Learning from your own dangerous mistakes, then showing others

[Pearo]

I just spotted this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wJQn_UGAKY and it got me thinking. Before I start, lets not turn this into a anti/pro sawstop thing, just forget the machine is a sawstop. Clearly the guy did something that injured him, and clearly he has tried to identify what he did wrong. He has analysed what happened and posted a video to the public.

In the aviation world these days, its drilled into you that mistakes should be made public so others can learn. Its a great attitude, and it takes a lot to fess up and say you cocked up something no matter how minor it is, but you do it. After a while, it becomes a great talking point, no one bags you but they instead put forward ideas to help you not to make the same mistake again.

As the guy in the video suggests, in cabinet shops you are an 'amateur' if you use a blade guard. That mentality helps no one, and this attitude is intrinsic in most trades. I applaud people that fess up to their own mistakes, and I have an even greater respect for those that go on to tell that publicly. We can all learn from this.

[elanjacobs]

Yep, if you know the "why" behind the "what" it's much easier to stop it happening again

[BobL]

Its not only dangerous mistakes - its any mistakes.

When I attended the guitar making class in Melbourne the teacher was fantastic.
If you cocked up and reported it he praised your for reporting and then we all gathered around to discuss ways of fixing it.
The teacher would then show us how to fix each mistakes and we carried on.
I reckon we learned as much from fixing these mistakes as the not-mistake successes.

[woodPixel]

My daughter's boyfriend was in emergency today (acid burn). Next to him was a guy who had cut his right index finger OFF on his bandsaw.

Shame hospitals don't have good stats on these kind of things.

[woodPixel]

I was surprised by the extent of his injury to that thumb. I felt the SS would be less, but then again... He still has a thumb.... 😁

[truckjohn]

No doubt the number of horrific injuries on saws have gone down with Saw Stop... As you guys observe - without saw stop, the fellow may be missing a hand...

The crazy thing is, though... I have this suspicion that the total number of injuries may well have gone up... Because people become complacent when the technology is there to save them from themselves. And that's a very dangerous place to be...

Once upon a time - I listened to a guest lecturer who spoke about product safety and consumer complacency... They have studied this...

The fellow was making lighthearted conversation - but made a point that every time we have introduced some new world saving safety system - the number of accidents and injuries related to the thing in question goes UP, not down... And it's because people feel safe and get lazy... They quit paying attention to everything around and end up getting themselves hurt bad in new, creative, and stupid ways....

The old saying applies: The danger with "Idiot proofing" things is that there's always a better idiot...

[Robson Valley]

Had long term use of a very large 12" contractor's table saw.
Magnificent piece of machinery to finish a couple of downstairs rooms.
Needed to rip a short length of 2x4, don't remember why.

I was standing directly behind the wood, the feed was OK.
Then the saw decided to throw that piece of wood straight back at gonad-height.

[BobL]

The crazy thing is, though... I have this suspicion that the total number of injuries may well have gone up... Because people become complacent when the technology is there to save them from themselves. And that's a very dangerous place to be...

Safety belts in cars are a good example of this. When first introduced some people thought they could work miracles (like stop the car) and drove accordingly. So although the belts save lives the number of injuries increased. It was not until cars themselves were made safer and many road safe campaigns in the media etc that injures started to come down again. Air bags are another example of this. One thing that worries me is the endless TV programs that show car crashes where the driver or pedestrian does not get hurt or is only slightly injured. I reckon they need to show an equal number where people are killed and injured.

Back to tools and machinery. Apart from the general growth in population, another reason for greater injuries is the cost of purchase. Machines and tools are now so cheap that folks who in the past would never have dreamed of buying as many machines and tool as they do now. Many tools are bought and then rarely used. More tools used by DIYer infrequently and who have little or no understanding of their use and safety is a good recipe for what has happened. in a survey done in the 1990's in Victoria of DIYer's with injuries presenting themselves at hospital casualty, only 10% were using ANY PPE at the time of the incident - even PPE that was not related to the injury. ie using an angle grinder and got something in their eye (so they weren't wearing eye protection) but they were't wearing muffs either.

