Dovetail saw; which one?

[Hailey83]

So im currently in the market for a decent dovetail saw and im hoping to get some recommendations.

My issue is;

I love the look of the lie neilson saw. But theyre out of my price range.

The veritas saw is in my price range, but i personally think its quite unappealing aesthetically. Which means i probably just wouldnt use it.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[rob streeper]

Hi Hailey,

The commercially available dovetail saws are all fairly expensive and the Lee Valley is probably the best value for the money. In the alternative you could make your own.

The materials in a dovetail saw cost out at under $20, even if you buy new ready to use parts. Some Aus based members sell kits. There are also saw making classes periodically that include materials and instruction.

If you buy a kit you've got to assemble it. The most difficult parts of the assembly process are slotting the handle, setting the screws and toothing the blade.

A workaround is to buy a used or antique saw and fix it up. The ideal saw to find is one that is being sold cheap because of a wave in the toothline. Correcting the wave is easy.

Next most difficult is replacing the blade on an otherwise sound saw. The steel is cheap and you can find toothed blades. Replacing the back of a saw with damage is also pretty easy.

Fitting a new handle to a saw with a bad one is probably the most difficult route.

Nonetheless it's all eminently doable and there are a number of members here who've made saws, just ask.

Cheers,
Rob

[Mr Brush]

First question - conventional western or Japanese saw?

I have the Veritas dovetail saws and like them, but also enjoy using fine kerf Japanese saws for dovetail work; tend to flit from one to the other.

[Hailey83]

Im looking at western as i like the idea of using for a long time vs throw away blades

[Mr Brush]

Hmmm....I've used both types for many years, and have yet to sharpen any of them. I get where you're coming from though.

You might find Derek's article on the Veritas saws interesting - he touches on many other issues common to all dovetail saws.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw.html

I have both the 14tpi and 20tpi Veritas dovetail saws, but for stock thicker than about 10-12mm, I find the 14 tpi is the pick of the two. Note how the Veritas saws can be disassembled; the blade is great, so another option is to shape your own handle to suit? Veritas even provide detailed instructions on how to do this

http://www.leevalley.com/us/html/16j4010i.pdf

One useful (and fairly cheap) Japanese saw which I still find fantastic for fine work is a small ultra-fine kerf version from Carbatec

https://www.carbatec.com.au/handtools-and-handplanes/japanese-saws/japanese-wood-saws/japanese-fine-dozuki-h-150-blade-no-z-7013

This thing has a kerf about the same thickness as a fine pencil line (0.3mm). I'm still on the original blade, and it isn't missing any teeth !

[Mr Brush]

Another comparison LV to LN

Veritas Dovetail Saw @ Cornish Workshop (http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/dovetailsaw.html)

When you see the two side by side, it's surprising how similar the handle shapes/sizes and hang of the two saws are.

No measurable difference in performance or usability, and for someone just starting out the LV is perfectly fine as a user saw. How many extra $$$ do do want to spend on "pretty" ? :rolleyes:

I bought the LV as a beginner dovetail saw, thinking I'd treat myself to something better when my skill level could justify the extra spend. Maybe something like

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-DSAW9.XX/The_Gramercy_Tools_9%22_Dovetail_Saw

Years later, the Veritas saws still do everything I could ask of them, and I never bothered to upgrade......

[Hailey83]

Thanks everyone. The reads were very interesting. Perhaps i just need to have a bit more of a go with the veritas, even if it ends up being the 'for now' saw.

[derekcohen]

So im currently in the market for a decent dovetail saw and im hoping to get some recommendations.

My issue is;

I love the look of the lie neilson saw. But theyre out of my price range.

The veritas saw is in my price range, but i personally think its quite unappealing aesthetically. Which means i probably just wouldnt use it.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

I think that you have 4 options:

1. Purchase the LV saw as it is the best value-for-money on this planet for a Western dovetail saw. Nothing comes close at the price. Yes, the looks are not my favourite either but, hot damn, the performance is up there with the best. And at the end of the day you want performance.

Note that the composite back of this saw makes it lighter. That is a Good Thing for those starting out - it lightens the downforce. Also, the 14 degree rake creates a softer and easier starting saw cut, which is hugely desirable.

2. Bite the bullet and pay the bucks for a LN. I have and love the LN. In fact, I also have the IT, which became the LN. I like the looks, I like the performance (although years have gone by and I have resharpened the plate a few times, so it is not strictly the same saw any longer).

The brass back of this saw adds weight (as does all the saws of a similar style/build). It is important when cutting dovetails that you take the weight off the blade. Too much downforce causes a saw to bind and saw off line. The other factor, one that of especial note, is that the teeth have about 4 degrees of rake or less (mine came with 0 degrees). This makes the LN saw much harder to start and to cut very aggressively. Personally, I like the aggressiveness, and I am experienced enough to know how to lighten the downforce. In the end, however, I see the LN dovetail saw as better for an experienced sawyer than one starting out. The Veritas is a better saw for one starting out.

