in arguments for example about whether or not your way of living is truly 'off-grid' in their eyes. It's like you have to earn the right to use the word or something, and you have to earn that right from THEM and THEM only because all other opinions are wrong and it's now my job to educate you about the correct way of thinking..
I think I might stop calling myself a woodworker.
I wouldn't want to embarrass you all and create a stereotype that we are all living in the dark ages and refuse to change. And we all disrespect our women because we don't understand how to use the word 'The' or we make a funny joke that really should no longer be made according to them.