Manufacturers have increased the amount of safety info in machine and tool manuals but we know these are probably hardly ever looked at, let alone studied. Recently I have been studying some of these manuals to see if anything is left out. Obviously manuals cannot cover all the creative injury possibilities and one might think many of these are common sense but I wonder if the more the manufacturers put into manuals the less likely they are to be looked at. The other day I purchased a hedge trimmer, the manual is 336 pages long in 14 languages. The 31 page english section has 6 pages of WARNINGS specific to the trimmer and 3 pages of general safety info. All very important and clearly designed to cover heir legal but I do wonder how effective it is to the consumer.


Shame hospitals don't have good stats on these kind of things.
I agree but hospitals are badly stretched in terms of people and $$ and simply cannot afford to do this. Perhaps other OHS authorities like WorkSafe that should be doing this. Trouble is they are usually proactive and nobody appears to have a responsibility for consumers/DIY accidents.

[A Duke]

Hi,
Another old saying :- "Every new fool proof device just breeds a new type of fool."
Regards

[paul.aldred1]

I agree but hospitals are badly stretched in terms of people and $$ and simply cannot afford to do this. Perhaps other OHS authorities like WorkSafe that should be doing this. Trouble is they are usually proactive and nobody appears to have a responsibility for consumers/DIY accidents.

Hospitals do capture this information if it's a work related injury via WorkCover claims. The issue is for the average diyer, these are not captured so there's not a full picture of machinery inflicted injuries.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[BobL]

Hospitals do capture this information if it's a work related injury via WorkCover claims. The issue is for the average diyer, these are not captured so there's not a full picture of machinery inflicted injuries.

Yes unfortunately despite the longer periods of time per week spend on tools by pros, DIY injuries represent most of the injuries so work cover stats are quite limited. The only survey I know of that covered both DIY and work related injuries back in the 1990s showed about a 3:1 ratio.

[tonzeyd]

stats are only as useful as their intended purpose (and collection methodology) for collecting the data in the first place, obviously knowing the intent can determine any bias/prejudice/agenda. However on the other hand even if these stats were produced i wonder how useful they would be? considering the average DIYer who didn't do their own due diligence/training with their machinery probably won't care/bother looking for the stats either.

[John.G]

Saws are dangerous but they are only dangerous in the way that guns or knives are dangerous: I have never heard of a saw that jumped up and bit anyone all by itself. Rather it's always operator error.

In about 5 months last year I ran more or less 60,000 linear meters through a table saw. Do my regular 12 hours in the mill, and then turn on the lights and just feed wood into it for another couple hours several times a week. Objectively that is more than many woodworkers will probably do in a lifetime, done mostly in autopilot mode.

in that there was once when I woke up and thought "another inch and it's going to eat the end off my thumb" Went home for a sleep shortly thereafter.

My point is that even the experienced among us have close shaves sometimes through fatigue or carelessness, and theres plenty bench hands around with a thumb or a couple fingers short.

Human nature is to say "the saw bit me". In truth we all need to say " I stuffed up and put myself where it could

[bueller]

Definitely some complacency on his part but glad he posted the video. It does make me wonder if he would have been so careless if he didn’t have a SawStop though, I know I’m always very conscious of what I’m doing clearing off cuts and will always use a second push stick for this purpose. Then again I’m pretty new to this stuff and still have a healthy dose of fear for what my machines are capable of when misused.

[Mr Brush]

Good on the guy for putting the video up on YouTube. It helps to make all of us a bit safer in our workshops.

As an aside, I didn't like the look of his very tall, thin pushstick. You can see how unstable and wobbly it is when he is demonstrating it. I'd rather have a 1" thick pushstick to hold everything nice and stable, and I'm not so precious about a pushstick that I mind the blade cutting into it a little when ripping thinner strips. Alternatively I highly recommend a GRR-Ripper, which holds both the cut piece between blade and fence, and also the offcut, very securely.

Funny, but I regard the bandsaw as one of the safer machines in my shop. The blade is pushing the stock down onto the table (so most kickback and flying stock issues don't apply), and you really just have to remember one golden rule when using the bandsaw. Never, ever push or have any part of your hand(s) in line with the blade at any time. Despite this, I think I know of more people having bandsaw accidents than tablesaw accidents??