3. Buy a kit with a ready-filed and set plate and add your own handle. Rob Streeper (in this thread) makes excellent saws and no doubt could supply you with the metal parts, possibly for a similar amount as the Veritas saw. Making a handle is not difficult - hey, we are woodworkers! - and it would give you a saw to treasure. I began replacing handles on crappy 50's saws many years ago (before the boutique saws were available).

4. Make your own saw from scratch or restore a vintage saw. This option is not really for a beginner, but it is one nevetheless. It does require many skills that take some time to develop, such as straightening plates, filing and setting teeth. At the end of the day you will need to learn how to file teeth. I would, however, suggest that you begin by just touching up the well-formed and slightly dulling teeth of a decent saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[IanW]

To add my 2c worth to what the others have said, I reckon there is possibly too much emphasis on 'saw quality' when 'user quality' is just as important, if not moreso. No saw will make you an instantly expert sawyer, only time & practice can do that. I'm as guilty as the worst when it comes to fondness for 'nice' tools, and there is little doubt that using a tool that appeals to you aesthetically & ergonomically leads to better work - our brains are wired for the placebo effect, so there's little point in denying it. However, I'm also practical & know that few people have an unlimited tool budget, it's all too easy to pay a lot of money on the basis of someone else's recommendation, & end up with a tool that you don't much like (DAMHIK!). So how do you avoid acquiring white elephants?

There is much to be said for starting with an older, sound & inexpensive tool of any type, & learning the ropes with it. After a while, you have a much better appreciation for what you need from a plane, saw, whatever, not what others think you need. Then you can more confidently direct your precious tool $s to things that are likely to satisfy your needs & wants. Building up a really good kit of tools takes time. I'm still at it 50 plus years after I started serious woodworking, though the rate of new acquistion does slow down a bit as you go along, fortunately. :;

There are lots of old backsaws around, and many are both cheap & potentially excellent saws. With a good cleanup & a decent sharpen you can have a saw every bit as good as one that can cost 10 times more. The metal in an old saw, even a cheapie, is usually just as good as in the most expensive boutique saw you can buy today. All you can ask from a saw is that it cuts efficiently & tracks true - the rest is up to you. If you find the handle is a bit bland and not as comfy as you'd like, it is, as Derek says, a pretty trivial matter to rectify in most cases. Plenty of info on making handles has been posted by myself & others on this & other forums.

The biggest hurdle you face in resurrecting an old saw is the setting & sharpening. Unfortunately, there are few, if any, old-time saw sharpeners left in the commercial world, so you either have to search around for someone competent (through a woody group, for e.g.), or learn to do it yourself. The latter is a good way to go if you can get some instruction & help in the beginning, but a tall order if you are on your own. It's not technically difficult, but it does take a while to programme the muscles & brain to cooperate on the task, and having someone guide you is a huge help. However, if you are the determined type it's far and away the best route to follow. Being able to sharpen your own saws is a real boon. Not only can you keep your saws in top condition, you can play around with rake angles and other factors to make your saws perform the way you prefer. Learning to sharpen on an old, inexpensive saw is the smart thing to do - you have little to lose. I'm frequently amazed that folks who wouldn't tolerate a blunt plane or chisel for an instant put up with saws that are so dull they wear the wood away rather than cut it! It's been said by someone else, and I agree, that even a not-so-well-sharpened saw is better than a dull one.....

Cheers,

[RayG]

There's good advice in this thread already, I have a personal preference for vintage tools, there's plenty of good quality second saws out there. If you can get to a tool sale you will probably find something to suit the budget.

The Traditional Tools Group (Inc.) -- TTTG Annual Tool Sale (http://www.tttg.org.au/php/ToolSale.php)

If you were in Melbourne I'd recommend the htpaa tool sale Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. - Tool Sales (http://www.htpaa.org.au/events/tool-sales)

Check for a straight blade by sighting along the tooth line, try and get one that feels comfortable in your hand, people have different sized hands and you want it to feel right.


PS. I just remembered, that the Sydney TTTG group conduct periodic saw sharpening classes.

[Bendigo Bob]

Hi Hailey,

I'll throw my 'part time woodie' two bobs worth in too. I bought the two Veritas saws myself for dovetailing. I don't do a lot of work, but wow, I'm impressed by how good they are for the money I paid.

Yes, we'd all love to get a Rob Cosman, or this or that, but those Veritas saws really are pretty cool looking and you will never be afraid to use them at $125 each. They'll grow old with you :)

[Hailey83]

I'll definitely be checking out the sydney tttg sale.

Cheers

[Hailey83]

I am considering the veritas saws now after all the info ive been given. And i like the idea of making my own, thanks derek, but i think that will be a year or two away.

Cheers

Hailey

[Bushmiller]

Hailey

I have used a Lie Neilsen saw once when in fact I was delivering a customer's saw. The LN was truly amazing. Personally, I agree with your initial comment on the Veritas saw: Unappealing is an ultimate euphemism! What were they thinking? But it is relatively cheap.

I would hold out for a vintage version. To enjoy using something, you have to like it.