[BobL]

Funny, but I regard the bandsaw as one of the safer machines in my shop. The blade is pushing the stock down onto the table (so most kickback and flying stock issues don't apply), and you really just have to remember one golden rule when using the bandsaw. Never, ever push or have any part of your hand(s) in line with the blade at any time. Despite this, I think I know of more people having bandsaw accidents than tablesaw accidents??

Bandsaws have ~4X the number of accidents per hour of use compared to TS.
The rate is almost the same as for RAS.
Jointer planers are nearly double the rat for BS and RAS

TS are typically used for about 15X longer by users than bandsaws before users have their first accident,
BS saws are used for 4X longer than RAS before a first accident.
Jointer planers are between BS and RAS in terms of hours of use before first accident.

The TS versus BS stats I think show that in most cases the teeth on a TS look much nastier than those on a BS, and TSs makes more noise.
Folks that don't know think the BS is only going to cause a bit of a scratch don't realise they will take your fingers off quicker than you can say DOH!

[John.G]

The two machines that scare me - the ones that I know are most likely to hurt me (as opposed to bite me) are spindle moulders and radial arm saws. In both cases its about flying debris.

The thing with any accident analysis statistic is not just which machines cause the most injuries... but which machines cause the most injuries that are severe. If it grows back - its an accident but mostly not what I'd consider severe. Over the years I've heard of plenty of accidents involving jointers - but most of those are top or side of digit type injuries. Permanant scaring in many cases or a chunk that never grows back - but its not like circular/band/ radial arm injuries that often tend to not so much be about how much finger you lost as they are about how many.

I've got two working radial arms and both of them make me lose sleep at night sometimes because I know that statistically they are going to be the most likely cause of a severe accident in my equipment. It is very difficult to guard a RAS effectively without losing function. OHS frown on them, and by rights I need to remove the one in the green mill and put in a pop up docker in order to stay compliant with the guidelines. The issue is money - and while I too believe that the cost of a saw is cheaper then the cost of a hand - that only way to make that chunk of change available to replace the existing is to use the existing until the chunk of change is made to replace it. Rather like the sawstop technology its fine for some OHS/workcover weenie on the government shekel to come along and tell me I need to buy new stuff, but money dont appear in my pocket by magic at the end of the week unless the gear that was perfectly fine for 40 years when operated with care was turned on too.



430824

[BobL]

The two machines that scare me - the ones that I know are most likely to hurt me (as opposed to bite me) are spindle moulders and radial arm saws.

At the mens shed I managed to get the supervisors to disconnect both spindle moulders on the two combo machines we had. We ended up completely getting rid of machine and I initially hid teh spindle and all the cutters till we disconnected it. We also had two RAS and I convinced them to sell one but I could not get them to get rid of the other. It was for the silliest reason, which was the donor could come into the shed at any time and might ask where it was??? The main thing that worried me about this saw was the way it coasted for some 2+ min after it was turned off and for most of that time is was dead quiet! I ended up putting a VFD and a brake that stops it in 4 seconds. Now that prob has been solved the issue JohnG raises about them still bothers me. I don't go into the shed that often and when I do I say away from the end of the shed where the RAS is located.

[Jeffen]

Yeah, I don't get this, when I bought my bandsaw I had never used one before, but it seemed pretty obvious that with a fairly slow feed rate
all I had to do was keep my right hand behind the blade, and use a push stick for the last inch of feed.
The push stick is tied to the bandsaw so I do not have an excuse not to use it.

I exclude from these comments those that cut 3d reindeer with a 1/8" blade in 30 seconds...

Still, how do you hurt yourself with a bandsaw?

EDIT: admittedly a hobbiest, not someone that uses one for a living.

Bandsaws have ~4X the number of accidents per hour of use compared to TS.
The rate is almost the same as for RAS.
Jointer planers are nearly double the rat for BS and RAS

TS are typically used for about 15X longer by users than bandsaws before users have their first accident,
BS saws are used for 4X longer than RAS before a first accident.
Jointer planers are between BS and RAS in terms of hours of use before first accident.

The TS versus BS stats I think show that in most cases the teeth on a TS look much nastier than those on a BS, and TSs makes more noise.
Folks that don't know think the BS is only going to cause a bit of a scratch don't realise they will take your fingers off quicker than you can say DOH!

[Kuffy]

Still, how do you hurt yourself with a bandsaw?



Inexperience or tunnel vision.
Tunnel vision. People focus on their cut line and the point of impact of the blade. They forget all about their thumbs until the pain comes.

Inexperience. When resawing timbers with a few stresses in the board, the board can often cup as you rip through it. When you have almost completed the cut, you only have a small amount of material still intact at full thickness. The cupping forces are trying to split this remaining web in half, and it often succeeds in doing so. If you are inexperienced, you may feel comfortable to be pushing the timber by hand up to the last few millimetres, not realising the not so obvious and unexpected danger you are putting yourself in. When the remaining web splits, the cutting resistance drops from something to nothing in the heart beat, so you end up shunting your hands forwards directly into the blade.

[John.G]

At the mens shed I managed to get the supervisors to disconnect both spindle moulders on the two combo machines we had. We ended up completely getting rid of machine and I initially hid teh spindle and all the cutters till we disconnected it. We also had two RAS and I convinced them to sell one but I could not get them to get rid of the other. It was for the silliest reason, which was the donor could come into the shed at any time and might ask where it was??? The main thing that worried me about this saw was the way it coasted for some 2+ min after it was turned off and for most of that time is was dead quiet! I ended up putting a VFD and a brake that stops it in 4 seconds. Now that prob has been solved the issue JohnG raises about them still bothers me. I don't go into the shed that often and when I do I say away from the end of the shed where the RAS is located.

Yeah but...

I get the concerns about both these machines particularly in that type of environment where there can be a wide gulf between operators perceived skill level and operators actual skill level. If you cant control who uses the things and have no real way to ascertain if the people using them should be using them then they would give me cause for concern too.

However, both of them are very very handy bits of kit in the right hands and both of them are capable of achieving things that other machines can't. A RAS is the most versatile saw of them all because of the range of movement available. And a spindle moulder is the perfect machine when you want to match a wainscott moulding for some heritage job or decide you need new casement windows. It would be very hard to replace them unless you can afford a large 5 axis milling machine which most of us can't.

So while I get the safety concerns about them from a liability viewpoint, part of me totally hates the idea that you are forcibly dumbing down the guys who can use them safely and limiting the scope of what they could achieve because of the idiot factor. That just plain sucks.

[Jeffen]

I guess the size of a bandsaw also plays a big part here, with the generic 14" bandsaw you can hook a thumb over the leading edge of the table, whereas this isn't possible with a larger machine.

I'm lucky in that I am risk adverse, not everyone is.


Inexperience or tunnel vision.
Tunnel vision. People focus on their cut line and the point of impact of the blade. They forget all about their thumbs until the pain comes.

Inexperience. When resawing timbers with a few stresses in the board, the board can often cup as you rip through it. When you have almost completed the cut, you only have a small amount of material still intact at full thickness. The cupping forces are trying to split this remaining web in half, and it often succeeds in doing so. If you are inexperienced, you may feel comfortable to be pushing the timber by hand up to the last few millimetres, not realising the not so obvious and unexpected danger you are putting yourself in. When the remaining web splits, the cutting resistance drops from something to nothing in the heart beat, so you end up shunting your hands forwards directly into the blade.

[Mobyturns]

Yeah but...

I get the concerns about both these machines particularly in that type of environment where there can be a wide gulf between operators perceived skill level and operators actual skill level. If you cant control who uses the things and have no real way to ascertain if the people using them should be using them then they would give me cause for concern too.

However, both of them are very very handy bits of kit in the right hands and both of them are capable of achieving things that other machines can't. A RAS is the most versatile saw of them all because of the range of movement available. And a spindle moulder is the perfect machine when you want to match a wainscott moulding for some heritage job or decide you need new casement windows. It would be very hard to replace them unless you can afford a large 5 axis milling machine which most of us can't.

So while I get the safety concerns about them from a liability viewpoint, part of me totally hates the idea that you are forcibly dumbing down the guys who can use them safely and limiting the scope of what they could achieve because of the idiot factor. That just plain sucks.