Regards
Paul

[DomAU]

Hi Hailey,

Budget is important. But if it's a soft budget based on priority, rather than a hard budget based on finances, then I think you would be very happy with the LN :) and you'll probably end up buying one in the end anyway if you already have your heart somewhat set on it and don't love the Veritas. So maybe wait a little and buy your last tool first; it might be cheaper in the long run.

I have the LN Tapered thin plate dovetail saw and really love it
I also have a couple of more expensive dovetail saws, and other than looks, don't think they are any better than the LN. I love that little saw.

Gotta do what's right for you. Certainly not worth getting into any financial distress for a tool. It seems that the Veritas is widely regarded as a great saw functionally, if not emotionally inspiring.

Cheers, Dom

[Twisted Tenon]

Hi Hailey83
I can’t add anything to the advice above than to ask if you have picked up and handled a Veritas saw? I have a couple “old school” dovetail saws and the “feel” of the Veritas is fantastic. There is a real bang for your buck with them.

TT

[Luke Maddux]

Before commenting, I'd just like to say that I agree with the above sentiment that getting an old one, learning to sharpen it, and trying it out is your best bet if budget is a concern. If you spend $60 on a saw and some sharpening gear instead of whatever a LN saw costs, just think of all the wood you could buy to destroy with the saw?

But if you absolutely must buy one of the two mentioned, I'd, personally, save up my money and go with the LN. I owned the Veritas and I didn't care for it. Not only do I really not like the aesthetic, It's a super fine pitch and I found that it was more likely to bind than other saws. Granted it was my first dovetail saw, so there could be some user error biasing that comment, but it was just my experience.

The LN saw has the pitch which I currently use on my dovetail saw, which is 15tpi, and I think that is a much better toothing for all but the thinnest board stock. I want to be able to cut one side of a dovetail in about three to five good strokes in drawer-thickness material, and this one will do it. I got a really good deal on the LN saw, so I bought it, literally, just to try it out. I ultimately gifted it, but, if I hadn't, I would still be using it.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Luke

[derekcohen]

Luke, although I also suggested buying and restoring a vintage saw, it was low on my list of options. The problem here lies with needing to learn to sharpen a saw. It is no big deal once you have sharpened a couple, however it is a very off-putting factor until one has reached that point. For someone starting out, buying a saw that is ready-to-go is the better decision, especially when there is a Veritas available.

In case you missed this, I own and like the LN. But it is a very different kettle of fish to the Veritas, and really better for someone with experience in sawing dovetails. The LN is more aggressive than the Veritas and will saw faster. This is due to the rake angle of the teeth. On the other hand, the Veritas starts more easily.

By "super fine pitch" it sounds like you had the 20 tpi Veritas. Understandably, this will cut much slower than a 15 tpi LN. If so, you are not comparing apples with apples.

I found that the Veritas was apt to bind on hardwood. This was simply a matter of too little set. Not all the Veritas saws are like this. The fix is simple - add more set. The saw then cuts smoothly. I would not expect this to be a feature of all the saws sold.

My bottom line is that I really like the LN, but I am wary of recommending it for a beginner. I believe that someone starting out will progress faster with the Veritas.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

I have two LN back saws -- a cross-cut carcass plus a dovetail. Both saws date from just after Pete Tarrant sold Independence Saws to Tom Lie Nielsen.

I also have two Veritas carcass saws -- cross cut and rip -- plus two super premium saws from Mike Wenzloff.

What I particularly like about the LN saws is their hang angle.
However, I find that I am using the Veritas saws as much as I am using the LN versions. In my fleet of saws -- the Veritas hold their own against LN and Mike Wenzloff and at a fraction of the price they are IMO a "no brainer".


If the OP is looking at new western style back saws -- and is budget limited -- they would need to have a much better reason than "looks" to not buy a Veritas saw.

[Mr Brush]

OK - problem solved. Buy the 14tpi Veritas dovetail saw. Carefully mask off the blade with tape, and temporarily unscrew and remove the handle. Apply Rub 'n Buff to the black composite spine of the saw (your choice of colour, e.g. several different golds, or maybe even Spanish Copper for that retro look?)

Rub 'n Buff : Metallic Finishes : Mixed Media (http://www.amaco.com/t/mixed-media/metallic-finishes/rub-n-buff)

Result? A low cost, high quality dovetail saw with bling and attitude......:2tsup:

[Hailey83]

Well, the info here has been amazing. There are definitely options. To be honest, i like the idea of finding a quality old saw and refurbishing it, after all thats how ive collected most of my hand planes.

Thanks to everyone for your help and advise, more than i anticipated, but very welcome. I can happily say i have learned quite a bit in the last few days.

Cheers

Hailey

[Jimbobtwoshoes]

I have recently purchased the Veritas Dovetail saw as my first dovetail saw and am finding it great to use, yes It doesn't have the same look to it as the LN or Rob Cosman or other dovetail saws but it feels fantastic in my hand to use. I found the best price for it was from https://www.thewoodworks.com.au/.
Just my 2 cents. :)