You hit the nail on the head!

The idiot factor


The wide gulf between operators perceived skill level and operators actual skill level

you cant control who uses the things

no real way to ascertain if the people using them should be using them


&


I could not get them to get rid of the other. It was for the silliest reason, which was the donor could come into the shed at any time and might ask where it was.


are the reasons why many experienced, competent and knowledgeable volunteers walk away from Men's Sheds and clubs.

Generally the membership and committee's will unknowingly take on huge risk or place their volunteer "workers" in untenable situations all because they "don't want to upset someone" or for some other lame logic, such as perceived discrimination (not permitting an individual member to use a machine etc).

Volunteers & workshop supervisors in clubs are performing "work" on behalf off / for the club (undertaking) so are considered "workers" under workplace safety legislation in Australia, and as "workers" they have obligations under the legislation and regulations. That precedent was established in the Townsville Gymnastics Club fatality.

[BobL]

The statistics show that so called pros have nothing to crow about in terms of accident rates.
The following cover all injuries - even minor ones like scratches and bruises

For all machines and tools surveyed (apart from RAS, jointers, and hammers) a smaller % of amateurs have accidents that pros.
eg ~20% of amateurs report some sort of injury (even minor) from using a TS, whereas for Pros it's 30%!

For jointers, RAS and hammers the two groups have the same % of accident, only for drill presses do amateurs have slightly more % of accidents.

This of course reflects the much greater exposure of pros to tools and machines, this and probably over confidence seems to make up for experience and skill.

My experience with former tradies and builders etc at the mens shed is that they are at times over confident, and are just as likely to not use things like PPE, push sticks (they are apparently for sissies) or machine guards, as members with no experience with tools and machines. The also roll out the usual claim of "I have XX years of experience in using this machine" as an excuse as to why they should be allowed to get away with it.

One new member who was a former carpenter/builder got his nose quiet out of joint when I (as a supervisor) handed him some muffs while he was using a very noisy thicknesser. A few months later he quietly conceded to me that OHS in the shed was somewhat lacking.

A member who was a builder for 30 years has significant hearing loss and loves to use a TS. Not long after he started at the shed he said to me, "I don't need to wear muffs because I just turn off my hearing aid". At first I thought he was joking but he was serious - fortunately he has the sense to under stand that he should be using the best muffs in the shed to protect what little hearing he had and now he does that.

Given that these members act as mentors to less experienced members, this has always worried me and is why I no longer supervise,

While amateurs have much lower exposure and skills, they also appear on average to be more cautious, which itself can lead to problems.

[Mobyturns]

Getting back to the learnings from his incident, I have a few reservations about his review of the controls he had in place ( i.e. the narrow vertical push stick) and his recommended solutions or changes to the controls he had in place, i.e. still using the same narrow vertical push stick plus another push stick for his left hand.

Using push sticks to keep hands away from the blade is a highly regarded safety control for cuts being made without the saw blade guard in place. However the push stick placed on top of the work piece should be wide enough to be stable and only tall enough to keep hands clear of the blade.

The push stick used in this video clip I consider to be a poor choice of design for the task at hand for a few reasons,



it is unstable as it has a very narrow foot print, is tall, and is not well supported against the fence.
that instability means it has the potential for it to move laterally forcing the stock against the blade - potential kick back event.
should the stock bow during the cut (relieving internal stress) the operator will tend to force the stock through, which increases the risk of the tall push stick toppling over.
It is a difficult design (leverage) for the operator to maintain control of should it slide laterally into the saw blade.


Using a push stick with a much wider foot print and not so tall will eliminate / minimize much of that risk.

His push stick is quite suitable for narrow rips (3mm or so) but is not suitable for his current task.

I have been using the GRR-Ripper system for many years, since they were first available in Australia in fact. They are relatively expensive but offer an elegant solution with fast adjustment for many of the cuts I make. I still use a lot of sacrificial push sticks and many sleds using toggle clamps etc for the myriad of small pieces I cut on the TS.

[Robson Valley]

Talk to the brave people in OZ whose job it is to milk snakes of venom for the production of antivenin.
Any slip is ever rarely a miss.

[Kuffy]

To be safe around a saw, you have to prevent kickback from occurring and not put your hands close to the blade. Work piece ejection is something different to kickback and a pretty minor event avoided simply by never standing in line with the blade, most of the time you can fight the ejection and win, other times you need to hit the emergency stop (which should be located in a position which can be activated with your knees, not hands because hands are busy). Preventing kickback is discussed a million times on the interwebs things like using riving knives and properly setup fences etc. But what is so poorly discussed is not putting your hands near the blade. People use push blocks, like the grr-ripper which is designed to put your hand directly over the top of the blade. It's just plain bad and should be outlawed. They also force the removal of over head guarding and dust extraction. The claims for push blocks is that you can control short length work pieces "safely". Short length work pieces have a significantly higher chance of kick back than a 6 meter length. If the kickback occurs while your hand is pushing forwards and directly over the blade, the timber gets spat out. Then the push block hits the blade and shoots backwards, basically flipping back up at your wrist. Your forward and downward pressure will now direct your ENTIRE HAND directly on top of the blade.

This is why push "sticks" are actually safe. Sure they can't control short work pieces, which is why you rip long lengths on a table saw and short lengths with a hand saw or band saw. The push stick needs to be long enough to be able to push the last 12" of the work piece through and passed the blade without your hand passing the start of the blade. The push stick popularised by John Heiz on youtube is a terribad stick. The plastic pushsticks often supplied with the machine are the bees knees if they are long enough. remember, you are no longer trying to control the work piece, because the riving knife, fence, and downwards cut of the blade will do that, you simply need to shove it through.

[Mobyturns]

The claims for push blocks is that you can control short length work pieces "safely". Short length work pieces have a significantly higher chance of kick back than a 6 meter length.

This is why push "sticks" are actually safe. Sure they can't control short work pieces, which is why you rip long lengths on a table saw and short lengths with a hand saw or band saw.



To clarify a few things, I use sleds for cross cutting and ripping short pieces / small parts on a TS. The work piece is securely clamped with toggle clamps and the "off cut" is either also securely clamped or the sled designed so that the "off cut" off can fall away so it does not become an ejected item from the saw.

Yes, the GRR-Ripper does have short comings and yes there are other control options, however I believe it is the best solution for some cuts on the TS as the alternatives such as multiple feather boards etc and some sacrificial push block designs do not work in practice for thin rips. It is the users choice to pass the GRR-Ripper over the blade, its not an ideal practice and something that I avoid where ever possible.

Yes, there are limits to what is considered "safe" for any hazard control measure. The hazards in using the GRR-Ripper system are no different to any of the sacrificial push blocks used to feed a work piece through a table saw.

Yes, there are also limits in what is accepted a "safe length" of stock to feed through a TS, jointer, planer etc.

That being said I am not making furniture, so the scale of the projects and materials, parts are significantly scaled down which makes traditional "safe work practices" very difficult to implement in a practical manner. I have considered many alternative methods which also present hazards in machining small items. The TS sleds and work methods that I use are not implemented lightly as I have fully considered the hazards, risks and probability of failure.

A poorly designed push stick still presents hazards.

I'm not sure I understand your distinction between a "work piece ejection" and a "kick back." The same scenarios create both, instability of the work piece, changing internal stresses, binding, movement, poorly set up / aligned fence etc. So is the only difference the force of the "ejection" ????

Still its a good discussion to have, and to consider others thoughts and work methods / processes on the TS.

[Kuffy]

So is the only difference the force of the "ejection" ????



Pretty much Moby. Kickback is where the back of the blade has lifted the work piece from the table and thrown it. Ejection is where the blade simply pushed the timber backwards, often because the operator let go of the material, or wedged it between blade and fence due to binding or poor machine setup. Ejection is always a known flight path, straight backwards. sometimes it flies softly, and other times it flies at 250mph and is a deadly missile, it depends on how much length is behind the blade and how heavy that length is so that the blade has time to accelerate the work piece up to its own blade tip speed.

I do think it is good to define ejection and kickback differently because often the cause of each is different. Ejection is machine setup errors or stresses in the material, and those causes have certain protocols to fix the issues which are not the same as fixing the issue with kickback which is usually a poor operator with an inconsistent feed path (twisting the board away from the fence as you finish the cut) and no riving knife.

[John.G]

I define ejection and kickback differently also.

I'd agree with Bob's definition of ejection which I think covers both the cause and effect of misalignment of workpiece to blade in a cut.

But kickback to me has always been associated with low rim speed where the teeth stop severing fibre and starts to grab at it. This condition has nothing much at all to do with the saw alignment in a cut and is the result of overfeeding/ lack of power. The saw bogs down, the teeth bite... and life gets exciting, far more exciting then an ejection event.... ejection events bang bits of wood into walls, real kickback punches holes out through them.

[AlexS]

Ejection is always a known flight path, straight backwards. sometimes it flies softly, and other times it flies at 250mph and is a deadly missile.
When I was at Sturt, the fibro wall in line with the TS had a considerable number of holes in it, each autographed by the operator whose ejection put it there.

For me, the biggest danger seems to be operating machines when I'm tired. For this reason, I plan my work so that any work on the TS is done in the morning or early afternoon.

I always visualise the cut before I make it, on whatever machine I'm using. There are some things that you just know not to do, but there are things that you don't do very often, and those I think very carefully about.

[Mnb]

I've got an RAS that I use for basically all my cutting. Any crosscut is great because the blade is turning back towards the fence and the wood is supported on both sides so the off cut doesn't move- not often anyway. Ripping is the scary aspect but they generally have a riving knife and anti kickback Pawls - when they were sold anyway. I attached feather boards from the blade guard to hold stuff down and I stay way back with two very long push sticks.

That's why God made them so they pelt you in the face with saw dust when you are ripping - after considering if there is any other alternative and reluctantly deciding to rip there is no way you're not going to wear safety gear because it is good to see and have your mouth clear - plus mine is noisy so ear muffs are necessary - and no way to do it without push sticks since the whole blade is exposed whatever depth you are cutting. Super safe :)

[John.G]

I do a lot of one off's, odd jobs etc with the RAS because it offers a great range of movement that enables me to do pretty much anything that involves straight line cuts under 3" deep and within the pull length of the saw. Previous comments about the safety concerns with them aside, I love the dammed things because of the flexibility they offer.

For one offs I've got a couple home made deep throated clamps that live by the Nolex in the drymill which I use to hold odd workpieces to the bench. Either clamp both sides the piece if theres enough room , or I put a piece of scrap 12mm CDX over the top as a sacrificial then clamp that down. Aint nothing going nowhere while I'm cutting that way.

For repetitive cutting work where I dont need exacting precision - say cutting 100 x 50 x 200 long hardwoods on the diagonal for pipelaying wedges (which we do by the thousand) I build a jig. Basicly take a scrap piece of wood and screw a couple blocks onto it that the workpiece can drop into so they're held firmly enough. Then clamp the jig to the bench. Then use a short push stick to stop the workpiece bouncing up while I cut if required. If the jig is deep enough even that is mostly not required.

[Mobyturns]

According to Kuffy's definitions, I've seen "work piece ejection" events that have put people in hospital with internal injuries, because they stood in the "known path" of the ejection.

I'm not so worried about either on my current projects, using flat and donkey's ear sleds to cut pieces for inlay banding. Nothing much bigger than a match stick, 4mm square and up to 80mm long.

[John.G]

I'm not so worried about either on my current projects, using flat and donkey's ear sleds to cut pieces for inlay banding. Nothing much bigger than a match stick, 4mm square and up to 80mm long.

Now see... that would terrify me. Flesh far too close to the bitey bits for comfort.

[Mobyturns]

Now see... that would terrify me. Flesh far too close to the bitey bits for comfort.

No flesh within at least 150 mm of the saw blade.

All done with cross cut sleds, hold down toggle clamps and sacrificial waste blocks. No push sticks or any manually held items, other than pushing the crosscut sled.

Unguarded saw blade and no riving knife fitted but I do have a Perspex shield on the sled and I use custom Perspex shields that cover the whole sled and saw blade for other ripping sleds etc. In case anyone is "tut tutting" the lack of a riving knife - in this instance no part of the work piece even crosses the saw blade arbor, so the riving knife is redundant and is a hinderance to the sleds design and use.

The cut parts are retrieved when the sled is pulled away from the saw.

For the 4mm square "sticks" I have been able to maintain a consistent +- 0.05 to 0.1 mm tolerance on a 250mm sliding table (i.e. panel saw like) table saw (Woodfast TS250).

The triangles with sides of 4mm are the tricky ones, harder to control the accuracy and to hold down. The total width of the inlay strip is 8mm, so minus 4 x 0.6mm veneers gives 5.6mm for the pattern, which means squares of 4mm and triangles with 4mm sides.

430947

[woodPixel]

No flesh within at least 150 mm of the saw blade.

All done with cross cut sleds, hold down toggle clamps and sacrificial waste blocks. No push sticks or any manually held items, other than pushing the crosscut sled.

Unguarded saw blade and no riving knife fitted but I do have a Perspex shield on the sled and I use custom Perspex shields that cover the whole sled and saw blade for other ripping sleds etc. In case anyone is "tut tutting" the lack of a riving knife - in this instance no part of the work piece even crosses the saw blade arbor, so the riving knife is redundant and is a hinderance to the sleds design and use.

The cut parts are retrieved when the sled is pulled away from the saw.

For the 4mm square "sticks" I have been able to maintain a consistent +- 0.05 to 0.1 mm tolerance on a 250mm sliding table (i.e. panel saw like) table saw (Woodfast TS250).

The triangles with sides of 4mm are the tricky ones, harder to control the accuracy and to hold down. The total width of the inlay strip is 8mm, so minus 4 x 0.6mm veneers gives 5.6mm for the pattern, which means squares of 4mm and triangles with 4mm sides.

Not part of the conversation, but I would like to see a thread on you making some of these..... :D

[Bob38S]

Could someone point me in the right direction for the documented hows and whys for the dangers of the RAS.

Have had a DeWalt built by Tatry since 1980’s, used mainly for straight (at 90 degrees) cross cuts, the RAS is ideal for me if I have to dock off , say 25 bits at a particular length, set the stop block and job us done in minutes. Should I need a few angled cross cuts, I use a false fence angle jig which saves setting and resetting the saw each time. Have used it for ripping with the appropriate, supplied riving knife and anti kickback pawls, very messy and requires plenty of in/outfeed room. Observing the usual practices as I understand them I experienced no issues nor managed to predict any.

These days I’m fortunate enough to also have a table saw which does any ripping I need to do.

[Cal]

Interesting thread, I would like to add a little and it is aside from woodwork. In my workplace our team leader came to us last week to inform us a worker doing the same job as us had an accident last month and was in a coma for 4 weeks and has since died, I asked if the team leader could share with us the cause of the incident and he said he did not have any information on it. This has happed on a number of occasions, a worker is involved in an incident and severely injured or died and nothing is mentioned about what caused the incident or how it could be avoided. I work for a very large organisation and these incidents never make the news. They don’t want the public to know I guess. I’m gobsmacked by the attitude of the company, there is always someone else to do the job once an employee is no longer there to do the job.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[graham.murfett]

That's appalling Cal.
Isn't there a 'Safety committee' in the workplace?
A Safety Committee has to have an employee repesentative as a member.
That employee repesentative is supposed to be available to the employee group, ie what is discussed.
Possible concerns, Incidents, Solutions.
This requirement is in the SA Work Health and Safety Act, plus more
https://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/A/WORK%20HEALTH%20AND%20SAFETY%20ACT%202012/CURRENT/2012.40.AUTH.PDF

[Cal]

I know Graham, very. There is but both were on leave and neither of them would challenge the lack of information. I have to be careful of how I speak about this, policy and all could get me instantly dismissed. There have been instances of discussion but the employee has been at fault in most cases. I have no idea what the organisation is thinking with this last case, it may be under investigation. There was no mention of that either though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[graham.murfett]

Damn, that's hard, and illegal.
Being "at fault in most cases" shouldn't get you killed. :(
Or leave your family with one less member. :(

[Cal]

Yes, very true. I wish I could expand more, I get very frustrated with the job and the safety aspect of it. Unfortunately I am stuck in the vortex for the foreseeable future until I can find an out or it finds me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk